Mike Murray

I agree with the idea of having some type of training for beginning racers. The catch is that practically this is difficult for an organizational body to arrange. Someone needs to develop and staff the program. Then there needs to be a method to enforce taking the training, or at least encouraging that. There is also the issue that any such effort will have an inhibitory effect on new participants. Practically, the way this needs to happen is through clubs and other groups doing instructional sessions. This does occur regularly for track and CX racing. There are efforts at some series races to do the same with variable success. Some teams also offer this service but often teams are composed of a bunch of experienced riders that often don't want newbies in their group.

I think part of this is a real change in focus in bike racing training . In the long ago past the focus was on technique; pace line riding, sprint drills, cornering, etc. Now the focus is on power. Watts rule. There are plenty of examples of very strong fast guys who progressed from beginners to elite quickly without actually learning how to ride a bike. Actually you can watch the TdF and see the same effect. Some of those guys are falling when there really was no reason to fall. The system for assigning ability category only assays results. Power trumps skill in getting results.

A counter argument is a lack of demonstration of the effectiveness of instructional session as an intervention to improve safety. Many velodromes have mandatory classes that are required before you can race. Alpenrose is one of the trickiest tracks to ride and we do not require classes. We don't have more crashes than other velodromes.

Mike Murray
Sent from mobile device

> On Jul 13, 2014, at 7:07, Steve Scarich wrote:
>
> I learned by crashing a lot early on, not a good way to learn. I know this has been discussed before, but I think some kind of training would be good for newbies. I remember when I was District Representative for the beloved USCF, I would ask other riders for input when a rider wanted to upgrade. If I did not know the rider personally, I would ask if the rider knew how to handle their bike.

Troy Sexton

My understanding is that same as Steve�s- unless you are over the age limit, you must pass the course to get your endorsement. There is no way around it, and I think that Team Oregon is the only group that offers the course.

My experience was wholly different from either of yours. Everyone passed. But that could be because I took the one day �advanced course� which still counted to qualify me for the endorsement. It was for people who had some experience already riding a motorcycle. I got my motorcycle permit, and rode around with my father-in-law for a few months before the class, so my on the motorcycle experience definitely was not extensive. The longest ride that I had done was about 40 miles or so at that point.

I think that the instructor quality probably varies greatly. My instructor was patient and helpful with people who weren�t getting the information, and he took the time to make sure that everyone learned, so that everyone passed.

I would suggest retaking at a different location to get a different instructor ( I did mine at PCC Sylvania), and doing the 1 day course if you are comfortable enough on the motorcycle to qualify. If you�ve done the long course, you are probably fine to retake the short one.

On Jul 13, 2014, at 7:07 AM, Steve Scarich wrote:

> Just a clarification. I believe the only people who are not required to take the Team Oregon course (that's the name of the non-profit motorcycle training course) prior to getting their "M' permit are those over 65. After this year, everyone applying for a new 'M' endorsement will be required to take the course. It shows how serious Oregon is about safe motorcycling. I took the course this Spring in Wood Village. I passed and was asked to be an instructor. Three out of 12 flunked with one guy going to the hospital after a bad wreck. My bike-racing experience definitely helped, although I did ride a moto about 40,000 miles back in the 80's. To Steve Brown; I suspect there was more to your flunking than you indicated. I recommend that you contact the instructor again and ask him for an honest assessment. I noticed that my instructors seem to be prejudiced against people who did not change their habits when given tips. I had a couple of bad habits (I didn't cover the brake an
> d clutch levers at all times, because I thought it made me to quick too react). I have learned over the years that it doesn't help to argue with someone who has that kind of authority over you, so I covered the levers then, but immediately stopped after the course.
>
> My takeaway from this is that bike racing could take a page from the Team Oregon course. I raced bikes for 20+ years and it is a dangerous sport. I learned by crashing a lot early on, not a good way to learn. I know this has been discussed before, but I think some kind of training would be good for newbies. I remember when I was District Representative for the beloved USCF, I would ask other riders for input when a rider wanted to upgrade. If I did not know the rider personally, I would ask if the rider knew how to handle their bike. There were a lot fewer riders than, so maybe not practical.
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Steve Scarich

Just a clarification. I believe the only people who are not required to take the Team Oregon course (that's the name of the non-profit motorcycle training course) prior to getting their "M' permit are those over 65. After this year, everyone applying for a new 'M' endorsement will be required to take the course. It shows how serious Oregon is about safe motorcycling. I took the course this Spring in Wood Village. I passed and was asked to be an instructor. Three out of 12 flunked with one guy going to the hospital after a bad wreck. My bike-racing experience definitely helped, although I did ride a moto about 40,000 miles back in the 80's. To Steve Brown; I suspect there was more to your flunking than you indicated. I recommend that you contact the instructor again and ask him for an honest assessment. I noticed that my instructors seem to be prejudiced against people who did not change their habits when given tips. I had a couple of bad habits (I didn't cover the brake an
d clutch levers at all times, because I thought it made me to quick too react). I have learned over the years that it doesn't help to argue with someone who has that kind of authority over you, so I covered the levers then, but immediately stopped after the course.

My takeaway from this is that bike racing could take a page from the Team Oregon course. I raced bikes for 20+ years and it is a dangerous sport. I learned by crashing a lot early on, not a good way to learn. I know this has been discussed before, but I think some kind of training would be good for newbies. I remember when I was District Representative for the beloved USCF, I would ask other riders for input when a rider wanted to upgrade. If I did not know the rider personally, I would ask if the rider knew how to handle their bike. There were a lot fewer riders than, so maybe not practical.

john

Well at least you got to take the class in nice weather :) (When i took
it ~ 7 years ago, it was miserable, raining and cold.)

I do remember going into the class considering myself very good at
cornering on two wheels. Having done many crits and all :) I came out
of the class remembering that wow they really- really emphasized keeping
your head up and turning your head into the corner.

Going around the little training circuit on swan island and practicing
turning, I looked hard into the corner (as they had told us to do) and for
the first few times it was NOT good enough, The instructor was like "Noooo
LOOK / Put your head into THE CORNER ! " Only when I cranked my head 90
degrees and put my chin inline with my shoulder, (I swear I felt like I was
almost looking backwards), that I started getting approval nods... They
couldn't emphasize this enough. At the time I did think it was maybe over
exaggerated, but I also realized they were trying to drive home a point.
But later after bugling a corner or two, I think rightfully so...

I bugled a corner or two after the class, admittedly quite high speed on
germantown, almost went into the ditch on the _other_ side of the road
with thank God no oncoming traffic. I had to get my head and my arms
unlocked (even harder to do when braking and all the muscles are taut)
from straight ahead and back into the corner...

The other thing I remember was a multiple guess question something like :
what causes most motorcycle accidents in corners?
a. high speed
b. deer running into the road
c. not looking into the corner.

The answer was c. of course. I initially thought well high speed surely.
(and obviously at some point of really high speed probably true) But
within reason, if you lean the bike properly by looking properly into the
corner, the bike will stick, no matter the speed.

So anyway, probably super exaggerate your head into the corner and you will
be fine. Pretty sure you can also just take the test with DMV. But really
even after this training it took me a bit more to get comfortable driving
my motorbike. In other words just because I had the class, I did not feel
completely ready..

I did quite a few fun trips, One a trip down to utah where I found out that
when the sun sets in the desert and you are on a motorbike, it gets cold,
really cold, even bundled up with a heated vest, I had to slow down to 20
mph to keep from shaking uncontrollably. A trip to ND where I did 900
miles in 12 hours. Maintaining high speed is incredibly hard and I
probably will never do it again. On the way home I went at a more
leisurely pace. I also remember waiting in huge traffic backup stop on
highway 12 in MT while medics and a life flight helo tried to save a
Goldwing couple who bled out on the road after crashing into a oncoming
jeep and the guardrail on a corner...

I am married so I do not ride motobike anymore :) but as long as you
don't ever drink (not even 1 beer) and ride, and with the traffic
awareness that comes from being a cyclist, you already statistically much
safer .

BTW out of a class of 10 or so ? only 2 or 3 of us "passed". They
obviously really have your safety at heart.

I also wrote this a while ago. (remember when blogging was cool? I've
heard facebook is waning?, maybe blogs will come back? )
On a motorbike your weight is balanced, and bicycle you do have to be
slightly more aware, IMHO, of weight balance on the two wheels.

http://bikeeng.blogspot.com/search/label/cycling%20technique

John Schmidt

On Sat, Jul 12, 2014 at 6:53 PM, Steve Brown
wrote:

> Off topic from cycling, but looking for an OBRA member or reference for
> help in passing the motorcycle endorsement test. I spent two and one half
> days at the Team-Oregon Motorcycle BRT and came away with a bad experience.
> Seems that all the bike riding with a forward tilt of my head with my eyes
> up is bad form regardless of operating skills. Guess I am supposed to have
> my chin up higher. Need some help and advice.
>
>
> Steve Brown
> 503.781.3631
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Steve Brown

Off topic from cycling, but looking for an OBRA member or reference for help in passing the motorcycle endorsement test. I spent two and one half days at the Team-Oregon Motorcycle BRT and came away with a bad experience. Seems that all the bike riding with a forward tilt of my head with my eyes up is bad form regardless of operating skills. Guess I am supposed to have my chin up higher. Need some help and advice.

Steve Brown
503.781.3631