Retraction on ccx upgrade - no more in season forced upgrades.

Tim Schauer

2014-11-14

With regard to Clydesdale category, it is the most fun group I've
raced cross with. I think the critics are just jealous of the big
herd.

However, given the increased popularity of the category this year it
seems a tweak might be good. We used to have a few dozen clydes, now
we can get 60 or 70 Clydes in a race and there are more than 100
numbers issued to Clydes. Maybe it's the increasingly good food
vendors at the venues attracting these gluttons! But ... Maybe We
could run a staggered start in this order at 30 second waves for over
230, over 210, and under 210. Then top 5 from last year have to start
in the last wave regardless of weight.

This is all moot for me hopefully, as I am just floating over the line
at 203 this late in the season and hope to get back to one-Derland
weight for next year! Then I'll be dying in the middle of the masters
cats free from the bright lights of the top 10 Clydes....:(

We could also approach the Mike Murray BMI Standard by having a
Clydesdale over-under 6 foot tall split results. Of course Mike might
have to then lobby for a a masters 60+ stocky garden gnome category to
be truly fair to him.

Sorry Mike. I couldn't resist.

Tim Schauer
MacKay Sposito
Mobile 360 904 0748
Direct line 360 823 1313

This message was sent from my smart phone

> On Nov 14, 2014, at 12:25 PM, Mike Szwaya via OBRA wrote:
>
> It seems like the Beginner and C categories are the ones that run the highest risk of self-selection errors. As it has been noted here, these 2 categories are generally where some of the experienced racers from other disciplines self-select themselves when starting cross for the first time. Most of these people recognize fairly quickly when they are in the wrong category and move themselves up. However, for those that seem to be a little short on self-awareness, in-season upgrades seem appropriate to get these people into the right category as soon as possible.
>
> Now for the B-to-A transition...I'd suggest that this is the only upgrade that should happen at the end of the year.
>
> First, it's a common opinion that the transition from B to A is arguably the most difficult to make in terms of race length (40-45 min to 55-65 min) and pace. I'm sympathetic (to a limited extent) where it would be nice to base your training for the longer race and get a few of the smaller early season races in before jumping in to a large, very competitive crusade race. Is it necessary? Absolutely not. But if I had to choose between moving up to A's at the beginning of a season or midway through, I'd pick the beginning every time.
>
> Second, the B (both open and 35+) categories seem fairly competitive. A quick review of results shows that there aren't many instances where 1 or 2 racers are crushing every race. As a teammate of people in this situation, it's entertaining to watch some of these battles play out between a half-dozen or so racers over the season. The mandatory upgrade wouldn't have to happen but maybe Candi could send a message saying you've earned a forced upgrade to A's next year but you are encouraged to move up anytime this season with a call-up.
>
> ..and lastly, I fully support a BMI-based Clydesdale category. Anyone 25 and over is in, even my pleasantly plump but vertically-challenged friends.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Heather Johnson

2014-11-14

It occurs that maybe part of a solution to keep everyone happy would be
tweaking the upgrades? In all the other disciplines the higher the cat the
more points you need to upgrade. It seems to me like the amount of
training time that would be required is probably dramatically different
between being mid/bottom pack vs winning cat B's as opposed to mid/bottom
pack vs winning cat A's. The difference in time investment is probably even
less the lower cat you go.
I've noticed a number of people who start sandbagging it in the beginners
and end up getting mandatory upgrades all the way to cat A the same season.
I can see where that might be a touch off putting. Perhaps if it were
tweaked so that it takes a little longer for each upgrade would keep
everyone happy? It would still take care of the sandbagging problem and
keep the low levels beginner friendly while giving people that do get
upgraded a shot at series awards/figuring out what cat has the time
commitment they want as they move up.
Of course I may be way off the mark. Just a thought :)

Heather Johnson
heatherjpdx@gmail.com
503-808-0616

On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 12:45 PM, T. Kenji Sugahara via OBRA <
obra@list.obra.org> wrote:

> "For the most part I think most want to upgrade and will do so as soon
> as they can."
>
> Nope. The opposite is true. This is completely different than track or
> road.
>
> We created an upgrade matrix and point schedule in order to give
> clarity. This way everyone is treated the same.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 9:20 AM, Jamie Mikami via OBRA
> wrote:
> > I never said riders should only upgrade at the end of the year, just
> that we
> > should not force them to upgrade until the end of the year. For the most
> > part I think most want to upgrade and will do so as soon as they can.
> While
> > I don’t race cross, except for a fun outing to change up my training, I
> > think it best applies to cross because of the short season, large fields
> and
> > varies series prizes. It is a good bet that anyone in the top 10 at any
> B
> > or C cross race is more than good enough to upgrade, so the forced
> upgrades
> > of the few who get points is silly and doesn’t make the B or C races any
> > easier or more fun for the others. Those that truly don’t belong will
> be
> > ridiculed by friends and upgrade on their own.
> >
> > I like the point mentioned that in cross you can’t get a callup once you
> > have enough points to upgrade, that would further fix the issue by self
> > regulation, those callups are valuable. Ideas like this are why forced
> > upgrades should be avoided, I am sure there are other fixes to the issue
> as
> > well.
> >
> > Upgrades for most are a wanted badge to allow them to race against
> stronger
> > competitors who have more skills. For the very few affected by this
> rule
> > that just want to win a series for the first and maybe only time in their
> > career, let them. I am sure they will happily upgrade after the series
> and
> > no one will notice the extra two or three riders that hung around near
> the
> > front of the group for a couple of extra races.
> >
> > A number of us race for many years, a single year of winning the series,
> > even if it is the B series can give a great memory for many seasons. So
> > what if some thought they sandbagged, anyone not winning on the pro
> circuit
> > is a sandbagger. Picking to race masters instead of open, picking to
> race
> > Bs instead of A at the start of the season. Not racing on the east coast
> > UCI events, we are all a bunch of recreational sand baggers looking for a
> > single day of glory and for those rare few, the series prize.
> >
> > Being allowed a chance to crush that series leading sandbagger at the
> final
> > event when he should have upgraded long ago … priceless.
> >
> > Then we go and add single speed and clydes, talk about sandbagger
> categories
> > for the point of sandbagging … and yes I am mostly joking, but where is
> my
> > full time working father of two kids over 44 years old category. Oh and
> I
> > am hill adverse, but not enough to be a clyde, so I need a muscle fiber
> > exception to allow me to race with my correct category of clydes. Not
> that
> > it would help me win a cross race, but it might get me closer.
> >
> > Jamie
> >
> > Sent from Windows Mail
> >
> > From: OBRA
> > Sent: ‎Thursday‎, ‎November‎ ‎13‎, ‎2014 ‎4‎:‎57‎ ‎PM
> > To: OBRA
> >
> > Jamie’s suggestion doesn’t make any sense for any bike racing discipline.
> > Road and track riders not uncommonly start the season as Cat 5 and end as
> > Cat 2. The idea of only upgrading at the end of the year fails to grasp
> the
> > full scope of the issue and the number of upgrades that occur through the
> > year. It is a bummer that people get upgraded and become ineligible for
> a
> > series prize but the alternative is to have slower category fields packed
> > with faster riders. This makes an extremely inhospitable situation for
> > people new to the sport. Frankly, the solution is to only award series
> > prizes for elite fields or for short series. Having a series prize over
> a
> > long period for a slower field only guarantees that the winner is the
> > fastest person that is unable to upgrade to the next faster category.
> >
> >
> >
> > Mike Murray
> >
> >
> >
> > From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Dan
> Anderson via
> > OBRA
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 11:18 AM
> > To: velodad@comcast.net; C Murray; T. Kenji Sugahara; OBRA
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Retraction on ccx upgrade - no more in season
> > forced upgrades.
> >
> >
> >
> > Jamie, I assume you are talking about road racing, since I don't see any
> CX
> > in your racing history.
> >
> >
> >
> > Part of the reason mandatory upgrades are necessary in CX is that lots of
> > new riders start out in the wrong category. Cat 5 roadies show up and
> crush
> > the Beginner/C fields. They should get to win a few races, but then
> move on
> > to the next category, instead of skewing the field for everyone else.
> >
> >
> >
> > Also, most of the people that earn their upgrade tend to find themselves
> > racing mid-pack in their newer category. Which tells me we need to be
> > upgrading people as soon as they have proven that they can repeat their
> > results in multiple races, and not waiting until next year. If you wait
> > until the end of the season to force upgrades, you're going to have the
> same
> > guys get great call-ups all season long and dominate every race, while
> > riders who are just barely out of the points (and are ALSO probably
> capable
> > of riding in the next category) are stuck racing from the back, which in
> CX
> > is a significant disadvantage. And it's just not 'fun'.
> >
> >
> >
> > If we don't like how the series standings/prizes shake out for for B/C
> > races, we should do away with those and have prizes for people when they
> > earn an upgrade instead. We're presented with a choice of giving a
> season
> > victory to the biggest sandbagger or to the last guy to get upgraded.
> Why
> > should we have to do either?
> >
> >
> >
> > Dan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: Jamie Mikami via OBRA
> > To: C Murray ; T. Kenji Sugahara ;
> OBRA
> >
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 8:43 AM
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Retraction on ccx upgrade - no more in season
> > forced upgrades.
> >
> >
> >
> > I for one would love to see the forced in season upgrade erased.
> >
> >
> >
> > It has always stood out as silly to force a recreational racer to upgrade
> > mid season while competing for points in a season long race. If
> someone’s
> > goal is to upgrade, great let them move through the ranks and get out of
> the
> > way. But if someone just wants to have fun and compete with a group of
> > racers, let them go at it for the year and stop adding work for yourself
> > tracking everyone all season long every week.
> >
> >
> >
> > Do it once at the end of the year and let people compete for a season
> long
> > prize if they want. Chances are this is a one time thing and once they
> > upgrade the following year it will be much harder - at most you can
> sandbag
> > for 2 years before you are an A or cat 1/2 anyways. If people want to
> > complain about sandbaggers, let them do that and if the sandbagger
> doesn’t
> > like that they can ask to be upgraded midseason to avoid the label on
> their
> > own. To me this applies to all types of racing, so while I don’t race
> much
> > cross, I do race and enjoy competing with my friends week in and week
> out.
> >
> >
> >
> > I wish I had enough left in the tank to play with Cross this year - seems
> > like much fun - other than the upgrades and need for callups.
> >
> >
> >
> > Jamie
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Kenji Sugahara
> Executive Director
> Oregon Bicycle Racing Association
> Phone: 503-278-5550
> http://www.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>


Mike Murray

2014-11-14

Oh, people do pay attention. Every week when Candi announces the upgrades there is a chorus of complaints. Some from people on the list. Some from people who have been counting the points for the people in front of them and want to know why those people are not on the list. There are a few thank yous from people that see the upgrade as they should, better than a win in a category they have qualified to move out of.

Mike Murray

From: Dan Anderson [mailto:danfrisbeeman@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2014 10:47
To: velodad@comcast.net; Mike Murray
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Retraction on ccx upgrade - no more in season forced upgrades.

"For the most part I think most want to upgrade and will do so as soon as they can." Ah, if only that were true. I think most people don't keep track, and don't even notice when Candi has announced their upgrade. I noticed someone once who had SIXTEEN top ten finishes (TWELVE in the top 5) before they moved from B to A. And one year a guy who was a Cat 4 roadie crushed the Cat 3 short track field from April to August, won the Cat 3 state championship and the Cat 3 national championship. Cat 3 national championship?! Seriously? That's like the sandbagging championships of the universe. Their friends don't ridicule them -- they defend them, despite the upgrade guidelines.

_____

From: Jamie Mikami via OBRA
To: OBRA ; Mike Murray
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2014 9:20 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Retraction on ccx upgrade - no more in season forced upgrades.

I never said riders should only upgrade at the end of the year, just that we should not force them to upgrade until the end of the year. For the most part I think most want to upgrade and will do so as soon as they can. While I don’t race cross, except for a fun outing to change up my training, I think it best applies to cross because of the short season, large fields and varies series prizes. It is a good bet that anyone in the top 10 at any B or C cross race is more than good enough to upgrade, so the forced upgrades of the few who get points is silly and doesn’t make the B or C races any easier or more fun for the others. Those that truly don’t belong will be ridiculed by friends and upgrade on their own.

I like the point mentioned that in cross you can’t get a callup once you have enough points to upgrade, that would further fix the issue by self regulation, those callups are valuable. Ideas like this are why forced upgrades should be avoided, I am sure there are other fixes to the issue as well.

Upgrades for most are a wanted badge to allow them to race against stronger competitors who have more skills. For the very few affected by this rule that just want to win a series for the first and maybe only time in their career, let them. I am sure they will happily upgrade after the series and no one will notice the extra two or three riders that hung around near the front of the group for a couple of extra races.

A number of us race for many years, a single year of winning the series, even if it is the B series can give a great memory for many seasons. So what if some thought they sandbagged, anyone not winning on the pro circuit is a sandbagger. Picking to race masters instead of open, picking to race Bs instead of A at the start of the season. Not racing on the east coast UCI events, we are all a bunch of recreational sand baggers looking for a single day of glory and for those rare few, the series prize.

Being allowed a chance to crush that series leading sandbagger at the final event when he should have upgraded long ago … priceless.

Then we go and add single speed and clydes, talk about sandbagger categories for the point of sandbagging … and yes I am mostly joking, but where is my full time working father of two kids over 44 years old category. Oh and I am hill adverse, but not enough to be a clyde, so I need a muscle fiber exception to allow me to race with my correct category of clydes. Not that it would help me win a cross race, but it might get me closer.

Jamie

Sent from Windows Mail

From: OBRA
Sent: ‎Thursday‎, ‎November‎ ‎13‎, ‎2014 ‎4‎:‎57‎ ‎PM
To: OBRA

Jamie’s suggestion doesn’t make any sense for any bike racing discipline. Road and track riders not uncommonly start the season as Cat 5 and end as Cat 2. The idea of only upgrading at the end of the year fails to grasp the full scope of the issue and the number of upgrades that occur through the year. It is a bummer that people get upgraded and become ineligible for a series prize but the alternative is to have slower category fields packed with faster riders. This makes an extremely inhospitable situation for people new to the sport. Frankly, the solution is to only award series prizes for elite fields or for short series. Having a series prize over a long period for a slower field only guarantees that the winner is the fastest person that is unable to upgrade to the next faster category.

Mike Murray

From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Dan Anderson via OBRA
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 11:18 AM
To: velodad@comcast.net; C Murray; T. Kenji Sugahara; OBRA
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Retraction on ccx upgrade - no more in season forced upgrades.

Jamie, I assume you are talking about road racing, since I don't see any CX in your racing history.

Part of the reason mandatory upgrades are necessary in CX is that lots of new riders start out in the wrong category. Cat 5 roadies show up and crush the Beginner/C fields. They should get to win a few races, but then move on to the next category, instead of skewing the field for everyone else.

Also, most of the people that earn their upgrade tend to find themselves racing mid-pack in their newer category. Which tells me we need to be upgrading people as soon as they have proven that they can repeat their results in multiple races, and not waiting until next year. If you wait until the end of the season to force upgrades, you're going to have the same guys get great call-ups all season long and dominate every race, while riders who are just barely out of the points (and are ALSO probably capable of riding in the next category) are stuck racing from the back, which in CX is a significant disadvantage. And it's just not 'fun'.

If we don't like how the series standings/prizes shake out for for B/C races, we should do away with those and have prizes for people when they earn an upgrade instead. We're presented with a choice of giving a season victory to the biggest sandbagger or to the last guy to get upgraded. Why should we have to do either?

Dan

_____

From: Jamie Mikami via OBRA
To: C Murray ; T. Kenji Sugahara ; OBRA
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 8:43 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Retraction on ccx upgrade - no more in season forced upgrades.

I for one would love to see the forced in season upgrade erased.

It has always stood out as silly to force a recreational racer to upgrade mid season while competing for points in a season long race. If someone’s goal is to upgrade, great let them move through the ranks and get out of the way. But if someone just wants to have fun and compete with a group of racers, let them go at it for the year and stop adding work for yourself tracking everyone all season long every week.

Do it once at the end of the year and let people compete for a season long prize if they want. Chances are this is a one time thing and once they upgrade the following year it will be much harder - at most you can sandbag for 2 years before you are an A or cat 1/2 anyways. If people want to complain about sandbaggers, let them do that and if the sandbagger doesn’t like that they can ask to be upgraded midseason to avoid the label on their own. To me this applies to all types of racing, so while I don’t race much cross, I do race and enjoy competing with my friends week in and week out.

I wish I had enough left in the tank to play with Cross this year - seems like much fun - other than the upgrades and need for callups.

Jamie

_______________________________________________
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http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


T. Kenji Sugahara

2014-11-14

"For the most part I think most want to upgrade and will do so as soon
as they can."

Nope. The opposite is true. This is completely different than track or road.

We created an upgrade matrix and point schedule in order to give
clarity. This way everyone is treated the same.

On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 9:20 AM, Jamie Mikami via OBRA
wrote:
> I never said riders should only upgrade at the end of the year, just that we
> should not force them to upgrade until the end of the year. For the most
> part I think most want to upgrade and will do so as soon as they can. While
> I don���t race cross, except for a fun outing to change up my training, I
> think it best applies to cross because of the short season, large fields and
> varies series prizes. It is a good bet that anyone in the top 10 at any B
> or C cross race is more than good enough to upgrade, so the forced upgrades
> of the few who get points is silly and doesn���t make the B or C races any
> easier or more fun for the others. Those that truly don���t belong will be
> ridiculed by friends and upgrade on their own.
>
> I like the point mentioned that in cross you can���t get a callup once you
> have enough points to upgrade, that would further fix the issue by self
> regulation, those callups are valuable. Ideas like this are why forced
> upgrades should be avoided, I am sure there are other fixes to the issue as
> well.
>
> Upgrades for most are a wanted badge to allow them to race against stronger
> competitors who have more skills. For the very few affected by this rule
> that just want to win a series for the first and maybe only time in their
> career, let them. I am sure they will happily upgrade after the series and
> no one will notice the extra two or three riders that hung around near the
> front of the group for a couple of extra races.
>
> A number of us race for many years, a single year of winning the series,
> even if it is the B series can give a great memory for many seasons. So
> what if some thought they sandbagged, anyone not winning on the pro circuit
> is a sandbagger. Picking to race masters instead of open, picking to race
> Bs instead of A at the start of the season. Not racing on the east coast
> UCI events, we are all a bunch of recreational sand baggers looking for a
> single day of glory and for those rare few, the series prize.
>
> Being allowed a chance to crush that series leading sandbagger at the final
> event when he should have upgraded long ago ��� priceless.
>
> Then we go and add single speed and clydes, talk about sandbagger categories
> for the point of sandbagging ��� and yes I am mostly joking, but where is my
> full time working father of two kids over 44 years old category. Oh and I
> am hill adverse, but not enough to be a clyde, so I need a muscle fiber
> exception to allow me to race with my correct category of clydes. Not that
> it would help me win a cross race, but it might get me closer.
>
> Jamie
>
> Sent from Windows Mail
>
> From: OBRA
> Sent: ���Thursday���, ���November��� ���13���, ���2014 ���4���:���57��� ���PM
> To: OBRA
>
> Jamie���s suggestion doesn���t make any sense for any bike racing discipline.
> Road and track riders not uncommonly start the season as Cat 5 and end as
> Cat 2. The idea of only upgrading at the end of the year fails to grasp the
> full scope of the issue and the number of upgrades that occur through the
> year. It is a bummer that people get upgraded and become ineligible for a
> series prize but the alternative is to have slower category fields packed
> with faster riders. This makes an extremely inhospitable situation for
> people new to the sport. Frankly, the solution is to only award series
> prizes for elite fields or for short series. Having a series prize over a
> long period for a slower field only guarantees that the winner is the
> fastest person that is unable to upgrade to the next faster category.
>
>
>
> Mike Murray
>
>
>
> From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Dan Anderson via
> OBRA
> Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 11:18 AM
> To: velodad@comcast.net; C Murray; T. Kenji Sugahara; OBRA
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Retraction on ccx upgrade - no more in season
> forced upgrades.
>
>
>
> Jamie, I assume you are talking about road racing, since I don't see any CX
> in your racing history.
>
>
>
> Part of the reason mandatory upgrades are necessary in CX is that lots of
> new riders start out in the wrong category. Cat 5 roadies show up and crush
> the Beginner/C fields. They should get to win a few races, but then move on
> to the next category, instead of skewing the field for everyone else.
>
>
>
> Also, most of the people that earn their upgrade tend to find themselves
> racing mid-pack in their newer category. Which tells me we need to be
> upgrading people as soon as they have proven that they can repeat their
> results in multiple races, and not waiting until next year. If you wait
> until the end of the season to force upgrades, you're going to have the same
> guys get great call-ups all season long and dominate every race, while
> riders who are just barely out of the points (and are ALSO probably capable
> of riding in the next category) are stuck racing from the back, which in CX
> is a significant disadvantage. And it's just not 'fun'.
>
>
>
> If we don't like how the series standings/prizes shake out for for B/C
> races, we should do away with those and have prizes for people when they
> earn an upgrade instead. We're presented with a choice of giving a season
> victory to the biggest sandbagger or to the last guy to get upgraded. Why
> should we have to do either?
>
>
>
> Dan
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Jamie Mikami via OBRA
> To: C Murray ; T. Kenji Sugahara ; OBRA
>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 8:43 AM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Retraction on ccx upgrade - no more in season
> forced upgrades.
>
>
>
> I for one would love to see the forced in season upgrade erased.
>
>
>
> It has always stood out as silly to force a recreational racer to upgrade
> mid season while competing for points in a season long race. If someone���s
> goal is to upgrade, great let them move through the ranks and get out of the
> way. But if someone just wants to have fun and compete with a group of
> racers, let them go at it for the year and stop adding work for yourself
> tracking everyone all season long every week.
>
>
>
> Do it once at the end of the year and let people compete for a season long
> prize if they want. Chances are this is a one time thing and once they
> upgrade the following year it will be much harder - at most you can sandbag
> for 2 years before you are an A or cat 1/2 anyways. If people want to
> complain about sandbaggers, let them do that and if the sandbagger doesn���t
> like that they can ask to be upgraded midseason to avoid the label on their
> own. To me this applies to all types of racing, so while I don���t race much
> cross, I do race and enjoy competing with my friends week in and week out.
>
>
>
> I wish I had enough left in the tank to play with Cross this year - seems
> like much fun - other than the upgrades and need for callups.
>
>
>
> Jamie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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--
Kenji Sugahara
Executive Director
Oregon Bicycle Racing Association
Phone: 503-278-5550
http://www.obra.org


Dan Anderson

2014-11-14

Would people feel better about 'having a chance to shine' if finish lists were filtered by more categories?  The Portland marathon shows finishers split up by every 5 years of age.  In the Crusade, you could also filter all finishers in a category by their starting number too (last digit).  When I'm racing in a number group starting at the back, I just look to see how I did against others in the same starting group, but of course I have to create that list manually.

From: Thom Schoenborn via OBRA
To: velodad@comcast.net
Cc: OBRA
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2014 11:38 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Retraction on ccx upgrade - no more in season forced upgrades.

To say Jamie's idea makes no sense seems a little strong.  We all sacrifice a lot for racing, and sniffing the front of a race is when those sacrifices get paid back. I don't believe Jamie's point is to tilt the playing field so the rich get richer, but rather to explore ways so people might savor it a little bit longer.
His idea does make sense, it just depends on the priorities and goals of OBRA. OBRA wants to spread the winning around.
But perhaps the goal could be to let people play out a full series. Or, as Jamie was suggesting, within a season. Maybe the scoring of the upgrades needs to be adjusted since the B's and C's routinely have over 100 racers. 

Last season, I ended up in the top 10 in the Crusade series for the Master C's. Not because I was particularly good, but rather because everyone in front of me got upgraded. I literally failed my way up the rankings each week. Does that make sense?

So maybe these ideas aren't perfect, but they provide a different perspective that seems (to me, at least) worth exploring. 
-Thom

p.s. But maybe I'm just sensitive to this because I earned my upgrade this season without ever winning a race, and find myself getting shelled in the B's. 

On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 9:20 AM, Jamie Mikami via OBRA wrote:

I never said riders should only upgrade at the end of the year, just that we should not force them to upgrade until the end of the year.  For the most part I think most want to upgrade and will do so as soon as they can.  While I don’t race cross, except for a fun outing to change up my training, I think it best applies to cross because of the short season, large fields and varies series prizes.  It is a good bet that anyone in the top 10 at any B or C cross race is more than good enough to upgrade, so the forced upgrades of the few who get points is silly and doesn’t make the B or C races any easier or more fun for the others.    Those that truly don’t belong will be ridiculed by friends and upgrade on their own.
I like the point mentioned that in cross you can’t get a callup once you have enough points to upgrade, that would further fix the issue by self regulation, those callups are valuable.  Ideas like this are why forced upgrades should be avoided, I am sure there are other fixes to the issue as well. 
Upgrades for most are a wanted badge to allow them to race against stronger competitors who have more skills.   For the very few affected by this rule that just want to win a series for the first and maybe only time in their career, let them.  I am sure they will happily upgrade after the series and no one will notice the extra two or three riders that hung around near the front of the group for a couple of extra races.

A number of us race for many years, a single year of winning the series, even if it is the B series can give a great memory for many seasons.  So what if some thought they sandbagged, anyone not winning on the pro circuit is a sandbagger.  Picking to race masters instead of open, picking to race Bs instead of A at the start of the season.  Not racing on the east coast UCI events, we are all a bunch of recreational sand baggers looking for a single day of glory and for those rare few, the series prize.  
Being allowed a chance to crush that series leading sandbagger at the final event when he should have upgraded long ago … priceless.
Then we go and add single speed and clydes, talk about sandbagger categories for the point of sandbagging … and yes I am mostly joking, but where is my full time working father of two kids over 44 years old category.  Oh and I am hill adverse, but not enough to be a clyde, so I need a muscle fiber exception to allow me to race with my correct category of clydes.  Not that it would help me win a cross race, but it might get me closer.
Jamie
Sent from Windows Mail
From: OBRA
Sent: ‎Thursday‎, ‎November‎ ‎13‎, ‎2014 ‎4‎:‎57‎ ‎PM
To: OBRA
Jamie’s suggestion doesn’t make any sense for any bike racing discipline.  Road and track riders not uncommonly start the season as Cat 5 and end as Cat 2.  The idea of only upgrading at the end of the year fails to grasp the full scope of the issue and the number of upgrades that occur through the year.  It is a bummer that people get upgraded and become ineligible for a series prize but the alternative is to have slower category fields packed with faster riders.  This makes an extremely inhospitable situation for people new to the sport.  Frankly, the solution is to only award series prizes for elite fields or for short series.  Having a series prize over a long period for a slower field only guarantees that the winner is the fastest person that is unable to upgrade to the next faster category.  Mike Murray From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Dan Anderson via OBRA
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 11:18 AM
To: velodad@comcast.net; C Murray; T. Kenji Sugahara; OBRA
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Retraction on ccx upgrade - no more in season forced upgrades. Jamie, I assume you are talking about road racing, since I don't see any CX in your racing history. Part of the reason mandatory upgrades are necessary in CX is that lots of new riders start out in the wrong category.  Cat 5 roadies show up and crush the Beginner/C fields.  They should get to win a few races, but then move on to the next category, instead of skewing the field for everyone else. Also, most of the people that earn their upgrade tend to find themselves racing mid-pack in their newer category.  Which tells me we need to be upgrading people as soon as they have proven that they can repeat their results in multiple races, and not waiting until next year.  If you wait until the end of the season to force upgrades, you're going to have the same guys get great call-ups all season long and dominate every race, while riders who are just barely out of the points (and are ALSO probably capable of riding in the next category) are stuck racing from the back, which in CX is a significant disadvantage.  And it's just not 'fun'.   If we don't like how the series standings/prizes shake out for for B/C races, we should do away with those and have prizes for people when they earn an upgrade instead.  We're presented with a choice of giving a season victory to the biggest sandbagger or to the last guy to get upgraded.  Why should we have to do either? Dan  From: Jamie Mikami via OBRA
To: C Murray ; T. Kenji Sugahara ; OBRA
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 8:43 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Retraction on ccx upgrade - no more in season forced upgrades. I for one would love to see the forced in season upgrade erased. It has always stood out as silly to force a recreational racer to upgrade mid season while competing for points in a season long race.  If someone’s goal is to upgrade, great let them move through the ranks and get out of the way.  But if someone just wants to have fun and compete with a group of racers, let them go at it for the year and stop adding work for yourself tracking everyone all season long every week. Do it once at the end of the year and let people compete for a season long prize if they want.   Chances are this is a one time thing and once they upgrade the following year it will be much harder - at most you can sandbag for 2 years before you are an A or cat 1/2 anyways.  If people want to complain about sandbaggers, let them do that and if the sandbagger doesn’t like that they can ask to be upgraded midseason to avoid the label on their own.  To me this applies to all types of racing, so while I don’t race much cross, I do race and enjoy competing with my friends week in and week out. I wish I had enough left in the tank to play with Cross this year - seems like much fun - other than the upgrades and need for callups.  Jamie       _______________________________________________
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Mike Szwaya

2014-11-14

It seems like the Beginner and C categories are the ones that run the highest risk of self-selection errors. As it has been noted here, these 2 categories are generally where some of the experienced racers from other disciplines self-select themselves when starting cross for the first time. Most of these people recognize fairly quickly when they are in the wrong category and move themselves up. However, for those that seem to be a little short on self-awareness, in-season upgrades seem appropriate to get these people into the right category as soon as possible.

Now for the B-to-A transition...I'd suggest that this is the only upgrade that should happen at the end of the year.

First, it's a common opinion that the transition from B to A is arguably the most difficult to make in terms of race length (40-45 min to 55-65 min) and pace. I'm sympathetic (to a limited extent) where it would be nice to base your training for the longer race and get a few of the smaller early season races in before jumping in to a large, very competitive crusade race. Is it necessary? Absolutely not. But if I had to choose between moving up to A's at the beginning of a season or midway through, I'd pick the beginning every time.

Second, the B (both open and 35+) categories seem fairly competitive. A quick review of results shows that there aren't many instances where 1 or 2 racers are crushing every race. As a teammate of people in this situation, it's entertaining to watch some of these battles play out between a half-dozen or so racers over the season. The mandatory upgrade wouldn't have to happen but maybe Candi could send a message saying you've earned a forced upgrade to A's next year but you are encouraged to move up anytime this season with a call-up.

..and lastly, I fully support a BMI-based Clydesdale category. Anyone 25 and over is in, even my pleasantly plump but vertically-challenged friends.


Thom Schoenborn

2014-11-14

To say Jamie's idea *makes no sense* seems a little strong. We all
sacrifice a lot for racing, and sniffing the front of a race is when those
sacrifices get paid back. I don't believe Jamie's point is to tilt the
playing field so the rich get richer, but rather to explore ways so people
might savor it a little bit longer.

His idea *does* make sense, it just depends on the priorities and goals of
OBRA. OBRA wants to spread the winning around.

But perhaps the goal could be to let people play out a full series. Or, as
Jamie was suggesting, within a season. Maybe the scoring of the upgrades
needs to be adjusted since the B's and C's routinely have over 100 racers.

Last season, I ended up in the top 10 in the Crusade series for the Master
C's. Not because I was particularly good, but rather because everyone in
front of me got upgraded. I literally failed my way up the rankings each
week. Does that make sense?

So maybe these ideas aren't perfect, but they provide a different
perspective that seems (to me, at least) worth exploring.

-Thom

p.s. But maybe I'm just sensitive to this because I earned my upgrade this
season without ever winning a race, and find myself getting shelled in the
B's.

On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 9:20 AM, Jamie Mikami via OBRA
wrote:

> I never said riders should only upgrade at the end of the year, just
> that we should not force them to upgrade until the end of the year. For
> the most part I think most want to upgrade and will do so as soon as they
> can. While I don’t race cross, except for a fun outing to change up my
> training, I think it best applies to cross because of the short season,
> large fields and varies series prizes. It is a good bet that anyone in the
> top 10 at any B or C cross race is more than good enough to upgrade, so the
> forced upgrades of the few who get points is silly and doesn’t make the B
> or C races any easier or more fun for the others. Those that truly don’t
> belong will be ridiculed by friends and upgrade on their own.
>
> I like the point mentioned that in cross you can’t get a callup once you
> have enough points to upgrade, that would further fix the issue by self
> regulation, those callups are valuable. Ideas like this are why forced
> upgrades should be avoided, I am sure there are other fixes to the issue as
> well.
>
> Upgrades for most are a wanted badge to allow them to race against
> stronger competitors who have more skills. For the very few affected by
> this rule that just want to win a series for the first and maybe only time
> in their career, let them. I am sure they will happily upgrade after the
> series and no one will notice the extra two or three riders that hung
> around near the front of the group for a couple of extra races.
>
> A number of us race for many years, a single year of winning the series,
> even if it is the B series can give a great memory for many seasons. So
> what if some thought they sandbagged, anyone not winning on the pro circuit
> is a sandbagger. Picking to race masters instead of open, picking to race
> Bs instead of A at the start of the season. Not racing on the east coast
> UCI events, we are all a bunch of recreational sand baggers looking for a
> single day of glory and for those rare few, the series prize.
>
> Being allowed a chance to crush that series leading sandbagger at the
> final event when he should have upgraded long ago … priceless.
>
> Then we go and add single speed and clydes, talk about sandbagger
> categories for the point of sandbagging … and yes I am mostly joking, but
> where is my full time working father of two kids over 44 years
> old category. Oh and I am hill adverse, but not enough to be a clyde, so I
> need a muscle fiber exception to allow me to race with my correct category
> of clydes. Not that it would help me win a cross race, but it might get me
> closer.
>
> Jamie
>
> Sent from Windows Mail
>
> *From:* OBRA
> *Sent:* ‎Thursday‎, ‎November‎ ‎13‎, ‎2014 ‎4‎:‎57‎ ‎PM
> *To:* OBRA
>
> Jamie’s suggestion doesn’t make any sense for any bike racing discipline.
> Road and track riders not uncommonly start the season as Cat 5 and end as
> Cat 2. The idea of only upgrading at the end of the year fails to grasp
> the full scope of the issue and the number of upgrades that occur through
> the year. It is a bummer that people get upgraded and become ineligible
> for a series prize but the alternative is to have slower category fields
> packed with faster riders. This makes an extremely inhospitable situation
> for people new to the sport. Frankly, the solution is to only award series
> prizes for elite fields or for short series. Having a series prize over a
> long period for a slower field only guarantees that the winner is the
> fastest person that is unable to upgrade to the next faster category.
>
>
>
> Mike Murray
>
>
>
> *From:* OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] *On Behalf Of *Dan
> Anderson via OBRA
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 12, 2014 11:18 AM
> *To:* velodad@comcast.net; C Murray; T. Kenji Sugahara; OBRA
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Retraction on ccx upgrade - no more in season
> forced upgrades.
>
>
>
> Jamie, I assume you are talking about road racing, since I don't see any
> CX in your racing history.
>
>
>
> Part of the reason mandatory upgrades are necessary in CX is that lots of
> new riders start out in the wrong category. Cat 5 roadies show up and
> crush the Beginner/C fields. They should get to win a few races, but then
> move on to the next category, instead of skewing the field for everyone
> else.
>
>
>
> Also, most of the people that earn their upgrade tend to find themselves
> racing mid-pack in their newer category. Which tells me we need to be
> upgrading people as soon as they have proven that they can repeat their
> results in multiple races, and not waiting until next year. If you wait
> until the end of the season to force upgrades, you're going to have the
> same guys get great call-ups all season long and dominate every race, while
> riders who are just barely out of the points (and are ALSO probably capable
> of riding in the next category) are stuck racing from the back, which in CX
> is a significant disadvantage. And it's just not 'fun'.
>
>
>
> If we don't like how the series standings/prizes shake out for for B/C
> races, we should do away with those and have prizes for people when they
> earn an upgrade instead. We're presented with a choice of giving a season
> victory to the biggest sandbagger or to the last guy to get upgraded. Why
> should we have to do either?
>
>
>
> Dan
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Jamie Mikami via OBRA
> *To:* C Murray ; T. Kenji Sugahara ;
> OBRA
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 12, 2014 8:43 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Retraction on ccx upgrade - no more in season
> forced upgrades.
>
>
>
> I for one would love to see the forced in season upgrade erased.
>
>
>
> It has always stood out as silly to force a recreational racer to upgrade
> mid season while competing for points in a season long race. If someone’s
> goal is to upgrade, great let them move through the ranks and get out of
> the way. But if someone just wants to have fun and compete with a group of
> racers, let them go at it for the year and stop adding work for yourself
> tracking everyone all season long every week.
>
>
>
> Do it once at the end of the year and let people compete for a season long
> prize if they want. Chances are this is a one time thing and once they
> upgrade the following year it will be much harder - at most you can sandbag
> for 2 years before you are an A or cat 1/2 anyways. If people want to
> complain about sandbaggers, let them do that and if the sandbagger doesn’t
> like that they can ask to be upgraded midseason to avoid the label on their
> own. To me this applies to all types of racing, so while I don’t race much
> cross, I do race and enjoy competing with my friends week in and week out.
>
>
>
> I wish I had enough left in the tank to play with Cross this year - seems
> like much fun - other than the upgrades and need for callups.
>
>
>
> Jamie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>


velod..@comcast.net

2014-11-14

I would bet that the kicking and screaming would be muted if you allowed them to finish the year as the lower cat.

I hold that we are all sand baggers and that anyone who wins a B or C series is a sandbagger, but so what so is that A rider who didn’t turn pro or raced masters instead and ruined my day, someone is going to win and be that sandbagger regardless of how many you upgrade. So am I for winning a masters race, yet I still enjoy winning the race, even though I could have got an equal workout losing in the open race. I thought the whole idea behind the A/B/C idea of cross was to avoid making people race certain categories and allowing them to self select based on their goals for the race/year/whatever and to spread out the fields since so many people show up. I used to love going out to my annual cross race or two and just racing with whatever group fit my schedule for the day. With 100+ riders in each field you are going to get competition regardless of A/B/C, some win, some lose, some complain and some just ride their bikes.

I understand I am saying all of this from my couch with my season over and that many take cross way more seriously than I do, but I have been around the block a few times and think that we are getting too overboard with the control. With the current numbers in cross, makes me think that the road season is the offseason for cross and that maybe we need to judge our road category based on our cross category if we want to take total control of the situation. All them sandbagging cross types are just making it too hard to win a road race.

Just my thoughts and the reason I decided to chime in. Back to thinking about when I start my training for next year. Maybe I should show up at one of these cross things and see what all the fuss is about.

Jamie

From: OBRA
Sent: ‎Friday‎, ‎November‎ ‎14‎, ‎2014 ‎10‎:‎41‎ ‎AM
To: OBRA

CX season is not really so short. This year it went from 8/11-12/14, 125 days. For comparison:

start end days
cx 11-Aug 14-Dec 125
track 1-May 29-Aug 120
road 2-Mar 7-Sep 189
mtb 1-Mar 7-Sep 190

Mandatory upgrades is not "forced upgrades of the few who get points". Each year during cross season there are well over 100 mandatory upgrades, very many of them kicking and screaming. In addition there are the self-selected upgrades (allowable up to A). A system that does not move the fast riders out of the slower categories really is just not practical, especially given that a Cat 1 road rider can elect to start CX in the beginning category as happened at least once this year.

As for clydes, that stuff is blatant sizism, prejudice against the short. I say we go by BMI

Mike Murray

From: velodad@comcast.net [mailto:velodad@comcast.net]
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2014 09:21
To: OBRA; Mike Murray
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Retraction on ccx upgrade - no more in season forced upgrades.

I never said riders should only upgrade at the end of the year, just that we should not force them to upgrade until the end of the year. For the most part I think most want to upgrade and will do so as soon as they can. While I don’t race cross, except for a fun outing to change up my training, I think it best applies to cross because of the short season, large fields and varies series prizes. It is a good bet that anyone in the top 10 at any B or C cross race is more than good enough to upgrade, so the forced upgrades of the few who get points is silly and doesn’t make the B or C races any easier or more fun for the others. Those that truly don’t belong will be ridiculed by friends and upgrade on their own.

I like the point mentioned that in cross you can’t get a callup once you have enough points to upgrade, that would further fix the issue by self regulation, those callups are valuable. Ideas like this are why forced upgrades should be avoided, I am sure there are other fixes to the issue as well.

Upgrades for most are a wanted badge to allow them to race against stronger competitors who have more skills. For the very few affected by this rule that just want to win a series for the first and maybe only time in their career, let them. I am sure they will happily upgrade after the series and no one will notice the extra two or three riders that hung around near the front of the group for a couple of extra races.

A number of us race for many years, a single year of winning the series, even if it is the B series can give a great memory for many seasons. So what if some thought they sandbagged, anyone not winning on the pro circuit is a sandbagger. Picking to race masters instead of open, picking to race Bs instead of A at the start of the season. Not racing on the east coast UCI events, we are all a bunch of recreational sand baggers looking for a single day of glory and for those rare few, the series prize.

Being allowed a chance to crush that series leading sandbagger at the final event when he should have upgraded long ago … priceless.

Then we go and add single speed and clydes, talk about sandbagger categories for the point of sandbagging … and yes I am mostly joking, but where is my full time working father of two kids over 44 years old category. Oh and I am hill adverse, but not enough to be a clyde, so I need a muscle fiber exception to allow me to race with my correct category of clydes. Not that it would help me win a cross race, but it might get me closer.

Jamie

Sent from Windows Mail

From: OBRA
Sent: ‎Thursday‎, ‎November‎ ‎13‎, ‎2014 ‎4‎:‎57‎ ‎PM
To: OBRA

Jamie’s suggestion doesn’t make any sense for any bike racing discipline. Road and track riders not uncommonly start the season as Cat 5 and end as Cat 2. The idea of only upgrading at the end of the year fails to grasp the full scope of the issue and the number of upgrades that occur through the year. It is a bummer that people get upgraded and become ineligible for a series prize but the alternative is to have slower category fields packed with faster riders. This makes an extremely inhospitable situation for people new to the sport. Frankly, the solution is to only award series prizes for elite fields or for short series. Having a series prize over a long period for a slower field only guarantees that the winner is the fastest person that is unable to upgrade to the next faster category.

Mike Murray

From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Dan Anderson via OBRA
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 11:18 AM
To: velodad@comcast.net; C Murray; T. Kenji Sugahara; OBRA
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Retraction on ccx upgrade - no more in season forced upgrades.

Jamie, I assume you are talking about road racing, since I don't see any CX in your racing history.

Part of the reason mandatory upgrades are necessary in CX is that lots of new riders start out in the wrong category. Cat 5 roadies show up and crush the Beginner/C fields. They should get to win a few races, but then move on to the next category, instead of skewing the field for everyone else.

Also, most of the people that earn their upgrade tend to find themselves racing mid-pack in their newer category. Which tells me we need to be upgrading people as soon as they have proven that they can repeat their results in multiple races, and not waiting until next year. If you wait until the end of the season to force upgrades, you're going to have the same guys get great call-ups all season long and dominate every race, while riders who are just barely out of the points (and are ALSO probably capable of riding in the next category) are stuck racing from the back, which in CX is a significant disadvantage. And it's just not 'fun'.

If we don't like how the series standings/prizes shake out for for B/C races, we should do away with those and have prizes for people when they earn an upgrade instead. We're presented with a choice of giving a season victory to the biggest sandbagger or to the last guy to get upgraded. Why should we have to do either?

Dan


________________________________________
From: Jamie Mikami via OBRA
To: C Murray ; T. Kenji Sugahara ; OBRA
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 8:43 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Retraction on ccx upgrade - no more in season forced upgrades.

I for one would love to see the forced in season upgrade erased.

It has always stood out as silly to force a recreational racer to upgrade mid season while competing for points in a season long race. If someone’s goal is to upgrade, great let them move through the ranks and get out of the way. But if someone just wants to have fun and compete with a group of racers, let them go at it for the year and stop adding work for yourself tracking everyone all season long every week.

Do it once at the end of the year and let people compete for a season long prize if they want. Chances are this is a one time thing and once they upgrade the following year it will be much harder - at most you can sandbag for 2 years before you are an A or cat 1/2 anyways. If people want to complain about sandbaggers, let them do that and if the sandbagger doesn’t like that they can ask to be upgraded midseason to avoid the label on their own. To me this applies to all types of racing, so while I don’t race much cross, I do race and enjoy competing with my friends week in and week out.

I wish I had enough left in the tank to play with Cross this year - seems like much fun - other than the upgrades and need for callups.

Jamie







_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Mike Murray

2014-11-14

CX season is not really so short. This year it went from 8/11-12/14, 125 days. For comparison:

start end days
cx 11-Aug 14-Dec 125
track 1-May 29-Aug 120
road 2-Mar 7-Sep 189
mtb 1-Mar 7-Sep 190

Mandatory upgrades is not "forced upgrades of the few who get points". Each year during cross season there are well over 100 mandatory upgrades, very many of them kicking and screaming. In addition there are the self-selected upgrades (allowable up to A). A system that does not move the fast riders out of the slower categories really is just not practical, especially given that a Cat 1 road rider can elect to start CX in the beginning category as happened at least once this year.

As for clydes, that stuff is blatant sizism, prejudice against the short. I say we go by BMI

Mike Murray

From: velodad@comcast.net [mailto:velodad@comcast.net]
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2014 09:21
To: OBRA; Mike Murray
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Retraction on ccx upgrade - no more in season forced upgrades.

I never said riders should only upgrade at the end of the year, just that we should not force them to upgrade until the end of the year. For the most part I think most want to upgrade and will do so as soon as they can. While I don���t race cross, except for a fun outing to change up my training, I think it best applies to cross because of the short season, large fields and varies series prizes. It is a good bet that anyone in the top 10 at any B or C cross race is more than good enough to upgrade, so the forced upgrades of the few who get points is silly and doesn���t make the B or C races any easier or more fun for the others. Those that truly don���t belong will be ridiculed by friends and upgrade on their own.

I like the point mentioned that in cross you can���t get a callup once you have enough points to upgrade, that would further fix the issue by self regulation, those callups are valuable. Ideas like this are why forced upgrades should be avoided, I am sure there are other fixes to the issue as well.

Upgrades for most are a wanted badge to allow them to race against stronger competitors who have more skills. For the very few affected by this rule that just want to win a series for the first and maybe only time in their career, let them. I am sure they will happily upgrade after the series and no one will notice the extra two or three riders that hung around near the front of the group for a couple of extra races.

A number of us race for many years, a single year of winning the series, even if it is the B series can give a great memory for many seasons. So what if some thought they sandbagged, anyone not winning on the pro circuit is a sandbagger. Picking to race masters instead of open, picking to race Bs instead of A at the start of the season. Not racing on the east coast UCI events, we are all a bunch of recreational sand baggers looking for a single day of glory and for those rare few, the series prize.

Being allowed a chance to crush that series leading sandbagger at the final event when he should have upgraded long ago ��� priceless.

Then we go and add single speed and clydes, talk about sandbagger categories for the point of sandbagging ��� and yes I am mostly joking, but where is my full time working father of two kids over 44 years old category. Oh and I am hill adverse, but not enough to be a clyde, so I need a muscle fiber exception to allow me to race with my correct category of clydes. Not that it would help me win a cross race, but it might get me closer.

Jamie

Sent from Windows Mail

From: OBRA
Sent: ���Thursday���, ���November��� ���13���, ���2014 ���4���:���57��� ���PM
To: OBRA

Jamie���s suggestion doesn���t make any sense for any bike racing discipline. Road and track riders not uncommonly start the season as Cat 5 and end as Cat 2. The idea of only upgrading at the end of the year fails to grasp the full scope of the issue and the number of upgrades that occur through the year. It is a bummer that people get upgraded and become ineligible for a series prize but the alternative is to have slower category fields packed with faster riders. This makes an extremely inhospitable situation for people new to the sport. Frankly, the solution is to only award series prizes for elite fields or for short series. Having a series prize over a long period for a slower field only guarantees that the winner is the fastest person that is unable to upgrade to the next faster category.

Mike Murray

From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Dan Anderson via OBRA
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 11:18 AM
To: velodad@comcast.net; C Murray; T. Kenji Sugahara; OBRA
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Retraction on ccx upgrade - no more in season forced upgrades.

Jamie, I assume you are talking about road racing, since I don't see any CX in your racing history.

Part of the reason mandatory upgrades are necessary in CX is that lots of new riders start out in the wrong category. Cat 5 roadies show up and crush the Beginner/C fields. They should get to win a few races, but then move on to the next category, instead of skewing the field for everyone else.

Also, most of the people that earn their upgrade tend to find themselves racing mid-pack in their newer category. Which tells me we need to be upgrading people as soon as they have proven that they can repeat their results in multiple races, and not waiting until next year. If you wait until the end of the season to force upgrades, you're going to have the same guys get great call-ups all season long and dominate every race, while riders who are just barely out of the points (and are ALSO probably capable of riding in the next category) are stuck racing from the back, which in CX is a significant disadvantage. And it's just not 'fun'.

If we don't like how the series standings/prizes shake out for for B/C races, we should do away with those and have prizes for people when they earn an upgrade instead. We're presented with a choice of giving a season victory to the biggest sandbagger or to the last guy to get upgraded. Why should we have to do either?

Dan


________________________________________
From: Jamie Mikami via OBRA
To: C Murray ; T. Kenji Sugahara ; OBRA
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 8:43 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Retraction on ccx upgrade - no more in season forced upgrades.

I for one would love to see the forced in season upgrade erased.

It has always stood out as silly to force a recreational racer to upgrade mid season while competing for points in a season long race. If someone���s goal is to upgrade, great let them move through the ranks and get out of the way. But if someone just wants to have fun and compete with a group of racers, let them go at it for the year and stop adding work for yourself tracking everyone all season long every week.

Do it once at the end of the year and let people compete for a season long prize if they want. Chances are this is a one time thing and once they upgrade the following year it will be much harder - at most you can sandbag for 2 years before you are an A or cat 1/2 anyways. If people want to complain about sandbaggers, let them do that and if the sandbagger doesn���t like that they can ask to be upgraded midseason to avoid the label on their own. To me this applies to all types of racing, so while I don���t race much cross, I do race and enjoy competing with my friends week in and week out.

I wish I had enough left in the tank to play with Cross this year - seems like much fun - other than the upgrades and need for callups.

Jamie







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obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


velod..@comcast.net

2014-11-14

I never said riders should only upgrade at the end of the year, just that we should not force them to upgrade until the end of the year. For the most part I think most want to upgrade and will do so as soon as they can. While I don’t race cross, except for a fun outing to change up my training, I think it best applies to cross because of the short season, large fields and varies series prizes. It is a good bet that anyone in the top 10 at any B or C cross race is more than good enough to upgrade, so the forced upgrades of the few who get points is silly and doesn’t make the B or C races any easier or more fun for the others. Those that truly don’t belong will be ridiculed by friends and upgrade on their own.

I like the point mentioned that in cross you can’t get a callup once you have enough points to upgrade, that would further fix the issue by self regulation, those callups are valuable. Ideas like this are why forced upgrades should be avoided, I am sure there are other fixes to the issue as well.

Upgrades for most are a wanted badge to allow them to race against stronger competitors who have more skills. For the very few affected by this rule that just want to win a series for the first and maybe only time in their career, let them. I am sure they will happily upgrade after the series and no one will notice the extra two or three riders that hung around near the front of the group for a couple of extra races.

A number of us race for many years, a single year of winning the series, even if it is the B series can give a great memory for many seasons. So what if some thought they sandbagged, anyone not winning on the pro circuit is a sandbagger. Picking to race masters instead of open, picking to race Bs instead of A at the start of the season. Not racing on the east coast UCI events, we are all a bunch of recreational sand baggers looking for a single day of glory and for those rare few, the series prize.

Being allowed a chance to crush that series leading sandbagger at the final event when he should have upgraded long ago … priceless.

Then we go and add single speed and clydes, talk about sandbagger categories for the point of sandbagging … and yes I am mostly joking, but where is my full time working father of two kids over 44 years old category. Oh and I am hill adverse, but not enough to be a clyde, so I need a muscle fiber exception to allow me to race with my correct category of clydes. Not that it would help me win a cross race, but it might get me closer.

Jamie

Sent from Windows Mail

From: OBRA
Sent: ‎Thursday‎, ‎November‎ ‎13‎, ‎2014 ‎4‎:‎57‎ ‎PM
To: OBRA

Jamie’s suggestion doesn’t make any sense for any bike racing discipline. Road and track riders not uncommonly start the season as Cat 5 and end as Cat 2. The idea of only upgrading at the end of the year fails to grasp the full scope of the issue and the number of upgrades that occur through the year. It is a bummer that people get upgraded and become ineligible for a series prize but the alternative is to have slower category fields packed with faster riders. This makes an extremely inhospitable situation for people new to the sport. Frankly, the solution is to only award series prizes for elite fields or for short series. Having a series prize over a long period for a slower field only guarantees that the winner is the fastest person that is unable to upgrade to the next faster category.

Mike Murray

From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Dan Anderson via OBRA
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 11:18 AM
To: velodad@comcast.net; C Murray; T. Kenji Sugahara; OBRA
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Retraction on ccx upgrade - no more in season forced upgrades.

Jamie, I assume you are talking about road racing, since I don't see any CX in your racing history.

Part of the reason mandatory upgrades are necessary in CX is that lots of new riders start out in the wrong category. Cat 5 roadies show up and crush the Beginner/C fields. They should get to win a few races, but then move on to the next category, instead of skewing the field for everyone else.

Also, most of the people that earn their upgrade tend to find themselves racing mid-pack in their newer category. Which tells me we need to be upgrading people as soon as they have proven that they can repeat their results in multiple races, and not waiting until next year. If you wait until the end of the season to force upgrades, you're going to have the same guys get great call-ups all season long and dominate every race, while riders who are just barely out of the points (and are ALSO probably capable of riding in the next category) are stuck racing from the back, which in CX is a significant disadvantage. And it's just not 'fun'.

If we don't like how the series standings/prizes shake out for for B/C races, we should do away with those and have prizes for people when they earn an upgrade instead. We're presented with a choice of giving a season victory to the biggest sandbagger or to the last guy to get upgraded. Why should we have to do either?

Dan

From: Jamie Mikami via OBRA
To: C Murray ; T. Kenji Sugahara ; OBRA
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 8:43 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Retraction on ccx upgrade - no more in season forced upgrades.

I for one would love to see the forced in season upgrade erased.

It has always stood out as silly to force a recreational racer to upgrade mid season while competing for points in a season long race. If someone’s goal is to upgrade, great let them move through the ranks and get out of the way. But if someone just wants to have fun and compete with a group of racers, let them go at it for the year and stop adding work for yourself tracking everyone all season long every week.

Do it once at the end of the year and let people compete for a season long prize if they want. Chances are this is a one time thing and once they upgrade the following year it will be much harder - at most you can sandbag for 2 years before you are an A or cat 1/2 anyways. If people want to complain about sandbaggers, let them do that and if the sandbagger doesn’t like that they can ask to be upgraded midseason to avoid the label on their own. To me this applies to all types of racing, so while I don’t race much cross, I do race and enjoy competing with my friends week in and week out.

I wish I had enough left in the tank to play with Cross this year - seems like much fun - other than the upgrades and need for callups.

Jamie

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Matt Mallet

2014-11-14

Easy way to fix the question of "forced" upgrades.
If you want to stay in your old field for the rest of the season, allow it, but revoke call up privileges.
If you just want to "compete" believe me, there is a lot more competition when you are starting at the back
of the field.


Mike Murray

2014-11-14

Jamie’s suggestion doesn’t make any sense for any bike racing discipline. Road and track riders not uncommonly start the season as Cat 5 and end as Cat 2. The idea of only upgrading at the end of the year fails to grasp the full scope of the issue and the number of upgrades that occur through the year. It is a bummer that people get upgraded and become ineligible for a series prize but the alternative is to have slower category fields packed with faster riders. This makes an extremely inhospitable situation for people new to the sport. Frankly, the solution is to only award series prizes for elite fields or for short series. Having a series prize over a long period for a slower field only guarantees that the winner is the fastest person that is unable to upgrade to the next faster category.

Mike Murray

From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Dan Anderson via OBRA
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 11:18 AM
To: velodad@comcast.net; C Murray; T. Kenji Sugahara; OBRA
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Retraction on ccx upgrade - no more in season forced upgrades.

Jamie, I assume you are talking about road racing, since I don't see any CX in your racing history.

Part of the reason mandatory upgrades are necessary in CX is that lots of new riders start out in the wrong category. Cat 5 roadies show up and crush the Beginner/C fields. They should get to win a few races, but then move on to the next category, instead of skewing the field for everyone else.

Also, most of the people that earn their upgrade tend to find themselves racing mid-pack in their newer category. Which tells me we need to be upgrading people as soon as they have proven that they can repeat their results in multiple races, and not waiting until next year. If you wait until the end of the season to force upgrades, you're going to have the same guys get great call-ups all season long and dominate every race, while riders who are just barely out of the points (and are ALSO probably capable of riding in the next category) are stuck racing from the back, which in CX is a significant disadvantage. And it's just not 'fun'.

If we don't like how the series standings/prizes shake out for for B/C races, we should do away with those and have prizes for people when they earn an upgrade instead. We're presented with a choice of giving a season victory to the biggest sandbagger or to the last guy to get upgraded. Why should we have to do either?

Dan

_____

From: Jamie Mikami via OBRA
To: C Murray ; T. Kenji Sugahara ; OBRA
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 8:43 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Retraction on ccx upgrade - no more in season forced upgrades.

I for one would love to see the forced in season upgrade erased.

It has always stood out as silly to force a recreational racer to upgrade mid season while competing for points in a season long race. If someone’s goal is to upgrade, great let them move through the ranks and get out of the way. But if someone just wants to have fun and compete with a group of racers, let them go at it for the year and stop adding work for yourself tracking everyone all season long every week.

Do it once at the end of the year and let people compete for a season long prize if they want. Chances are this is a one time thing and once they upgrade the following year it will be much harder - at most you can sandbag for 2 years before you are an A or cat 1/2 anyways. If people want to complain about sandbaggers, let them do that and if the sandbagger doesn’t like that they can ask to be upgraded midseason to avoid the label on their own. To me this applies to all types of racing, so while I don’t race much cross, I do race and enjoy competing with my friends week in and week out.

I wish I had enough left in the tank to play with Cross this year - seems like much fun - other than the upgrades and need for callups.

Jamie

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Dan Anderson

2014-11-12

Jamie, I assume you are talking about road racing, since I don't see any CX in your racing history.
Part of the reason mandatory upgrades are necessary in CX is that lots of new riders start out in the wrong category.  Cat 5 roadies show up and crush the Beginner/C fields.  They should get to win a few races, but then move on to the next category, instead of skewing the field for everyone else.
Also, most of the people that earn their upgrade tend to find themselves racing mid-pack in their newer category.  Which tells me we need to be upgrading people as soon as they have proven that they can repeat their results in multiple races, and not waiting until next year.  If you wait until the end of the season to force upgrades, you're going to have the same guys get great call-ups all season long and dominate every race, while riders who are just barely out of the points (and are ALSO probably capable of riding in the next category) are stuck racing from the back, which in CX is a significant disadvantage.  And it's just not 'fun'.  

If we don't like how the series standings/prizes shake out for for B/C races, we should do away with those and have prizes for people when they earn an upgrade instead.  We're presented with a choice of giving a season victory to the biggest sandbagger or to the last guy to get upgraded.  Why should we have to do either?
Dan

From: Jamie Mikami via OBRA
To: C Murray ; T. Kenji Sugahara ; OBRA
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 8:43 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Retraction on ccx upgrade - no more in season forced upgrades.

#yiv0129029396 #yiv0129029396 --html {}#yiv0129029396 #yiv0129029396 #yiv0129029396 --p.yiv0129029396MsoListParagraph, #yiv0129029396 li.yiv0129029396MsoListParagraph, #yiv0129029396 div.yiv0129029396MsoListParagraph {margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;}#yiv0129029396 p.yiv0129029396MsoNormal, #yiv0129029396 li.yiv0129029396MsoNormal, #yiv0129029396 div.yiv0129029396MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;}#yiv0129029396 p.yiv0129029396MsoListParagraphCxSpFirst, #yiv0129029396 li.yiv0129029396MsoListParagraphCxSpFirst, #yiv0129029396 div.yiv0129029396MsoListParagraphCxSpFirst, #yiv0129029396 p.yiv0129029396MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle, #yiv0129029396 li.yiv0129029396MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle, #yiv0129029396 div.yiv0129029396MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle, #yiv0129029396 p.yiv0129029396MsoListParagraphCxSpLast, #yiv0129029396 li.yiv0129029396MsoListParagraphCxSpLast, #yiv0129029396 div.yiv0129029396MsoListParagraphCxSpLast {margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:115%;}#yiv0129029396 I for one would love to see the forced in season upgrade erased.
It has always stood out as silly to force a recreational racer to upgrade mid season while competing for points in a season long race.  If someone’s goal is to upgrade, great let them move through the ranks and get out of the way.  But if someone just wants to have fun and compete with a group of racers, let them go at it for the year and stop adding work for yourself tracking everyone all season long every week.
Do it once at the end of the year and let people compete for a season long prize if they want.   Chances are this is a one time thing and once they upgrade the following year it will be much harder - at most you can sandbag for 2 years before you are an A or cat 1/2 anyways.  If people want to complain about sandbaggers, let them do that and if the sandbagger doesn’t like that they can ask to be upgraded midseason to avoid the label on their own.  To me this applies to all types of racing, so while I don’t race much cross, I do race and enjoy competing with my friends week in and week out.
I wish I had enough left in the tank to play with Cross this year - seems like much fun - other than the upgrades and need for callups.
Jamie

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


velod..@comcast.net

2014-11-12

I for one would love to see the forced in season upgrade erased.

It has always stood out as silly to force a recreational racer to upgrade mid season while competing for points in a season long race. If someone’s goal is to upgrade, great let them move through the ranks and get out of the way. But if someone just wants to have fun and compete with a group of racers, let them go at it for the year and stop adding work for yourself tracking everyone all season long every week.

Do it once at the end of the year and let people compete for a season long prize if they want. Chances are this is a one time thing and once they upgrade the following year it will be much harder - at most you can sandbag for 2 years before you are an A or cat 1/2 anyways. If people want to complain about sandbaggers, let them do that and if the sandbagger doesn’t like that they can ask to be upgraded midseason to avoid the label on their own. To me this applies to all types of racing, so while I don’t race much cross, I do race and enjoy competing with my friends week in and week out.

I wish I had enough left in the tank to play with Cross this year - seems like much fun - other than the upgrades and need for callups.

Jamie