rond..@spiritone.com
why can’t we all just get along?
r
From: Mike Murray via OBRA
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2014 1:23 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Retraction on ccx upgrade - no more inseason forced upgrades.
Oh, people do pay attention. Every week when Candi announces the upgrades there is a chorus of complaints. Some from people on the list. Some from people who have been counting the points for the people in front of them and want to know why those people are not on the list. There are a few thank yous from people that see the upgrade as they should, better than a win in a category they have qualified to move out of.
Mike Murray
From: Dan Anderson [mailto:danfrisbeeman@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2014 10:47
To: velodad@comcast.net; Mike Murray
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Retraction on ccx upgrade - no more in season forced upgrades.
"For the most part I think most want to upgrade and will do so as soon as they can." Ah, if only that were true. I think most people don't keep track, and don't even notice when Candi has announced their upgrade. I noticed someone once who had SIXTEEN top ten finishes (TWELVE in the top 5) before they moved from B to A. And one year a guy who was a Cat 4 roadie crushed the Cat 3 short track field from April to August, won the Cat 3 state championship and the Cat 3 national championship. Cat 3 national championship?! Seriously? That's like the sandbagging championships of the universe. Their friends don't ridicule them -- they defend them, despite the upgrade guidelines.
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From: Jamie Mikami via OBRA
To: OBRA ; Mike Murray
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2014 9:20 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Retraction on ccx upgrade - no more in season forced upgrades.
I never said riders should only upgrade at the end of the year, just that we should not force them to upgrade until the end of the year. For the most part I think most want to upgrade and will do so as soon as they can. While I don’t race cross, except for a fun outing to change up my training, I think it best applies to cross because of the short season, large fields and varies series prizes. It is a good bet that anyone in the top 10 at any B or C cross race is more than good enough to upgrade, so the forced upgrades of the few who get points is silly and doesn’t make the B or C races any easier or more fun for the others. Those that truly don’t belong will be ridiculed by friends and upgrade on their own.
I like the point mentioned that in cross you can’t get a callup once you have enough points to upgrade, that would further fix the issue by self regulation, those callups are valuable. Ideas like this are why forced upgrades should be avoided, I am sure there are other fixes to the issue as well.
Upgrades for most are a wanted badge to allow them to race against stronger competitors who have more skills. For the very few affected by this rule that just want to win a series for the first and maybe only time in their career, let them. I am sure they will happily upgrade after the series and no one will notice the extra two or three riders that hung around near the front of the group for a couple of extra races.
A number of us race for many years, a single year of winning the series, even if it is the B series can give a great memory for many seasons. So what if some thought they sandbagged, anyone not winning on the pro circuit is a sandbagger. Picking to race masters instead of open, picking to race Bs instead of A at the start of the season. Not racing on the east coast UCI events, we are all a bunch of recreational sand baggers looking for a single day of glory and for those rare few, the series prize.
Being allowed a chance to crush that series leading sandbagger at the final event when he should have upgraded long ago … priceless.
Then we go and add single speed and clydes, talk about sandbagger categories for the point of sandbagging … and yes I am mostly joking, but where is my full time working father of two kids over 44 years old category. Oh and I am hill adverse, but not enough to be a clyde, so I need a muscle fiber exception to allow me to race with my correct category of clydes. Not that it would help me win a cross race, but it might get me closer.
Jamie
Sent from Windows Mail
From: OBRA
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2014 4:57 PM
To: OBRA
Jamie’s suggestion doesn’t make any sense for any bike racing discipline. Road and track riders not uncommonly start the season as Cat 5 and end as Cat 2. The idea of only upgrading at the end of the year fails to grasp the full scope of the issue and the number of upgrades that occur through the year. It is a bummer that people get upgraded and become ineligible for a series prize but the alternative is to have slower category fields packed with faster riders. This makes an extremely inhospitable situation for people new to the sport. Frankly, the solution is to only award series prizes for elite fields or for short series. Having a series prize over a long period for a slower field only guarantees that the winner is the fastest person that is unable to upgrade to the next faster category.
Mike Murray
From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Dan Anderson via OBRA
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 11:18 AM
To: velodad@comcast.net; C Murray; T. Kenji Sugahara; OBRA
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Retraction on ccx upgrade - no more in season forced upgrades.
Jamie, I assume you are talking about road racing, since I don't see any CX in your racing history.
Part of the reason mandatory upgrades are necessary in CX is that lots of new riders start out in the wrong category. Cat 5 roadies show up and crush the Beginner/C fields. They should get to win a few races, but then move on to the next category, instead of skewing the field for everyone else.
Also, most of the people that earn their upgrade tend to find themselves racing mid-pack in their newer category. Which tells me we need to be upgrading people as soon as they have proven that they can repeat their results in multiple races, and not waiting until next year. If you wait until the end of the season to force upgrades, you're going to have the same guys get great call-ups all season long and dominate every race, while riders who are just barely out of the points (and are ALSO probably capable of riding in the next category) are stuck racing from the back, which in CX is a significant disadvantage. And it's just not 'fun'.
If we don't like how the series standings/prizes shake out for for B/C races, we should do away with those and have prizes for people when they earn an upgrade instead. We're presented with a choice of giving a season victory to the biggest sandbagger or to the last guy to get upgraded. Why should we have to do either?
Dan
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From: Jamie Mikami via OBRA
To: C Murray ; T. Kenji Sugahara ; OBRA
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 8:43 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Retraction on ccx upgrade - no more in season forced upgrades.
I for one would love to see the forced in season upgrade erased.
It has always stood out as silly to force a recreational racer to upgrade mid season while competing for points in a season long race. If someone’s goal is to upgrade, great let them move through the ranks and get out of the way. But if someone just wants to have fun and compete with a group of racers, let them go at it for the year and stop adding work for yourself tracking everyone all season long every week.
Do it once at the end of the year and let people compete for a season long prize if they want. Chances are this is a one time thing and once they upgrade the following year it will be much harder - at most you can sandbag for 2 years before you are an A or cat 1/2 anyways. If people want to complain about sandbaggers, let them do that and if the sandbagger doesn’t like that they can ask to be upgraded midseason to avoid the label on their own. To me this applies to all types of racing, so while I don’t race much cross, I do race and enjoy competing with my friends week in and week out.
I wish I had enough left in the tank to play with Cross this year - seems like much fun - other than the upgrades and need for callups.
Jamie
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