Road Cornering Safety

Dan H

2015-07-07

Another peeve of mine: (pavement, not dirt) I see rear brake pads on road
bikes wearing out 3X faster than the front.
That's backwards.

On Wed, July 8, 2015 12:43 am, Dan H via OBRA wrote:
> We were talking about pavement. Loose stuff is a whole 'nuther deal.
>
>
> On Wed, July 8, 2015 12:23 am, Ben via OBRA wrote:
>
>> But what about gravel? I'd love to be able to watch out 50m ahead and
>> already have a game plan for hoe I'm going to rip around that little
>> bulge or deal with that dip in the corner, but I'm always staring 5m
>> ahead of my front wheel dodging all the gravel dickwads kick up into
>> the road cutting the corner in their wannabe rat racers and bubbatrucks.
>> Rocky point anyone?
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>>
>>
>
>
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>


I'm also talking about pavement- with gravel strewn about it from careless drivers.

All the big climbs/descents I do on any regular basis are contaminated. You spend more energy dodging debris than hitting the turn


Dan H

2015-07-07

We were talking about pavement. Loose stuff is a whole 'nuther deal.

On Wed, July 8, 2015 12:23 am, Ben via OBRA wrote:
> But what about gravel? I'd love to be able to watch out 50m ahead and
> already have a game plan for hoe I'm going to rip around that little
> bulge or deal with that dip in the corner, but I'm always staring 5m
> ahead of my front wheel dodging all the gravel dickwads kick up into the
> road cutting the corner in their wannabe rat racers and bubbatrucks.
> Rocky point anyone?
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>


Dan H

2015-07-07

Iv'e been racing bicycles since the early 70's starting with BMX then road
racing starting in 1974. The second cyclocross I competed in was the
Nationals at Skinner's Butte in 1979. I started racing on the velodrome in
the early 80's but I didn't start to get good at cornering a bicycle until
I read an article by Davis Phinney in the 90's and began to practice his
advice. The point is I've had more cycling experience than most people on
this list have been alive.
In recent years, I've taken up motorcycle road racing. I thought my
cycling experience would give me an edge. It did not. I learned that
bicycle cornering skills are adaptable but not transferable to motorcycle
cornering (at high speed).
The basic principals are the same but if you try to high speed corner a
bicycle like a motorcycle or the other way around, I think you will
encounter some problems. I'm talking about extremes here. Most people can
corner a bicycle or a motorcycle safely at moderate speeds due to the
built in geometry. When you begin to push the extremes. things change a
bit. You wouldn't hang off a bicycle knee out with weight on the inside
peg the same way you would a motorcycle.
What Splinter says about Keith Code is correct. There is a lot cyclists
can learn about cornering from professional motorcyclists but some things
don't apply both ways.

On Tue, July 7, 2015 11:04 pm, john via OBRA wrote:
> Notes/reminders from an ever getting older road cyclist.
>
>
> 1. In my humble opinion, High speed road cornering is a different skill
> set than other types of bicycle cornering. Being great bicycle "handler"
> at BMX, Track, Cyclocross, MTB, Polo, etc does not necessarily give you
> the skills to safely corner at high speeds out on the road.
>
> 2. I would even say, based on my own experience, being an experienced
> criterium racer doesn't make you safe at high speed cornering. I started
> racing crits as teenager starting 1989... and 10 years later or so, my
> thinking that I was great at cornering had my tires inches away at 50 mph
> from jagged rocks coming down Mary's peak. I probably would not have
> survived had I gone down.
>
> 3. In my opinion, a great way to learn about high speed cornering is to
> take a motorcycle class. I did this in ~2007. Went into that class of
> course not thinking about cornering, except when the the subject came up,
> and then of course I am an expert. Well about the 3rd time around the
> little practice course with the instructor yelling that I wasn't looking
> into the corner (and me thinking "how am I Not Looking into the
> corner??") finally made me realize that maybe she was right and I was
> wrong and that I better start listening and re-evaluate where my eyes and
> head were pointed. She wanted my eyes another 90 degrees over into the
> corner. So not only did I learn that maybe I didn't know about high speed
> cornering but also learned how to critique after bungling a corner (as I
> did once on the motorbike going up Germantown.. right into the other lane
> with Thank God no traffic at the time !, all it takes is once..).
>
>
> 4. The big thing is, you have to really work on looking hard / putting
> your head hard over into a corner. If you just kind of look into the
> corner / look at the road, or at an object on the road, probably NOT
> good enough, you may bungle the corner. Even if you are going relatively
> slow, and you panic and put on brakes, which can lock up your arms, making
> it difficult to instinctively counter-steer, you may go straight off the
> road, hopefully not into tree.
>
> 5. You have to trust that at almost _any_ speed you can reach on your
> two wheel 'bike', if you look way into the corner properly, counter-steer,
> come out of the saddle a bit to distribute weight on both wheels, your
> bike WILL stick and you will make the corner. If you panic or shift your
> eyes to the road, watch out ! You need to immediately: suppress the
> panic, get your eyes way back into the corner / counter-steer and get your
> hands OFF the brakes. _______________________________________________
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> obra@list.obra.org http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>


Elizabeth Gardiner

2015-07-07

Rocky Point is for climbing. Problem solved. :)

On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 11:53 AM, Ben via OBRA wrote:

> But what about gravel? I'd love to be able to watch out 50m ahead and
> already have a game plan for hoe I'm going to rip around that little bulge
> or deal with that dip in the corner, but I'm always staring 5m ahead of my
> front wheel dodging all the gravel dickwads kick up into the road cutting
> the corner in their wannabe rat racers and bubbatrucks. Rocky point anyone?
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>


But what about gravel? I'd love to be able to watch out 50m ahead and already have a game plan for hoe I'm going to rip around that little bulge or deal with that dip in the corner, but I'm always staring 5m ahead of my front wheel dodging all the gravel dickwads kick up into the road cutting the corner in their wannabe rat racers and bubbatrucks. Rocky point anyone?


Robert

2015-07-07

All you need to do is race mass start track races. You will learn bike handling very quickly...

On July 7, 2015 11:11:32 AM PDT, Splinter Wrenn via OBRA wrote:
>Amen! Target fixation (looking at what you don't want to hit) results
>in creating many of the worst crashes.
>
>"Look where you want to go & your mind/body and the bike will get you
>there." Keith Code (author of "A Twist of the Wrist" and founder of the
>California Superbike School
>
>Splinter
>
>"I find that a great part of the information I have, was acquired by
>looking up something and finding something else on the way." – Franklin
>P. Adams
>
>Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Jul 7, 2015, at 10:34 AM, john via OBRA
>wrote:
>>
>> Notes/reminders from an ever getting older road cyclist.
>>
>> 1. In my humble opinion, High speed road cornering is a different
>skill set than other types of bicycle cornering. Being great bicycle
>"handler" at BMX, Track, Cyclocross, MTB, Polo, etc does not
>necessarily give you the skills to safely corner at high speeds out on
>the road.
>>
>> 2. I would even say, based on my own experience, being an
>experienced criterium racer doesn't make you safe at high speed
>cornering. I started racing crits as teenager starting 1989... and 10
>years later or so, my thinking that I was great at cornering had my
>tires inches away at 50 mph from jagged rocks coming down Mary's peak.
>I probably would not have survived had I gone down.
>>
>> 3. In my opinion, a great way to learn about high speed cornering is
>to take a motorcycle class. I did this in ~2007. Went into that class
>of course not thinking about cornering, except when the the subject
>came up, and then of course I am an expert. Well about the 3rd time
>around the little practice course with the instructor yelling that I
>wasn't looking into the corner (and me thinking "how am I Not Looking
>into the corner??") finally made me realize that maybe she was right
>and I was wrong and that I better start listening and re-evaluate where
>my eyes and head were pointed. She wanted my eyes another 90 degrees
>over into the corner.
>> So not only did I learn that maybe I didn't know about high speed
>cornering but also learned how to critique after bungling a corner (as
>I did once on the motorbike going up Germantown.. right into the other
>lane with Thank God no traffic at the time !, all it takes is once..).
>
>>
>> 4. The big thing is, you have to really work on looking hard /
>putting your head hard over into a corner. If you just kind of look
>into the corner / look at the road, or at an object on the road,
>probably NOT good enough, you may bungle the corner. Even if you are
>going relatively slow, and you panic and put on brakes, which can lock
>up your arms, making it difficult to instinctively counter-steer, you
>may go straight off the road, hopefully not into tree.
>>
>> 5. You have to trust that at almost _any_ speed you can reach on
>your two wheel 'bike', if you look way into the corner properly,
>counter-steer, come out of the saddle a bit to distribute weight on
>both wheels, your bike WILL stick and you will make the corner. If you
>panic or shift your eyes to the road, watch out ! You need to
>immediately: suppress the panic, get your eyes way back into the
>corner / counter-steer and get your hands OFF the brakes.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

--
Sent by an Android >^•^<


Splinter Wrenn

2015-07-07

Amen! Target fixation (looking at what you don't want to hit) results in creating many of the worst crashes.

"Look where you want to go & your mind/body and the bike will get you there." Keith Code (author of "A Twist of the Wrist" and founder of the California Superbike School

Splinter

"I find that a great part of the information I have, was acquired by looking up something and finding something else on the way." ��� Franklin P. Adams

Sent from my iPad

> On Jul 7, 2015, at 10:34 AM, john via OBRA wrote:
>
> Notes/reminders from an ever getting older road cyclist.
>
> 1. In my humble opinion, High speed road cornering is a different skill set than other types of bicycle cornering. Being great bicycle "handler" at BMX, Track, Cyclocross, MTB, Polo, etc does not necessarily give you the skills to safely corner at high speeds out on the road.
>
> 2. I would even say, based on my own experience, being an experienced criterium racer doesn't make you safe at high speed cornering. I started racing crits as teenager starting 1989... and 10 years later or so, my thinking that I was great at cornering had my tires inches away at 50 mph from jagged rocks coming down Mary's peak. I probably would not have survived had I gone down.
>
> 3. In my opinion, a great way to learn about high speed cornering is to take a motorcycle class. I did this in ~2007. Went into that class of course not thinking about cornering, except when the the subject came up, and then of course I am an expert. Well about the 3rd time around the little practice course with the instructor yelling that I wasn't looking into the corner (and me thinking "how am I Not Looking into the corner??") finally made me realize that maybe she was right and I was wrong and that I better start listening and re-evaluate where my eyes and head were pointed. She wanted my eyes another 90 degrees over into the corner.
> So not only did I learn that maybe I didn't know about high speed cornering but also learned how to critique after bungling a corner (as I did once on the motorbike going up Germantown.. right into the other lane with Thank God no traffic at the time !, all it takes is once..).
>
> 4. The big thing is, you have to really work on looking hard / putting your head hard over into a corner. If you just kind of look into the corner / look at the road, or at an object on the road, probably NOT good enough, you may bungle the corner. Even if you are going relatively slow, and you panic and put on brakes, which can lock up your arms, making it difficult to instinctively counter-steer, you may go straight off the road, hopefully not into tree.
>
> 5. You have to trust that at almost _any_ speed you can reach on your two wheel 'bike', if you look way into the corner properly, counter-steer, come out of the saddle a bit to distribute weight on both wheels, your bike WILL stick and you will make the corner. If you panic or shift your eyes to the road, watch out ! You need to immediately: suppress the panic, get your eyes way back into the corner / counter-steer and get your hands OFF the brakes.
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Notes/reminders from an ever getting older road cyclist.

1. In my humble opinion, High speed road cornering is a different skill set
than other types of bicycle cornering. Being great bicycle "handler" at
BMX, Track, Cyclocross, MTB, Polo, etc does not necessarily give you the
skills to safely corner at high speeds out on the road.

2. I would even say, based on my own experience, being an experienced
criterium racer doesn't make you safe at high speed cornering. I started
racing crits as teenager starting 1989... and 10 years later or so, my
thinking that I was great at cornering had my tires inches away at 50 mph
from jagged rocks coming down Mary's peak. I probably would not have
survived had I gone down.

3. In my opinion, a great way to learn about high speed cornering is to
take a motorcycle class. I did this in ~2007. Went into that class of
course not thinking about cornering, except when the the subject came up,
and then of course I am an expert. Well about the 3rd time around the
little practice course with the instructor yelling that I wasn't looking
into the corner (and me thinking "how am I Not Looking into the corner??")
finally made me realize that maybe she was right and I was wrong and that I
better start listening and re-evaluate where my eyes and head were pointed.
She wanted my eyes another 90 degrees over into the corner.
So not only did I learn that maybe I didn't know about high speed cornering
but also learned how to critique after bungling a corner (as I did once on
the motorbike going up Germantown.. right into the other lane with Thank
God no traffic at the time !, all it takes is once..).

4. The big thing is, you have to really work on looking hard / putting
your head hard over into a corner. If you just kind of look into the
corner / look at the road, or at an object on the road, probably NOT good
enough, you may bungle the corner. Even if you are going relatively slow,
and you panic and put on brakes, which can lock up your arms, making it
difficult to instinctively counter-steer, you may go straight off the
road, hopefully not into tree.

5. You have to trust that at almost _any_ speed you can reach on your two
wheel 'bike', if you look way into the corner properly, counter-steer, come
out of the saddle a bit to distribute weight on both wheels, your bike WILL
stick and you will make the corner. If you panic or shift your eyes to the
road, watch out ! You need to immediately: suppress the panic, get your
eyes way back into the corner / counter-steer and get your hands OFF the
brakes.