john

The older I get the more respect and admiration I have for older riders.
That still race. Its an impressive feat. You only start to realize that
when you get older yourself.

On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 1:15 PM, via OBRA wrote:

> WOW! I sure am glad there are so many people who really have this whole
> "life" thing figured out. And each one of you seem to feel so right. I
> guess I will just wait another couple of hours to go for a ride (still too
> cool at midday). I think my heart rate spiked this morning when I was
> hanging drywall. God! Life is so confusing. I was trying my normal set
> of interval hanging.
> I bet the Velodrome is toasty this afternoon!
> ronnie
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Eric Aldinger via OBRA
> Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2015 10:02 PM
> To: Michael Medina
> Cc: OBRA remailer
>
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] endurance athletes and heart health
>
> Who really cares if we die sooner.
>
> On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 6:31 PM, Michael Medina via OBRA
> wrote:
>
>> Mike Murray,
>>
>> Indeed there does seem to be evidence that endurance athletes have more
>> electrical disturbance, however I'm wondering if endurance athletes are
>> either more aware of the rhythms and are also more aware of the symptoms.
>> Are there really control groups and enough data for this, or are the
>> squeaky
>> wheels getting the grease regardless of the best efforts of science? And
>> endurance athletes can be very squeaky wheels when the ticker has an
>> issue.
>>
>> Michael Medina
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 6:07 PM Mike Murray via OBRA
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I would hate to disappoint.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The Velo article was of particular interest given that I was wearing an
>>> arrhythmia monitor at the time it arrived. The article was interesting
>>> but
>>> long on anecdotes and short on data.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It is important to recognize that heart problems can be caused by
>>> decreased blood flow, abnormal rhythms or decreased heart muscle
>>> function.
>>> Although these problems can be interrelated they are not all the same.
>>> The
>>> Velo article addresses irregular rhythms, not the more common blood flow
>>> issue that causes most heart attacks.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There is considerable evidence to suggest a correlation between irregular
>>> heart rhythms and endurance exercise. It is of note that there seems to
>>> be
>>> a dose response relationship. Both more exercise and high intensity
>>> exercise are both independently correlated with greater risk of rhythm
>>> issues. Most of the irregular rhythms are generally not life threatening
>>> (unlike the V-tach described in the Velo article). Some studies include
>>> slow rates, which are arguably normal in endurance athletes, although
>>> generally they are only looking at symptomatic people. Overall the risk
>>> is
>>> not high but it is greater than for the non-exercising population. Age
>>> also
>>> increases the risk of arrhythmia but the risk in endurance athletes is in
>>> addition to the age related risk. Frankly this is not really something
>>> that
>>> most people should worry about. You are more likely to have problems due
>>> to
>>> falling off your bike. If you are having episodes of irregular heartbeat,
>>> dizziness or passing out you should get an investigation but most people
>>> can
>>> ignore this.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> For those interested in my personal issue; I am having irregular rhythms.
>>> Undoubtedly they are not making me any faster but there is not really
>>> anything that needs to be done about them at this point and they should
>>> not
>>> prohibit me from continuing to race or exercise.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Mike Murray
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Splinter
>>> Wrenn
>>> via OBRA
>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2015 17:07
>>>
>>>
>>> To: Thom Schoenborn
>>> Cc: OBRA
>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] endurance athletes and heart health
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Waiting for Dr. Mike Murray to weigh in on this one. He has some very
>>> recent first hand experiences with these issues.
>>>
>>> Splinter
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> “The scientist is not a person who gives the right answers, he is one who
>>> asks the right questions.” – Claude Levi-Strauss
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 29, 2015, at 10:27 AM, Thom Schoenborn via OBRA
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> If you've had weird flutters in your chest, perhaps you've wondered why.
>>> Kinda, sorta, potentially scary stuff for long-time endurance athletes.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://velonews.competitor.com/cycling-extremes
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm sure the doctors on the list will have more informed opinions, but
>>> having a little education and awareness can't hurt. (You know, unless
>>> this
>>> article scares you out of living a healthy lifestyle and you die with
>>> your
>>> hands and face covered in Nutella.)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -Thom
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Eric Aldinger
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

rond..@spiritone.com

WOW! I sure am glad there are so many people who really have this whole
"life" thing figured out. And each one of you seem to feel so right. I
guess I will just wait another couple of hours to go for a ride (still too
cool at midday). I think my heart rate spiked this morning when I was
hanging drywall. God! Life is so confusing. I was trying my normal set of
interval hanging.
I bet the Velodrome is toasty this afternoon!
ronnie

-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Aldinger via OBRA
Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2015 10:02 PM
To: Michael Medina
Cc: OBRA remailer
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] endurance athletes and heart health

Who really cares if we die sooner.

On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 6:31 PM, Michael Medina via OBRA
wrote:
> Mike Murray,
>
> Indeed there does seem to be evidence that endurance athletes have more
> electrical disturbance, however I'm wondering if endurance athletes are
> either more aware of the rhythms and are also more aware of the symptoms.
> Are there really control groups and enough data for this, or are the
> squeaky
> wheels getting the grease regardless of the best efforts of science? And
> endurance athletes can be very squeaky wheels when the ticker has an
> issue.
>
> Michael Medina
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 6:07 PM Mike Murray via OBRA
> wrote:
>>
>> I would hate to disappoint.
>>
>>
>>
>> The Velo article was of particular interest given that I was wearing an
>> arrhythmia monitor at the time it arrived. The article was interesting
>> but
>> long on anecdotes and short on data.
>>
>>
>>
>> It is important to recognize that heart problems can be caused by
>> decreased blood flow, abnormal rhythms or decreased heart muscle
>> function.
>> Although these problems can be interrelated they are not all the same.
>> The
>> Velo article addresses irregular rhythms, not the more common blood flow
>> issue that causes most heart attacks.
>>
>>
>>
>> There is considerable evidence to suggest a correlation between irregular
>> heart rhythms and endurance exercise. It is of note that there seems to
>> be
>> a dose response relationship. Both more exercise and high intensity
>> exercise are both independently correlated with greater risk of rhythm
>> issues. Most of the irregular rhythms are generally not life threatening
>> (unlike the V-tach described in the Velo article). Some studies include
>> slow rates, which are arguably normal in endurance athletes, although
>> generally they are only looking at symptomatic people. Overall the risk
>> is
>> not high but it is greater than for the non-exercising population. Age
>> also
>> increases the risk of arrhythmia but the risk in endurance athletes is in
>> addition to the age related risk. Frankly this is not really something
>> that
>> most people should worry about. You are more likely to have problems due
>> to
>> falling off your bike. If you are having episodes of irregular heartbeat,
>> dizziness or passing out you should get an investigation but most people
>> can
>> ignore this.
>>
>>
>>
>> For those interested in my personal issue; I am having irregular rhythms.
>> Undoubtedly they are not making me any faster but there is not really
>> anything that needs to be done about them at this point and they should
>> not
>> prohibit me from continuing to race or exercise.
>>
>>
>>
>> Mike Murray
>>
>>
>>
>> From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Splinter
>> Wrenn
>> via OBRA
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2015 17:07
>>
>>
>> To: Thom Schoenborn
>> Cc: OBRA
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] endurance athletes and heart health
>>
>>
>>
>> Waiting for Dr. Mike Murray to weigh in on this one. He has some very
>> recent first hand experiences with these issues.
>>
>> Splinter
>>
>>
>>
>> ���The scientist is not a person who gives the right answers, he is one who
>> asks the right questions.��� ��� Claude Levi-Strauss
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>> On Jul 29, 2015, at 10:27 AM, Thom Schoenborn via OBRA
>> wrote:
>>
>> If you've had weird flutters in your chest, perhaps you've wondered why.
>> Kinda, sorta, potentially scary stuff for long-time endurance athletes.
>>
>>
>>
>> http://velonews.competitor.com/cycling-extremes
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm sure the doctors on the list will have more informed opinions, but
>> having a little education and awareness can't hurt. (You know, unless
>> this
>> article scares you out of living a healthy lifestyle and you die with
>> your
>> hands and face covered in Nutella.)
>>
>>
>>
>> -Thom
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

--
Eric Aldinger
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Eric Aldinger

Who really cares if we die sooner.

On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 6:31 PM, Michael Medina via OBRA
wrote:
> Mike Murray,
>
> Indeed there does seem to be evidence that endurance athletes have more
> electrical disturbance, however I'm wondering if endurance athletes are
> either more aware of the rhythms and are also more aware of the symptoms.
> Are there really control groups and enough data for this, or are the squeaky
> wheels getting the grease regardless of the best efforts of science? And
> endurance athletes can be very squeaky wheels when the ticker has an issue.
>
> Michael Medina
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 6:07 PM Mike Murray via OBRA
> wrote:
>>
>> I would hate to disappoint.
>>
>>
>>
>> The Velo article was of particular interest given that I was wearing an
>> arrhythmia monitor at the time it arrived. The article was interesting but
>> long on anecdotes and short on data.
>>
>>
>>
>> It is important to recognize that heart problems can be caused by
>> decreased blood flow, abnormal rhythms or decreased heart muscle function.
>> Although these problems can be interrelated they are not all the same. The
>> Velo article addresses irregular rhythms, not the more common blood flow
>> issue that causes most heart attacks.
>>
>>
>>
>> There is considerable evidence to suggest a correlation between irregular
>> heart rhythms and endurance exercise. It is of note that there seems to be
>> a dose response relationship. Both more exercise and high intensity
>> exercise are both independently correlated with greater risk of rhythm
>> issues. Most of the irregular rhythms are generally not life threatening
>> (unlike the V-tach described in the Velo article). Some studies include
>> slow rates, which are arguably normal in endurance athletes, although
>> generally they are only looking at symptomatic people. Overall the risk is
>> not high but it is greater than for the non-exercising population. Age also
>> increases the risk of arrhythmia but the risk in endurance athletes is in
>> addition to the age related risk. Frankly this is not really something that
>> most people should worry about. You are more likely to have problems due to
>> falling off your bike. If you are having episodes of irregular heartbeat,
>> dizziness or passing out you should get an investigation but most people can
>> ignore this.
>>
>>
>>
>> For those interested in my personal issue; I am having irregular rhythms.
>> Undoubtedly they are not making me any faster but there is not really
>> anything that needs to be done about them at this point and they should not
>> prohibit me from continuing to race or exercise.
>>
>>
>>
>> Mike Murray
>>
>>
>>
>> From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Splinter Wrenn
>> via OBRA
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2015 17:07
>>
>>
>> To: Thom Schoenborn
>> Cc: OBRA
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] endurance athletes and heart health
>>
>>
>>
>> Waiting for Dr. Mike Murray to weigh in on this one. He has some very
>> recent first hand experiences with these issues.
>>
>> Splinter
>>
>>
>>
>> ���The scientist is not a person who gives the right answers, he is one who
>> asks the right questions.��� ��� Claude Levi-Strauss
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>> On Jul 29, 2015, at 10:27 AM, Thom Schoenborn via OBRA
>> wrote:
>>
>> If you've had weird flutters in your chest, perhaps you've wondered why.
>> Kinda, sorta, potentially scary stuff for long-time endurance athletes.
>>
>>
>>
>> http://velonews.competitor.com/cycling-extremes
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm sure the doctors on the list will have more informed opinions, but
>> having a little education and awareness can't hurt. (You know, unless this
>> article scares you out of living a healthy lifestyle and you die with your
>> hands and face covered in Nutella.)
>>
>>
>>
>> -Thom
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

--
Eric Aldinger

Splinter Wrenn

No Viagra in the discussion, how did that happen? We are talking Masters, right?

Splinter

"I find that a great part of the information I have, was acquired by looking up something and finding something else on the way." – Franklin P. Adams

Sent from my iPad

> On Jul 29, 2015, at 7:48 PM, Robert via OBRA wrote:
>
> Wow....good thing we didn't bring up chem trails, thimerosol , the loch ness monster, and alien abductions....but we did include lipitor?
>
>> On July 29, 2015 7:30:08 PM PDT, Mike Murray via OBRA wrote:
>> Not "anything" but "many things". One needs to be careful when making broad
>> generalizations. "Random uninformed lies" is a bit harsh. "Recommendations
>> based on inadequate data" would be a bit more accurate. In this particular
>> issue, since there is no drug therapy involved, there is not much
>> pharmaceutical funding to be expected. Similar care should be applied in
>> evaluating dietary recommendations and estimates of doctor caused deaths.
>>
>> I definitely agree that the risk that endurance exercise will kill you, all
>> causes, is worth it.
>>
>> Mike Murray
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of dacrizzow via
>> OBRA
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2015 19:15
>> To: obra@list.obra.org
>> Subject: [OBRA Chat] endurance athletes and heart health
>>
>> first...anything the medical community says is either slanted toward studies
>> paid for by pharmacutical companies or just random uninformed lies.
>> second...diet. most cyclists I've known tend to eat pretty healthy but still
>> include flour, sugar, too much meat and not nearly enough REAL veggies. real
>> veggies being the ones that are hard to chew, swallow and (at first) taste
>> like crap. so maybe they're "studies" didn't include athletes that actually
>> follow a more disciplined diet. beside cops and politicians, doctors are
>> probably responsible for more deaths in this country than any other group.
>> prescription drugs anyone?....ride your bike, enjoy life, then die. i would
>> much rather drop dead on a 50 mile run in the mountains than sitting on a
>> couch watching breaking bad reruns. oh yeah, lipitor is for losers
>>
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> --
> Sent by an Android >^•^<
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

mattic..@oatmail.org

Also, Mike finished ahead of me in the race last night, so he's
probably right.

Even with his f'd up ticker.

On 29.07.2015 20:28, Mike Murray via OBRA wrote:
> I hate to put too fine a point on it but any doctor who says diet has
> nothing to do with heart disease is a moron. No rational person
> could buy
> into this premise. The evidence is overwhelming.
>
> Mike Murray
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of dacrizzow
> via
> OBRA
> Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2015 20:17
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] endurance athletes and heart health
>
> awesome. so questioning medical/ pharmaceutical studies are put in
> the same
> category as monsters and chem trails? you're right. "many things"
> would be
> more truthful but it's getting harder to believe anything put out by
> the
> medical community these days. i've had three doctors tell me diet has
> nothing to do with heart disease. one was my own physician whom after
> my
> diet change showed better results than when i was taking meds claimed
> there
> needs to be a study to prove it was the diet. i thought the blood
> work was
> the study. another doctor who's a friend (also a runner/ cyclist)
> also
> claimed there had been no proof that a plant based diet can reverse
> heart
> disease. there's been nothing BUT proof. anyway, we're getting off
> track.
> wear and tear on the body but it doesn't have to. training doesn't
> stop when
> you get off the bike, it's a 24 hour endeavor.....and heart rate
> monitors
> are for dorks. eat green, living foods, put in lots of miles, stretch
> and
> laugh. and sex...have lots of sex
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

johnfforbes@comcast.net

Well said Mike

Sent by MailWise – See your emails as clean, short chats.

-------- Original Message --------
From: Mike Murray via OBRA
Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2015 08:28 PM
To: OBRA remailer
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] endurance athletes and heart health

>I hate to put too fine a point on it but any doctor who says diet has
>nothing to do with heart disease is a moron. No rational person could buy
>into this premise. The evidence is overwhelming.
>
>Mike Murray
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of dacrizzow via
>OBRA
>Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2015 20:17
>To: obra@list.obra.org
>Subject: [OBRA Chat] endurance athletes and heart health
>
>awesome. so questioning medical/ pharmaceutical studies are put in the same
>category as monsters and chem trails? you're right. "many things" would be
>more truthful but it's getting harder to believe anything put out by the
>medical community these days. i've had three doctors tell me diet has
>nothing to do with heart disease. one was my own physician whom after my
>diet change showed better results than when i was taking meds claimed there
>needs to be a study to prove it was the diet. i thought the blood work was
>the study. another doctor who's a friend (also a runner/ cyclist) also
>claimed there had been no proof that a plant based diet can reverse heart
>disease. there's been nothing BUT proof. anyway, we're getting off track.
>wear and tear on the body but it doesn't have to. training doesn't stop when
>you get off the bike, it's a 24 hour endeavor.....and heart rate monitors
>are for dorks. eat green, living foods, put in lots of miles, stretch and
>laugh. and sex...have lots of sex
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Mike Murray

I hate to put too fine a point on it but any doctor who says diet has
nothing to do with heart disease is a moron. No rational person could buy
into this premise. The evidence is overwhelming.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of dacrizzow via
OBRA
Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2015 20:17
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] endurance athletes and heart health

awesome. so questioning medical/ pharmaceutical studies are put in the same
category as monsters and chem trails? you're right. "many things" would be
more truthful but it's getting harder to believe anything put out by the
medical community these days. i've had three doctors tell me diet has
nothing to do with heart disease. one was my own physician whom after my
diet change showed better results than when i was taking meds claimed there
needs to be a study to prove it was the diet. i thought the blood work was
the study. another doctor who's a friend (also a runner/ cyclist) also
claimed there had been no proof that a plant based diet can reverse heart
disease. there's been nothing BUT proof. anyway, we're getting off track.
wear and tear on the body but it doesn't have to. training doesn't stop when
you get off the bike, it's a 24 hour endeavor.....and heart rate monitors
are for dorks. eat green, living foods, put in lots of miles, stretch and
laugh. and sex...have lots of sex
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

dacrizzow

awesome. so questioning medical/ pharmaceutical studies are put in the same category as monsters and chem trails? you're right. "many things" would be more truthful but it's getting harder to believe anything put out by the medical community these days. i've had three doctors tell me diet has nothing to do with heart disease. one was my own physician whom after my diet change showed better results than when i was taking meds claimed there needs to be a study to prove it was the diet. i thought the blood work was the study. another doctor who's a friend (also a runner/ cyclist) also claimed there had been no proof that a plant based diet can reverse heart disease. there's been nothing BUT proof. anyway, we're getting off track. wear and tear on the body but it doesn't have to. training doesn't stop when you get off the bike, it's a 24 hour endeavor.....and heart rate monitors are for dorks. eat green, living foods, put in lots of miles, stretch and laugh. and sex...have lots of sex

Michael Medina

So I think the studies basically conclude that people prone to heart
arrhythmias tend to become endurance athletes.
On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 19:50 Greg Eyerly via OBRA
wrote:

> The good news is I hear there are cyclocross clinics offered at PIR in
> August!
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jul 29, 2015, at 7:48 PM, "Robert via OBRA" wrote:
>
> Wow....good thing we didn't bring up chem trails, thimerosol , the loch
> ness monster, and alien abductions....but we did include lipitor?
>
> On July 29, 2015 7:30:08 PM PDT, Mike Murray via OBRA
> wrote:
>>
>> Not "anything" but "many things". One needs to be careful when making broad
>> generalizations. "Random uninformed lies" is a bit harsh. "Recommendations
>> based on inadequate data" would be a bit more accurate. In this particular
>> issue, since there is no drug therapy involved, there is not much
>> pharmaceutical funding to be expected. Similar care should be applied in
>> evaluating dietary recommendations and estimates of doctor caused deaths.
>>
>> I definitely agree that the risk that endurance exercise will kill you, all
>> causes, is worth it.
>>
>> Mike Murray
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org ] On Behalf Of dacrizzow via
>> OBRA
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2015 19:15
>> To: obra@list.obra.org
>> Subject: [OBRA Chat] endurance athletes and heart health
>>
>> first...anything the medical community says is either slanted toward studies
>> paid for by pharmacutical companies or just random uninformed lies.
>> second...diet. most cyclists I've known tend to eat pretty healthy but still
>> include flour, sugar, too much meat and not nearly enough REAL veggies. real
>> veggies being the ones that are hard to chew, swallow and (at first) taste
>> like crap. so maybe they're "studies" didn't include athletes that actually
>> follow a more disciplined diet. beside cops and politicians, doctors are
>> probably responsible for more deaths in this country than any other group.
>> prescription drugs anyone?....ride your bike, enjoy life, then die. i would
>> much rather drop dead on a 50 mile run in the mountains than sitting on a
>> couch watching breaking bad reruns. oh yeah, lipitor is for losers
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
> --
> Sent by an Android >^•^<
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
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Greg Eyerly

The good news is I hear there are cyclocross clinics offered at PIR in August!

Sent from my iPad

On Jul 29, 2015, at 7:48 PM, "Robert via OBRA" > wrote:

Wow....good thing we didn't bring up chem trails, thimerosol , the loch ness monster, and alien abductions....but we did include lipitor?

On July 29, 2015 7:30:08 PM PDT, Mike Murray via OBRA > wrote:

Not "anything" but "many things". One needs to be careful when making broad
generalizations. "Random uninformed lies" is a bit harsh. "Recommendations
based on inadequate data" would be a bit more accurate. In this particular
issue, since there is no drug therapy involved, there is not much
pharmaceutical funding to be expected. Similar care should be applied in
evaluating dietary recommendations and estimates of doctor caused deaths.

I definitely agree that the risk that endurance exercise will kill you, all
causes, is worth it.

Mike Murray
-----Original Message-----
From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of dacrizzow via
OBRA
Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2015 19:15
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] endurance athletes and heart health

first...anything the medical community says is either slanted toward studies
paid for by pharmacutical companies or just random uninformed lies.
second...diet. most cyclists I've known tend to eat pretty healthy but still
include flour, sugar, too much meat and not nearly enough REAL veggies. real
veggies being the ones that are hard to chew, swallow and (at first) taste
like crap. so maybe they're "studies" didn't include athletes that actually
follow a more disciplined diet. beside cops and politicians, doctors are
probably responsible for more deaths in this country than any other group.
prescription drugs anyone?....ride your bike, enjoy life, then die. i would
much rather drop dead on a 50 mile run in the mountains than sitting on a
couch watching breaking bad reruns. oh yeah, lipitor is for losers
________________________________

OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
________________________________

OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

--
Sent by an Android >^*^<
_______________________________________________
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obra@list.obra.org
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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Robert

Wow....good thing we didn't bring up chem trails, thimerosol , the loch ness monster, and alien abductions....but we did include lipitor?

On July 29, 2015 7:30:08 PM PDT, Mike Murray via OBRA wrote:
>Not "anything" but "many things". One needs to be careful when making
>broad
>generalizations. "Random uninformed lies" is a bit harsh.
>"Recommendations
>based on inadequate data" would be a bit more accurate. In this
>particular
>issue, since there is no drug therapy involved, there is not much
>pharmaceutical funding to be expected. Similar care should be applied
>in
>evaluating dietary recommendations and estimates of doctor caused
>deaths.
>
>I definitely agree that the risk that endurance exercise will kill you,
>all
>causes, is worth it.
>
>Mike Murray
>-----Original Message-----
>From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of dacrizzow
>via
>OBRA
>Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2015 19:15
>To: obra@list.obra.org
>Subject: [OBRA Chat] endurance athletes and heart health
>
>first...anything the medical community says is either slanted toward
>studies
>paid for by pharmacutical companies or just random uninformed lies.
>second...diet. most cyclists I've known tend to eat pretty healthy but
>still
>include flour, sugar, too much meat and not nearly enough REAL veggies.
>real
>veggies being the ones that are hard to chew, swallow and (at first)
>taste
>like crap. so maybe they're "studies" didn't include athletes that
>actually
>follow a more disciplined diet. beside cops and politicians, doctors
>are
>probably responsible for more deaths in this country than any other
>group.
>prescription drugs anyone?....ride your bike, enjoy life, then die. i
>would
>much rather drop dead on a 50 mile run in the mountains than sitting on
>a
>couch watching breaking bad reruns. oh yeah, lipitor is for losers
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

--
Sent by an Android >^•^<

Mike Murray

Turns out that the truth is a very difficult item to pin down. Proximity
is not causality. Many studies have significant selection bias. What you
mention may be one of those issues. In this case the control group is the
incidence of arrhythmia in the general population, something where there
are pretty good data. It is certainly possible that athletes complain more
so they get found more. There are, however, several studies that have
demonstrated similar findings which argues against a systemic flaw.
Designing a study to address this possible selection bias would be
difficult as it would require cardiac monitoring a large number of
asymptomatic people, athletes and non-athletes. Less than 5% would be
expected to have findings. This probably fits into the category of things
we will never know with a high degree of certainty. Or, as Matt might say,
it could be a random uninformed lie.

Mike Murray

*From:* Michael Medina [mailto:802redwood@gmail.com]
*Sent:* Wednesday, July 29, 2015 18:32
*To:* Mike Murray; OBRA remailer
*Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] endurance athletes and heart health

Mike Murray,

Indeed there does seem to be evidence that endurance athletes have more
electrical disturbance, however I'm wondering if endurance athletes are
either more aware of the rhythms and are also more aware of the symptoms.
Are there *really *control groups and enough data for this, or are the
squeaky wheels getting the grease regardless of the best efforts of
science? And endurance athletes can be very squeaky wheels when the
ticker has an issue.

Michael Medina

On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 6:07 PM Mike Murray via OBRA
wrote:

I would hate to disappoint.

The Velo article was of particular interest given that I was wearing an
arrhythmia monitor at the time it arrived. The article was interesting but
long on anecdotes and short on data.

It is important to recognize that heart problems can be caused by decreased
blood flow, abnormal rhythms or decreased heart muscle function. Although
these problems can be interrelated they are not all the same. The Velo
article addresses irregular rhythms, not the more common blood flow issue
that causes most heart attacks.

There is considerable evidence to suggest a correlation between irregular
heart rhythms and endurance exercise. It is of note that there seems to be
a dose response relationship. Both more exercise and high intensity
exercise are both independently correlated with greater risk of rhythm
issues. Most of the irregular rhythms are generally not life threatening
(unlike the V-tach described in the Velo article). Some studies include
slow rates, which are arguably normal in endurance athletes, although
generally they are only looking at symptomatic people. Overall the risk is
not high but it is greater than for the non-exercising population. Age
also increases the risk of arrhythmia but the risk in endurance athletes is
in addition to the age related risk. Frankly this is not really something
that most people should worry about. You are more likely to have problems
due to falling off your bike. If you are having episodes of irregular
heartbeat, dizziness or passing out you should get an investigation but
most people can ignore this.

For those interested in my personal issue; I am having irregular rhythms.
Undoubtedly they are not making me any faster but there is not really
anything that needs to be done about them at this point and they should not
prohibit me from continuing to race or exercise.

Mike Murray

*From:* OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org ]
*On Behalf Of *Splinter Wrenn via OBRA
*Sent:* Wednesday, July 29, 2015 17:07

*To:* Thom Schoenborn
*Cc:* OBRA
*Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] endurance athletes and heart health

Waiting for Dr. Mike Murray to weigh in on this one. He has some very
recent first hand experiences with these issues.

Splinter

“The scientist is not a person who gives the right answers, he is one who
asks the right questions.” – Claude Levi-Strauss

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 29, 2015, at 10:27 AM, Thom Schoenborn via OBRA
wrote:

If you've had weird flutters in your chest, perhaps you've wondered why.
Kinda, sorta, potentially scary stuff for long-time endurance athletes.

http://velonews.competitor.com/cycling-extremes

I'm sure the doctors on the list will have more informed opinions, but
having a little education and awareness can't hurt. (You know, unless this
article scares you out of living a healthy lifestyle and you die with your
hands and face covered in Nutella.)

-Thom

_______________________________________________

OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Mike Murray

Not "anything" but "many things". One needs to be careful when making broad
generalizations. "Random uninformed lies" is a bit harsh. "Recommendations
based on inadequate data" would be a bit more accurate. In this particular
issue, since there is no drug therapy involved, there is not much
pharmaceutical funding to be expected. Similar care should be applied in
evaluating dietary recommendations and estimates of doctor caused deaths.

I definitely agree that the risk that endurance exercise will kill you, all
causes, is worth it.

Mike Murray
-----Original Message-----
From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of dacrizzow via
OBRA
Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2015 19:15
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] endurance athletes and heart health

first...anything the medical community says is either slanted toward studies
paid for by pharmacutical companies or just random uninformed lies.
second...diet. most cyclists I've known tend to eat pretty healthy but still
include flour, sugar, too much meat and not nearly enough REAL veggies. real
veggies being the ones that are hard to chew, swallow and (at first) taste
like crap. so maybe they're "studies" didn't include athletes that actually
follow a more disciplined diet. beside cops and politicians, doctors are
probably responsible for more deaths in this country than any other group.
prescription drugs anyone?....ride your bike, enjoy life, then die. i would
much rather drop dead on a 50 mile run in the mountains than sitting on a
couch watching breaking bad reruns. oh yeah, lipitor is for losers
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

dacrizzow

first...anything the medical community says is either slanted toward studies paid for by pharmacutical companies or just random uninformed lies. second...diet. most cyclists I've known tend to eat pretty healthy but still include flour, sugar, too much meat and not nearly enough REAL veggies. real veggies being the ones that are hard to chew, swallow and (at first) taste like crap. so maybe they're "studies" didn't include athletes that actually follow a more disciplined diet. beside cops and politicians, doctors are probably responsible for more deaths in this country than any other group. prescription drugs anyone?....ride your bike, enjoy life, then die. i would much rather drop dead on a 50 mile run in the mountains than sitting on a couch watching breaking bad reruns. oh yeah, lipitor is for losers

Michael Medina

Mike Murray,

Indeed there does seem to be evidence that endurance athletes have more
electrical disturbance, however I'm wondering if endurance athletes are
either more aware of the rhythms and are also more aware of the symptoms.
Are there *really *control groups and enough data for this, or are the
squeaky wheels getting the grease regardless of the best efforts of
science? And endurance athletes can be very squeaky wheels when the
ticker has an issue.

Michael Medina

On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 6:07 PM Mike Murray via OBRA
wrote:

> I would hate to disappoint.
>
>
>
> The Velo article was of particular interest given that I was wearing an
> arrhythmia monitor at the time it arrived. The article was interesting but
> long on anecdotes and short on data.
>
>
>
> It is important to recognize that heart problems can be caused by
> decreased blood flow, abnormal rhythms or decreased heart muscle function.
> Although these problems can be interrelated they are not all the same. The
> Velo article addresses irregular rhythms, not the more common blood flow
> issue that causes most heart attacks.
>
>
>
> There is considerable evidence to suggest a correlation between irregular
> heart rhythms and endurance exercise. It is of note that there seems to be
> a dose response relationship. Both more exercise and high intensity
> exercise are both independently correlated with greater risk of rhythm
> issues. Most of the irregular rhythms are generally not life threatening
> (unlike the V-tach described in the Velo article). Some studies include
> slow rates, which are arguably normal in endurance athletes, although
> generally they are only looking at symptomatic people. Overall the risk is
> not high but it is greater than for the non-exercising population. Age
> also increases the risk of arrhythmia but the risk in endurance athletes is
> in addition to the age related risk. Frankly this is not really something
> that most people should worry about. You are more likely to have problems
> due to falling off your bike. If you are having episodes of irregular
> heartbeat, dizziness or passing out you should get an investigation but
> most people can ignore this.
>
>
>
> For those interested in my personal issue; I am having irregular rhythms.
> Undoubtedly they are not making me any faster but there is not really
> anything that needs to be done about them at this point and they should not
> prohibit me from continuing to race or exercise.
>
>
>
> Mike Murray
>
>
>
> *From:* OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> ] *On Behalf Of *Splinter Wrenn via OBRA
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 29, 2015 17:07
>
>
> *To:* Thom Schoenborn
> *Cc:* OBRA
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] endurance athletes and heart health
>
>
>
> Waiting for Dr. Mike Murray to weigh in on this one. He has some very
> recent first hand experiences with these issues.
>
> Splinter
>
>
>
> “The scientist is not a person who gives the right answers, he is one who
> asks the right questions.” – Claude Levi-Strauss
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On Jul 29, 2015, at 10:27 AM, Thom Schoenborn via OBRA
> wrote:
>
> If you've had weird flutters in your chest, perhaps you've wondered why.
> Kinda, sorta, potentially scary stuff for long-time endurance athletes.
>
>
>
> http://velonews.competitor.com/cycling-extremes
>
>
>
> I'm sure the doctors on the list will have more informed opinions, but
> having a little education and awareness can't hurt. (You know, unless this
> article scares you out of living a healthy lifestyle and you die with your
> hands and face covered in Nutella.)
>
>
>
> -Thom
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Mike Murray

I would hate to disappoint.

The Velo article was of particular interest given that I was wearing an
arrhythmia monitor at the time it arrived. The article was interesting but
long on anecdotes and short on data.

It is important to recognize that heart problems can be caused by decreased
blood flow, abnormal rhythms or decreased heart muscle function. Although
these problems can be interrelated they are not all the same. The Velo
article addresses irregular rhythms, not the more common blood flow issue
that causes most heart attacks.

There is considerable evidence to suggest a correlation between irregular
heart rhythms and endurance exercise. It is of note that there seems to be
a dose response relationship. Both more exercise and high intensity
exercise are both independently correlated with greater risk of rhythm
issues. Most of the irregular rhythms are generally not life threatening
(unlike the V-tach described in the Velo article). Some studies include
slow rates, which are arguably normal in endurance athletes, although
generally they are only looking at symptomatic people. Overall the risk is
not high but it is greater than for the non-exercising population. Age
also increases the risk of arrhythmia but the risk in endurance athletes is
in addition to the age related risk. Frankly this is not really something
that most people should worry about. You are more likely to have problems
due to falling off your bike. If you are having episodes of irregular
heartbeat, dizziness or passing out you should get an investigation but
most people can ignore this.

For those interested in my personal issue; I am having irregular rhythms.
Undoubtedly they are not making me any faster but there is not really
anything that needs to be done about them at this point and they should not
prohibit me from continuing to race or exercise.

Mike Murray

*From:* OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org ]
*On Behalf Of *Splinter Wrenn via OBRA
*Sent:* Wednesday, July 29, 2015 17:07
*To:* Thom Schoenborn
*Cc:* OBRA
*Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] endurance athletes and heart health

Waiting for Dr. Mike Murray to weigh in on this one. He has some very
recent first hand experiences with these issues.

Splinter

“The scientist is not a person who gives the right answers, he is one who
asks the right questions.” – Claude Levi-Strauss

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 29, 2015, at 10:27 AM, Thom Schoenborn via OBRA
wrote:

If you've had weird flutters in your chest, perhaps you've wondered why.
Kinda, sorta, potentially scary stuff for long-time endurance athletes.

http://velonews.competitor.com/cycling-extremes

I'm sure the doctors on the list will have more informed opinions, but
having a little education and awareness can't hurt. (You know, unless this
article scares you out of living a healthy lifestyle and you die with your
hands and face covered in Nutella.)

-Thom

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Mike Murray

Your doctor is wrong. Although there is a strong suggestion that routine
exercise decreases risk of coronary artery disease this is not a reason to
avoid screening for and treating high cholesterol. The protection of
exercise is certainly not absolute. It is good that you have not had
problems yet and it is good that you exercise but your family history puts
you at high risk for coronary artery disease. You should try to mitigate
that using all the things available.

FWIW, the only person in my family that had coronary artery disease was my
father who smoked heavily, was sedentary, etc. I have no other risk
factors with the possible exception of working variable shifts as an EM
doc. I have exercised all my life since starting competitive swimming at
age 10. I have raced bikes since 1972, since 1980 more than 50/year.
Regardless of all that I had a heart attack at age 55 and subsequently
underwent a 3 vessel bypass. My grandmother had a saying to cover these
things; "No matter where you sit, the man in the balcony will certainly
spit".

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Ken Luke via
OBRA
Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2015 12:39
To: Thom Schoenborn
Cc: OBRA
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] endurance athletes and heart health

The way I look at it, at my current age my father had already had a heart
attack and angioplasty and was starting a regimen of statins that he
continues to this day. My grandfather had a little over a decade left to
live before dying of heart disease, the same with an uncle.

I had a checkup earlier this month and the doc said he wasn't even going
to bother running the cholesterol tests on me (he's a biker too).

No one gets out of this mortal coil alive, but at least I'm ahead of the
curve...

> On Jul 29, 2015, at 10:27, Thom Schoenborn via OBRA
wrote:
>
> If you've had weird flutters in your chest, perhaps you've wondered why.
Kinda, sorta, potentially scary stuff for long-time endurance athletes.
>
> http://velonews.competitor.com/cycling-extremes
>
> I'm sure the doctors on the list will have more informed opinions, but
having a little education and awareness can't hurt. (You know, unless this
article scares you out of living a healthy lifestyle and you die with your
hands and face covered in Nutella.)
>
> -Thom

Best Regards

------------------------------------------------------------
Ken Luke kenl97216@gmail.com (971)207-6548

"Complexity is easy; Simplicity is hard."
-- Edmund Keane
------------------------------------------------------------

Splinter Wrenn

Waiting for Dr. Mike Murray to weigh in on this one. He has some very recent first hand experiences with these issues.

Splinter

“The scientist is not a person who gives the right answers, he is one who asks the right questions.” – Claude Levi-Strauss

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 29, 2015, at 10:27 AM, Thom Schoenborn via OBRA wrote:
>
> If you've had weird flutters in your chest, perhaps you've wondered why. Kinda, sorta, potentially scary stuff for long-time endurance athletes.
>
> http://velonews.competitor.com/cycling-extremes
>
> I'm sure the doctors on the list will have more informed opinions, but having a little education and awareness can't hurt. (You know, unless this article scares you out of living a healthy lifestyle and you die with your hands and face covered in Nutella.)
>
> -Thom
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Thom Schoenborn

I totally agree with everyone that riding a bike is good. And yeah, we're
all gonna die of *something.* In my case, probably embarrassment as I try
to squeeze into my damn CX skinsuit this fall. Ugh. WHY DO BEER AND CHEESE
HAVE TO TASTE SO GOOD?!?!

I bring up the article for the sake of awareness: if you're feeling kinda
weird in the heart-bone while riding — "his heart began to flop like a fish
in his chest" — and you've been a long-time endurance racer, don't be too
proud to bring up the issue with your doctor. Educate yourself. Because as
all the people in the article mention, they were given A+ health grades
shortly before they nearly died.

Happily, this awareness is not mutually exclusive with John's excellent
advice: "Just ride your bike and enjoy your life."

Cheers!

TS

On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 1:12 PM, johnfforbes@comcast.net <
johnfforbes@comcast.net> wrote:

> I turn 70 in a couple of days resting hr is 43, max 171. Something will
> kill me, and in the end it's heart failure but I don't expect heart
> problems will be the main issue.
> Just ride your bike and enjoy your life.
>
> Sent by MailWise – See your
> emails as clean, short chats.
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> From: "stevea.long via OBRA"
> Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2015 12:52 PM
> To: Thom Schoenborn ,OBRA
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] endurance athletes and heart health
>
> Okay, we have to resort to plausibility to do this association? Really?
> In this next statement:
> “Younger patients with a lower cumulative dose of exercise have lower AF
> risk. Older patients with higher dosages of exercise have higher AF risk,”
> Mandrola said
>
> Could this also not be stated as Old patients have a higher risk of AF
> than younger patients?
> Would that not also be true?
> And i see they have an argument for higher and slower heart rates overall.
> But, doing the math indicates that athletes also have a lower number of
> heart beats per year/month/day. It's also plausible that an overall number
> of heart beats would translate into a longer overall life of the heart.
>
> Steve
>
>
> Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S®4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Thom Schoenborn via OBRA
> Date:07/29/2015 10:27 AM (GMT-08:00)
> To: OBRA
> Cc:
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] endurance athletes and heart health
>
> If you've had weird flutters in your chest, perhaps you've wondered why.
> Kinda, sorta, potentially scary stuff for long-time endurance athletes.
>
> http://velonews.competitor.com/cycling-extremes
>
> I'm sure the doctors on the list will have more informed opinions, but
> having a little education and awareness can't hurt. (You know, unless this
> article scares you out of living a healthy lifestyle and you die with your
> hands and face covered in Nutella.)
>
> -Thom
>

Tom Orth

Yeah I've been in a bit of a haze all day after reading this. I've always
assumed that my garmin is malfunctioning when it shows my heart rate jump
from 150 to 220 plus during a ride. I don't think I feel any different when
this happens...but now I'm wondering if I'm in afib. Thanks for puncturing
my bubble of denial that I'm perpetually 25 years old.

On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 12:30 PM, EAL via OBRA wrote:

> Thanks for posting. I'm thoroughly depressed now. I think I'll go out for
> a ride.
>
> Ed M 60+
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, July 29, 2015 10:29 AM, Thom Schoenborn via OBRA <
> obra@list.obra.org> wrote:
>
>
> If you've had weird flutters in your chest, perhaps you've wondered why.
> Kinda, sorta, potentially scary stuff for long-time endurance athletes.
>
> http://velonews.competitor.com/cycling-extremes
>
> I'm sure the doctors on the list will have more informed opinions, but
> having a little education and awareness can't hurt. (You know, unless this
> article scares you out of living a healthy lifestyle and you die with your
> hands and face covered in Nutella.)
>
> -Thom
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

johnfforbes@comcast.net

I turn 70 in a couple of days resting hr is 43, max 171. Something will kill me, and in the end it's heart failure but I don't expect heart problems will be the main issue.
Just ride your bike and enjoy your life.

Sent by MailWise – See your emails as clean, short chats.

-------- Original Message --------
From: "stevea.long via OBRA"
Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2015 12:52 PM
To: Thom Schoenborn ,OBRA
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] endurance athletes and heart health

>Okay, we have to resort to plausibility to do this association?  Really? 
>In this next statement:
>“Younger patients with a lower cumulative dose of exercise have lower AF risk. Older patients with higher dosages of exercise have higher AF risk,” Mandrola said
>
>Could this also not be stated as Old patients have a higher risk of AF than younger patients?
>Would that not also be true? 
>And i see they have an argument for higher and slower heart rates overall. But, doing the math indicates that athletes also have a lower number of heart beats per year/month/day. It's also plausible that an overall number of heart beats would translate into a longer overall life of the heart.
>
>Steve
>
>
>Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S®4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
>
>

If you've had weird flutters in your chest, perhaps you've wondered why. Kinda, sorta, potentially scary stuff for long-time endurance athletes.
>
>http://velonews.competitor.com/cycling-extremes
>
>I'm sure the doctors on the list will have more informed opinions, but having a little education and awareness can't hurt. (You know, unless this article scares you out of living a healthy lifestyle and you die with your hands and face covered in Nutella.)
>
>-Thom
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>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
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stevea.long

Okay, we have to resort to plausibility to do this association?  Really? 
In this next statement:
“Younger patients with a lower cumulative dose of exercise have lower AF risk. Older patients with higher dosages of exercise have higher AF risk,” Mandrola said

Could this also not be stated as Old patients have a higher risk of AF than younger patients?
Would that not also be true? 
And i see they have an argument for higher and slower heart rates overall. But, doing the math indicates that athletes also have a lower number of heart beats per year/month/day. It's also plausible that an overall number of heart beats would translate into a longer overall life of the heart.

Steve

Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S®4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone

If you've had weird flutters in your chest, perhaps you've wondered why. Kinda, sorta, potentially scary stuff for long-time endurance athletes.

http://velonews.competitor.com/cycling-extremes

I'm sure the doctors on the list will have more informed opinions, but having a little education and awareness can't hurt. (You know, unless this article scares you out of living a healthy lifestyle and you die with your hands and face covered in Nutella.)

-Thom

Ken Luke

The way I look at it, at my current age my father had already had a heart attack and angioplasty and was starting a regimen of statins that he continues to this day. My grandfather had a little over a decade left to live before dying of heart disease, the same with an uncle.

I had a checkup earlier this month and the doc said he wasn't even going to bother running the cholesterol tests on me (he's a biker too).

No one gets out of this mortal coil alive, but at least I'm ahead of the curve...

> On Jul 29, 2015, at 10:27, Thom Schoenborn via OBRA wrote:
>
> If you've had weird flutters in your chest, perhaps you've wondered why. Kinda, sorta, potentially scary stuff for long-time endurance athletes.
>
> http://velonews.competitor.com/cycling-extremes
>
> I'm sure the doctors on the list will have more informed opinions, but having a little education and awareness can't hurt. (You know, unless this article scares you out of living a healthy lifestyle and you die with your hands and face covered in Nutella.)
>
> -Thom

Best Regards

------------------------------------------------------------
Ken Luke kenl97216@gmail.com (971)207-6548

"Complexity is easy; Simplicity is hard."
-- Edmund Keane
------------------------------------------------------------

EAL

Thanks for posting.  I'm thoroughly depressed now. I think I'll go out for a ride.
Ed M 60+ 

On Wednesday, July 29, 2015 10:29 AM, Thom Schoenborn via OBRA wrote:

If you've had weird flutters in your chest, perhaps you've wondered why. Kinda, sorta, potentially scary stuff for long-time endurance athletes.
http://velonews.competitor.com/cycling-extremes

I'm sure the doctors on the list will have more informed opinions, but having a little education and awareness can't hurt. (You know, unless this article scares you out of living a healthy lifestyle and you die with your hands and face covered in Nutella.)

-Thom
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Thom Schoenborn

If you've had weird flutters in your chest, perhaps you've wondered why.
Kinda, sorta, potentially scary stuff for long-time endurance athletes.

http://velonews.competitor.com/cycling-extremes

I'm sure the doctors on the list will have more informed opinions, but
having a little education and awareness can't hurt. (You know, unless this
article scares you out of living a healthy lifestyle and you die with your
hands and face covered in Nutella.)

-Thom