Jeff Tedder

Well everyone has an opinion, that’s what makes the world go round….

From: D Grabowski [mailto:grabowdf@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2016 11:22 AM
To: Jeff Tedder; 'charlie'; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Apparently a ranter is going to rant no matter how reasonable you try to be.

It is a true luxury that we in OBRAland have such abundant choices in racing opportunities to suit almost everyone's tastes on any given weekend...but hey, let's get all pissy and bang the drum for OBRA to act like a governing entity and sort out all your conflicts between promoters rather than assuming personal responsibility to act like a grown-up and step up the quality of the event/product you are trying to promote or heaven's forbid, pick up the phone and call your collegue. Seriously, what is next? An expectation from OBRA that you will receive enough racers or better yet, a subsidy from the governing agency to guarantee that you will break even? HTFU and ask yourself if you are doing enough to make your event all that it could be rather than whine about the possibility that you aren't going to make enough money to cover your costs.

On Thursday, May 12, 2016 8:28 AM, Jeff Tedder via OBRA wrote:

Well I would say to the phone calls... That should come from the person that wants to put a race on the same day as someone else, it should be a gentlemens agreement I guess since teams race days will never be protected....If that’s what you want to do, pick up the phone or email the person and say hey this day looks to be the only day I can do this and wonder what your thoughts are....Or the person that is running the OBRA schedule see's the duplicate races that could interfere and says well we need to touch bases with the team or promoter that has had a race that day for years and ask them about....Instead of just allowing anyone or anybody to say oh I want to throw a race on this day no matter what or who it effects....That seems like the right thing to do to me as I said in past emails on the string...I would not do that in the first place thinking it would interfere with someone else's race...I would either find another day that was not a conflict or I would not put the race on....But if it needed to be done for whatever reason I would reach out to that person or OBRA and ask first..Maybe if everyone can time a few minutes to treat our schedule in this manner instead of turning it into a free for all it might take away a lot of hard feeling and email strings like this.... that’s all I got...Tedder out

-----Original Message-----
From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of charlie via OBRA
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 10:26 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

First off, this entire thread, especially the tone, could have been avoided by picking up a phone call or sending an email between the two promoters. Conflicts are unavoidable.

The continuing debate about OBRA and its role in organizing the schedule is tiresome. OBRA's role is to facilitate racing opportunities and support promoters, and its a valuable service for a fair price.

As a promoter in OBRA for nearly 10 years I have experienced my share of conflict with other events, nearly one every year. Sometimes, the conflict is a regional or national level issue. Sometimes venues are inflexible, jurisdictions are inflexible, personal lives of promoters are inflexible. I don't think any promoter looks at a date with another race already on schedule and says, "that's the date!" Perhaps I am naive.

Events have their traditional date and should be allowed to be given first right of refusal for a date, that's how cities do it. But if an event, such as an OBRA Championship cannot be held by a promoter on any other date, then conflict will happen. That doesn't mean the date already on the calendar cannot take place.

>From this thread, it certainly seems like there might be a few volunteers who want to put in the time and effort to manage the calendar. Good luck to you. Good luck determining what constitutes a conflict..Distance between races? Discipline? OBRA resource availability?

In the meantime, I will continue to contact a promoters with whom I might have a date conflict and explore resolutions and plan my time and resources accordingly.

Multiple races on the same date are undesirable, but sometimes unavoidable. Perhaps the solution isn't limiting race opportunities with a tightly controlled schedule. Perhaps the solution is getting more people racing bikes at OBRA events.

That's my $0.02.

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D Grabowski

Apparently a ranter is going to rant no matter how reasonable you try to be.  It is a true luxury that we in OBRAland have such abundant choices in racing opportunities to suit almost everyone's tastes on any given weekend...but hey, let's get all pissy and bang the drum for OBRA to act like a governing entity and sort out all your conflicts between promoters rather than assuming personal responsibility to act like a grown-up and step up the quality of the event/product you are trying to promote or heaven's forbid, pick up the phone and call your collegue.  Seriously, what is next?  An expectation from OBRA that you will receive enough racers or better yet, a subsidy from the governing agency to guarantee that you will break even?  HTFU and ask yourself if you are doing enough to make your event all that it could be rather than whine about the possibility that you aren't going to make enough money to cover your costs. 

On Thursday, May 12, 2016 8:28 AM, Jeff Tedder via OBRA wrote:

Well I would say to the phone calls... That should come from the person that wants to put a race on the same day as someone else, it should be a gentlemens agreement I guess since teams race days will never be protected....If that’s what you want to do, pick up the phone or email the person and say hey this day looks to be the only day I can do this and wonder what your thoughts are....Or the person that is running the OBRA schedule see's the duplicate races that could interfere and says well we need to touch bases with the team or promoter that has had a race that day for years and ask them about....Instead of just allowing anyone or anybody to say oh I want to throw a race on this day no matter what or who it effects....That seems like the right thing to do to me as I said in past emails on the string...I would not do that in the first place thinking it would interfere with someone else's race...I would either find another day that was not a conflict or I would not put the race on....But if it needed to be done for whatever reason I would reach out to that person or OBRA and ask first..Maybe if everyone can time a few minutes to treat our schedule in this manner instead of turning it into a free for all it might take away a lot of hard feeling and email strings like this.... that’s all I got...Tedder out

-----Original Message-----
From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of charlie via OBRA
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 10:26 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

First off, this entire thread, especially the tone, could have been avoided by picking up a phone call or sending an email between the two promoters.  Conflicts are unavoidable. 

The continuing debate about OBRA and its role in organizing the schedule is tiresome. OBRA's role is to facilitate racing opportunities and support promoters, and its a valuable service for a fair price. 

As a promoter in OBRA for nearly 10 years I have experienced my share of conflict with other events, nearly one every year.  Sometimes, the conflict is a regional or national level issue.  Sometimes venues are inflexible, jurisdictions are inflexible, personal lives of promoters are inflexible. I don't think any promoter looks at a date with another race already on schedule and says, "that's the date!" Perhaps I am naive. 

Events have their traditional date and should be allowed to be given first right of refusal for a date, that's how cities do it.  But if an event, such as an OBRA Championship cannot be held by a promoter on any other date, then conflict will happen.  That doesn't mean the date already on the calendar cannot take place. 

>From this thread, it certainly seems like there might be a few volunteers who want to put in the time and effort to manage the calendar.  Good luck to you.  Good luck determining what constitutes a conflict..Distance between races? Discipline? OBRA resource availability?

In the meantime, I will continue to contact a promoters with whom I might have a date conflict and explore resolutions and plan my time and resources accordingly. 

Multiple races on the same date are undesirable, but sometimes unavoidable.  Perhaps the solution isn't limiting race opportunities with a tightly controlled schedule.  Perhaps the solution is getting more people racing bikes at OBRA events.

That's my $0.02.

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Jeff Tedder

Well I would say to the phone calls... That should come from the person that wants to put a race on the same day as someone else, it should be a gentlemens agreement I guess since teams race days will never be protected....If that���s what you want to do, pick up the phone or email the person and say hey this day looks to be the only day I can do this and wonder what your thoughts are....Or the person that is running the OBRA schedule see's the duplicate races that could interfere and says well we need to touch bases with the team or promoter that has had a race that day for years and ask them about....Instead of just allowing anyone or anybody to say oh I want to throw a race on this day no matter what or who it effects....That seems like the right thing to do to me as I said in past emails on the string...I would not do that in the first place thinking it would interfere with someone else's race...I would either find another day that was not a conflict or I would not put the race on....But if it needed to be done for whatever reason I would reach out to that person or OBRA and ask first..Maybe if everyone can time a few minutes to treat our schedule in this manner instead of turning it into a free for all it might take away a lot of hard feeling and email strings like this.... that���s all I got...Tedder out

-----Original Message-----
From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of charlie via OBRA
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 10:26 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

First off, this entire thread, especially the tone, could have been avoided by picking up a phone call or sending an email between the two promoters. Conflicts are unavoidable.

The continuing debate about OBRA and its role in organizing the schedule is tiresome. OBRA's role is to facilitate racing opportunities and support promoters, and its a valuable service for a fair price.

As a promoter in OBRA for nearly 10 years I have experienced my share of conflict with other events, nearly one every year. Sometimes, the conflict is a regional or national level issue. Sometimes venues are inflexible, jurisdictions are inflexible, personal lives of promoters are inflexible. I don't think any promoter looks at a date with another race already on schedule and says, "that's the date!" Perhaps I am naive.

Events have their traditional date and should be allowed to be given first right of refusal for a date, that's how cities do it. But if an event, such as an OBRA Championship cannot be held by a promoter on any other date, then conflict will happen. That doesn't mean the date already on the calendar cannot take place.

>From this thread, it certainly seems like there might be a few volunteers who want to put in the time and effort to manage the calendar. Good luck to you. Good luck determining what constitutes a conflict..Distance between races? Discipline? OBRA resource availability?

In the meantime, I will continue to contact a promoters with whom I might have a date conflict and explore resolutions and plan my time and resources accordingly.

Multiple races on the same date are undesirable, but sometimes unavoidable. Perhaps the solution isn't limiting race opportunities with a tightly controlled schedule. Perhaps the solution is getting more people racing bikes at OBRA events.

That's my $0.02.

_______________________________________________
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obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

charlie

First off, this entire thread, especially the tone, could have been avoided by picking up a phone call or sending an email between the two promoters. Conflicts are unavoidable.

The continuing debate about OBRA and its role in organizing the schedule is tiresome. OBRA's role is to facilitate racing opportunities and support promoters, and its a valuable service for a fair price.

As a promoter in OBRA for nearly 10 years I have experienced my share of conflict with other events, nearly one every year. Sometimes, the conflict is a regional or national level issue. Sometimes venues are inflexible, jurisdictions are inflexible, personal lives of promoters are inflexible. I don't think any promoter looks at a date with another race already on schedule and says, "that's the date!" Perhaps I am naive.

Events have their traditional date and should be allowed to be given first right of refusal for a date, that's how cities do it. But if an event, such as an OBRA Championship cannot be held by a promoter on any other date, then conflict will happen. That doesn't mean the date already on the calendar cannot take place.

>From this thread, it certainly seems like there might be a few volunteers who want to put in the time and effort to manage the calendar. Good luck to you. Good luck determining what constitutes a conflict..Distance between races? Discipline? OBRA resource availability?

In the meantime, I will continue to contact a promoters with whom I might have a date conflict and explore resolutions and plan my time and resources accordingly.

Multiple races on the same date are undesirable, but sometimes unavoidable. Perhaps the solution isn't limiting race opportunities with a tightly controlled schedule. Perhaps the solution is getting more people racing bikes at OBRA events.

That's my $0.02.

Stewart Campbell

And the sad part is that only about 15 out of 100+ teams actually show up to vote.

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 10:34 AM, Steven Beardsley via OBRA wrote: I have a suggestion for everyone.
The OBRA Admin Rules (http://www.obra.org/pdfs/2016_admin_rules.pdf) set out the rules for events and their approval, requirements, conflict resolution, etc. These rules can be modified by the Board of Directors or by the vote of the OBRA club representatives. I highly suggest that the clubs propose the rule changes that they would like to see made and then send representatives to the annual meeting to vote on those changes. This is the system that is in place for dealing with these issues. Sending silly emails to the OBRA chat will not change the rules.

On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 9:45 AM, Mat Braun via OBRA wrote:

According to OBRA.org there are several people who are OBRA, even a few paid staff positions?
On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 9:13 AM, Mike Murray wrote:

Who is this OBRA that you want to take over the races and put them on? OBRA is just the membership of OBRA. That is who is putting on these races currently. There is no group of helpful elves waiting in the wings to put on races. OBRA championship races are often put on the schedule later as it is a challenge to find people willing to put them on.

Mike

From: Mat Braun [mailto:matbraun@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 08:38
To: Mike Murray
Cc: Jeff Tedder; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Mike,

I have to be honest it doesn't seem like an impossible task to organize the calendar such that events work better together.  It certainly doesn't seem fair to put it on Jeff to manage this task.  If state championships are so important why are they typically left to the last minute, some years even in danger of not happening.  Has OBRA ever taken over these events and promoted them? 

Good luck to both Jeff and Kenny, it does seem that OBRA should step in and if nothing else help facilitate their dialogue.

-Mat

On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 8:00 AM, Mike Murray via OBRA wrote:

So Jeff, given that there are nearly twice as many weekend races on the schedule as there are days May through August, which half of the races would you have OBRA say no to? How would that determination be made? Please be specific. We know you want to cancel the race held the same day as your race. Please tell us what other races you would have OBRA cancel to reach your desired only one race per day schedule. 

I also have to point out that there is a logical flaw in complaining about poor attendance at OBRA championship races while simultaneously complaining about the effect on attendance at your race. 

Mike Murray

On May 11, 2016, at 07:17, Jeff Tedder wrote:

Well to start, I would just say NO to adding races that pile on top of other races….you either choose a date that works out in your area to not conflict with other races or you just don’t put it on….

Again, this just creates issues every year, there is races that have been going for years and years on the same dates, weekends etc….Why would a promoter even want to put on a race on the same day as these races anyway?? I would not do it…If I was starting a new race or doing another race I just would not hone in on another day that has a race in my area to conflict with it…But that me I guess….Again this goes back to OBRA just saying no when this comes up….the schedule should come out with all the races that have been using the same days year after year…then people wanting to change their day or add a new race should have to do that with understanding what races are going on and depending on where you are in the state and if it could overlap other races and the people that attend these races....I mean it’s almost to the point where we should just put out days for Bid and the highest bidder gets those days… Again as I said yesterday, More is not always Better, Quality races that people look forward to each year is more important to me and getting the majority of racers there to race, not having them have to choose every weekend…..On the state race issue, looking at the attendance at many state races in the past several years…I would say, why bother in some cases….the effort that goes into putting on a race, and seeing the amount of people showing up at some state races, it just seems to me, 1… hard to call it  state championship in the first place, a lot of times it’s the city its in and becomes a city championship more than anything….State Championships should be a huge race for everyone every year….But again, there is so much racing that people don’t really seem to care by the attendance record, especially when its away from the Portland area…..So we can go back and forth on this forever, everyone has their thoughts, but again…why choose a day that already has an established race, your race will suffer, and it also takes away from a race that has been on-going for years, not just our race, this happens a lot in other races….why can’t OBRA just say no? moderate what goes on in the first place, then juggling days with other promoters is not an issue…..just my thoughts….

Jeff

ent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 10:43 PM
To: Jeff Tedder
Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Once again I think everybody is underestimating the difficulty of creating a schedule that does not have conflicts. Just look at the math:

- Between May and August there are 35 weekend days

- There are 10 days of OBRA championships that need to occur during that period. 

- There are 57 other weekend day races that people have placed on the schedule. Most of them are established races just as the HV crit is. 

- There are an unknown number of races that people might have put on but they did not wish to compete for a date with another race. 

Given the above it is inevitable that there will be days with more than one race. Actually if things are evenly distributed there will be 1.9 races each weekend day.  

If OBRA was in the business of limiting the number of races or eliminating any conflicts how would you propose to do that? Give championships precedence? Eliminate championships to free up space and decrease competition for other races? Prioritize races based on some criteria and axe the ones that have less of those criteria? How do you deal with the people involved in the production of the races that get eliminated?

Currently what OBRA does is facilitate communication between the people who are putting on races. The schedule is published months ahead of time. This allows those that can and wish to change dates to avoid conflict with another race to do so. Many races simply cannot change dates. It is not infrequent that people in such a bind just decide to not put on races. 

I also have to point out that the number of people willing to put on OBRA championship races is not unlimited or, actually, very large. If these races are going to happen OBRA needs to recognize the scheduling limitations for those people. 

Mike Murray

On May 10, 2016, at 21:12, Jeff Tedder via OBRA wrote:

I have been to promoters meetings and expressed how I feel and it did no good….it just seems to me, that the way things are allowed to run creates competition within the people that promote races…which in my mind is not good for racing…. If I was going to put on another race or start a new race…I would never pick a date that already had a race for 2 reasons….. 1, I would not want to push in someone elses date that has had an ongoing race for years, and 2, I think there is way to much on the schedule now and cramming races in, is not helping the attendance and any ones races….how is that good for racing in Oregon?  For whatever the reason, attendance at  state races and others is down if I recall….we have leveled off at the HV crit the last few years, but finally got it to a point where we make a few bucks for our efforts after 6 or 7 years….take 50 or 60 people out of the loop and we are back to luck if we break even…..Just seems to me for all our efforts, all promoters included you would want some kind of return to yourself or team for all the hard work…..

Not seeing how many races we can jam into the race schedule but making less races more quality events….The reason our race has become popular is we get tons of prizes and primes from sponsors and beyond to the point we are giving primes away almost every lap in some races….People love it, it’s a fun atmosphere and and we have a lot of followers now that love the venue and what we do… But I see many races on the schedule the past few years and then cancelled….reason???  not sure but I would guess a lot has to do with jamming other races onto those days and then its just not worth the effort…..So seems like that’s where OBRA has been leading itself the past several years…..and attendance is dropping, so I guess I put 2 and 2 together like many others that emailed me in the past 24 hours and its just not good for racing…..

Jeff        

From: kl_graham@comcast.net [mailto:kl_graham@comcast.net]
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:53 PM
To: sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
Cc: obra@list.obra.org; miker0629@yahoo.com
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Jeff

Since this platform you want to have and you're not wanting to work together on a solution, I wish you good luck on June 4th. This could have been figured out 24 hours ago, so don't worry about calling.

If you're at the upcoming promoters meeting, and you want to have this discussion face to face, I'm in. Straight conversation for a better solution.

But I've got my 5th race to promote, a cycling team to run, and to be an OBRA Official when needed. Other folks work hard as well, but I also feel the calendar needs work. It's up to us though to work together to find solutions in the interim.

Good luck in all your endeavor.

Kenny Graham

Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App

-----Original Message-----

From: sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
To: ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net,miker0629@yahoo.com,obra@list.obra.org
Sent: 2016-05-10 5:29:10 PM
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

That makes no sense to me and others…so you allow people to work their asses off building a race over years to the point now that it’s the favorite crit of the year for most people and then allow others to just take that date….I don’t think so….I have put way way way to much personal time and our teams help over the years to build this race into a great day to have that happen…and compae attendance at said races you want to allow to have priority….not so great….

From: Ron [mailto:ronfrerichs@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:24 PM
To: Jeff Tedder
Cc: Michael Richardson; kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

I completely agree with your first statement.

I suggest we allow Championship Race promoters to have first crack at the schedule, then let other promoters work around them.

Ron

On May 10, 2016, at 4:37 PM, Jeff Tedder via OBRA wrote:

Ya it is a worry, a state championship race should never be on the same day as any race….and we have been putting this race on for years, finally get to the point where we get good attendance and then this…..all this does is create a competition between people that pit races on……….Plus we have many many people that TT on our team and we need them to help put our race on…..so then what ? they have to skip a state championship because people cannot figure out that this is bad for racing,,,,stupid….

From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Michael Richardson via OBRA
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 1:26 PM
To: kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

No worries. 

Fast Twitch = crit

Slow Twitch = TT

Mike (all slow all the time myself)

On May 10, 2016, at 5:54 AM, via OBRA wrote:

We put this where there was space available and where time allowed. We have permits and registration is open.

No trying to under cut yall - but if we go any later in the calendar year, we run into issues with the local farmers.

I tried to email you last night about this, but your email rejected back to me.

If you would like to talk man to man about this, please call me directly at 5419059698.

Kenny

Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App

-----Original Message-----

From: obra@list.obra.org
To: bike-cyclisme@yahoogroups.com,jfbenenate@yahoo.com,lauradela67@icloud.com,obra@list.obra.org,sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
Cc:
Sent: 2016-05-09 11:57:11 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Ya and the Hammer Velo Crit is on June 4th, first  and biggest crit of the year…Why they piled a satate championship race on top of our long standing race is beyond me…

But ya’ll know its always a good one, with toms of prizes and primes..and always sunny : )

See ya, Jeff

Hammer Velo     

From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of John Benenate via OBRA
Sent: Monday, May 9, 2016 4:16 PM
To: OBRA List; yahoogroups; Laura Delahoussaye
Subject: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Just checkin'

The TTT Champ is May 21st?

and the TT Champ is June 4th?

Thanks,

jb

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Stewart Campbell

And the sad part is that only about 15 out of 100+ teams actually show up to vote.

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 10:34 AM, Steven Beardsley via OBRA wrote: I have a suggestion for everyone.
The OBRA Admin Rules (http://www.obra.org/pdfs/2016_admin_rules.pdf) set out the rules for events and their approval, requirements, conflict resolution, etc. These rules can be modified by the Board of Directors or by the vote of the OBRA club representatives. I highly suggest that the clubs propose the rule changes that they would like to see made and then send representatives to the annual meeting to vote on those changes. This is the system that is in place for dealing with these issues. Sending silly emails to the OBRA chat will not change the rules.

On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 9:45 AM, Mat Braun via OBRA wrote:

According to OBRA.org there are several people who are OBRA, even a few paid staff positions?
On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 9:13 AM, Mike Murray wrote:

Who is this OBRA that you want to take over the races and put them on? OBRA is just the membership of OBRA. That is who is putting on these races currently. There is no group of helpful elves waiting in the wings to put on races. OBRA championship races are often put on the schedule later as it is a challenge to find people willing to put them on.

Mike

From: Mat Braun [mailto:matbraun@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 08:38
To: Mike Murray
Cc: Jeff Tedder; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Mike,

I have to be honest it doesn't seem like an impossible task to organize the calendar such that events work better together.  It certainly doesn't seem fair to put it on Jeff to manage this task.  If state championships are so important why are they typically left to the last minute, some years even in danger of not happening.  Has OBRA ever taken over these events and promoted them? 

Good luck to both Jeff and Kenny, it does seem that OBRA should step in and if nothing else help facilitate their dialogue.

-Mat

On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 8:00 AM, Mike Murray via OBRA wrote:

So Jeff, given that there are nearly twice as many weekend races on the schedule as there are days May through August, which half of the races would you have OBRA say no to? How would that determination be made? Please be specific. We know you want to cancel the race held the same day as your race. Please tell us what other races you would have OBRA cancel to reach your desired only one race per day schedule. 

I also have to point out that there is a logical flaw in complaining about poor attendance at OBRA championship races while simultaneously complaining about the effect on attendance at your race. 

Mike Murray

On May 11, 2016, at 07:17, Jeff Tedder wrote:

Well to start, I would just say NO to adding races that pile on top of other races….you either choose a date that works out in your area to not conflict with other races or you just don’t put it on….

Again, this just creates issues every year, there is races that have been going for years and years on the same dates, weekends etc….Why would a promoter even want to put on a race on the same day as these races anyway?? I would not do it…If I was starting a new race or doing another race I just would not hone in on another day that has a race in my area to conflict with it…But that me I guess….Again this goes back to OBRA just saying no when this comes up….the schedule should come out with all the races that have been using the same days year after year…then people wanting to change their day or add a new race should have to do that with understanding what races are going on and depending on where you are in the state and if it could overlap other races and the people that attend these races....I mean it’s almost to the point where we should just put out days for Bid and the highest bidder gets those days… Again as I said yesterday, More is not always Better, Quality races that people look forward to each year is more important to me and getting the majority of racers there to race, not having them have to choose every weekend…..On the state race issue, looking at the attendance at many state races in the past several years…I would say, why bother in some cases….the effort that goes into putting on a race, and seeing the amount of people showing up at some state races, it just seems to me, 1… hard to call it  state championship in the first place, a lot of times it’s the city its in and becomes a city championship more than anything….State Championships should be a huge race for everyone every year….But again, there is so much racing that people don’t really seem to care by the attendance record, especially when its away from the Portland area…..So we can go back and forth on this forever, everyone has their thoughts, but again…why choose a day that already has an established race, your race will suffer, and it also takes away from a race that has been on-going for years, not just our race, this happens a lot in other races….why can’t OBRA just say no? moderate what goes on in the first place, then juggling days with other promoters is not an issue…..just my thoughts….

Jeff

ent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 10:43 PM
To: Jeff Tedder
Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Once again I think everybody is underestimating the difficulty of creating a schedule that does not have conflicts. Just look at the math:

- Between May and August there are 35 weekend days

- There are 10 days of OBRA championships that need to occur during that period. 

- There are 57 other weekend day races that people have placed on the schedule. Most of them are established races just as the HV crit is. 

- There are an unknown number of races that people might have put on but they did not wish to compete for a date with another race. 

Given the above it is inevitable that there will be days with more than one race. Actually if things are evenly distributed there will be 1.9 races each weekend day.  

If OBRA was in the business of limiting the number of races or eliminating any conflicts how would you propose to do that? Give championships precedence? Eliminate championships to free up space and decrease competition for other races? Prioritize races based on some criteria and axe the ones that have less of those criteria? How do you deal with the people involved in the production of the races that get eliminated?

Currently what OBRA does is facilitate communication between the people who are putting on races. The schedule is published months ahead of time. This allows those that can and wish to change dates to avoid conflict with another race to do so. Many races simply cannot change dates. It is not infrequent that people in such a bind just decide to not put on races. 

I also have to point out that the number of people willing to put on OBRA championship races is not unlimited or, actually, very large. If these races are going to happen OBRA needs to recognize the scheduling limitations for those people. 

Mike Murray

On May 10, 2016, at 21:12, Jeff Tedder via OBRA wrote:

I have been to promoters meetings and expressed how I feel and it did no good….it just seems to me, that the way things are allowed to run creates competition within the people that promote races…which in my mind is not good for racing…. If I was going to put on another race or start a new race…I would never pick a date that already had a race for 2 reasons….. 1, I would not want to push in someone elses date that has had an ongoing race for years, and 2, I think there is way to much on the schedule now and cramming races in, is not helping the attendance and any ones races….how is that good for racing in Oregon?  For whatever the reason, attendance at  state races and others is down if I recall….we have leveled off at the HV crit the last few years, but finally got it to a point where we make a few bucks for our efforts after 6 or 7 years….take 50 or 60 people out of the loop and we are back to luck if we break even…..Just seems to me for all our efforts, all promoters included you would want some kind of return to yourself or team for all the hard work…..

Not seeing how many races we can jam into the race schedule but making less races more quality events….The reason our race has become popular is we get tons of prizes and primes from sponsors and beyond to the point we are giving primes away almost every lap in some races….People love it, it’s a fun atmosphere and and we have a lot of followers now that love the venue and what we do… But I see many races on the schedule the past few years and then cancelled….reason???  not sure but I would guess a lot has to do with jamming other races onto those days and then its just not worth the effort…..So seems like that’s where OBRA has been leading itself the past several years…..and attendance is dropping, so I guess I put 2 and 2 together like many others that emailed me in the past 24 hours and its just not good for racing…..

Jeff        

From: kl_graham@comcast.net [mailto:kl_graham@comcast.net]
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:53 PM
To: sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
Cc: obra@list.obra.org; miker0629@yahoo.com
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Jeff

Since this platform you want to have and you're not wanting to work together on a solution, I wish you good luck on June 4th. This could have been figured out 24 hours ago, so don't worry about calling.

If you're at the upcoming promoters meeting, and you want to have this discussion face to face, I'm in. Straight conversation for a better solution.

But I've got my 5th race to promote, a cycling team to run, and to be an OBRA Official when needed. Other folks work hard as well, but I also feel the calendar needs work. It's up to us though to work together to find solutions in the interim.

Good luck in all your endeavor.

Kenny Graham

Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App

-----Original Message-----

From: sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
To: ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net,miker0629@yahoo.com,obra@list.obra.org
Sent: 2016-05-10 5:29:10 PM
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

That makes no sense to me and others…so you allow people to work their asses off building a race over years to the point now that it’s the favorite crit of the year for most people and then allow others to just take that date….I don’t think so….I have put way way way to much personal time and our teams help over the years to build this race into a great day to have that happen…and compae attendance at said races you want to allow to have priority….not so great….

From: Ron [mailto:ronfrerichs@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:24 PM
To: Jeff Tedder
Cc: Michael Richardson; kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

I completely agree with your first statement.

I suggest we allow Championship Race promoters to have first crack at the schedule, then let other promoters work around them.

Ron

On May 10, 2016, at 4:37 PM, Jeff Tedder via OBRA wrote:

Ya it is a worry, a state championship race should never be on the same day as any race….and we have been putting this race on for years, finally get to the point where we get good attendance and then this…..all this does is create a competition between people that pit races on……….Plus we have many many people that TT on our team and we need them to help put our race on…..so then what ? they have to skip a state championship because people cannot figure out that this is bad for racing,,,,stupid….

From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Michael Richardson via OBRA
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 1:26 PM
To: kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

No worries. 

Fast Twitch = crit

Slow Twitch = TT

Mike (all slow all the time myself)

On May 10, 2016, at 5:54 AM, via OBRA wrote:

We put this where there was space available and where time allowed. We have permits and registration is open.

No trying to under cut yall - but if we go any later in the calendar year, we run into issues with the local farmers.

I tried to email you last night about this, but your email rejected back to me.

If you would like to talk man to man about this, please call me directly at 5419059698.

Kenny

Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App

-----Original Message-----

From: obra@list.obra.org
To: bike-cyclisme@yahoogroups.com,jfbenenate@yahoo.com,lauradela67@icloud.com,obra@list.obra.org,sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
Cc:
Sent: 2016-05-09 11:57:11 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Ya and the Hammer Velo Crit is on June 4th, first  and biggest crit of the year…Why they piled a satate championship race on top of our long standing race is beyond me…

But ya’ll know its always a good one, with toms of prizes and primes..and always sunny : )

See ya, Jeff

Hammer Velo     

From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of John Benenate via OBRA
Sent: Monday, May 9, 2016 4:16 PM
To: OBRA List; yahoogroups; Laura Delahoussaye
Subject: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Just checkin'

The TTT Champ is May 21st?

and the TT Champ is June 4th?

Thanks,

jb

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Gregg Magnus

Wow, Mike, Candi and all of you of that have been around Oregon bike racing since the OCA days. You all remember the days when racing was run out of that little red trailer and Nissan pickup truck? The days when we had a couple dozen races from March to November. Big cyclocross races that had 50 people, now 1500+!!! Did you ever think OCA would grow to OBRA and we would be having a debate about too much racing in our organization?!?! Wow have we grown in such a few years!

We are so fortunate to have such a thriving racing scene in this state, I haven't raced much outside of Oregon but is there anywhere else that offers such a diverse, affordable opportunity to race?

All this negativity about too much racing seems totally counterintuitive to what the amazing successes and growth we have here.

All I see from this is way to go OBRA, racers, promoters, officials, team mangers, supporters. So many people that make OBRA what it is today...amazing.

My observations growing up in this organization.

Gregg Magnus

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 11, 2016, at 5:57 PM, Matthew Barney via OBRA wrote:
>
> While we're at it lets stop more Brewers from making beer, new roasters from making coffee, cut Toro Bravo off from opening new restaurants regardless of the name, stop further development of micro distilleries here in PDX, tell Rudy's we have enough barbershops, ask Salt and Straw to close a few locations.......
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On May 11, 2016, at 12:19 PM, via OBRA wrote:
>>
>> Maybe you don't allow more than one road event, track event, or off road event on the same days. Many different approaches could be explored and would minimize adverse impacts. I received 3 supportive replies to my last email on this topic not addressed to the whole list. Obviously, there is some support for exploring changes in this area. I don't think we should dismiss it out of hand.
>>
>> Michael Rosenberg
>>
>>
>>> On May 11, 2016, at 9:40 AM, Mike Murray via OBRA wrote:
>>>
>>> So … below are the scheduled weekend race days between May and August. Which ones get cut under your plan? Please also explain what OBRA will cut due to the decrease in revenue from having fewer races.
>>>
>>> Alpenrose Heartbreaker
>>> Alpenrose Six Day
>>> Alpenrose Velodrome Challenge
>>> Alpenrose Velodrome Challenge
>>> Alsea Falls Switchback
>>> Baker City Cycling Classic
>>> Baker City Cycling Classic
>>> Baker City Gran Fondo
>>> Barrel to Bay Gravel/Road Fondo
>>> Bear Springs Trap
>>> Blue Ribbon Track Omnium
>>> BriHOP Interstellar Omnium: Saturday
>>> BriHOP Interstellar Omnium: Sunday
>>> Cascade Cream Puff
>>> Chainbreaker
>>> Coast Hills Classic MTB Race
>>> Cooper Spur Short Track Weekend
>>> Cooper Spur Short Track Weekend
>>> Cooper Spur Spring XC
>>> Desert Orthopedics Bend Don't Brake Road Race
>>> FAT 55 Oakridge Mountain Bike Marathon
>>> Franz Bakery Criterium
>>> Hammer Velo Crit
>>> High Cascades 100
>>> High Desert Omnium: Criterium
>>> High Desert Omnium: Road Race
>>> High Desert Omnium: Time Trial
>>> Holtey Law Track Omnium
>>> Humbug Hurry Up
>>> Lewis & Clark 12/24 Hour Time Trial
>>> Mary's Peak Hill Climb TT
>>> MBSEF Thrilla Cyclocross Series
>>> MISSION: GranDuro
>>> MISSION: RunDuro
>>> Montinore Road Race
>>> Mt. Ashland Hill Climb Road Vs. Mt.
>>> Mt. Ashland Uphill Time Trial
>>> Mt. Man Challenge: Dog River Trail Super D
>>> Mt. Man Challenge: Mt Hood Skibowl
>>> OBRA Elite Track Championship
>>> OBRA Elite Track Championship
>>> OBRA Elite Track Championship
>>> OBRA Elite Track Championship
>>> OBRA Masters Track Championship
>>> OBRA Masters Track Championship
>>> OBRA RR Champs
>>> OBRA TT
>>> OBRA TTT
>>> OBRA Uphill Time Trial Championship
>>> Ochoco Gravel Roubaix
>>> Olympia Beer Crit
>>> Oregon Gran Fondo
>>> OUCH: Larch Mt Uphill Time Trial
>>> PDW Omnium
>>> PDX DEVO TRACK OMNIUM AND JUNIOR STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
>>> Pickett's Charge
>>> Return on the Jedi
>>> Sisters Stampede
>>> Six Hours of Mount Hood
>>> Slabtown Criterium
>>> Spring Thaw Mt. Bike Festival
>>> Spring Thaw Mt. Bike Festival
>>> The Galena Grinder 4point0
>>> Tour de St. Honore Gran Fondo
>>> Vancouver Criterium
>>> Washougal XC at the MX Park Race for the Future NICA Student League Fundraiser
>>> Willamette Gran Fondo
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> From: Jeff Tedder [mailto:sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com]
>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 08:30
>>> To: 'Mike Murray'
>>> Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com; obra@list.obra.org
>>> Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>>
>>> Well at this point, its like the homeless garbage camps in Portland….its kind of out of control and been let go to long and to the point that how do you fix it??
>>> That’s a good question…..these races that change days or are new races should not be allowed to be piled on other race days……Not just our race its many I am sure without looking at the schedule…If you choose to change your day then you have to fit in the schedule or not put it on….thats up to you…..if you have a date that you have been using and then you change that day, how is it fair to just say well I will put my race on the same day as some else that has had that day for years….how is this benefitting anyone in bike racing…Quality races are much better than splitting up obra members 2 or 3 ways sometimes….
>>> So at this point I am not sure how you fix it other than saying no…if people want to change days or add a day, just say no…..that atleast will stop it at this point and then the rest could be worked on from there…but continuing to allow this is not helping the problem….
>>> And complaining about state races has nothing to do with complaining about it effecting our race because they should never be put on the same day…. : )
>>> Maybe OBRA should promote all state championships? Along with help and volunteers from all obra teams to make it a group effort…. And have the same days each year on the schedule…and not have races piled on top of them as well…maybe people might get interested again? who knows?
>>> But if we have them, and they are called state championships then they should be a big deal for people and I guess us and OBRA have to make that happen…
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>>
>>> From: Mike Murray [mailto:mike.murray@obra.org]
>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 8:01 AM
>>> To: Jeff Tedder
>>> Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com; obra@list.obra.org
>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>>
>>> So Jeff, given that there are nearly twice as many weekend races on the schedule as there are days May through August, which half of the races would you have OBRA say no to? How would that determination be made? Please be specific. We know you want to cancel the race held the same day as your race. Please tell us what other races you would have OBRA cancel to reach your desired only one race per day schedule.
>>>
>>> I also have to point out that there is a logical flaw in complaining about poor attendance at OBRA championship races while simultaneously complaining about the effect on attendance at your race.
>>>
>>> Mike Murray
>>>
>>> On May 11, 2016, at 07:17, Jeff Tedder wrote:
>>>
>>> Well to start, I would just say NO to adding races that pile on top of other races….you either choose a date that works out in your area to not conflict with other races or you just don’t put it on….
>>> Again, this just creates issues every year, there is races that have been going for years and years on the same dates, weekends etc….Why would a promoter even want to put on a race on the same day as these races anyway?? I would not do it…If I was starting a new race or doing another race I just would not hone in on another day that has a race in my area to conflict with it…But that me I guess….Again this goes back to OBRA just saying no when this comes up….the schedule should come out with all the races that have been using the same days year after year…then people wanting to change their day or add a new race should have to do that with understanding what races are going on and depending on where you are in the state and if it could overlap other races and the people that attend these races....I mean it’s almost to the point where we should just put out days for Bid and the highest bidder gets those days… Again as I said yesterday, More is not always Better, Quality races that people look forward to each year is more important to me and getting the majority of racers there to race, not having them have to choose every weekend…..On the state race issue, looking at the attendance at many state races in the past several years…I would say, why bother in some cases….the effort that goes into putting on a race, and seeing the amount of people showing up at some state races, it just seems to me, 1… hard to call it state championship in the first place, a lot of times it’s the city its in and becomes a city championship more than anything….State Championships should be a huge race for everyone every year….But again, there is so much racing that people don’t really seem to care by the attendance record, especially when its away from the Portland area…..So we can go back and forth on this forever, everyone has their thoughts, but again…why choose a day that already has an established race, your race will suffer, and it also takes away from a race that has been on-going for years, not just our race, this happens a lot in other races….why can’t OBRA just say no? moderate what goes on in the first place, then juggling days with other promoters is not an issue…..just my thoughts….
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 10:43 PM
>>> To: Jeff Tedder
>>> Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com; obra@list.obra.org
>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>>
>>> Once again I think everybody is underestimating the difficulty of creating a schedule that does not have conflicts. Just look at the math:
>>>
>>> - Between May and August there are 35 weekend days
>>> - There are 10 days of OBRA championships that need to occur during that period.
>>> - There are 57 other weekend day races that people have placed on the schedule. Most of them are established races just as the HV crit is.
>>> - There are an unknown number of races that people might have put on but they did not wish to compete for a date with another race.
>>>
>>> Given the above it is inevitable that there will be days with more than one race. Actually if things are evenly distributed there will be 1.9 races each weekend day.
>>>
>>> If OBRA was in the business of limiting the number of races or eliminating any conflicts how would you propose to do that? Give championships precedence? Eliminate championships to free up space and decrease competition for other races? Prioritize races based on some criteria and axe the ones that have less of those criteria? How do you deal with the people involved in the production of the races that get eliminated?
>>>
>>> Currently what OBRA does is facilitate communication between the people who are putting on races. The schedule is published months ahead of time. This allows those that can and wish to change dates to avoid conflict with another race to do so. Many races simply cannot change dates. It is not infrequent that people in such a bind just decide to not put on races.
>>>
>>> I also have to point out that the number of people willing to put on OBRA championship races is not unlimited or, actually, very large. If these races are going to happen OBRA needs to recognize the scheduling limitations for those people.
>>>
>>> Mike Murray
>>>
>>> On May 10, 2016, at 21:12, Jeff Tedder via OBRA wrote:
>>>
>>> I have been to promoters meetings and expressed how I feel and it did no good….it just seems to me, that the way things are allowed to run creates competition within the people that promote races…which in my mind is not good for racing…. If I was going to put on another race or start a new race…I would never pick a date that already had a race for 2 reasons….. 1, I would not want to push in someone elses date that has had an ongoing race for years, and 2, I think there is way to much on the schedule now and cramming races in, is not helping the attendance and any ones races….how is that good for racing in Oregon? For whatever the reason, attendance at state races and others is down if I recall….we have leveled off at the HV crit the last few years, but finally got it to a point where we make a few bucks for our efforts after 6 or 7 years….take 50 or 60 people out of the loop and we are back to luck if we break even…..Just seems to me for all our efforts, all promoters included you would want some kind of return to yourself or team for all the hard work…..
>>> Not seeing how many races we can jam into the race schedule but making less races more quality events….The reason our race has become popular is we get tons of prizes and primes from sponsors and beyond to the point we are giving primes away almost every lap in some races….People love it, it’s a fun atmosphere and and we have a lot of followers now that love the venue and what we do… But I see many races on the schedule the past few years and then cancelled….reason??? not sure but I would guess a lot has to do with jamming other races onto those days and then its just not worth the effort…..So seems like that’s where OBRA has been leading itself the past several years…..and attendance is dropping, so I guess I put 2 and 2 together like many others that emailed me in the past 24 hours and its just not good for racing…..
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>> From: kl_graham@comcast.net [mailto:kl_graham@comcast.net]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:53 PM
>>> To: sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
>>> Cc: obra@list.obra.org; miker0629@yahoo.com
>>> Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>>
>>> Since this platform you want to have and you're not wanting to work together on a solution, I wish you good luck on June 4th. This could have been figured out 24 hours ago, so don't worry about calling.
>>>
>>> If you're at the upcoming promoters meeting, and you want to have this discussion face to face, I'm in. Straight conversation for a better solution.
>>>
>>> But I've got my 5th race to promote, a cycling team to run, and to be an OBRA Official when needed. Other folks work hard as well, but I also feel the calendar needs work. It's up to us though to work together to find solutions in the interim.
>>>
>>> Good luck in all your endeavor.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Kenny Graham
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>
>>> From: sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
>>> To: ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
>>> Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net,miker0629@yahoo.com,obra@list.obra.org
>>> Sent: 2016-05-10 5:29:10 PM
>>> Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>>
>>> That makes no sense to me and others…so you allow people to work their asses off building a race over years to the point now that it’s the favorite crit of the year for most people and then allow others to just take that date….I don’t think so….I have put way way way to much personal time and our teams help over the years to build this race into a great day to have that happen…and compae attendance at said races you want to allow to have priority….not so great….
>>>
>>> From: Ron [mailto:ronfrerichs@hotmail.com]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:24 PM
>>> To: Jeff Tedder
>>> Cc: Michael Richardson; kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>>
>>> I completely agree with your first statement.
>>>
>>> I suggest we allow Championship Race promoters to have first crack at the schedule, then let other promoters work around them.
>>>
>>> Ron
>>>
>>> On May 10, 2016, at 4:37 PM, Jeff Tedder via OBRA wrote:
>>>
>>> Ya it is a worry, a state championship race should never be on the same day as any race….and we have been putting this race on for years, finally get to the point where we get good attendance and then this…..all this does is create a competition between people that pit races on……….Plus we have many many people that TT on our team and we need them to help put our race on…..so then what ? they have to skip a state championship because people cannot figure out that this is bad for racing,,,,stupid….
>>> From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Michael Richardson via OBRA
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 1:26 PM
>>> To: kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>>
>>> No worries.
>>>
>>> Fast Twitch = crit
>>> Slow Twitch = TT
>>>
>>> Mike (all slow all the time myself)
>>>
>>> On May 10, 2016, at 5:54 AM, via OBRA wrote:
>>>
>>> We put this where there was space available and where time allowed. We have permits and registration is open.
>>>
>>> No trying to under cut yall - but if we go any later in the calendar year, we run into issues with the local farmers.
>>>
>>> I tried to email you last night about this, but your email rejected back to me.
>>>
>>> If you would like to talk man to man about this, please call me directly at 5419059698.
>>>
>>> Kenny
>>>
>>> Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>
>>> From: obra@list.obra.org
>>> To: bike-cyclisme@yahoogroups.com,jfbenenate@yahoo.com,lauradela67@icloud.com,obra@list.obra.org,sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
>>> Cc:
>>> Sent: 2016-05-09 11:57:11 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>>
>>>
>>> Ya and the Hammer Velo Crit is on June 4th, first and biggest crit of the year…Why they piled a satate championship race on top of our long standing race is beyond me…
>>> But ya’ll know its always a good one, with toms of prizes and primes..and always sunny : )
>>>
>>> See ya, Jeff
>>> Hammer Velo
>>>
>>> From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of John Benenate via OBRA
>>> Sent: Monday, May 9, 2016 4:16 PM
>>> To: OBRA List; yahoogroups; Laura Delahoussaye
>>> Subject: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>>
>>> Just checkin'
>>> The TTT Champ is May 21st?
>>> and the TT Champ is June 4th?
>>> Thanks,
>>> jb
>>> _______________________________________________ OBRA mailing list obra@list.obra.org http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
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>> _______________________________________________
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Matthew Barney

While we're at it lets stop more Brewers from making beer, new roasters from making coffee, cut Toro Bravo off from opening new restaurants regardless of the name, stop further development of micro distilleries here in PDX, tell Rudy's we have enough barbershops, ask Salt and Straw to close a few locations.......

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 11, 2016, at 12:19 PM, via OBRA wrote:
>
> Maybe you don't allow more than one road event, track event, or off road event on the same days. Many different approaches could be explored and would minimize adverse impacts. I received 3 supportive replies to my last email on this topic not addressed to the whole list. Obviously, there is some support for exploring changes in this area. I don't think we should dismiss it out of hand.
>
> Michael Rosenberg
>
>
>> On May 11, 2016, at 9:40 AM, Mike Murray via OBRA wrote:
>>
>> So … below are the scheduled weekend race days between May and August. Which ones get cut under your plan? Please also explain what OBRA will cut due to the decrease in revenue from having fewer races.
>>
>> Alpenrose Heartbreaker
>> Alpenrose Six Day
>> Alpenrose Velodrome Challenge
>> Alpenrose Velodrome Challenge
>> Alsea Falls Switchback
>> Baker City Cycling Classic
>> Baker City Cycling Classic
>> Baker City Gran Fondo
>> Barrel to Bay Gravel/Road Fondo
>> Bear Springs Trap
>> Blue Ribbon Track Omnium
>> BriHOP Interstellar Omnium: Saturday
>> BriHOP Interstellar Omnium: Sunday
>> Cascade Cream Puff
>> Chainbreaker
>> Coast Hills Classic MTB Race
>> Cooper Spur Short Track Weekend
>> Cooper Spur Short Track Weekend
>> Cooper Spur Spring XC
>> Desert Orthopedics Bend Don't Brake Road Race
>> FAT 55 Oakridge Mountain Bike Marathon
>> Franz Bakery Criterium
>> Hammer Velo Crit
>> High Cascades 100
>> High Desert Omnium: Criterium
>> High Desert Omnium: Road Race
>> High Desert Omnium: Time Trial
>> Holtey Law Track Omnium
>> Humbug Hurry Up
>> Lewis & Clark 12/24 Hour Time Trial
>> Mary's Peak Hill Climb TT
>> MBSEF Thrilla Cyclocross Series
>> MISSION: GranDuro
>> MISSION: RunDuro
>> Montinore Road Race
>> Mt. Ashland Hill Climb Road Vs. Mt.
>> Mt. Ashland Uphill Time Trial
>> Mt. Man Challenge: Dog River Trail Super D
>> Mt. Man Challenge: Mt Hood Skibowl
>> OBRA Elite Track Championship
>> OBRA Elite Track Championship
>> OBRA Elite Track Championship
>> OBRA Elite Track Championship
>> OBRA Masters Track Championship
>> OBRA Masters Track Championship
>> OBRA RR Champs
>> OBRA TT
>> OBRA TTT
>> OBRA Uphill Time Trial Championship
>> Ochoco Gravel Roubaix
>> Olympia Beer Crit
>> Oregon Gran Fondo
>> OUCH: Larch Mt Uphill Time Trial
>> PDW Omnium
>> PDX DEVO TRACK OMNIUM AND JUNIOR STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
>> Pickett's Charge
>> Return on the Jedi
>> Sisters Stampede
>> Six Hours of Mount Hood
>> Slabtown Criterium
>> Spring Thaw Mt. Bike Festival
>> Spring Thaw Mt. Bike Festival
>> The Galena Grinder 4point0
>> Tour de St. Honore Gran Fondo
>> Vancouver Criterium
>> Washougal XC at the MX Park Race for the Future NICA Student League Fundraiser
>> Willamette Gran Fondo
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> From: Jeff Tedder [mailto:sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 08:30
>> To: 'Mike Murray'
>> Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com; obra@list.obra.org
>> Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>
>> Well at this point, its like the homeless garbage camps in Portland….its kind of out of control and been let go to long and to the point that how do you fix it??
>> That’s a good question…..these races that change days or are new races should not be allowed to be piled on other race days……Not just our race its many I am sure without looking at the schedule…If you choose to change your day then you have to fit in the schedule or not put it on….thats up to you…..if you have a date that you have been using and then you change that day, how is it fair to just say well I will put my race on the same day as some else that has had that day for years….how is this benefitting anyone in bike racing…Quality races are much better than splitting up obra members 2 or 3 ways sometimes….
>> So at this point I am not sure how you fix it other than saying no…if people want to change days or add a day, just say no…..that atleast will stop it at this point and then the rest could be worked on from there…but continuing to allow this is not helping the problem….
>> And complaining about state races has nothing to do with complaining about it effecting our race because they should never be put on the same day…. : )
>> Maybe OBRA should promote all state championships? Along with help and volunteers from all obra teams to make it a group effort…. And have the same days each year on the schedule…and not have races piled on top of them as well…maybe people might get interested again? who knows?
>> But if we have them, and they are called state championships then they should be a big deal for people and I guess us and OBRA have to make that happen…
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>> From: Mike Murray [mailto:mike.murray@obra.org]
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 8:01 AM
>> To: Jeff Tedder
>> Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com; obra@list.obra.org
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>
>> So Jeff, given that there are nearly twice as many weekend races on the schedule as there are days May through August, which half of the races would you have OBRA say no to? How would that determination be made? Please be specific. We know you want to cancel the race held the same day as your race. Please tell us what other races you would have OBRA cancel to reach your desired only one race per day schedule.
>>
>> I also have to point out that there is a logical flaw in complaining about poor attendance at OBRA championship races while simultaneously complaining about the effect on attendance at your race.
>>
>> Mike Murray
>>
>> On May 11, 2016, at 07:17, Jeff Tedder wrote:
>>
>> Well to start, I would just say NO to adding races that pile on top of other races….you either choose a date that works out in your area to not conflict with other races or you just don’t put it on….
>> Again, this just creates issues every year, there is races that have been going for years and years on the same dates, weekends etc….Why would a promoter even want to put on a race on the same day as these races anyway?? I would not do it…If I was starting a new race or doing another race I just would not hone in on another day that has a race in my area to conflict with it…But that me I guess….Again this goes back to OBRA just saying no when this comes up….the schedule should come out with all the races that have been using the same days year after year…then people wanting to change their day or add a new race should have to do that with understanding what races are going on and depending on where you are in the state and if it could overlap other races and the people that attend these races....I mean it’s almost to the point where we should just put out days for Bid and the highest bidder gets those days… Again as I said yesterday, More is not always Better, Quality races that people look forward to each year is more important to me and getting the majority of racers there to race, not having them have to choose every weekend…..On the state race issue, looking at the attendance at many state races in the past several years…I would say, why bother in some cases….the effort that goes into putting on a race, and seeing the amount of people showing up at some state races, it just seems to me, 1… hard to call it state championship in the first place, a lot of times it’s the city its in and becomes a city championship more than anything….State Championships should be a huge race for everyone every year….But again, there is so much racing that people don’t really seem to care by the attendance record, especially when its away from the Portland area…..So we can go back and forth on this forever, everyone has their thoughts, but again…why choose a day that already has an established race, your race will suffer, and it also takes away from a race that has been on-going for years, not just our race, this happens a lot in other races….why can’t OBRA just say no? moderate what goes on in the first place, then juggling days with other promoters is not an issue…..just my thoughts….
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>>
>> ent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 10:43 PM
>> To: Jeff Tedder
>> Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com; obra@list.obra.org
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>
>> Once again I think everybody is underestimating the difficulty of creating a schedule that does not have conflicts. Just look at the math:
>>
>> - Between May and August there are 35 weekend days
>> - There are 10 days of OBRA championships that need to occur during that period.
>> - There are 57 other weekend day races that people have placed on the schedule. Most of them are established races just as the HV crit is.
>> - There are an unknown number of races that people might have put on but they did not wish to compete for a date with another race.
>>
>> Given the above it is inevitable that there will be days with more than one race. Actually if things are evenly distributed there will be 1.9 races each weekend day.
>>
>> If OBRA was in the business of limiting the number of races or eliminating any conflicts how would you propose to do that? Give championships precedence? Eliminate championships to free up space and decrease competition for other races? Prioritize races based on some criteria and axe the ones that have less of those criteria? How do you deal with the people involved in the production of the races that get eliminated?
>>
>> Currently what OBRA does is facilitate communication between the people who are putting on races. The schedule is published months ahead of time. This allows those that can and wish to change dates to avoid conflict with another race to do so. Many races simply cannot change dates. It is not infrequent that people in such a bind just decide to not put on races.
>>
>> I also have to point out that the number of people willing to put on OBRA championship races is not unlimited or, actually, very large. If these races are going to happen OBRA needs to recognize the scheduling limitations for those people.
>>
>> Mike Murray
>>
>> On May 10, 2016, at 21:12, Jeff Tedder via OBRA wrote:
>>
>> I have been to promoters meetings and expressed how I feel and it did no good….it just seems to me, that the way things are allowed to run creates competition within the people that promote races…which in my mind is not good for racing…. If I was going to put on another race or start a new race…I would never pick a date that already had a race for 2 reasons….. 1, I would not want to push in someone elses date that has had an ongoing race for years, and 2, I think there is way to much on the schedule now and cramming races in, is not helping the attendance and any ones races….how is that good for racing in Oregon? For whatever the reason, attendance at state races and others is down if I recall….we have leveled off at the HV crit the last few years, but finally got it to a point where we make a few bucks for our efforts after 6 or 7 years….take 50 or 60 people out of the loop and we are back to luck if we break even…..Just seems to me for all our efforts, all promoters included you would want some kind of return to yourself or team for all the hard work…..
>> Not seeing how many races we can jam into the race schedule but making less races more quality events….The reason our race has become popular is we get tons of prizes and primes from sponsors and beyond to the point we are giving primes away almost every lap in some races….People love it, it’s a fun atmosphere and and we have a lot of followers now that love the venue and what we do… But I see many races on the schedule the past few years and then cancelled….reason??? not sure but I would guess a lot has to do with jamming other races onto those days and then its just not worth the effort…..So seems like that’s where OBRA has been leading itself the past several years…..and attendance is dropping, so I guess I put 2 and 2 together like many others that emailed me in the past 24 hours and its just not good for racing…..
>>
>> Jeff
>> From: kl_graham@comcast.net [mailto:kl_graham@comcast.net]
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:53 PM
>> To: sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
>> Cc: obra@list.obra.org; miker0629@yahoo.com
>> Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>> Since this platform you want to have and you're not wanting to work together on a solution, I wish you good luck on June 4th. This could have been figured out 24 hours ago, so don't worry about calling.
>>
>> If you're at the upcoming promoters meeting, and you want to have this discussion face to face, I'm in. Straight conversation for a better solution.
>>
>> But I've got my 5th race to promote, a cycling team to run, and to be an OBRA Official when needed. Other folks work hard as well, but I also feel the calendar needs work. It's up to us though to work together to find solutions in the interim.
>>
>> Good luck in all your endeavor.
>>
>>
>>
>> Kenny Graham
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>> From: sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
>> To: ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
>> Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net,miker0629@yahoo.com,obra@list.obra.org
>> Sent: 2016-05-10 5:29:10 PM
>> Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>
>> That makes no sense to me and others…so you allow people to work their asses off building a race over years to the point now that it’s the favorite crit of the year for most people and then allow others to just take that date….I don’t think so….I have put way way way to much personal time and our teams help over the years to build this race into a great day to have that happen…and compae attendance at said races you want to allow to have priority….not so great….
>>
>> From: Ron [mailto:ronfrerichs@hotmail.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:24 PM
>> To: Jeff Tedder
>> Cc: Michael Richardson; kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>
>> I completely agree with your first statement.
>>
>> I suggest we allow Championship Race promoters to have first crack at the schedule, then let other promoters work around them.
>>
>> Ron
>>
>> On May 10, 2016, at 4:37 PM, Jeff Tedder via OBRA wrote:
>>
>> Ya it is a worry, a state championship race should never be on the same day as any race….and we have been putting this race on for years, finally get to the point where we get good attendance and then this…..all this does is create a competition between people that pit races on……….Plus we have many many people that TT on our team and we need them to help put our race on…..so then what ? they have to skip a state championship because people cannot figure out that this is bad for racing,,,,stupid….
>> From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Michael Richardson via OBRA
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 1:26 PM
>> To: kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>
>> No worries.
>>
>> Fast Twitch = crit
>> Slow Twitch = TT
>>
>> Mike (all slow all the time myself)
>>
>> On May 10, 2016, at 5:54 AM, via OBRA wrote:
>>
>> We put this where there was space available and where time allowed. We have permits and registration is open.
>>
>> No trying to under cut yall - but if we go any later in the calendar year, we run into issues with the local farmers.
>>
>> I tried to email you last night about this, but your email rejected back to me.
>>
>> If you would like to talk man to man about this, please call me directly at 5419059698.
>>
>> Kenny
>>
>> Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>> From: obra@list.obra.org
>> To: bike-cyclisme@yahoogroups.com,jfbenenate@yahoo.com,lauradela67@icloud.com,obra@list.obra.org,sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
>> Cc:
>> Sent: 2016-05-09 11:57:11 PM
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>
>>
>> Ya and the Hammer Velo Crit is on June 4th, first and biggest crit of the year…Why they piled a satate championship race on top of our long standing race is beyond me…
>> But ya’ll know its always a good one, with toms of prizes and primes..and always sunny : )
>>
>> See ya, Jeff
>> Hammer Velo
>>
>> From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of John Benenate via OBRA
>> Sent: Monday, May 9, 2016 4:16 PM
>> To: OBRA List; yahoogroups; Laura Delahoussaye
>> Subject: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>
>> Just checkin'
>> The TTT Champ is May 21st?
>> and the TT Champ is June 4th?
>> Thanks,
>> jb
>> _______________________________________________ OBRA mailing list obra@list.obra.org http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> _______________________________________________
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>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> _______________________________________________
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>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
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> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

adam holt

As a CX racing non-roadie, I'll say that's the worst idea I've ever heard... Ever.

Adam

> On May 11, 2016, at 4:18 PM, LORI BRAULT via OBRA wrote:
>
> Yeah!
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On May 11, 2016, at 12:33 PM, Robert via OBRA wrote:
>>
>> I will support that! Sounds like a great idea.
>>
>>> On May 11, 2016 11:48:52 AM PDT, Adam Angert via OBRA wrote:
>>> I would propose a rule change that restricts the CX season to October - January and designates September as "State Championship Month." Run all the Road and Track State Championship races in September. This relieves some scheduling pressure during the current regular season and perhaps would encourage more CX racers to participate in road races... just my two cents :)
>>>
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>> --
>> >^•.•^<
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
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> obra@list.obra.org
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> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

jo..@aracnet.com

We had a couple of events where there were conflicts AIR. Yesm we DID
schedule
First Aid through you, but it was nip-and tuck about getting coverage.

Thats all.

On 2016-05-11 15:05, Mike Murray via OBRA wrote:
> I have to point out Joe never worried about medical (more accurately
> first
> aid) as all he ever did, like most race organizers, is ask me to
> schedule
> someone. I also should point out that scheduling first aid is a program
> that
> I have been running for over 30 years without compensation. I would be
> glad
> to give that up to someone younger and more energetic now that I am no
> longer the only doctor EM doctor in OR that races bikes. Any takers?
>
> Similarly race organizers never have had to worry about officials as
> those
> get assigned by OBRA.
>
> I do remember there being a schedule of spreading out the championship
> races. This pretty much failed due to people wanting specific dates for
> non-championship events that conflicted with the championship schedule
> as
> well as low attendance for end of the season championship events.
>
> Mike
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: joec@aracnet.com [mailto:joec@aracnet.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 13:54
> To: Mike Murray
> Cc: Jeff Tedder; obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>
> A few years ago, there WAS a promoters meeting in which members from
> OBRA
> and WSBA(?) attended. The goal being to do a better job of scehduling
> events.
> Specifically Championship events. It was a given that there WOULD be
> conflicts.
> But the goal was to give Champ events first shot at weekends and NOT
> have
> multiple champ events on the same weekend. Dates were set and the
> calendar
> was setup relatively quickly based on what weekends were available.
> There was
> buy-in from all promoters in attendance and, as I recall, the
> contingent
> from Washington thought that the process was a good one and took the
> idea
> back to try it on their calendar as well.
>
> This lasted one (1) season before all hell returned and the schedule
> was
> once more tossed around like lettuce in a salad spinner. That was the
> last
> year I promoted any event. (2011 if I recall). I simply got tired of
> trying
> to manage MY event, Other's dates, worrying about medical, officials,
> etc in
> addition to the permitting process.
>
> Joe
>
>
> On 2016-05-10 22:42, Mike Murray via OBRA wrote:
>> Once again I think everybody is underestimating the difficulty of
>> creating a schedule that does not have conflicts. Just look at the
>> math:
>>
>> - Between May and August there are 35 weekend days
>> - There are 10 days of OBRA championships that need to occur during
>> that period.
>> - There are 57 other weekend day races that people have placed on the
>> schedule. Most of them are established races just as the HV crit is.
>> - There are an unknown number of races that people might have put on
>> but they did not wish to compete for a date with another race.
>>
>> Given the above it is inevitable that there will be days with more
>> than one race. Actually if things are evenly distributed there will be
>> 1.9 races each weekend day.
>>
>> If OBRA was in the business of limiting the number of races or
>> eliminating any conflicts how would you propose to do that? Give
>> championships precedence? Eliminate championships to free up space and
>> decrease competition for other races? Prioritize races based on some
>> criteria and axe the ones that have less of those criteria? How do you
>> deal with the people involved in the production of the races that get
>> eliminated?
>>
>> Currently what OBRA does is facilitate communication between the
>> people who are putting on races. The schedule is published months
>> ahead of time. This allows those that can and wish to change dates to
>> avoid conflict with another race to do so. Many races simply cannot
>> change dates. It is not infrequent that people in such a bind just
>> decide to not put on races.
>>
>> I also have to point out that the number of people willing to put on
>> OBRA championship races is not unlimited or, actually, very large. If
>> these races are going to happen OBRA needs to recognize the scheduling
>> limitations for those people.
>>
>> Mike Murray
>>
>> On May 10, 2016, at 21:12, Jeff Tedder via OBRA
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I have been to promoters meetings and expressed how I feel and it did
>>> no good���.it just seems to me, that the way things are allowed to run
>>> creates competition within the people that promote races���which in my
>>> mind is not good for racing���. If I was going to put on another race
>>> or start a new race���I would never pick a date that already had a race
>>> for 2 reasons���.. 1, I would not want to push in someone elses date
>>> that has had an ongoing race for years, and 2, I think there is way
>>> to much on the schedule now and cramming races in, is not helping the
>>> attendance and any ones races���.how is that good for racing in Oregon?
>>> For whatever the reason, attendance at state races and others is
>>> down if I recall���.we have leveled off at the HV crit the last few
>>> years, but finally got it to a point where we make a few bucks for
>>> our efforts after 6 or 7 years���.take 50 or 60 people out of the loop
>>> and we are back to luck if we break even���..Just seems to me for all
>>> our efforts, all promoters included you would want some kind of
>>> return to yourself or team for all the hard work���..
>>>
>>> Not seeing how many races we can jam into the race schedule but
>>> making less races more quality events���.The reason our race has become
>>> popular is we get tons of prizes and primes from sponsors and beyond
>>> to the point we are giving primes away almost every lap in some
>>> races���.People love it, it���s a fun atmosphere and and we have a lot of
>>> followers now that love the venue and what we do��� But I see many
>>> races on the schedule the past few years and then
>>> cancelled���.reason??? not sure but I would guess a lot has to do with
>>> jamming other races onto those days and then its just not worth the
>>> effort���..So seems like that���s where OBRA has been leading itself the
>>> past several years���..and attendance is dropping, so I guess I put 2
>>> and 2 together like many others that emailed me in the past 24 hours
>>> and its just not good for racing���..
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>>
>>> FROM: kl_graham@comcast.net [mailto:kl_graham@comcast.net]
>>> SENT: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:53 PM
>>> TO: sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
>>> CC: obra@list.obra.org; miker0629@yahoo.com
>>> SUBJECT: RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>>
>>> Since this platform you want to have and you're not wanting to work
>>> together on a solution, I wish you good luck on June 4th. This could
>>> have been figured out 24 hours ago, so don't worry about calling.
>>>
>>> If you're at the upcoming promoters meeting, and you want to have
>>> this discussion face to face, I'm in. Straight conversation for a
>>> better solution.
>>>
>>> But I've got my 5th race to promote, a cycling team to run, and to be
>>> an OBRA Official when needed. Other folks work hard as well, but I
>>> also feel the calendar needs work. It's up to us though to work
>>> together to find solutions in the interim.
>>>
>>> Good luck in all your endeavor.
>>>
>>> Kenny Graham
>>>
>>> Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>
>>> From: sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
>>> To: ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
>>> Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net,miker0629@yahoo.com,obra@list.obra.org
>>> Sent: 2016-05-10 5:29:10 PM
>>> Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>>
>>> That makes no sense to me and others���so you allow people to work
>>> their asses off building a race over years to the point now that it���s
>>> the favorite crit of the year for most people and then allow others
>>> to just take that date���.I don���t think so���.I have put way way way to
>>> much personal time and our teams help over the years to build this
>>> race into a great day to have that happen���and compae attendance at
>>> said races you want to allow to have priority���.not so great���.
>>>
>>> FROM: Ron [mailto:ronfrerichs@hotmail.com]
>>> SENT: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:24 PM
>>> TO: Jeff Tedder
>>> CC: Michael Richardson; kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
>>> SUBJECT: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>>
>>> I completely agree with your first statement.
>>>
>>> I suggest we allow Championship Race promoters to have first crack at
>>> the schedule, then let other promoters work around them.
>>>
>>> Ron
>>>
>>> On May 10, 2016, at 4:37 PM, Jeff Tedder via OBRA
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Ya it is a worry, a state championship race should never be on the
>>> same day as any race���.and we have been putting this race on for
>>> years, finally get to the point where we get good attendance and then
>>> this���..all this does is create a competition between people that pit
>>> races on���������.Plus we have many many people that TT on our team and we
>>> need them to help put our race on���..so then what ?
>>> they have to skip a state championship because people cannot figure
>>> out that this is bad for racing,,,,stupid���.
>>>
>>> FROM: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] ON BEHALF OF Michael
>>> Richardson via OBRA
>>> SENT: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 1:26 PM
>>> TO: kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
>>> SUBJECT: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>>
>>> No worries.
>>>
>>> Fast Twitch = crit
>>>
>>> Slow Twitch = TT
>>>
>>> Mike (all slow all the time myself)
>>>
>>> On May 10, 2016, at 5:54 AM, via OBRA wrote:
>>>
>>> We put this where there was space available and where time allowed.
>>> We have permits and registration is open.
>>>
>>> No trying to under cut yall - but if we go any later in the calendar
>>> year, we run into issues with the local farmers.
>>>
>>> I tried to email you last night about this, but your email rejected
>>> back to me.
>>>
>>> If you would like to talk man to man about this, please call me
>>> directly at 5419059698.
>>>
>>> Kenny
>>>
>>> Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>
>>> From: obra@list.obra.org
>>> To:
>>>
>> bike-cyclisme@yahoogroups.com,jfbenenate@yahoo.com,lauradela67@icloud.
>> com,obra@list.obra.org,sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
>>> Cc:
>>> Sent: 2016-05-09 11:57:11 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>>
>>> Ya and the Hammer Velo Crit is on June 4th, first and biggest crit
>>> of the year���Why they piled a satate championship race on top of our
>>> long standing race is beyond me���
>>>
>>> But ya���ll know its always a good one, with toms of prizes and
>>> primes..and always sunny : )
>>>
>>> See ya, Jeff
>>>
>>> Hammer Velo
>>>
>>> FROM: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] ON BEHALF OF John
>>> Benenate via OBRA
>>> SENT: Monday, May 9, 2016 4:16 PM
>>> TO: OBRA List; yahoogroups; Laura Delahoussaye
>>> SUBJECT: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>>
>>> Just checkin'
>>>
>>> The TTT Champ is May 21st?
>>>
>>> and the TT Champ is June 4th?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> jb
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

LORI BRAULT

Yeah!

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 11, 2016, at 12:33 PM, Robert via OBRA wrote:
>
> I will support that! Sounds like a great idea.
>
>> On May 11, 2016 11:48:52 AM PDT, Adam Angert via OBRA wrote:
>> I would propose a rule change that restricts the CX season to October - January and designates September as "State Championship Month." Run all the Road and Track State Championship races in September. This relieves some scheduling pressure during the current regular season and perhaps would encourage more CX racers to participate in road races... just my two cents :)
>>
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> --
> >^•.•^<
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Mike Murray

I have to point out Joe never worried about medical (more accurately first
aid) as all he ever did, like most race organizers, is ask me to schedule
someone. I also should point out that scheduling first aid is a program that
I have been running for over 30 years without compensation. I would be glad
to give that up to someone younger and more energetic now that I am no
longer the only doctor EM doctor in OR that races bikes. Any takers?

Similarly race organizers never have had to worry about officials as those
get assigned by OBRA.

I do remember there being a schedule of spreading out the championship
races. This pretty much failed due to people wanting specific dates for
non-championship events that conflicted with the championship schedule as
well as low attendance for end of the season championship events.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: joec@aracnet.com [mailto:joec@aracnet.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 13:54
To: Mike Murray
Cc: Jeff Tedder; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

A few years ago, there WAS a promoters meeting in which members from OBRA
and WSBA(?) attended. The goal being to do a better job of scehduling
events.
Specifically Championship events. It was a given that there WOULD be
conflicts.
But the goal was to give Champ events first shot at weekends and NOT have
multiple champ events on the same weekend. Dates were set and the calendar
was setup relatively quickly based on what weekends were available.
There was
buy-in from all promoters in attendance and, as I recall, the contingent
from Washington thought that the process was a good one and took the idea
back to try it on their calendar as well.

This lasted one (1) season before all hell returned and the schedule was
once more tossed around like lettuce in a salad spinner. That was the last
year I promoted any event. (2011 if I recall). I simply got tired of trying
to manage MY event, Other's dates, worrying about medical, officials, etc in
addition to the permitting process.

Joe

On 2016-05-10 22:42, Mike Murray via OBRA wrote:
> Once again I think everybody is underestimating the difficulty of
> creating a schedule that does not have conflicts. Just look at the
> math:
>
> - Between May and August there are 35 weekend days
> - There are 10 days of OBRA championships that need to occur during
> that period.
> - There are 57 other weekend day races that people have placed on the
> schedule. Most of them are established races just as the HV crit is.
> - There are an unknown number of races that people might have put on
> but they did not wish to compete for a date with another race.
>
> Given the above it is inevitable that there will be days with more
> than one race. Actually if things are evenly distributed there will be
> 1.9 races each weekend day.
>
> If OBRA was in the business of limiting the number of races or
> eliminating any conflicts how would you propose to do that? Give
> championships precedence? Eliminate championships to free up space and
> decrease competition for other races? Prioritize races based on some
> criteria and axe the ones that have less of those criteria? How do you
> deal with the people involved in the production of the races that get
> eliminated?
>
> Currently what OBRA does is facilitate communication between the
> people who are putting on races. The schedule is published months
> ahead of time. This allows those that can and wish to change dates to
> avoid conflict with another race to do so. Many races simply cannot
> change dates. It is not infrequent that people in such a bind just
> decide to not put on races.
>
> I also have to point out that the number of people willing to put on
> OBRA championship races is not unlimited or, actually, very large. If
> these races are going to happen OBRA needs to recognize the scheduling
> limitations for those people.
>
> Mike Murray
>
> On May 10, 2016, at 21:12, Jeff Tedder via OBRA
> wrote:
>
>> I have been to promoters meetings and expressed how I feel and it did
>> no good���.it just seems to me, that the way things are allowed to run
>> creates competition within the people that promote races���which in my
>> mind is not good for racing���. If I was going to put on another race
>> or start a new race���I would never pick a date that already had a race
>> for 2 reasons���.. 1, I would not want to push in someone elses date
>> that has had an ongoing race for years, and 2, I think there is way
>> to much on the schedule now and cramming races in, is not helping the
>> attendance and any ones races���.how is that good for racing in Oregon?
>> For whatever the reason, attendance at state races and others is
>> down if I recall���.we have leveled off at the HV crit the last few
>> years, but finally got it to a point where we make a few bucks for
>> our efforts after 6 or 7 years���.take 50 or 60 people out of the loop
>> and we are back to luck if we break even���..Just seems to me for all
>> our efforts, all promoters included you would want some kind of
>> return to yourself or team for all the hard work���..
>>
>> Not seeing how many races we can jam into the race schedule but
>> making less races more quality events���.The reason our race has become
>> popular is we get tons of prizes and primes from sponsors and beyond
>> to the point we are giving primes away almost every lap in some
>> races���.People love it, it���s a fun atmosphere and and we have a lot of
>> followers now that love the venue and what we do��� But I see many
>> races on the schedule the past few years and then
>> cancelled���.reason??? not sure but I would guess a lot has to do with
>> jamming other races onto those days and then its just not worth the
>> effort���..So seems like that���s where OBRA has been leading itself the
>> past several years���..and attendance is dropping, so I guess I put 2
>> and 2 together like many others that emailed me in the past 24 hours
>> and its just not good for racing���..
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>> FROM: kl_graham@comcast.net [mailto:kl_graham@comcast.net]
>> SENT: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:53 PM
>> TO: sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
>> CC: obra@list.obra.org; miker0629@yahoo.com
>> SUBJECT: RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>> Since this platform you want to have and you're not wanting to work
>> together on a solution, I wish you good luck on June 4th. This could
>> have been figured out 24 hours ago, so don't worry about calling.
>>
>> If you're at the upcoming promoters meeting, and you want to have
>> this discussion face to face, I'm in. Straight conversation for a
>> better solution.
>>
>> But I've got my 5th race to promote, a cycling team to run, and to be
>> an OBRA Official when needed. Other folks work hard as well, but I
>> also feel the calendar needs work. It's up to us though to work
>> together to find solutions in the interim.
>>
>> Good luck in all your endeavor.
>>
>> Kenny Graham
>>
>> Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>> From: sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
>> To: ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
>> Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net,miker0629@yahoo.com,obra@list.obra.org
>> Sent: 2016-05-10 5:29:10 PM
>> Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>
>> That makes no sense to me and others���so you allow people to work
>> their asses off building a race over years to the point now that it���s
>> the favorite crit of the year for most people and then allow others
>> to just take that date���.I don���t think so���.I have put way way way to
>> much personal time and our teams help over the years to build this
>> race into a great day to have that happen���and compae attendance at
>> said races you want to allow to have priority���.not so great���.
>>
>> FROM: Ron [mailto:ronfrerichs@hotmail.com]
>> SENT: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:24 PM
>> TO: Jeff Tedder
>> CC: Michael Richardson; kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
>> SUBJECT: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>
>> I completely agree with your first statement.
>>
>> I suggest we allow Championship Race promoters to have first crack at
>> the schedule, then let other promoters work around them.
>>
>> Ron
>>
>> On May 10, 2016, at 4:37 PM, Jeff Tedder via OBRA
>> wrote:
>>
>> Ya it is a worry, a state championship race should never be on the
>> same day as any race���.and we have been putting this race on for
>> years, finally get to the point where we get good attendance and then
>> this���..all this does is create a competition between people that pit
>> races on���������.Plus we have many many people that TT on our team and we
>> need them to help put our race on���..so then what ?
>> they have to skip a state championship because people cannot figure
>> out that this is bad for racing,,,,stupid���.
>>
>> FROM: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] ON BEHALF OF Michael
>> Richardson via OBRA
>> SENT: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 1:26 PM
>> TO: kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
>> SUBJECT: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>
>> No worries.
>>
>> Fast Twitch = crit
>>
>> Slow Twitch = TT
>>
>> Mike (all slow all the time myself)
>>
>> On May 10, 2016, at 5:54 AM, via OBRA wrote:
>>
>> We put this where there was space available and where time allowed.
>> We have permits and registration is open.
>>
>> No trying to under cut yall - but if we go any later in the calendar
>> year, we run into issues with the local farmers.
>>
>> I tried to email you last night about this, but your email rejected
>> back to me.
>>
>> If you would like to talk man to man about this, please call me
>> directly at 5419059698.
>>
>> Kenny
>>
>> Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>> From: obra@list.obra.org
>> To:
>>
> bike-cyclisme@yahoogroups.com,jfbenenate@yahoo.com,lauradela67@icloud.
> com,obra@list.obra.org,sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
>> Cc:
>> Sent: 2016-05-09 11:57:11 PM
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>
>> Ya and the Hammer Velo Crit is on June 4th, first and biggest crit
>> of the year���Why they piled a satate championship race on top of our
>> long standing race is beyond me���
>>
>> But ya���ll know its always a good one, with toms of prizes and
>> primes..and always sunny : )
>>
>> See ya, Jeff
>>
>> Hammer Velo
>>
>> FROM: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] ON BEHALF OF John
>> Benenate via OBRA
>> SENT: Monday, May 9, 2016 4:16 PM
>> TO: OBRA List; yahoogroups; Laura Delahoussaye
>> SUBJECT: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>
>> Just checkin'
>>
>> The TTT Champ is May 21st?
>>
>> and the TT Champ is June 4th?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> jb
>>
>> _______________________________________________ OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

jo..@aracnet.com

A few years ago, there WAS a promoters meeting in which members from
OBRA
and WSBA(?) attended. The goal being to do a better job of scehduling
events.
Specifically Championship events. It was a given that there WOULD be
conflicts.
But the goal was to give Champ events first shot at weekends and NOT
have
multiple champ events on the same weekend. Dates were set and the
calendar
was setup relatively quickly based on what weekends were available.
There was
buy-in from all promoters in attendance and, as I recall, the contingent
from Washington thought that the process was a good one and took the
idea
back to try it on their calendar as well.

This lasted one (1) season before all hell returned and the schedule was
once more tossed around like lettuce in a salad spinner. That was the
last
year I promoted any event. (2011 if I recall). I simply got tired of
trying
to manage MY event, Other's dates, worrying about medical, officials,
etc in
addition to the permitting process.

Joe

On 2016-05-10 22:42, Mike Murray via OBRA wrote:
> Once again I think everybody is underestimating the difficulty of
> creating a schedule that does not have conflicts. Just look at the
> math:
>
> - Between May and August there are 35 weekend days
> - There are 10 days of OBRA championships that need to occur during
> that period.
> - There are 57 other weekend day races that people have placed on the
> schedule. Most of them are established races just as the HV crit is.
> - There are an unknown number of races that people might have put on
> but they did not wish to compete for a date with another race.
>
> Given the above it is inevitable that there will be days with more
> than one race. Actually if things are evenly distributed there will be
> 1.9 races each weekend day.
>
> If OBRA was in the business of limiting the number of races or
> eliminating any conflicts how would you propose to do that? Give
> championships precedence? Eliminate championships to free up space and
> decrease competition for other races? Prioritize races based on some
> criteria and axe the ones that have less of those criteria? How do you
> deal with the people involved in the production of the races that get
> eliminated?
>
> Currently what OBRA does is facilitate communication between the
> people who are putting on races. The schedule is published months
> ahead of time. This allows those that can and wish to change dates to
> avoid conflict with another race to do so. Many races simply cannot
> change dates. It is not infrequent that people in such a bind just
> decide to not put on races.
>
> I also have to point out that the number of people willing to put on
> OBRA championship races is not unlimited or, actually, very large. If
> these races are going to happen OBRA needs to recognize the scheduling
> limitations for those people.
>
> Mike Murray
>
> On May 10, 2016, at 21:12, Jeff Tedder via OBRA
> wrote:
>
>> I have been to promoters meetings and expressed how I feel and it
>> did no good���.it just seems to me, that the way things are allowed
>> to run creates competition within the people that promote
>> races���which in my mind is not good for racing���. If I was going
>> to put on another race or start a new race���I would never pick a
>> date that already had a race for 2 reasons���.. 1, I would not want
>> to push in someone elses date that has had an ongoing race for
>> years, and 2, I think there is way to much on the schedule now and
>> cramming races in, is not helping the attendance and any ones
>> races���.how is that good for racing in Oregon? For whatever the
>> reason, attendance at state races and others is down if I
>> recall���.we have leveled off at the HV crit the last few years, but
>> finally got it to a point where we make a few bucks for our efforts
>> after 6 or 7 years���.take 50 or 60 people out of the loop and we
>> are back to luck if we break even���..Just seems to me for all our
>> efforts, all promoters included you would want some kind of return
>> to yourself or team for all the hard work���..
>>
>> Not seeing how many races we can jam into the race schedule but
>> making less races more quality events���.The reason our race has
>> become popular is we get tons of prizes and primes from sponsors and
>> beyond to the point we are giving primes away almost every lap in
>> some races���.People love it, it���s a fun atmosphere and and we
>> have a lot of followers now that love the venue and what we do���
>> But I see many races on the schedule the past few years and then
>> cancelled���.reason??? not sure but I would guess a lot has to do
>> with jamming other races onto those days and then its just not worth
>> the effort���..So seems like that���s where OBRA has been leading
>> itself the past several years���..and attendance is dropping, so I
>> guess I put 2 and 2 together like many others that emailed me in the
>> past 24 hours and its just not good for racing���..
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>> FROM: kl_graham@comcast.net [mailto:kl_graham@comcast.net]
>> SENT: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:53 PM
>> TO: sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
>> CC: obra@list.obra.org; miker0629@yahoo.com
>> SUBJECT: RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>> Since this platform you want to have and you're not wanting to work
>> together on a solution, I wish you good luck on June 4th. This could
>> have been figured out 24 hours ago, so don't worry about calling.
>>
>> If you're at the upcoming promoters meeting, and you want to have
>> this discussion face to face, I'm in. Straight conversation for a
>> better solution.
>>
>> But I've got my 5th race to promote, a cycling team to run, and to
>> be an OBRA Official when needed. Other folks work hard as well, but
>> I also feel the calendar needs work. It's up to us though to work
>> together to find solutions in the interim.
>>
>> Good luck in all your endeavor.
>>
>> Kenny Graham
>>
>> Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>> From: sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
>> To: ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
>> Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net,miker0629@yahoo.com,obra@list.obra.org
>> Sent: 2016-05-10 5:29:10 PM
>> Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>
>> That makes no sense to me and others���so you allow people to work
>> their asses off building a race over years to the point now that
>> it���s the favorite crit of the year for most people and then allow
>> others to just take that date���.I don���t think so���.I have put
>> way way way to much personal time and our teams help over the years
>> to build this race into a great day to have that happen���and compae
>> attendance at said races you want to allow to have priority���.not
>> so great���.
>>
>> FROM: Ron [mailto:ronfrerichs@hotmail.com]
>> SENT: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:24 PM
>> TO: Jeff Tedder
>> CC: Michael Richardson; kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
>> SUBJECT: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>
>> I completely agree with your first statement.
>>
>> I suggest we allow Championship Race promoters to have first crack
>> at the schedule, then let other promoters work around them.
>>
>> Ron
>>
>> On May 10, 2016, at 4:37 PM, Jeff Tedder via OBRA
>> wrote:
>>
>> Ya it is a worry, a state championship race should never be on the
>> same day as any race���.and we have been putting this race on for
>> years, finally get to the point where we get good attendance and
>> then this���..all this does is create a competition between people
>> that pit races on���������.Plus we have many many people that TT on
>> our team and we need them to help put our race on���..so then what ?
>> they have to skip a state championship because people cannot figure
>> out that this is bad for racing,,,,stupid���.
>>
>> FROM: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] ON BEHALF OF Michael
>> Richardson via OBRA
>> SENT: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 1:26 PM
>> TO: kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
>> SUBJECT: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>
>> No worries.
>>
>> Fast Twitch = crit
>>
>> Slow Twitch = TT
>>
>> Mike (all slow all the time myself)
>>
>> On May 10, 2016, at 5:54 AM, via OBRA wrote:
>>
>> We put this where there was space available and where time allowed.
>> We have permits and registration is open.
>>
>> No trying to under cut yall - but if we go any later in the calendar
>> year, we run into issues with the local farmers.
>>
>> I tried to email you last night about this, but your email rejected
>> back to me.
>>
>> If you would like to talk man to man about this, please call me
>> directly at 5419059698.
>>
>> Kenny
>>
>> Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>> From: obra@list.obra.org
>> To:
>>
> bike-cyclisme@yahoogroups.com,jfbenenate@yahoo.com,lauradela67@icloud.com,obra@list.obra.org,sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
>> Cc:
>> Sent: 2016-05-09 11:57:11 PM
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>
>> Ya and the Hammer Velo Crit is on June 4th, first and biggest crit
>> of the year���Why they piled a satate championship race on top of
>> our long standing race is beyond me���
>>
>> But ya���ll know its always a good one, with toms of prizes and
>> primes..and always sunny : )
>>
>> See ya, Jeff
>>
>> Hammer Velo
>>
>> FROM: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] ON BEHALF OF John
>> Benenate via OBRA
>> SENT: Monday, May 9, 2016 4:16 PM
>> TO: OBRA List; yahoogroups; Laura Delahoussaye
>> SUBJECT: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>
>> Just checkin'
>>
>> The TTT Champ is May 21st?
>>
>> and the TT Champ is June 4th?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> jb
>>
>> _______________________________________________ OBRA mailing list
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>>
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Mike Rosenfeld

You don't ride bikes for fun do you Marek?

Sent from my non windows phone

> On May 11, 2016, at 12:25 PM, Marek Litinsky via OBRA wrote:
>
> I thought this thread couldn't get any funnier after the email containing three different fonts (most likely to invoke three levels of agitated shrieking) but then I realized it's about State Championship TT race where ridiculously large number of state "championship" medals will be awarded to winners of fields ranging anywhere from 1 to 4 people in most cases. Totally serious issue. Almost as important as piss in the bush thread
>
>> On May 11, 2016, at 11:09 AM, John Wilger via OBRA wrote:
>>
>> But... But... This could be the new pissing in the bushes thread we've all been waiting for! :->
>>
>>> On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 10:34 AM, Steven Beardsley via OBRA wrote:
>>> I have a suggestion for everyone.
>>>
>>> The OBRA Admin Rules (http://www.obra.org/pdfs/2016_admin_rules.pdf) set out the rules for events and their approval, requirements, conflict resolution, etc. These rules can be modified by the Board of Directors or by the vote of the OBRA club representatives. I highly suggest that the clubs propose the rule changes that they would like to see made and then send representatives to the annual meeting to vote on those changes. This is the system that is in place for dealing with these issues. Sending silly emails to the OBRA chat will not change the rules.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 9:45 AM, Mat Braun via OBRA wrote:
>>>> According to OBRA.org there are several people who are OBRA, even a few paid staff positions?
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 9:13 AM, Mike Murray wrote:
>>>>> Who is this OBRA that you want to take over the races and put them on? OBRA is just the membership of OBRA. That is who is putting on these races currently. There is no group of helpful elves waiting in the wings to put on races. OBRA championship races are often put on the schedule later as it is a challenge to find people willing to put them on.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Mat Braun [mailto:matbraun@gmail.com]
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 08:38
>>>>> To: Mike Murray
>>>>> Cc: Jeff Tedder; obra@list.obra.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I have to be honest it doesn't seem like an impossible task to organize the calendar such that events work better together. It certainly doesn't seem fair to put it on Jeff to manage this task. If state championships are so important why are they typically left to the last minute, some years even in danger of not happening. Has OBRA ever taken over these events and promoted them?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Good luck to both Jeff and Kenny, it does seem that OBRA should step in and if nothing else help facilitate their dialogue.
>>>>>
>>>>> -Mat
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 8:00 AM, Mike Murray via OBRA wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> So Jeff, given that there are nearly twice as many weekend races on the schedule as there are days May through August, which half of the races would you have OBRA say no to? How would that determination be made? Please be specific. We know you want to cancel the race held the same day as your race. Please tell us what other races you would have OBRA cancel to reach your desired only one race per day schedule.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I also have to point out that there is a logical flaw in complaining about poor attendance at OBRA championship races while simultaneously complaining about the effect on attendance at your race.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike Murray
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On May 11, 2016, at 07:17, Jeff Tedder wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Well to start, I would just say NO to adding races that pile on top of other races….you either choose a date that works out in your area to not conflict with other races or you just don’t put it on….
>>>>>
>>>>> Again, this just creates issues every year, there is races that have been going for years and years on the same dates, weekends etc….Why would a promoter even want to put on a race on the same day as these races anyway?? I would not do it…If I was starting a new race or doing another race I just would not hone in on another day that has a race in my area to conflict with it…But that me I guess….Again this goes back to OBRA just saying no when this comes up….the schedule should come out with all the races that have been using the same days year after year…then people wanting to change their day or add a new race should have to do that with understanding what races are going on and depending on where you are in the state and if it could overlap other races and the people that attend these races....I mean it’s almost to the point where we should just put out days for Bid and the highest bidder gets those days… Again as I said yesterday, More is not always Better, Quality races that people look forward to each year is more important to me and getting the majority of racers there to race, not having them have to choose every weekend…..On the state race issue, looking at the attendance at many state races in the past several years…I would say, why bother in some cases….the effort that goes into putting on a race, and seeing the amount of people showing up at some state races, it just seems to me, 1… hard to call it state championship in the first place, a lot of times it’s the city its in and becomes a city championship more than anything….State Championships should be a huge race for everyone every year….But again, there is so much racing that people don’t really seem to care by the attendance record, especially when its away from the Portland area…..So we can go back and forth on this forever, everyone has their thoughts, but again…why choose a day that already has an established race, your race will suffer, and it also takes away from a race that has been on-going for years, not just our race, this happens a lot in other races….why can’t OBRA just say no? moderate what goes on in the first place, then juggling days with other promoters is not an issue…..just my thoughts….
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 10:43 PM
>>>>> To: Jeff Tedder
>>>>> Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com; obra@list.obra.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Once again I think everybody is underestimating the difficulty of creating a schedule that does not have conflicts. Just look at the math:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> - Between May and August there are 35 weekend days
>>>>>
>>>>> - There are 10 days of OBRA championships that need to occur during that period.
>>>>>
>>>>> - There are 57 other weekend day races that people have placed on the schedule. Most of them are established races just as the HV crit is.
>>>>>
>>>>> - There are an unknown number of races that people might have put on but they did not wish to compete for a date with another race.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Given the above it is inevitable that there will be days with more than one race. Actually if things are evenly distributed there will be 1.9 races each weekend day.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If OBRA was in the business of limiting the number of races or eliminating any conflicts how would you propose to do that? Give championships precedence? Eliminate championships to free up space and decrease competition for other races? Prioritize races based on some criteria and axe the ones that have less of those criteria? How do you deal with the people involved in the production of the races that get eliminated?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Currently what OBRA does is facilitate communication between the people who are putting on races. The schedule is published months ahead of time. This allows those that can and wish to change dates to avoid conflict with another race to do so. Many races simply cannot change dates. It is not infrequent that people in such a bind just decide to not put on races.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I also have to point out that the number of people willing to put on OBRA championship races is not unlimited or, actually, very large. If these races are going to happen OBRA needs to recognize the scheduling limitations for those people.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike Murray
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On May 10, 2016, at 21:12, Jeff Tedder via OBRA wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I have been to promoters meetings and expressed how I feel and it did no good….it just seems to me, that the way things are allowed to run creates competition within the people that promote races…which in my mind is not good for racing…. If I was going to put on another race or start a new race…I would never pick a date that already had a race for 2 reasons….. 1, I would not want to push in someone elses date that has had an ongoing race for years, and 2, I think there is way to much on the schedule now and cramming races in, is not helping the attendance and any ones races….how is that good for racing in Oregon? For whatever the reason, attendance at state races and others is down if I recall….we have leveled off at the HV crit the last few years, but finally got it to a point where we make a few bucks for our efforts after 6 or 7 years….take 50 or 60 people out of the loop and we are back to luck if we break even…..Just seems to me for all our efforts, all promoters included you would want some kind of return to yourself or team for all the hard work…..
>>>>>
>>>>> Not seeing how many races we can jam into the race schedule but making less races more quality events….The reason our race has become popular is we get tons of prizes and primes from sponsors and beyond to the point we are giving primes away almost every lap in some races….People love it, it’s a fun atmosphere and and we have a lot of followers now that love the venue and what we do… But I see many races on the schedule the past few years and then cancelled….reason??? not sure but I would guess a lot has to do with jamming other races onto those days and then its just not worth the effort…..So seems like that’s where OBRA has been leading itself the past several years…..and attendance is dropping, so I guess I put 2 and 2 together like many others that emailed me in the past 24 hours and its just not good for racing…..
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>
>>>>> From: kl_graham@comcast.net [mailto:kl_graham@comcast.net]
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:53 PM
>>>>> To: sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
>>>>> Cc: obra@list.obra.org; miker0629@yahoo.com
>>>>> Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>
>>>>> Since this platform you want to have and you're not wanting to work together on a solution, I wish you good luck on June 4th. This could have been figured out 24 hours ago, so don't worry about calling.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you're at the upcoming promoters meeting, and you want to have this discussion face to face, I'm in. Straight conversation for a better solution.
>>>>>
>>>>> But I've got my 5th race to promote, a cycling team to run, and to be an OBRA Official when needed. Other folks work hard as well, but I also feel the calendar needs work. It's up to us though to work together to find solutions in the interim.
>>>>>
>>>>> Good luck in all your endeavor.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Kenny Graham
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>
>>>>> From: sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
>>>>> To: ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
>>>>> Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net,miker0629@yahoo.com,obra@list.obra.org
>>>>> Sent: 2016-05-10 5:29:10 PM
>>>>> Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>>>>
>>>>> That makes no sense to me and others…so you allow people to work their asses off building a race over years to the point now that it’s the favorite crit of the year for most people and then allow others to just take that date….I don’t think so….I have put way way way to much personal time and our teams help over the years to build this race into a great day to have that happen…and compae attendance at said races you want to allow to have priority….not so great….
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Ron [mailto:ronfrerichs@hotmail.com]
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:24 PM
>>>>> To: Jeff Tedder
>>>>> Cc: Michael Richardson; kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I completely agree with your first statement.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I suggest we allow Championship Race promoters to have first crack at the schedule, then let other promoters work around them.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ron
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On May 10, 2016, at 4:37 PM, Jeff Tedder via OBRA wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Ya it is a worry, a state championship race should never be on the same day as any race….and we have been putting this race on for years, finally get to the point where we get good attendance and then this…..all this does is create a competition between people that pit races on……….Plus we have many many people that TT on our team and we need them to help put our race on…..so then what ? they have to skip a state championship because people cannot figure out that this is bad for racing,,,,stupid….
>>>>>
>>>>> From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Michael Richardson via OBRA
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 1:26 PM
>>>>> To: kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No worries.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Fast Twitch = crit
>>>>>
>>>>> Slow Twitch = TT
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike (all slow all the time myself)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On May 10, 2016, at 5:54 AM, via OBRA wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> We put this where there was space available and where time allowed. We have permits and registration is open.
>>>>>
>>>>> No trying to under cut yall - but if we go any later in the calendar year, we run into issues with the local farmers.
>>>>>
>>>>> I tried to email you last night about this, but your email rejected back to me.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you would like to talk man to man about this, please call me directly at 5419059698.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kenny
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>
>>>>> From: obra@list.obra.org
>>>>> To: bike-cyclisme@yahoogroups.com,jfbenenate@yahoo.com,lauradela67@icloud.com,obra@list.obra.org,sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
>>>>> Cc:
>>>>> Sent: 2016-05-09 11:57:11 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ya and the Hammer Velo Crit is on June 4th, first and biggest crit of the year…Why they piled a satate championship race on top of our long standing race is beyond me…
>>>>>
>>>>> But ya’ll know its always a good one, with toms of prizes and primes..and always sunny : )
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> See ya, Jeff
>>>>>
>>>>> Hammer Velo
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of John Benenate via OBRA
>>>>> Sent: Monday, May 9, 2016 4:16 PM
>>>>> To: OBRA List; yahoogroups; Laura Delahoussaye
>>>>> Subject: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Just checkin'
>>>>>
>>>>> The TTT Champ is May 21st?
>>>>>
>>>>> and the TT Champ is June 4th?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> jb
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________ OBRA mailing list obra@list.obra.org http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> OBRA mailing list
>>>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> OBRA mailing list
>>>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> OBRA mailing list
>>>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> OBRA mailing list
>>>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> OBRA mailing list
>>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> John Wilger | +1 (971) 678-0999 | http://johnwilger.com
>> _______________________________________________
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Rick Johnson

OMG - that makes sense!

Rick Johnson

Bend, Oregon

Every revolutionary idea seems to evoke three stages of reaction...

One, it's completely impossible. 

Two, it's possible, but it's not worth doing. 

Three, I said it was a good idea all along.

Arthur C. Clarke

I would propose a rule change that restricts the CX season to October - January and designates September as "State Championship Month." Run all the Road and Track State Championship races in September. This relieves some scheduling pressure during the current regular season and perhaps would encourage more CX racers to participate in road races... just my two cents :) 

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Robert

The idea of moving all the state champs to September and having cross start in October is the best suggestion .

On May 11, 2016 12:19:52 PM PDT, via OBRA wrote:
>Maybe you don't allow more than one road event, track event, or off
>road event on the same days. Many different approaches could be
>explored and would minimize adverse impacts. I received 3 supportive
>replies to my last email on this topic not addressed to the whole list.
>Obviously, there is some support for exploring changes in this area. I
>don't think we should dismiss it out of hand.
>
>Michael Rosenberg
>
>
>> On May 11, 2016, at 9:40 AM, Mike Murray via OBRA
> wrote:
>>
>> So … below are the scheduled weekend race days between May and
>August. Which ones get cut under your plan? Please also explain what
>OBRA will cut due to the decrease in revenue from having fewer races.
>>
>> Alpenrose Heartbreaker
>> Alpenrose Six Day
>> Alpenrose Velodrome Challenge
>> Alpenrose Velodrome Challenge
>> Alsea Falls Switchback
>> Baker City Cycling Classic
>> Baker City Cycling Classic
>> Baker City Gran Fondo
>> Barrel to Bay Gravel/Road Fondo
>> Bear Springs Trap
>> Blue Ribbon Track Omnium
>> BriHOP Interstellar Omnium: Saturday
>> BriHOP Interstellar Omnium: Sunday
>> Cascade Cream Puff
>> Chainbreaker
>> Coast Hills Classic MTB Race
>> Cooper Spur Short Track Weekend
>> Cooper Spur Short Track Weekend
>> Cooper Spur Spring XC
>> Desert Orthopedics Bend Don't Brake Road Race
>> FAT 55 Oakridge Mountain Bike Marathon
>> Franz Bakery Criterium
>> Hammer Velo Crit
>> High Cascades 100
>> High Desert Omnium: Criterium
>> High Desert Omnium: Road Race
>> High Desert Omnium: Time Trial
>> Holtey Law Track Omnium
>> Humbug Hurry Up
>> Lewis & Clark 12/24 Hour Time Trial
>> Mary's Peak Hill Climb TT
>> MBSEF Thrilla Cyclocross Series
>> MISSION: GranDuro
>> MISSION: RunDuro
>> Montinore Road Race
>> Mt. Ashland Hill Climb Road Vs. Mt.
>> Mt. Ashland Uphill Time Trial
>> Mt. Man Challenge: Dog River Trail Super D
>> Mt. Man Challenge: Mt Hood Skibowl
>> OBRA Elite Track Championship
>> OBRA Elite Track Championship
>> OBRA Elite Track Championship
>> OBRA Elite Track Championship
>> OBRA Masters Track Championship
>> OBRA Masters Track Championship
>> OBRA RR Champs
>> OBRA TT
>> OBRA TTT
>> OBRA Uphill Time Trial Championship
>> Ochoco Gravel Roubaix
>> Olympia Beer Crit
>> Oregon Gran Fondo
>> OUCH: Larch Mt Uphill Time Trial
>> PDW Omnium
>> PDX DEVO TRACK OMNIUM AND JUNIOR STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
>> Pickett's Charge
>> Return on the Jedi
>> Sisters Stampede
>> Six Hours of Mount Hood
>> Slabtown Criterium
>> Spring Thaw Mt. Bike Festival
>> Spring Thaw Mt. Bike Festival
>> The Galena Grinder 4point0
>> Tour de St. Honore Gran Fondo
>> Vancouver Criterium
>> Washougal XC at the MX Park Race for the Future NICA Student League
>Fundraiser
>> Willamette Gran Fondo
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> From: Jeff Tedder [mailto:sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 08:30
>> To: 'Mike Murray'
>> Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com;
>obra@list.obra.org
>> Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>
>> Well at this point, its like the homeless garbage camps in
>Portland….its kind of out of control and been let go to long and to the
>point that how do you fix it??
>> That’s a good question…..these races that change days or are new
>races should not be allowed to be piled on other race days……Not just
>our race its many I am sure without looking at the schedule…If you
>choose to change your day then you have to fit in the schedule or not
>put it on….thats up to you…..if you have a date that you have been
>using and then you change that day, how is it fair to just say well I
>will put my race on the same day as some else that has had that day for
>years….how is this benefitting anyone in bike racing…Quality races are
>much better than splitting up obra members 2 or 3 ways sometimes….
>> So at this point I am not sure how you fix it other than saying no…if
>people want to change days or add a day, just say no…..that atleast
>will stop it at this point and then the rest could be worked on from
>there…but continuing to allow this is not helping the problem….
>> And complaining about state races has nothing to do with complaining
>about it effecting our race because they should never be put on the
>same day…. : )
>> Maybe OBRA should promote all state championships? Along with help
>and volunteers from all obra teams to make it a group effort…. And have
>the same days each year on the schedule…and not have races piled on top
>of them as well…maybe people might get interested again? who knows?
>> But if we have them, and they are called state championships then
>they should be a big deal for people and I guess us and OBRA have to
>make that happen…
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>> From: Mike Murray [mailto:mike.murray@obra.org]
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 8:01 AM
>> To: Jeff Tedder
>> Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com;
>obra@list.obra.org
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>
>> So Jeff, given that there are nearly twice as many weekend races on
>the schedule as there are days May through August, which half of the
>races would you have OBRA say no to? How would that determination be
>made? Please be specific. We know you want to cancel the race held the
>same day as your race. Please tell us what other races you would have
>OBRA cancel to reach your desired only one race per day schedule.
>>
>> I also have to point out that there is a logical flaw in complaining
>about poor attendance at OBRA championship races while simultaneously
>complaining about the effect on attendance at your race.
>>
>> Mike Murray
>>
>> On May 11, 2016, at 07:17, Jeff Tedder
> wrote:
>>
>> Well to start, I would just say NO to adding races that pile on top
>of other races….you either choose a date that works out in your area to
>not conflict with other races or you just don’t put it on….
>> Again, this just creates issues every year, there is races that have
>been going for years and years on the same dates, weekends etc….Why
>would a promoter even want to put on a race on the same day as these
>races anyway?? I would not do it…If I was starting a new race or doing
>another race I just would not hone in on another day that has a race in
>my area to conflict with it…But that me I guess….Again this goes back
>to OBRA just saying no when this comes up….the schedule should come out
>with all the races that have been using the same days year after
>year…then people wanting to change their day or add a new race should
>have to do that with understanding what races are going on and
>depending on where you are in the state and if it could overlap other
>races and the people that attend these races....I mean it’s almost to
>the point where we should just put out days for Bid and the highest
>bidder gets those days… Again as I said yesterday, More is not always
>Better, Quality races that people look forward to each year is more
>important to me and getting the majority of racers there to race, not
>having them have to choose every weekend…..On the state race issue,
>looking at the attendance at many state races in the past several
>years…I would say, why bother in some cases….the effort that goes into
>putting on a race, and seeing the amount of people showing up at some
>state races, it just seems to me, 1… hard to call it state
>championship in the first place, a lot of times it’s the city its in
>and becomes a city championship more than anything….State Championships
>should be a huge race for everyone every year….But again, there is so
>much racing that people don’t really seem to care by the attendance
>record, especially when its away from the Portland area…..So we can go
>back and forth on this forever, everyone has their thoughts, but
>again…why choose a day that already has an established race, your race
>will suffer, and it also takes away from a race that has been on-going
>for years, not just our race, this happens a lot in other races….why
>can’t OBRA just say no? moderate what goes on in the first place, then
>juggling days with other promoters is not an issue…..just my thoughts….
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>>
>> ent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 10:43 PM
>> To: Jeff Tedder
>> Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com;
>obra@list.obra.org
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>
>> Once again I think everybody is underestimating the difficulty of
>creating a schedule that does not have conflicts. Just look at the
>math:
>>
>> - Between May and August there are 35 weekend days
>> - There are 10 days of OBRA championships that need to occur during
>that period.
>> - There are 57 other weekend day races that people have placed on the
>schedule. Most of them are established races just as the HV crit is.
>> - There are an unknown number of races that people might have put on
>but they did not wish to compete for a date with another race.
>>
>> Given the above it is inevitable that there will be days with more
>than one race. Actually if things are evenly distributed there will be
>1.9 races each weekend day.
>>
>> If OBRA was in the business of limiting the number of races or
>eliminating any conflicts how would you propose to do that? Give
>championships precedence? Eliminate championships to free up space and
>decrease competition for other races? Prioritize races based on some
>criteria and axe the ones that have less of those criteria? How do you
>deal with the people involved in the production of the races that get
>eliminated?
>>
>> Currently what OBRA does is facilitate communication between the
>people who are putting on races. The schedule is published months ahead
>of time. This allows those that can and wish to change dates to avoid
>conflict with another race to do so. Many races simply cannot change
>dates. It is not infrequent that people in such a bind just decide to
>not put on races.
>>
>> I also have to point out that the number of people willing to put on
>OBRA championship races is not unlimited or, actually, very large. If
>these races are going to happen OBRA needs to recognize the scheduling
>limitations for those people.
>>
>> Mike Murray
>>
>> On May 10, 2016, at 21:12, Jeff Tedder via OBRA
>wrote:
>>
>> I have been to promoters meetings and expressed how I feel and it did
>no good….it just seems to me, that the way things are allowed to run
>creates competition within the people that promote races…which in my
>mind is not good for racing…. If I was going to put on another race or
>start a new race…I would never pick a date that already had a race for
>2 reasons….. 1, I would not want to push in someone elses date that has
>had an ongoing race for years, and 2, I think there is way to much on
>the schedule now and cramming races in, is not helping the attendance
>and any ones races….how is that good for racing in Oregon? For
>whatever the reason, attendance at state races and others is down if I
>recall….we have leveled off at the HV crit the last few years, but
>finally got it to a point where we make a few bucks for our efforts
>after 6 or 7 years….take 50 or 60 people out of the loop and we are
>back to luck if we break even…..Just seems to me for all our efforts,
>all promoters included you would want some kind of return to yourself
>or team for all the hard work…..
>> Not seeing how many races we can jam into the race schedule but
>making less races more quality events….The reason our race has become
>popular is we get tons of prizes and primes from sponsors and beyond to
>the point we are giving primes away almost every lap in some
>races….People love it, it’s a fun atmosphere and and we have a lot of
>followers now that love the venue and what we do… But I see many races
>on the schedule the past few years and then cancelled….reason??? not
>sure but I would guess a lot has to do with jamming other races onto
>those days and then its just not worth the effort…..So seems like
>that’s where OBRA has been leading itself the past several years…..and
>attendance is dropping, so I guess I put 2 and 2 together like many
>others that emailed me in the past 24 hours and its just not good for
>racing…..
>>
>> Jeff
>> From: kl_graham@comcast.net [mailto:kl_graham@comcast.net]
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:53 PM
>> To: sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
>> Cc: obra@list.obra.org; miker0629@yahoo.com
>> Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>> Since this platform you want to have and you're not wanting to work
>together on a solution, I wish you good luck on June 4th. This could
>have been figured out 24 hours ago, so don't worry about calling.
>>
>> If you're at the upcoming promoters meeting, and you want to have
>this discussion face to face, I'm in. Straight conversation for a
>better solution.
>>
>> But I've got my 5th race to promote, a cycling team to run, and to be
>an OBRA Official when needed. Other folks work hard as well, but I also
>feel the calendar needs work. It's up to us though to work together to
>find solutions in the interim.
>>
>> Good luck in all your endeavor.
>>
>>
>>
>> Kenny Graham
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>> From: sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
>> To: ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
>> Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net,miker0629@yahoo.com,obra@list.obra.org
>> Sent: 2016-05-10 5:29:10 PM
>> Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>
>> That makes no sense to me and others…so you allow people to work
>their asses off building a race over years to the point now that it’s
>the favorite crit of the year for most people and then allow others to
>just take that date….I don’t think so….I have put way way way to much
>personal time and our teams help over the years to build this race into
>a great day to have that happen…and compae attendance at said races you
>want to allow to have priority….not so great….
>>
>> From: Ron [mailto:ronfrerichs@hotmail.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:24 PM
>> To: Jeff Tedder
>> Cc: Michael Richardson; kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>
>> I completely agree with your first statement.
>>
>> I suggest we allow Championship Race promoters to have first crack at
>the schedule, then let other promoters work around them.
>>
>> Ron
>>
>> On May 10, 2016, at 4:37 PM, Jeff Tedder via OBRA
> wrote:
>>
>> Ya it is a worry, a state championship race should never be on the
>same day as any race….and we have been putting this race on for years,
>finally get to the point where we get good attendance and then
>this…..all this does is create a competition between people that pit
>races on……….Plus we have many many people that TT on our team and we
>need them to help put our race on…..so then what ? they have to skip a
>state championship because people cannot figure out that this is bad
>for racing,,,,stupid….
>> From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Michael
>Richardson via OBRA
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 1:26 PM
>> To: kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>
>> No worries.
>>
>> Fast Twitch = crit
>> Slow Twitch = TT
>>
>> Mike (all slow all the time myself)
>>
>> On May 10, 2016, at 5:54 AM, via OBRA wrote:
>>
>> We put this where there was space available and where time allowed.
>We have permits and registration is open.
>>
>> No trying to under cut yall - but if we go any later in the calendar
>year, we run into issues with the local farmers.
>>
>> I tried to email you last night about this, but your email rejected
>back to me.
>>
>> If you would like to talk man to man about this, please call me
>directly at 5419059698.
>>
>> Kenny
>>
>> Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>> From: obra@list.obra.org
>> To:
>bike-cyclisme@yahoogroups.com,jfbenenate@yahoo.com,lauradela67@icloud.com,obra@list.obra.org,sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
>> Cc:
>> Sent: 2016-05-09 11:57:11 PM
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>
>>
>> Ya and the Hammer Velo Crit is on June 4th, first and biggest crit
>of the year…Why they piled a satate championship race on top of our
>long standing race is beyond me…
>> But ya’ll know its always a good one, with toms of prizes and
>primes..and always sunny : )
>>
>> See ya, Jeff
>> Hammer Velo
>>
>> From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of John
>Benenate via OBRA
>> Sent: Monday, May 9, 2016 4:16 PM
>> To: OBRA List; yahoogroups; Laura Delahoussaye
>> Subject: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>
>> Just checkin'
>> The TTT Champ is May 21st?
>> and the TT Champ is June 4th?
>> Thanks,
>> jb
>> _______________________________________________ OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

--
>^•.•^<

Robert

I will support that! Sounds like a great idea.

On May 11, 2016 11:48:52 AM PDT, Adam Angert via OBRA wrote:
>I would propose a rule change that restricts the CX season to October -
>January and designates September as "State Championship Month." Run all
>the Road and Track State Championship races in September. This relieves
>some scheduling pressure during the current regular season and perhaps
>would encourage more CX racers to participate in road races... just my
>two cents :)
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

--
>^•.•^<

Marek Litinsky

I thought this thread couldn't get any funnier after the email containing three different fonts (most likely to invoke three levels of agitated shrieking) but then I realized it's about State Championship TT race where ridiculously large number of state "championship" medals will be awarded to winners of fields ranging anywhere from 1 to 4 people in most cases. Totally serious issue. Almost as important as piss in the bush thread

> On May 11, 2016, at 11:09 AM, John Wilger via OBRA wrote:
>
> But... But... This could be the new pissing in the bushes thread we've all been waiting for! :->
>
>> On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 10:34 AM, Steven Beardsley via OBRA wrote:
>> I have a suggestion for everyone.
>>
>> The OBRA Admin Rules (http://www.obra.org/pdfs/2016_admin_rules.pdf) set out the rules for events and their approval, requirements, conflict resolution, etc. These rules can be modified by the Board of Directors or by the vote of the OBRA club representatives. I highly suggest that the clubs propose the rule changes that they would like to see made and then send representatives to the annual meeting to vote on those changes. This is the system that is in place for dealing with these issues. Sending silly emails to the OBRA chat will not change the rules.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 9:45 AM, Mat Braun via OBRA wrote:
>>> According to OBRA.org there are several people who are OBRA, even a few paid staff positions?
>>>
>>>> On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 9:13 AM, Mike Murray wrote:
>>>> Who is this OBRA that you want to take over the races and put them on? OBRA is just the membership of OBRA. That is who is putting on these races currently. There is no group of helpful elves waiting in the wings to put on races. OBRA championship races are often put on the schedule later as it is a challenge to find people willing to put them on.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Mat Braun [mailto:matbraun@gmail.com]
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 08:38
>>>> To: Mike Murray
>>>> Cc: Jeff Tedder; obra@list.obra.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mike,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have to be honest it doesn't seem like an impossible task to organize the calendar such that events work better together. It certainly doesn't seem fair to put it on Jeff to manage this task. If state championships are so important why are they typically left to the last minute, some years even in danger of not happening. Has OBRA ever taken over these events and promoted them?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Good luck to both Jeff and Kenny, it does seem that OBRA should step in and if nothing else help facilitate their dialogue.
>>>>
>>>> -Mat
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 8:00 AM, Mike Murray via OBRA wrote:
>>>>
>>>> So Jeff, given that there are nearly twice as many weekend races on the schedule as there are days May through August, which half of the races would you have OBRA say no to? How would that determination be made? Please be specific. We know you want to cancel the race held the same day as your race. Please tell us what other races you would have OBRA cancel to reach your desired only one race per day schedule.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I also have to point out that there is a logical flaw in complaining about poor attendance at OBRA championship races while simultaneously complaining about the effect on attendance at your race.
>>>>
>>>> Mike Murray
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 11, 2016, at 07:17, Jeff Tedder wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Well to start, I would just say NO to adding races that pile on top of other races….you either choose a date that works out in your area to not conflict with other races or you just don’t put it on….
>>>>
>>>> Again, this just creates issues every year, there is races that have been going for years and years on the same dates, weekends etc….Why would a promoter even want to put on a race on the same day as these races anyway?? I would not do it…If I was starting a new race or doing another race I just would not hone in on another day that has a race in my area to conflict with it…But that me I guess….Again this goes back to OBRA just saying no when this comes up….the schedule should come out with all the races that have been using the same days year after year…then people wanting to change their day or add a new race should have to do that with understanding what races are going on and depending on where you are in the state and if it could overlap other races and the people that attend these races....I mean it’s almost to the point where we should just put out days for Bid and the highest bidder gets those days… Again as I said yesterday, More is not always Better, Quality races that people look forward to each year is more important to me and getting the majority of racers there to race, not having them have to choose every weekend…..On the state race issue, looking at the attendance at many state races in the past several years…I would say, why bother in some cases….the effort that goes into putting on a race, and seeing the amount of people showing up at some state races, it just seems to me, 1… hard to call it state championship in the first place, a lot of times it’s the city its in and becomes a city championship more than anything….State Championships should be a huge race for everyone every year….But again, there is so much racing that people don’t really seem to care by the attendance record, especially when its away from the Portland area…..So we can go back and forth on this forever, everyone has their thoughts, but again…why choose a day that already has an established race, your race will suffer, and it also takes away from a race that has been on-going for years, not just our race, this happens a lot in other races….why can’t OBRA just say no? moderate what goes on in the first place, then juggling days with other promoters is not an issue…..just my thoughts….
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jeff
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 10:43 PM
>>>> To: Jeff Tedder
>>>> Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com; obra@list.obra.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Once again I think everybody is underestimating the difficulty of creating a schedule that does not have conflicts. Just look at the math:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> - Between May and August there are 35 weekend days
>>>>
>>>> - There are 10 days of OBRA championships that need to occur during that period.
>>>>
>>>> - There are 57 other weekend day races that people have placed on the schedule. Most of them are established races just as the HV crit is.
>>>>
>>>> - There are an unknown number of races that people might have put on but they did not wish to compete for a date with another race.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Given the above it is inevitable that there will be days with more than one race. Actually if things are evenly distributed there will be 1.9 races each weekend day.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If OBRA was in the business of limiting the number of races or eliminating any conflicts how would you propose to do that? Give championships precedence? Eliminate championships to free up space and decrease competition for other races? Prioritize races based on some criteria and axe the ones that have less of those criteria? How do you deal with the people involved in the production of the races that get eliminated?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Currently what OBRA does is facilitate communication between the people who are putting on races. The schedule is published months ahead of time. This allows those that can and wish to change dates to avoid conflict with another race to do so. Many races simply cannot change dates. It is not infrequent that people in such a bind just decide to not put on races.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I also have to point out that the number of people willing to put on OBRA championship races is not unlimited or, actually, very large. If these races are going to happen OBRA needs to recognize the scheduling limitations for those people.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mike Murray
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 10, 2016, at 21:12, Jeff Tedder via OBRA wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I have been to promoters meetings and expressed how I feel and it did no good….it just seems to me, that the way things are allowed to run creates competition within the people that promote races…which in my mind is not good for racing…. If I was going to put on another race or start a new race…I would never pick a date that already had a race for 2 reasons….. 1, I would not want to push in someone elses date that has had an ongoing race for years, and 2, I think there is way to much on the schedule now and cramming races in, is not helping the attendance and any ones races….how is that good for racing in Oregon? For whatever the reason, attendance at state races and others is down if I recall….we have leveled off at the HV crit the last few years, but finally got it to a point where we make a few bucks for our efforts after 6 or 7 years….take 50 or 60 people out of the loop and we are back to luck if we break even…..Just seems to me for all our efforts, all promoters included you would want some kind of return to yourself or team for all the hard work…..
>>>>
>>>> Not seeing how many races we can jam into the race schedule but making less races more quality events….The reason our race has become popular is we get tons of prizes and primes from sponsors and beyond to the point we are giving primes away almost every lap in some races….People love it, it’s a fun atmosphere and and we have a lot of followers now that love the venue and what we do… But I see many races on the schedule the past few years and then cancelled….reason??? not sure but I would guess a lot has to do with jamming other races onto those days and then its just not worth the effort…..So seems like that’s where OBRA has been leading itself the past several years…..and attendance is dropping, so I guess I put 2 and 2 together like many others that emailed me in the past 24 hours and its just not good for racing…..
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jeff
>>>>
>>>> From: kl_graham@comcast.net [mailto:kl_graham@comcast.net]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:53 PM
>>>> To: sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
>>>> Cc: obra@list.obra.org; miker0629@yahoo.com
>>>> Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jeff
>>>>
>>>> Since this platform you want to have and you're not wanting to work together on a solution, I wish you good luck on June 4th. This could have been figured out 24 hours ago, so don't worry about calling.
>>>>
>>>> If you're at the upcoming promoters meeting, and you want to have this discussion face to face, I'm in. Straight conversation for a better solution.
>>>>
>>>> But I've got my 5th race to promote, a cycling team to run, and to be an OBRA Official when needed. Other folks work hard as well, but I also feel the calendar needs work. It's up to us though to work together to find solutions in the interim.
>>>>
>>>> Good luck in all your endeavor.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Kenny Graham
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>
>>>> From: sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
>>>> To: ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
>>>> Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net,miker0629@yahoo.com,obra@list.obra.org
>>>> Sent: 2016-05-10 5:29:10 PM
>>>> Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>>>
>>>> That makes no sense to me and others…so you allow people to work their asses off building a race over years to the point now that it’s the favorite crit of the year for most people and then allow others to just take that date….I don’t think so….I have put way way way to much personal time and our teams help over the years to build this race into a great day to have that happen…and compae attendance at said races you want to allow to have priority….not so great….
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Ron [mailto:ronfrerichs@hotmail.com]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:24 PM
>>>> To: Jeff Tedder
>>>> Cc: Michael Richardson; kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I completely agree with your first statement.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I suggest we allow Championship Race promoters to have first crack at the schedule, then let other promoters work around them.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ron
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 10, 2016, at 4:37 PM, Jeff Tedder via OBRA wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Ya it is a worry, a state championship race should never be on the same day as any race….and we have been putting this race on for years, finally get to the point where we get good attendance and then this…..all this does is create a competition between people that pit races on……….Plus we have many many people that TT on our team and we need them to help put our race on…..so then what ? they have to skip a state championship because people cannot figure out that this is bad for racing,,,,stupid….
>>>>
>>>> From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Michael Richardson via OBRA
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 1:26 PM
>>>> To: kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No worries.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Fast Twitch = crit
>>>>
>>>> Slow Twitch = TT
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mike (all slow all the time myself)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 10, 2016, at 5:54 AM, via OBRA wrote:
>>>>
>>>> We put this where there was space available and where time allowed. We have permits and registration is open.
>>>>
>>>> No trying to under cut yall - but if we go any later in the calendar year, we run into issues with the local farmers.
>>>>
>>>> I tried to email you last night about this, but your email rejected back to me.
>>>>
>>>> If you would like to talk man to man about this, please call me directly at 5419059698.
>>>>
>>>> Kenny
>>>>
>>>> Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>
>>>> From: obra@list.obra.org
>>>> To: bike-cyclisme@yahoogroups.com,jfbenenate@yahoo.com,lauradela67@icloud.com,obra@list.obra.org,sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
>>>> Cc:
>>>> Sent: 2016-05-09 11:57:11 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ya and the Hammer Velo Crit is on June 4th, first and biggest crit of the year…Why they piled a satate championship race on top of our long standing race is beyond me…
>>>>
>>>> But ya’ll know its always a good one, with toms of prizes and primes..and always sunny : )
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> See ya, Jeff
>>>>
>>>> Hammer Velo
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of John Benenate via OBRA
>>>> Sent: Monday, May 9, 2016 4:16 PM
>>>> To: OBRA List; yahoogroups; Laura Delahoussaye
>>>> Subject: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Just checkin'
>>>>
>>>> The TTT Champ is May 21st?
>>>>
>>>> and the TT Champ is June 4th?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> jb
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________ OBRA mailing list obra@list.obra.org http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> OBRA mailing list
>>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> OBRA mailing list
>>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> OBRA mailing list
>>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> OBRA mailing list
>>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> --
> John Wilger | +1 (971) 678-0999 | http://johnwilger.com
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
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micros83..@aol.com

Maybe you don't allow more than one road event, track event, or off road event on the same days. Many different approaches could be explored and would minimize adverse impacts. I received 3 supportive replies to my last email on this topic not addressed to the whole list. Obviously, there is some support for exploring changes in this area. I don't think we should dismiss it out of hand.

Michael Rosenberg

> On May 11, 2016, at 9:40 AM, Mike Murray via OBRA wrote:
>
> So … below are the scheduled weekend race days between May and August. Which ones get cut under your plan? Please also explain what OBRA will cut due to the decrease in revenue from having fewer races.
>
> Alpenrose Heartbreaker
> Alpenrose Six Day
> Alpenrose Velodrome Challenge
> Alpenrose Velodrome Challenge
> Alsea Falls Switchback
> Baker City Cycling Classic
> Baker City Cycling Classic
> Baker City Gran Fondo
> Barrel to Bay Gravel/Road Fondo
> Bear Springs Trap
> Blue Ribbon Track Omnium
> BriHOP Interstellar Omnium: Saturday
> BriHOP Interstellar Omnium: Sunday
> Cascade Cream Puff
> Chainbreaker
> Coast Hills Classic MTB Race
> Cooper Spur Short Track Weekend
> Cooper Spur Short Track Weekend
> Cooper Spur Spring XC
> Desert Orthopedics Bend Don't Brake Road Race
> FAT 55 Oakridge Mountain Bike Marathon
> Franz Bakery Criterium
> Hammer Velo Crit
> High Cascades 100
> High Desert Omnium: Criterium
> High Desert Omnium: Road Race
> High Desert Omnium: Time Trial
> Holtey Law Track Omnium
> Humbug Hurry Up
> Lewis & Clark 12/24 Hour Time Trial
> Mary's Peak Hill Climb TT
> MBSEF Thrilla Cyclocross Series
> MISSION: GranDuro
> MISSION: RunDuro
> Montinore Road Race
> Mt. Ashland Hill Climb Road Vs. Mt.
> Mt. Ashland Uphill Time Trial
> Mt. Man Challenge: Dog River Trail Super D
> Mt. Man Challenge: Mt Hood Skibowl
> OBRA Elite Track Championship
> OBRA Elite Track Championship
> OBRA Elite Track Championship
> OBRA Elite Track Championship
> OBRA Masters Track Championship
> OBRA Masters Track Championship
> OBRA RR Champs
> OBRA TT
> OBRA TTT
> OBRA Uphill Time Trial Championship
> Ochoco Gravel Roubaix
> Olympia Beer Crit
> Oregon Gran Fondo
> OUCH: Larch Mt Uphill Time Trial
> PDW Omnium
> PDX DEVO TRACK OMNIUM AND JUNIOR STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
> Pickett's Charge
> Return on the Jedi
> Sisters Stampede
> Six Hours of Mount Hood
> Slabtown Criterium
> Spring Thaw Mt. Bike Festival
> Spring Thaw Mt. Bike Festival
> The Galena Grinder 4point0
> Tour de St. Honore Gran Fondo
> Vancouver Criterium
> Washougal XC at the MX Park Race for the Future NICA Student League Fundraiser
> Willamette Gran Fondo
>
> Mike
>
> From: Jeff Tedder [mailto:sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 08:30
> To: 'Mike Murray'
> Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com; obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>
> Well at this point, its like the homeless garbage camps in Portland….its kind of out of control and been let go to long and to the point that how do you fix it??
> That’s a good question…..these races that change days or are new races should not be allowed to be piled on other race days……Not just our race its many I am sure without looking at the schedule…If you choose to change your day then you have to fit in the schedule or not put it on….thats up to you…..if you have a date that you have been using and then you change that day, how is it fair to just say well I will put my race on the same day as some else that has had that day for years….how is this benefitting anyone in bike racing…Quality races are much better than splitting up obra members 2 or 3 ways sometimes….
> So at this point I am not sure how you fix it other than saying no…if people want to change days or add a day, just say no…..that atleast will stop it at this point and then the rest could be worked on from there…but continuing to allow this is not helping the problem….
> And complaining about state races has nothing to do with complaining about it effecting our race because they should never be put on the same day…. : )
> Maybe OBRA should promote all state championships? Along with help and volunteers from all obra teams to make it a group effort…. And have the same days each year on the schedule…and not have races piled on top of them as well…maybe people might get interested again? who knows?
> But if we have them, and they are called state championships then they should be a big deal for people and I guess us and OBRA have to make that happen…
>
> Jeff
>
> From: Mike Murray [mailto:mike.murray@obra.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 8:01 AM
> To: Jeff Tedder
> Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com; obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>
> So Jeff, given that there are nearly twice as many weekend races on the schedule as there are days May through August, which half of the races would you have OBRA say no to? How would that determination be made? Please be specific. We know you want to cancel the race held the same day as your race. Please tell us what other races you would have OBRA cancel to reach your desired only one race per day schedule.
>
> I also have to point out that there is a logical flaw in complaining about poor attendance at OBRA championship races while simultaneously complaining about the effect on attendance at your race.
>
> Mike Murray
>
> On May 11, 2016, at 07:17, Jeff Tedder wrote:
>
> Well to start, I would just say NO to adding races that pile on top of other races….you either choose a date that works out in your area to not conflict with other races or you just don’t put it on….
> Again, this just creates issues every year, there is races that have been going for years and years on the same dates, weekends etc….Why would a promoter even want to put on a race on the same day as these races anyway?? I would not do it…If I was starting a new race or doing another race I just would not hone in on another day that has a race in my area to conflict with it…But that me I guess….Again this goes back to OBRA just saying no when this comes up….the schedule should come out with all the races that have been using the same days year after year…then people wanting to change their day or add a new race should have to do that with understanding what races are going on and depending on where you are in the state and if it could overlap other races and the people that attend these races....I mean it’s almost to the point where we should just put out days for Bid and the highest bidder gets those days… Again as I said yesterday, More is not always Better, Quality races that people look forward to each year is more important to me and getting the majority of racers there to race, not having them have to choose every weekend…..On the state race issue, looking at the attendance at many state races in the past several years…I would say, why bother in some cases….the effort that goes into putting on a race, and seeing the amount of people showing up at some state races, it just seems to me, 1… hard to call it state championship in the first place, a lot of times it’s the city its in and becomes a city championship more than anything….State Championships should be a huge race for everyone every year….But again, there is so much racing that people don’t really seem to care by the attendance record, especially when its away from the Portland area…..So we can go back and forth on this forever, everyone has their thoughts, but again…why choose a day that already has an established race, your race will suffer, and it also takes away from a race that has been on-going for years, not just our race, this happens a lot in other races….why can’t OBRA just say no? moderate what goes on in the first place, then juggling days with other promoters is not an issue…..just my thoughts….
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
> ent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 10:43 PM
> To: Jeff Tedder
> Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com; obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>
> Once again I think everybody is underestimating the difficulty of creating a schedule that does not have conflicts. Just look at the math:
>
> - Between May and August there are 35 weekend days
> - There are 10 days of OBRA championships that need to occur during that period.
> - There are 57 other weekend day races that people have placed on the schedule. Most of them are established races just as the HV crit is.
> - There are an unknown number of races that people might have put on but they did not wish to compete for a date with another race.
>
> Given the above it is inevitable that there will be days with more than one race. Actually if things are evenly distributed there will be 1.9 races each weekend day.
>
> If OBRA was in the business of limiting the number of races or eliminating any conflicts how would you propose to do that? Give championships precedence? Eliminate championships to free up space and decrease competition for other races? Prioritize races based on some criteria and axe the ones that have less of those criteria? How do you deal with the people involved in the production of the races that get eliminated?
>
> Currently what OBRA does is facilitate communication between the people who are putting on races. The schedule is published months ahead of time. This allows those that can and wish to change dates to avoid conflict with another race to do so. Many races simply cannot change dates. It is not infrequent that people in such a bind just decide to not put on races.
>
> I also have to point out that the number of people willing to put on OBRA championship races is not unlimited or, actually, very large. If these races are going to happen OBRA needs to recognize the scheduling limitations for those people.
>
> Mike Murray
>
> On May 10, 2016, at 21:12, Jeff Tedder via OBRA wrote:
>
> I have been to promoters meetings and expressed how I feel and it did no good….it just seems to me, that the way things are allowed to run creates competition within the people that promote races…which in my mind is not good for racing…. If I was going to put on another race or start a new race…I would never pick a date that already had a race for 2 reasons….. 1, I would not want to push in someone elses date that has had an ongoing race for years, and 2, I think there is way to much on the schedule now and cramming races in, is not helping the attendance and any ones races….how is that good for racing in Oregon? For whatever the reason, attendance at state races and others is down if I recall….we have leveled off at the HV crit the last few years, but finally got it to a point where we make a few bucks for our efforts after 6 or 7 years….take 50 or 60 people out of the loop and we are back to luck if we break even…..Just seems to me for all our efforts, all promoters included you would want some kind of return to yourself or team for all the hard work…..
> Not seeing how many races we can jam into the race schedule but making less races more quality events….The reason our race has become popular is we get tons of prizes and primes from sponsors and beyond to the point we are giving primes away almost every lap in some races….People love it, it’s a fun atmosphere and and we have a lot of followers now that love the venue and what we do… But I see many races on the schedule the past few years and then cancelled….reason??? not sure but I would guess a lot has to do with jamming other races onto those days and then its just not worth the effort…..So seems like that’s where OBRA has been leading itself the past several years…..and attendance is dropping, so I guess I put 2 and 2 together like many others that emailed me in the past 24 hours and its just not good for racing…..
>
> Jeff
> From: kl_graham@comcast.net [mailto:kl_graham@comcast.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:53 PM
> To: sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org; miker0629@yahoo.com
> Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>
> Jeff
>
> Since this platform you want to have and you're not wanting to work together on a solution, I wish you good luck on June 4th. This could have been figured out 24 hours ago, so don't worry about calling.
>
> If you're at the upcoming promoters meeting, and you want to have this discussion face to face, I'm in. Straight conversation for a better solution.
>
> But I've got my 5th race to promote, a cycling team to run, and to be an OBRA Official when needed. Other folks work hard as well, but I also feel the calendar needs work. It's up to us though to work together to find solutions in the interim.
>
> Good luck in all your endeavor.
>
>
>
> Kenny Graham
>
>
>
> Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
> To: ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
> Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net,miker0629@yahoo.com,obra@list.obra.org
> Sent: 2016-05-10 5:29:10 PM
> Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>
> That makes no sense to me and others…so you allow people to work their asses off building a race over years to the point now that it’s the favorite crit of the year for most people and then allow others to just take that date….I don’t think so….I have put way way way to much personal time and our teams help over the years to build this race into a great day to have that happen…and compae attendance at said races you want to allow to have priority….not so great….
>
> From: Ron [mailto:ronfrerichs@hotmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:24 PM
> To: Jeff Tedder
> Cc: Michael Richardson; kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>
> I completely agree with your first statement.
>
> I suggest we allow Championship Race promoters to have first crack at the schedule, then let other promoters work around them.
>
> Ron
>
> On May 10, 2016, at 4:37 PM, Jeff Tedder via OBRA wrote:
>
> Ya it is a worry, a state championship race should never be on the same day as any race….and we have been putting this race on for years, finally get to the point where we get good attendance and then this…..all this does is create a competition between people that pit races on……….Plus we have many many people that TT on our team and we need them to help put our race on…..so then what ? they have to skip a state championship because people cannot figure out that this is bad for racing,,,,stupid….
> From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Michael Richardson via OBRA
> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 1:26 PM
> To: kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>
> No worries.
>
> Fast Twitch = crit
> Slow Twitch = TT
>
> Mike (all slow all the time myself)
>
> On May 10, 2016, at 5:54 AM, via OBRA wrote:
>
> We put this where there was space available and where time allowed. We have permits and registration is open.
>
> No trying to under cut yall - but if we go any later in the calendar year, we run into issues with the local farmers.
>
> I tried to email you last night about this, but your email rejected back to me.
>
> If you would like to talk man to man about this, please call me directly at 5419059698.
>
> Kenny
>
> Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: obra@list.obra.org
> To: bike-cyclisme@yahoogroups.com,jfbenenate@yahoo.com,lauradela67@icloud.com,obra@list.obra.org,sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
> Cc:
> Sent: 2016-05-09 11:57:11 PM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>
>
> Ya and the Hammer Velo Crit is on June 4th, first and biggest crit of the year…Why they piled a satate championship race on top of our long standing race is beyond me…
> But ya’ll know its always a good one, with toms of prizes and primes..and always sunny : )
>
> See ya, Jeff
> Hammer Velo
>
> From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of John Benenate via OBRA
> Sent: Monday, May 9, 2016 4:16 PM
> To: OBRA List; yahoogroups; Laura Delahoussaye
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>
> Just checkin'
> The TTT Champ is May 21st?
> and the TT Champ is June 4th?
> Thanks,
> jb
> _______________________________________________ OBRA mailing list obra@list.obra.org http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
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> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Adam Angert

I would propose a rule change that restricts the CX season to October - January and designates September as "State Championship Month." Run all the Road and Track State Championship races in September. This relieves some scheduling pressure during the current regular season and perhaps would encourage more CX racers to participate in road races... just my two cents :)

John Wilger

But... But... This could be the new pissing in the bushes thread we've all
been waiting for! :->

On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 10:34 AM, Steven Beardsley via OBRA <
obra@list.obra.org> wrote:

> I have a suggestion for everyone.
>
> The OBRA Admin Rules (http://www.obra.org/pdfs/2016_admin_rules.pdf) set
> out the rules for events and their approval, requirements, conflict
> resolution, etc. These rules can be modified by the Board of Directors or
> by the vote of the OBRA club representatives. I highly suggest that the
> clubs propose the rule changes that they would like to see made and then
> send representatives to the annual meeting to vote on those changes. This
> is the system that is in place for dealing with these issues. Sending silly
> emails to the OBRA chat will not change the rules.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 9:45 AM, Mat Braun via OBRA
> wrote:
>
>> According to OBRA.org there are several people who are OBRA, even a few
>> paid staff positions?
>>
>> On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 9:13 AM, Mike Murray
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Who is this OBRA that you want to take over the races and put them on?
>>> OBRA is just the membership of OBRA. That is who is putting on these races
>>> currently. There is no group of helpful elves waiting in the wings to put
>>> on races. OBRA championship races are often put on the schedule later as it
>>> is a challenge to find people willing to put them on.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Mat Braun [mailto:matbraun@gmail.com]
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 11, 2016 08:38
>>> *To:* Mike Murray
>>> *Cc:* Jeff Tedder; obra@list.obra.org
>>> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Mike,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have to be honest it doesn't seem like an impossible task to organize
>>> the calendar such that events work better together. It certainly doesn't
>>> seem fair to put it on Jeff to manage this task. If state championships
>>> are so important why are they typically left to the last minute, some years
>>> even in danger of not happening. Has OBRA ever taken over these events and
>>> promoted them?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Good luck to both Jeff and Kenny, it does seem that OBRA should step in
>>> and if nothing else help facilitate their dialogue.
>>>
>>> -Mat
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 8:00 AM, Mike Murray via OBRA <
>>> obra@list.obra.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> So Jeff, given that there are nearly twice as many weekend races on the
>>> schedule as there are days May through August, which half of the races
>>> would you have OBRA say no to? How would that determination be made? Please
>>> be specific. We know you want to cancel the race held the same day as your
>>> race. Please tell us what other races you would have OBRA cancel to reach
>>> your desired only one race per day schedule.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I also have to point out that there is a logical flaw in complaining
>>> about poor attendance at OBRA championship races while simultaneously
>>> complaining about the effect on attendance at your race.
>>>
>>> Mike Murray
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 11, 2016, at 07:17, Jeff Tedder
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Well to start, I would just say NO to adding races that pile on top of
>>> other races….you either choose a date that works out in your area to not
>>> conflict with other races or you just don’t put it on….
>>>
>>> Again, this just creates issues every year, there is races that have
>>> been going for years and years on the same dates, weekends etc….Why would a
>>> promoter even want to put on a race on the same day as these races anyway??
>>> I would not do it…If I was starting a new race or doing another race I just
>>> would not hone in on another day that has a race in my area to conflict
>>> with it…But that me I guess….Again this goes back to OBRA just saying no
>>> when this comes up….the schedule should come out with all the races that
>>> have been using the same days year after year…then people wanting to change
>>> their day or add a new race should have to do that with understanding what
>>> races are going on and depending on where you are in the state and if it
>>> could overlap other races and the people that attend these races....I mean
>>> it’s almost to the point where we should just put out days for Bid and the
>>> highest bidder gets those days… Again as I said yesterday, More is not
>>> always Better, Quality races that people look forward to each year is more
>>> important to me and getting the majority of racers there to race, not
>>> having them have to choose every weekend…..On the state race issue, looking
>>> at the attendance at many state races in the past several years…I would
>>> say, why bother in some cases….the effort that goes into putting on a race,
>>> and seeing the amount of people showing up at some state races, it just
>>> seems to me, 1… hard to call it state championship in the first place, a
>>> lot of times it’s the city its in and becomes a city championship more than
>>> anything….State Championships should be a huge race for everyone every
>>> year….But again, there is so much racing that people don’t really seem to
>>> care by the attendance record, especially when its away from the Portland
>>> area…..So we can go back and forth on this forever, everyone has their
>>> thoughts, but again…why choose a day that already has an established race,
>>> your race will suffer, and it also takes away from a race that has been
>>> on-going for years, not just our race, this happens a lot in other
>>> races….why can’t OBRA just say no? moderate what goes on in the first
>>> place, then juggling days with other promoters is not an issue…..just my
>>> thoughts….
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *ent:* Tuesday, May 10, 2016 10:43 PM
>>> *To:* Jeff Tedder
>>> *Cc:* kl_graham@comcast.net; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com; obra@list.obra.org
>>> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Once again I think everybody is underestimating the difficulty of
>>> creating a schedule that does not have conflicts. Just look at the math:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> - Between May and August there are 35 weekend days
>>>
>>> - There are 10 days of OBRA championships that need to occur during that
>>> period.
>>>
>>> - There are 57 other weekend day races that people have placed on the
>>> schedule. Most of them are established races just as the HV crit is.
>>>
>>> - There are an unknown number of races that people might have put on but
>>> they did not wish to compete for a date with another race.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Given the above it is inevitable that there will be days with more than
>>> one race. Actually if things are evenly distributed there will be 1.9 races
>>> each weekend day.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If OBRA was in the business of limiting the number of races or
>>> eliminating any conflicts how would you propose to do that? Give
>>> championships precedence? Eliminate championships to free up space and
>>> decrease competition for other races? Prioritize races based on some
>>> criteria and axe the ones that have less of those criteria? How do you deal
>>> with the people involved in the production of the races that get eliminated?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Currently what OBRA does is facilitate communication between the people
>>> who are putting on races. The schedule is published months ahead of time.
>>> This allows those that can and wish to change dates to avoid conflict with
>>> another race to do so. Many races simply cannot change dates. It is not
>>> infrequent that people in such a bind just decide to not put on races.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I also have to point out that the number of people willing to put on
>>> OBRA championship races is not unlimited or, actually, very large. If these
>>> races are going to happen OBRA needs to recognize the scheduling
>>> limitations for those people.
>>>
>>>
>>> Mike Murray
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 10, 2016, at 21:12, Jeff Tedder via OBRA
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I have been to promoters meetings and expressed how I feel and it did no
>>> good….it just seems to me, that the way things are allowed to run creates
>>> competition within the people that promote races…which in my mind is not
>>> good for racing…. If I was going to put on another race or start a new
>>> race…I would never pick a date that already had a race for 2 reasons….. 1,
>>> I would not want to push in someone elses date that has had an ongoing race
>>> for years, and 2, I think there is way to much on the schedule now and
>>> cramming races in, is not helping the attendance and any ones races….how is
>>> that good for racing in Oregon? For whatever the reason, attendance at
>>> state races and others is down if I recall….we have leveled off at the HV
>>> crit the last few years, but finally got it to a point where we make a few
>>> bucks for our efforts after 6 or 7 years….take 50 or 60 people out of the
>>> loop and we are back to luck if we break even…..Just seems to me for all
>>> our efforts, all promoters included you would want some kind of return to
>>> yourself or team for all the hard work…..
>>>
>>> Not seeing how many races we can jam into the race schedule but making
>>> less races more quality events….The reason our race has become popular is
>>> we get tons of prizes and primes from sponsors and beyond to the point we
>>> are giving primes away almost every lap in some races….People love it, it’s
>>> a fun atmosphere and and we have a lot of followers now that love the venue
>>> and what we do… But I see many races on the schedule the past few years and
>>> then cancelled….reason??? not sure but I would guess a lot has to do with
>>> jamming other races onto those days and then its just not worth the
>>> effort…..So seems like that’s where OBRA has been leading itself the past
>>> several years…..and attendance is dropping, so I guess I put 2 and 2
>>> together like many others that emailed me in the past 24 hours and its just
>>> not good for racing…..
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>>
>>> *From:* kl_graham@comcast.net [mailto:kl_graham@comcast.net
>>> ]
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:53 PM
>>> *To:* sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
>>> *Cc:* obra@list.obra.org; miker0629@yahoo.com
>>> *Subject:* RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>>
>>> Since this platform you want to have and you're not wanting to work
>>> together on a solution, I wish you good luck on June 4th. This could have
>>> been figured out 24 hours ago, so don't worry about calling.
>>>
>>> If you're at the upcoming promoters meeting, and you want to have this
>>> discussion face to face, I'm in. Straight conversation for a better
>>> solution.
>>>
>>> But I've got my 5th race to promote, a cycling team to run, and to be an
>>> OBRA Official when needed. Other folks work hard as well, but I also feel
>>> the calendar needs work. It's up to us though to work together to find
>>> solutions in the interim.
>>>
>>> Good luck in all your endeavor.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Kenny Graham
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>
>>> From: sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
>>> To: ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
>>> Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net,miker0629@yahoo.com,obra@list.obra.org
>>> Sent: 2016-05-10 5:29:10 PM
>>> Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>>
>>> That makes no sense to me and others…so you allow people to work their
>>> asses off building a race over years to the point now that it’s the
>>> favorite crit of the year for most people and then allow others to just
>>> take that date….I don’t think so….I have put way way way to much personal
>>> time and our teams help over the years to build this race into a great day
>>> to have that happen…and compae attendance at said races you want to allow
>>> to have priority….not so great….
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Ron [mailto:ronfrerichs@hotmail.com ]
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:24 PM
>>> *To:* Jeff Tedder
>>> *Cc:* Michael Richardson; kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
>>> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I completely agree with your first statement.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I suggest we allow Championship Race promoters to have first crack at
>>> the schedule, then let other promoters work around them.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ron
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 10, 2016, at 4:37 PM, Jeff Tedder via OBRA
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Ya it is a worry, a state championship race should never be on the same
>>> day as any race….and we have been putting this race on for years, finally
>>> get to the point where we get good attendance and then this…..all this does
>>> is create a competition between people that pit races on……….Plus we have
>>> many many people that TT on our team and we need them to help put our race
>>> on…..so then what ? they have to skip a state championship because people
>>> cannot figure out that this is bad for racing,,,,stupid….
>>>
>>> *From:* OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org
>>> ] *On Behalf Of *Michael Richardson via OBRA
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 10, 2016 1:26 PM
>>> *To:* kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
>>> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No worries.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Fast Twitch = crit
>>>
>>> Slow Twitch = TT
>>>
>>>
>>> Mike (all slow all the time myself)
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 10, 2016, at 5:54 AM, via OBRA wrote:
>>>
>>> We put this where there was space available and where time allowed. We
>>> have permits and registration is open.
>>>
>>> No trying to under cut yall - but if we go any later in the calendar
>>> year, we run into issues with the local farmers.
>>>
>>> I tried to email you last night about this, but your email rejected back
>>> to me.
>>>
>>> If you would like to talk man to man about this, please call me directly
>>> at 5419059698.
>>>
>>> Kenny
>>>
>>> Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>
>>> From: obra@list.obra.org
>>> To: bike-cyclisme@yahoogroups.com,jfbenenate@yahoo.com,
>>> lauradela67@icloud.com,obra@list.obra.org,sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
>>> Cc:
>>> Sent: 2016-05-09 11:57:11 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ya and the Hammer Velo Crit is on June 4th, first and biggest crit of
>>> the year…Why they piled a satate championship race on top of our long
>>> standing race is beyond me…
>>>
>>> But ya’ll know its always a good one, with toms of prizes and
>>> primes..and always sunny : )
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> See ya, Jeff
>>>
>>> Hammer Velo
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org
>>> ] *On Behalf Of *John Benenate via OBRA
>>> *Sent:* Monday, May 9, 2016 4:16 PM
>>> *To:* OBRA List; yahoogroups; Laura Delahoussaye
>>> *Subject:* [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Just checkin'
>>>
>>> The TTT Champ is May 21st?
>>>
>>> and the TT Champ is June 4th?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> jb
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
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>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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--
John Wilger | +1 (971) 678-0999 | http://johnwilger.com

Mike Murray

There is 1 full time employee, Kenji. He is not charged with organizing
races and arguably should not be as he is charged with mediating disputes
between race organizers. There are part time employees who are paid to do
specific tasks; equipment management, membership database entry, web page,
officials assignment, results data entry, etc. The pay for the part time
positions is, to put it charitably, minimal. Basically OBRA is a coop with
a few people paid to manage processes. All race organization is done by
members.

There is no staff position for race promotion. Currently OBRA gets
championships done by contracting with race organizers at no cost. If OBRA
had an employee charged with organizing the championships it is not likely
that this could be filled by a volunteer. Ultimately it would be possible
to reorganize OBRA so that all race organization was done by OBRA
employees. This way the schedule could be proscribed by OBRA, as some seem
to wish. Ultimately this model would be considerably more expensive and
less market responsive.

Mike

*From:* Mat Braun [mailto:matbraun@gmail.com]
*Sent:* Wednesday, May 11, 2016 09:46
*To:* Mike Murray
*Cc:* Jeff Tedder; obra@list.obra.org
*Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

According to OBRA.org there are several people who are OBRA, even a few
paid staff positions?

On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 9:13 AM, Mike Murray wrote:

Who is this OBRA that you want to take over the races and put them on? OBRA
is just the membership of OBRA. That is who is putting on these races
currently. There is no group of helpful elves waiting in the wings to put
on races. OBRA championship races are often put on the schedule later as it
is a challenge to find people willing to put them on.

Mike

*From:* Mat Braun [mailto:matbraun@gmail.com]
*Sent:* Wednesday, May 11, 2016 08:38
*To:* Mike Murray
*Cc:* Jeff Tedder; obra@list.obra.org
*Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Mike,

I have to be honest it doesn't seem like an impossible task to organize the
calendar such that events work better together. It certainly doesn't seem
fair to put it on Jeff to manage this task. If state championships are so
important why are they typically left to the last minute, some years even
in danger of not happening. Has OBRA ever taken over these events and
promoted them?

Good luck to both Jeff and Kenny, it does seem that OBRA should step in and
if nothing else help facilitate their dialogue.

-Mat

On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 8:00 AM, Mike Murray via OBRA
wrote:

So Jeff, given that there are nearly twice as many weekend races on the
schedule as there are days May through August, which half of the races
would you have OBRA say no to? How would that determination be made? Please
be specific. We know you want to cancel the race held the same day as your
race. Please tell us what other races you would have OBRA cancel to reach
your desired only one race per day schedule.

I also have to point out that there is a logical flaw in complaining about
poor attendance at OBRA championship races while simultaneously complaining
about the effect on attendance at your race.

Mike Murray

On May 11, 2016, at 07:17, Jeff Tedder
wrote:

Well to start, I would just say NO to adding races that pile on top of
other races….you either choose a date that works out in your area to not
conflict with other races or you just don’t put it on….

Again, this just creates issues every year, there is races that have been
going for years and years on the same dates, weekends etc….Why would a
promoter even want to put on a race on the same day as these races anyway??
I would not do it…If I was starting a new race or doing another race I just
would not hone in on another day that has a race in my area to conflict
with it…But that me I guess….Again this goes back to OBRA just saying no
when this comes up….the schedule should come out with all the races that
have been using the same days year after year…then people wanting to change
their day or add a new race should have to do that with understanding what
races are going on and depending on where you are in the state and if it
could overlap other races and the people that attend these races....I mean
it’s almost to the point where we should just put out days for Bid and the
highest bidder gets those days… Again as I said yesterday, More is not
always Better, Quality races that people look forward to each year is more
important to me and getting the majority of racers there to race, not
having them have to choose every weekend…..On the state race issue, looking
at the attendance at many state races in the past several years…I would
say, why bother in some cases….the effort that goes into putting on a race,
and seeing the amount of people showing up at some state races, it just
seems to me, 1… hard to call it state championship in the first place, a
lot of times it’s the city its in and becomes a city championship more than
anything….State Championships should be a huge race for everyone every
year….But again, there is so much racing that people don’t really seem to
care by the attendance record, especially when its away from the Portland
area…..So we can go back and forth on this forever, everyone has their
thoughts, but again…why choose a day that already has an established race,
your race will suffer, and it also takes away from a race that has been
on-going for years, not just our race, this happens a lot in other
races….why can’t OBRA just say no? moderate what goes on in the first
place, then juggling days with other promoters is not an issue…..just my
thoughts….

Jeff

*ent:* Tuesday, May 10, 2016 10:43 PM
*To:* Jeff Tedder
*Cc:* kl_graham@comcast.net; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com; obra@list.obra.org
*Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Once again I think everybody is underestimating the difficulty of creating
a schedule that does not have conflicts. Just look at the math:

- Between May and August there are 35 weekend days

- There are 10 days of OBRA championships that need to occur during that
period.

- There are 57 other weekend day races that people have placed on the
schedule. Most of them are established races just as the HV crit is.

- There are an unknown number of races that people might have put on but
they did not wish to compete for a date with another race.

Given the above it is inevitable that there will be days with more than one
race. Actually if things are evenly distributed there will be 1.9 races
each weekend day.

If OBRA was in the business of limiting the number of races or eliminating
any conflicts how would you propose to do that? Give championships
precedence? Eliminate championships to free up space and decrease
competition for other races? Prioritize races based on some criteria and
axe the ones that have less of those criteria? How do you deal with the
people involved in the production of the races that get eliminated?

Currently what OBRA does is facilitate communication between the people who
are putting on races. The schedule is published months ahead of time. This
allows those that can and wish to change dates to avoid conflict with
another race to do so. Many races simply cannot change dates. It is not
infrequent that people in such a bind just decide to not put on races.

I also have to point out that the number of people willing to put on OBRA
championship races is not unlimited or, actually, very large. If these
races are going to happen OBRA needs to recognize the scheduling
limitations for those people.

Mike Murray

On May 10, 2016, at 21:12, Jeff Tedder via OBRA wrote:

I have been to promoters meetings and expressed how I feel and it did no
good….it just seems to me, that the way things are allowed to run creates
competition within the people that promote races…which in my mind is not
good for racing…. If I was going to put on another race or start a new
race…I would never pick a date that already had a race for 2 reasons….. 1,
I would not want to push in someone elses date that has had an ongoing race
for years, and 2, I think there is way to much on the schedule now and
cramming races in, is not helping the attendance and any ones races….how is
that good for racing in Oregon? For whatever the reason, attendance at
state races and others is down if I recall….we have leveled off at the HV
crit the last few years, but finally got it to a point where we make a few
bucks for our efforts after 6 or 7 years….take 50 or 60 people out of the
loop and we are back to luck if we break even…..Just seems to me for all
our efforts, all promoters included you would want some kind of return to
yourself or team for all the hard work…..

Not seeing how many races we can jam into the race schedule but making less
races more quality events….The reason our race has become popular is we get
tons of prizes and primes from sponsors and beyond to the point we are
giving primes away almost every lap in some races….People love it, it’s a
fun atmosphere and and we have a lot of followers now that love the venue
and what we do… But I see many races on the schedule the past few years and
then cancelled….reason??? not sure but I would guess a lot has to do with
jamming other races onto those days and then its just not worth the
effort…..So seems like that’s where OBRA has been leading itself the past
several years…..and attendance is dropping, so I guess I put 2 and 2
together like many others that emailed me in the past 24 hours and its just
not good for racing…..

Jeff

*From:* kl_graham@comcast.net [mailto:kl_graham@comcast.net
]
*Sent:* Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:53 PM
*To:* sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
*Cc:* obra@list.obra.org; miker0629@yahoo.com
*Subject:* RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Jeff

Since this platform you want to have and you're not wanting to work
together on a solution, I wish you good luck on June 4th. This could have
been figured out 24 hours ago, so don't worry about calling.

If you're at the upcoming promoters meeting, and you want to have this
discussion face to face, I'm in. Straight conversation for a better
solution.

But I've got my 5th race to promote, a cycling team to run, and to be an
OBRA Official when needed. Other folks work hard as well, but I also feel
the calendar needs work. It's up to us though to work together to find
solutions in the interim.

Good luck in all your endeavor.

Kenny Graham

Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App

-----Original Message-----

From: sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
To: ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net,miker0629@yahoo.com,obra@list.obra.org
Sent: 2016-05-10 5:29:10 PM
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

That makes no sense to me and others…so you allow people to work their
asses off building a race over years to the point now that it’s the
favorite crit of the year for most people and then allow others to just
take that date….I don’t think so….I have put way way way to much personal
time and our teams help over the years to build this race into a great day
to have that happen…and compae attendance at said races you want to allow
to have priority….not so great….

*From:* Ron [mailto:ronfrerichs@hotmail.com ]
*Sent:* Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:24 PM
*To:* Jeff Tedder
*Cc:* Michael Richardson; kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
*Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

I completely agree with your first statement.

I suggest we allow Championship Race promoters to have first crack at the
schedule, then let other promoters work around them.

Ron

On May 10, 2016, at 4:37 PM, Jeff Tedder via OBRA
wrote:

Ya it is a worry, a state championship race should never be on the same day
as any race….and we have been putting this race on for years, finally get
to the point where we get good attendance and then this…..all this does is
create a competition between people that pit races on……….Plus we have many
many people that TT on our team and we need them to help put our race
on…..so then what ? they have to skip a state championship because people
cannot figure out that this is bad for racing,,,,stupid….

*From:* OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org ]
*On Behalf Of *Michael Richardson via OBRA
*Sent:* Tuesday, May 10, 2016 1:26 PM
*To:* kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
*Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

No worries.

Fast Twitch = crit

Slow Twitch = TT

Mike (all slow all the time myself)

On May 10, 2016, at 5:54 AM, via OBRA wrote:

We put this where there was space available and where time allowed. We have
permits and registration is open.

No trying to under cut yall - but if we go any later in the calendar year,
we run into issues with the local farmers.

I tried to email you last night about this, but your email rejected back to
me.

If you would like to talk man to man about this, please call me directly at
5419059698.

Kenny

Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App

-----Original Message-----

From: obra@list.obra.org
To: bike-cyclisme@yahoogroups.com,jfbenenate@yahoo.com,
lauradela67@icloud.com,obra@list.obra.org,sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
Cc:
Sent: 2016-05-09 11:57:11 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Ya and the Hammer Velo Crit is on June 4th, first and biggest crit of the
year…Why they piled a satate championship race on top of our long standing
race is beyond me…

But ya’ll know its always a good one, with toms of prizes and primes..and
always sunny : )

See ya, Jeff

Hammer Velo

*From:* OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org ]
*On Behalf Of *John Benenate via OBRA
*Sent:* Monday, May 9, 2016 4:16 PM
*To:* OBRA List; yahoogroups; Laura Delahoussaye
*Subject:* [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Just checkin'

The TTT Champ is May 21st?

and the TT Champ is June 4th?

Thanks,

jb

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Mike Murray

When you see races being canceled or not promoting again the following year
what you are noticing is the market culling events that no longer have
support, which failed to attract sufficient participants, failed to cover
expenses adequately, etc. Basically free market in effect. What you are
asking for is market protection. Ultimately market protection allows people
to output lower quality product and still succeed in the market. Jeff, your
race is put on well. It will attract enough riders. You don’t need market
protection.

Mike

*From:* Jeff Tedder [mailto:sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com]
*Sent:* Wednesday, May 11, 2016 09:38
*To:* 'Robert'; 'Jeff Tedder via OBRA'; 'Mike Murray'
*Cc:* obra@list.obra.org
*Subject:* RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Well we all have our opinions on limiting races….more is not better….I
think the attendance record of OBRA is maybe proving that slowly and all
the races that get cancelled….

So I will put my efforts into our race at this time, we have great support
each year for our race and the team….and we are looking forward to it as we
do every year…

See ya

*From:* Robert [mailto:robert@rpcsystems.com ]
*Sent:* Wednesday, May 11, 2016 9:29 AM
*To:* Jeff Tedder; 'Jeff Tedder via OBRA'; 'Mike Murray'
*Cc:* obra@list.obra.org
*Subject:* RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

So if I have an established construction company, do I tell the CCB not
license any more companies because it might take from my customers? That
obviously doesn't make sense, and neither does your point of limiting races.

OBRA is a sanctioning body just like USA Cycling. USAC doesn't promote
races either. All the national events are promoted by an experienced race
promoter.

On May 11, 2016 9:20:57 AM PDT, Jeff Tedder
wrote:

Attendance is not down at our race, so no fault at all….but you start
piling other races on top of that day and I am sure we will loose
people…that’s the point of this whole string….

And why cannot OBRA promote its own state championships along with the help
of teams?

*From:* Robert [mailto:robert@rpcsystems.com ]
*Sent:* Wednesday, May 11, 2016 9:09 AM
*To:* Jeff Tedder; Jeff Tedder via OBRA; 'Mike Murray'
*Cc:* obra@list.obra.org
*Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Jeff, you are missing a couple important points.

First, OBRA is the sanctioning body - not the promoter. They, just like USA
Cycling, don't dictate the schedule. They just sell the promoter
"sanctioning".

Second, if attendance is down at your race, it is typically your fault. Let
me ask you this ... how much promoting had been done? Because you put it on
the schedule doesn't mean people will come. How many emails to this list
have been sent out in the last three months? How many Facebook posts? How
many tweets? How many fliers printed?

If I start a construction company, and I don't have enough customers,
should I promote my business, of have half the other construction companies
in the area shut down? Obviously the answer is promote - as I have done for
the last 20 years for my own business.

Robert

On May 11, 2016 8:29:51 AM PDT, Jeff Tedder via OBRA
wrote:

Well at this point, its like the homeless garbage camps in Portland….its
kind of out of control and been let go to long and to the point that how do
you fix it??

That’s a good question…..these races that change days or are new races
should not be allowed to be piled on other race days……Not just our race its
many I am sure without looking at the schedule…If you choose to change your
day then you have to fit in the schedule or not put it on….thats up to
you…..if you have a date that you have been using and then you change that
day, how is it fair to just say well I will put my race on the same day as
some else that has had that day for years….how is this benefitting anyone
in bike racing…Quality races are much better than splitting up obra members
2 or 3 ways sometimes….

So at this point I am not sure how you fix it other than saying no…if
people want to change days or add a day, just say no…..that atleast will
stop it at this point and then the rest could be worked on from there…but
continuing to allow this is not helping the problem….

And complaining about state races has nothing to do with complaining about
it effecting our race because they should never be put on the same day…. :
)

Maybe OBRA should promote all state championships? Along with help and
volunteers from all obra teams to make it a group effort…. And have the
same days each year on the schedule…and not have races piled on top of them
as well…maybe people might get interested again? who knows?

But if we have them, and they are called state championships then they
should be a big deal for people and I guess us and OBRA have to make that
happen…

Jeff

*From:* Mike Murray [mailto:mike.murray@obra.org ]
*Sent:* Wednesday, May 11, 2016 8:01 AM
*To:* Jeff Tedder
*Cc:* kl_graham@comcast.net; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com; obra@list.obra.org
*Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

So Jeff, given that there are nearly twice as many weekend races on the
schedule as there are days May through August, which half of the races
would you have OBRA say no to? How would that determination be made? Please
be specific. We know you want to cancel the race held the same day as your
race. Please tell us what other races you would have OBRA cancel to reach
your desired only one race per day schedule.

I also have to point out that there is a logical flaw in complaining about
poor attendance at OBRA championship races while simultaneously complaining
about the effect on attendance at your race.

Mike Murray

On May 11, 2016, at 07:17, Jeff Tedder
wrote:

Well to start, I would just say NO to adding races that pile on top of
other races….you either choose a date that works out in your area to not
conflict with other races or you just don’t put it on….

Again, this just creates issues every year, there is races that have been
going for years and years on the same dates, weekends etc….Why would a
promoter even want to put on a race on the same day as these races anyway??
I would not do it…If I was starting a new race or doing another race I just
would not hone in on another day that has a race in my area to conflict
with it…But that me I guess….Again this goes back to OBRA just saying no
when this comes up….the schedule should come out with all the races that
have been using the same days year after year…then people wanting to change
their day or add a new race should have to do that with understanding what
races are going on and depending on where you are in the state and if it
could overlap other races and the people that attend these races....I mean
it’s almost to the point where we should just put out days for Bid and the
highest bidder gets those days… Again as I said yesterday, More is not
always Better, Quality races that people look forward to each year is more
important to me and getting the majority of racers there to race, not
having them have to choose every weekend…..On the state race issue, looking
at the attendance at many state races in the past several years…I would
say, why bother in some cases….the effort that goes into putting on a race,
and seeing the amount of people showing up at some state races, it just
seems to me, 1… hard to call it state championship in the first place, a
lot of times it’s the city its in and becomes a city championship more than
anything….State Championships should be a huge race for everyone every
year….But again, there is so much racing that people don’t really seem to
care by the attendance record, especially when its away from the Portland
area…..So we can go back and forth on this forever, everyone has their
thoughts, but again…why choose a day that already has an established race,
your race will suffer, and it also takes away from a race that has been
on-going for years, not just our race, this happens a lot in other
races….why can’t OBRA just say no? moderate what goes on in the first
place, then juggling days with other promoters is not an issue…..just my
thoughts….

Jeff

*ent:* Tuesday, May 10, 2016 10:43 PM
*To:* Jeff Tedder
*Cc:* kl_graham@comcast.net; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com; obra@list.obra.org
*Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Once again I think everybody is underestimating the difficulty of creating
a schedule that does not have conflicts. Just look at the math:

- Between May and August there are 35 weekend days

- There are 10 days of OBRA championships that need to occur during that
period.

- There are 57 other weekend day races that people have placed on the
schedule. Most of them are established races just as the HV crit is.

- There are an unknown number of races that people might have put on but
they did not wish to compete for a date with another race.

Given the above it is inevitable that there will be days with more than one
race. Actually if things are evenly distributed there will be 1.9 races
each weekend day.

If OBRA was in the business of limiting the number of races or eliminating
any conflicts how would you propose to do that? Give championships
precedence? Eliminate championships to free up space and decrease
competition for other races? Prioritize races based on some criteria and
axe the ones that have less of those criteria? How do you deal with the
people involved in the production of the races that get eliminated?

Currently what OBRA does is facilitate communication between the people who
are putting on races. The schedule is published months ahead of time. This
allows those that can and wish to change dates to avoid conflict with
another race to do so. Many races simply cannot change dates. It is not
infrequent that people in such a bind just decide to not put on races.

I also have to point out that the number of people willing to put on OBRA
championship races is not unlimited or, actually, very large. If these
races are going to happen OBRA needs to recognize the scheduling
limitations for those people.

Mike Murray

On May 10, 2016, at 21:12, Jeff Tedder via OBRA wrote:

I have been to promoters meetings and expressed how I feel and it did no
good….it just seems to me, that the way things are allowed to run creates
competition within the people that promote races…which in my mind is not
good for racing…. If I was going to put on another race or start a new
race…I would never pick a date that already had a race for 2 reasons….. 1,
I would not want to push in someone elses date that has had an ongoing race
for years, and 2, I think there is way to much on the schedule now and
cramming races in, is not helping the attendance and any ones races….how is
that good for racing in Oregon? For whatever the reason, attendance at
state races and others is down if I recall….we have leveled off at the HV
crit the last few years, but finally got it to a point where we make a few
bucks for our efforts after 6 or 7 years….take 50 or 60 people out of the
loop and we are back to luck if we break even…..Just seems to me for all
our efforts, all promoters included you would want some kind of return to
yourself or team for all the hard work…..

Not seeing how many races we can jam into the race schedule but making less
races more quality events….The reason our race has become popular is we get
tons of prizes and primes from sponsors and beyond to the point we are
giving primes away almost every lap in some races….People love it, it’s a
fun atmosphere and and we have a lot of followers now that love the venue
and what we do… But I see many races on the schedule the past few years and
then cancelled….reason??? not sure but I would guess a lot has to do with
jamming other races onto those days and then its just not worth the
effort…..So seems like that’s where OBRA has been leading itself the past
several years…..and attendance is dropping, so I guess I put 2 and 2
together like many others that emailed me in the past 24 hours and its just
not good for racing…..

Jeff

*From:* kl_graham@comcast.net [mailto:kl_graham@comcast.net
]
*Sent:* Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:53 PM
*To:* sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
*Cc:* obra@list.obra.org; miker0629@yahoo.com
*Subject:* RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Jeff

Since this platform you want to have and you're not wanting to work
together on a solution, I wish you good luck on June 4th. This could have
been figured out 24 hours ago, so don't worry about calling.

If you're at the upcoming promoters meeting, and you want to have this
discussion face to face, I'm in. Straight conversation for a better
solution.

But I've got my 5th race to promote, a cycling team to run, and to be an
OBRA Official when needed. Other folks work hard as well, but I also feel
the calendar needs work. It's up to us though to work together to find
solutions in the interim.

Good luck in all your endeavor.

Kenny Graham

Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App

-----Original Message-----

From: sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
To: ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net,miker0629@yahoo.com,obra@list.obra.org
Sent: 2016-05-10 5:29:10 PM
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

That makes no sense to me and others…so you allow people to work their
asses off building a race over years to the point now that it’s the
favorite crit of the year for most people and then allow others to just
take that date….I don’t think so….I have put way way way to much personal
time and our teams help over the years to build this race into a great day
to have that happen…and compae attendance at said races you want to allow
to have priority….not so great….

*From:* Ron [mailto:ronfrerichs@hotmail.com ]
*Sent:* Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:24 PM
*To:* Jeff Tedder
*Cc:* Michael Richardson; kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
*Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

I completely agree with your first statement.

I suggest we allow Championship Race promoters to have first crack at the
schedule, then let other promoters work around them.

Ron

On May 10, 2016, at 4:37 PM, Jeff Tedder via OBRA
wrote:

Ya it is a worry, a state championship race should never be on the same day
as any race….and we have been putting this race on for years, finally get
to the point where we get good attendance and then this…..all this does is
create a competition between people that pit races on……….Plus we have many
many people that TT on our team and we need them to help put our race
on…..so then what ? they have to skip a state championship because people
cannot figure out that this is bad for racing,,,,stupid….

*From:* OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org ]
*On Behalf Of *Michael Richardson via OBRA
*Sent:* Tuesday, May 10, 2016 1:26 PM
*To:* kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
*Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

No worries.

Fast Twitch = crit

Slow Twitch = TT

Mike (all slow all the time myself)

On May 10, 2016, at 5:54 AM, via OBRA wrote:

We put this where there was space available and where time allowed. We have
permits and registration is open.

No trying to under cut yall - but if we go any later in the calendar year,
we run into issues with the local farmers.

I tried to email you last night about this, but your email rejected back to
me.

If you would like to talk man to man about this, please call me directly at
5419059698.

Kenny

Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App

-----Original Message-----

From: obra@list.obra.org
To: bike-cyclisme@yahoogroups.com,jfbenenate@yahoo.com,
lauradela67@icloud.com,obra@list.obra.org,sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
Cc:
Sent: 2016-05-09 11:57:11 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Ya and the Hammer Velo Crit is on June 4th, first and biggest crit of the
year…Why they piled a satate championship race on top of our long standing
race is beyond me…

But ya’ll know its always a good one, with toms of prizes and primes..and
always sunny : )

See ya, Jeff

Hammer Velo

*From:* OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org ]
*On Behalf Of *John Benenate via OBRA
*Sent:* Monday, May 9, 2016 4:16 PM
*To:* OBRA List; yahoogroups; Laura Delahoussaye
*Subject:* [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Just checkin'

The TTT Champ is May 21st?

and the TT Champ is June 4th?

Thanks,

jb

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--
>^•.•^<

Steven Beardsley

I have a suggestion for everyone.

The OBRA Admin Rules (http://www.obra.org/pdfs/2016_admin_rules.pdf) set
out the rules for events and their approval, requirements, conflict
resolution, etc. These rules can be modified by the Board of Directors or
by the vote of the OBRA club representatives. I highly suggest that the
clubs propose the rule changes that they would like to see made and then
send representatives to the annual meeting to vote on those changes. This
is the system that is in place for dealing with these issues. Sending silly
emails to the OBRA chat will not change the rules.

On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 9:45 AM, Mat Braun via OBRA
wrote:

> According to OBRA.org there are several people who are OBRA, even a few
> paid staff positions?
>
> On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 9:13 AM, Mike Murray wrote:
>
>> Who is this OBRA that you want to take over the races and put them on?
>> OBRA is just the membership of OBRA. That is who is putting on these races
>> currently. There is no group of helpful elves waiting in the wings to put
>> on races. OBRA championship races are often put on the schedule later as it
>> is a challenge to find people willing to put them on.
>>
>>
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Mat Braun [mailto:matbraun@gmail.com]
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 11, 2016 08:38
>> *To:* Mike Murray
>> *Cc:* Jeff Tedder; obra@list.obra.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>
>>
>>
>> Mike,
>>
>>
>>
>> I have to be honest it doesn't seem like an impossible task to organize
>> the calendar such that events work better together. It certainly doesn't
>> seem fair to put it on Jeff to manage this task. If state championships
>> are so important why are they typically left to the last minute, some years
>> even in danger of not happening. Has OBRA ever taken over these events and
>> promoted them?
>>
>>
>>
>> Good luck to both Jeff and Kenny, it does seem that OBRA should step in
>> and if nothing else help facilitate their dialogue.
>>
>> -Mat
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 8:00 AM, Mike Murray via OBRA
>> wrote:
>>
>> So Jeff, given that there are nearly twice as many weekend races on the
>> schedule as there are days May through August, which half of the races
>> would you have OBRA say no to? How would that determination be made? Please
>> be specific. We know you want to cancel the race held the same day as your
>> race. Please tell us what other races you would have OBRA cancel to reach
>> your desired only one race per day schedule.
>>
>>
>>
>> I also have to point out that there is a logical flaw in complaining
>> about poor attendance at OBRA championship races while simultaneously
>> complaining about the effect on attendance at your race.
>>
>> Mike Murray
>>
>>
>> On May 11, 2016, at 07:17, Jeff Tedder
>> wrote:
>>
>> Well to start, I would just say NO to adding races that pile on top of
>> other races….you either choose a date that works out in your area to not
>> conflict with other races or you just don’t put it on….
>>
>> Again, this just creates issues every year, there is races that have been
>> going for years and years on the same dates, weekends etc….Why would a
>> promoter even want to put on a race on the same day as these races anyway??
>> I would not do it…If I was starting a new race or doing another race I just
>> would not hone in on another day that has a race in my area to conflict
>> with it…But that me I guess….Again this goes back to OBRA just saying no
>> when this comes up….the schedule should come out with all the races that
>> have been using the same days year after year…then people wanting to change
>> their day or add a new race should have to do that with understanding what
>> races are going on and depending on where you are in the state and if it
>> could overlap other races and the people that attend these races....I mean
>> it’s almost to the point where we should just put out days for Bid and the
>> highest bidder gets those days… Again as I said yesterday, More is not
>> always Better, Quality races that people look forward to each year is more
>> important to me and getting the majority of racers there to race, not
>> having them have to choose every weekend…..On the state race issue, looking
>> at the attendance at many state races in the past several years…I would
>> say, why bother in some cases….the effort that goes into putting on a race,
>> and seeing the amount of people showing up at some state races, it just
>> seems to me, 1… hard to call it state championship in the first place, a
>> lot of times it’s the city its in and becomes a city championship more than
>> anything….State Championships should be a huge race for everyone every
>> year….But again, there is so much racing that people don’t really seem to
>> care by the attendance record, especially when its away from the Portland
>> area…..So we can go back and forth on this forever, everyone has their
>> thoughts, but again…why choose a day that already has an established race,
>> your race will suffer, and it also takes away from a race that has been
>> on-going for years, not just our race, this happens a lot in other
>> races….why can’t OBRA just say no? moderate what goes on in the first
>> place, then juggling days with other promoters is not an issue…..just my
>> thoughts….
>>
>>
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *ent:* Tuesday, May 10, 2016 10:43 PM
>> *To:* Jeff Tedder
>> *Cc:* kl_graham@comcast.net; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com; obra@list.obra.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>
>>
>>
>> Once again I think everybody is underestimating the difficulty of
>> creating a schedule that does not have conflicts. Just look at the math:
>>
>>
>>
>> - Between May and August there are 35 weekend days
>>
>> - There are 10 days of OBRA championships that need to occur during that
>> period.
>>
>> - There are 57 other weekend day races that people have placed on the
>> schedule. Most of them are established races just as the HV crit is.
>>
>> - There are an unknown number of races that people might have put on but
>> they did not wish to compete for a date with another race.
>>
>>
>>
>> Given the above it is inevitable that there will be days with more than
>> one race. Actually if things are evenly distributed there will be 1.9 races
>> each weekend day.
>>
>>
>>
>> If OBRA was in the business of limiting the number of races or
>> eliminating any conflicts how would you propose to do that? Give
>> championships precedence? Eliminate championships to free up space and
>> decrease competition for other races? Prioritize races based on some
>> criteria and axe the ones that have less of those criteria? How do you deal
>> with the people involved in the production of the races that get eliminated?
>>
>>
>>
>> Currently what OBRA does is facilitate communication between the people
>> who are putting on races. The schedule is published months ahead of time.
>> This allows those that can and wish to change dates to avoid conflict with
>> another race to do so. Many races simply cannot change dates. It is not
>> infrequent that people in such a bind just decide to not put on races.
>>
>>
>>
>> I also have to point out that the number of people willing to put on OBRA
>> championship races is not unlimited or, actually, very large. If these
>> races are going to happen OBRA needs to recognize the scheduling
>> limitations for those people.
>>
>>
>> Mike Murray
>>
>>
>> On May 10, 2016, at 21:12, Jeff Tedder via OBRA
>> wrote:
>>
>> I have been to promoters meetings and expressed how I feel and it did no
>> good….it just seems to me, that the way things are allowed to run creates
>> competition within the people that promote races…which in my mind is not
>> good for racing…. If I was going to put on another race or start a new
>> race…I would never pick a date that already had a race for 2 reasons….. 1,
>> I would not want to push in someone elses date that has had an ongoing race
>> for years, and 2, I think there is way to much on the schedule now and
>> cramming races in, is not helping the attendance and any ones races….how is
>> that good for racing in Oregon? For whatever the reason, attendance at
>> state races and others is down if I recall….we have leveled off at the HV
>> crit the last few years, but finally got it to a point where we make a few
>> bucks for our efforts after 6 or 7 years….take 50 or 60 people out of the
>> loop and we are back to luck if we break even…..Just seems to me for all
>> our efforts, all promoters included you would want some kind of return to
>> yourself or team for all the hard work…..
>>
>> Not seeing how many races we can jam into the race schedule but making
>> less races more quality events….The reason our race has become popular is
>> we get tons of prizes and primes from sponsors and beyond to the point we
>> are giving primes away almost every lap in some races….People love it, it’s
>> a fun atmosphere and and we have a lot of followers now that love the venue
>> and what we do… But I see many races on the schedule the past few years and
>> then cancelled….reason??? not sure but I would guess a lot has to do with
>> jamming other races onto those days and then its just not worth the
>> effort…..So seems like that’s where OBRA has been leading itself the past
>> several years…..and attendance is dropping, so I guess I put 2 and 2
>> together like many others that emailed me in the past 24 hours and its just
>> not good for racing…..
>>
>>
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>> *From:* kl_graham@comcast.net [mailto:kl_graham@comcast.net
>> ]
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:53 PM
>> *To:* sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
>> *Cc:* obra@list.obra.org; miker0629@yahoo.com
>> *Subject:* RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>
>>
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>> Since this platform you want to have and you're not wanting to work
>> together on a solution, I wish you good luck on June 4th. This could have
>> been figured out 24 hours ago, so don't worry about calling.
>>
>> If you're at the upcoming promoters meeting, and you want to have this
>> discussion face to face, I'm in. Straight conversation for a better
>> solution.
>>
>> But I've got my 5th race to promote, a cycling team to run, and to be an
>> OBRA Official when needed. Other folks work hard as well, but I also feel
>> the calendar needs work. It's up to us though to work together to find
>> solutions in the interim.
>>
>> Good luck in all your endeavor.
>>
>>
>>
>> Kenny Graham
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>> From: sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
>> To: ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
>> Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net,miker0629@yahoo.com,obra@list.obra.org
>> Sent: 2016-05-10 5:29:10 PM
>> Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>
>> That makes no sense to me and others…so you allow people to work their
>> asses off building a race over years to the point now that it’s the
>> favorite crit of the year for most people and then allow others to just
>> take that date….I don’t think so….I have put way way way to much personal
>> time and our teams help over the years to build this race into a great day
>> to have that happen…and compae attendance at said races you want to allow
>> to have priority….not so great….
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Ron [mailto:ronfrerichs@hotmail.com ]
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:24 PM
>> *To:* Jeff Tedder
>> *Cc:* Michael Richardson; kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>
>>
>>
>> I completely agree with your first statement.
>>
>>
>>
>> I suggest we allow Championship Race promoters to have first crack at the
>> schedule, then let other promoters work around them.
>>
>>
>>
>> Ron
>>
>>
>> On May 10, 2016, at 4:37 PM, Jeff Tedder via OBRA
>> wrote:
>>
>> Ya it is a worry, a state championship race should never be on the same
>> day as any race….and we have been putting this race on for years, finally
>> get to the point where we get good attendance and then this…..all this does
>> is create a competition between people that pit races on……….Plus we have
>> many many people that TT on our team and we need them to help put our race
>> on…..so then what ? they have to skip a state championship because people
>> cannot figure out that this is bad for racing,,,,stupid….
>>
>> *From:* OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org
>> ] *On Behalf Of *Michael Richardson via OBRA
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 10, 2016 1:26 PM
>> *To:* kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>
>>
>>
>> No worries.
>>
>>
>>
>> Fast Twitch = crit
>>
>> Slow Twitch = TT
>>
>>
>> Mike (all slow all the time myself)
>>
>>
>> On May 10, 2016, at 5:54 AM, via OBRA wrote:
>>
>> We put this where there was space available and where time allowed. We
>> have permits and registration is open.
>>
>> No trying to under cut yall - but if we go any later in the calendar
>> year, we run into issues with the local farmers.
>>
>> I tried to email you last night about this, but your email rejected back
>> to me.
>>
>> If you would like to talk man to man about this, please call me directly
>> at 5419059698.
>>
>> Kenny
>>
>> Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>> From: obra@list.obra.org
>> To: bike-cyclisme@yahoogroups.com,jfbenenate@yahoo.com,
>> lauradela67@icloud.com,obra@list.obra.org,sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
>> Cc:
>> Sent: 2016-05-09 11:57:11 PM
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>
>>
>>
>> Ya and the Hammer Velo Crit is on June 4th, first and biggest crit of
>> the year…Why they piled a satate championship race on top of our long
>> standing race is beyond me…
>>
>> But ya’ll know its always a good one, with toms of prizes and primes..and
>> always sunny : )
>>
>>
>>
>> See ya, Jeff
>>
>> Hammer Velo
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org
>> ] *On Behalf Of *John Benenate via OBRA
>> *Sent:* Monday, May 9, 2016 4:16 PM
>> *To:* OBRA List; yahoogroups; Laura Delahoussaye
>> *Subject:* [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>>
>>
>>
>> Just checkin'
>>
>> The TTT Champ is May 21st?
>>
>> and the TT Champ is June 4th?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> jb
>>
>> _______________________________________________ OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

rond..@spiritone.com

Wow! People need to remember that we do not always get exactly what we want. In an election year this might make it even more clear to our adult minds...especially those of us who have been around long enough to have seen what life and elections serve us up.
I hear good people here saying things because they are passionate about racing. Remember to respect each other.
There are people out there who think OBRA is way over the top with regard to power broker / control freak operation. Those folks I have spoken with who feel this way do not understand how great OBRA is compared to the real control freak culture of USAC. Be careful what you ask for (with regard to OBRA). Supporting all racers is one thing (yeah OBRA). Making the main focus just a thinning process to select just the best (USAC...and letting members / fees pay for the process)....is not really what is best for cycling and getting regular people to try racing.
If something needed to be changed (in OBRA rules) to protect the championship process it should be fair to racers, promoters and very clear with regard to what promoters need to “do” (including windows for dates that are updated well in advance). If that is out there for all to see, then it is fair. And there will still be people who do not get exactly what they want.
Best of luck racers and promoters and thanks for all the hard work. I will show up for the ones that interest me.
ronnie

From: Jeff Tedder via OBRA
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 9:20 AM
To: 'Robert' ; 'Jeff Tedder via OBRA' ; 'Mike Murray'
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Attendance is not down at our race, so no fault at all….but you start piling other races on top of that day and I am sure we will loose people…that’s the point of this whole string….

And why cannot OBRA promote its own state championships along with the help of teams?

From: Robert [mailto:robert@rpcsystems.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 9:09 AM
To: Jeff Tedder; Jeff Tedder via OBRA; 'Mike Murray'
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Jeff, you are missing a couple important points.

First, OBRA is the sanctioning body - not the promoter. They, just like USA Cycling, don't dictate the schedule. They just sell the promoter "sanctioning".

Second, if attendance is down at your race, it is typically your fault. Let me ask you this ... how much promoting had been done? Because you put it on the schedule doesn't mean people will come. How many emails to this list have been sent out in the last three months? How many Facebook posts? How many tweets? How many fliers printed?

If I start a construction company, and I don't have enough customers, should I promote my business, of have half the other construction companies in the area shut down? Obviously the answer is promote - as I have done for the last 20 years for my own business.

Robert

On May 11, 2016 8:29:51 AM PDT, Jeff Tedder via OBRA wrote:

Well at this point, its like the homeless garbage camps in Portland….its kind of out of control and been let go to long and to the point that how do you fix it??

That’s a good question…..these races that change days or are new races should not be allowed to be piled on other race days……Not just our race its many I am sure without looking at the schedule…If you choose to change your day then you have to fit in the schedule or not put it on….thats up to you…..if you have a date that you have been using and then you change that day, how is it fair to just say well I will put my race on the same day as some else that has had that day for years….how is this benefitting anyone in bike racing…Quality races are much better than splitting up obra members 2 or 3 ways sometimes….

So at this point I am not sure how you fix it other than saying no…if people want to change days or add a day, just say no…..that atleast will stop it at this point and then the rest could be worked on from there…but continuing to allow this is not helping the problem….

And complaining about state races has nothing to do with complaining about it effecting our race because they should never be put on the same day…. : )

Maybe OBRA should promote all state championships? Along with help and volunteers from all obra teams to make it a group effort…. And have the same days each year on the schedule…and not have races piled on top of them as well…maybe people might get interested again? who knows?

But if we have them, and they are called state championships then they should be a big deal for people and I guess us and OBRA have to make that happen…

Jeff

From: Mike Murray [mailto:mike.murray@obra.org]
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 8:01 AM
To: Jeff Tedder
Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

So Jeff, given that there are nearly twice as many weekend races on the schedule as there are days May through August, which half of the races would you have OBRA say no to? How would that determination be made? Please be specific. We know you want to cancel the race held the same day as your race. Please tell us what other races you would have OBRA cancel to reach your desired only one race per day schedule.

I also have to point out that there is a logical flaw in complaining about poor attendance at OBRA championship races while simultaneously complaining about the effect on attendance at your race.

Mike Murray

On May 11, 2016, at 07:17, Jeff Tedder wrote:

Well to start, I would just say NO to adding races that pile on top of other races….you either choose a date that works out in your area to not conflict with other races or you just don’t put it on….

Again, this just creates issues every year, there is races that have been going for years and years on the same dates, weekends etc….Why would a promoter even want to put on a race on the same day as these races anyway?? I would not do it…If I was starting a new race or doing another race I just would not hone in on another day that has a race in my area to conflict with it…But that me I guess….Again this goes back to OBRA just saying no when this comes up….the schedule should come out with all the races that have been using the same days year after year…then people wanting to change their day or add a new race should have to do that with understanding what races are going on and depending on where you are in the state and if it could overlap other races and the people that attend these races....I mean it’s almost to the point where we should just put out days for Bid and the highest bidder gets those days… Again as I said yesterday, More is not always Better, Quality races that people look forward to each year is more important to me and getting the majority of racers there to race, not having them have to choose every weekend…..On the state race issue, looking at the attendance at many state races in the past several years…I would say, why bother in some cases….the effort that goes into putting on a race, and seeing the amount of people showing up at some state races, it just seems to me, 1… hard to call it state championship in the first place, a lot of times it’s the city its in and becomes a city championship more than anything….State Championships should be a huge race for everyone every year….But again, there is so much racing that people don’t really seem to care by the attendance record, especially when its away from the Portland area…..So we can go back and forth on this forever, everyone has their thoughts, but again…why choose a day that already has an established race, your race will suffer, and it also takes away from a race that has been on-going for years, not just our race, this happens a lot in other races….why can’t OBRA just say no? moderate what goes on in the first place, then juggling days with other promoters is not an issue…..just my thoughts….

Jeff

ent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 10:43 PM
To: Jeff Tedder
Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Once again I think everybody is underestimating the difficulty of creating a schedule that does not have conflicts. Just look at the math:

- Between May and August there are 35 weekend days

- There are 10 days of OBRA championships that need to occur during that period.

- There are 57 other weekend day races that people have placed on the schedule. Most of them are established races just as the HV crit is.

- There are an unknown number of races that people might have put on but they did not wish to compete for a date with another race.

Given the above it is inevitable that there will be days with more than one race. Actually if things are evenly distributed there will be 1.9 races each weekend day.

If OBRA was in the business of limiting the number of races or eliminating any conflicts how would you propose to do that? Give championships precedence? Eliminate championships to free up space and decrease competition for other races? Prioritize races based on some criteria and axe the ones that have less of those criteria? How do you deal with the people involved in the production of the races that get eliminated?

Currently what OBRA does is facilitate communication between the people who are putting on races. The schedule is published months ahead of time. This allows those that can and wish to change dates to avoid conflict with another race to do so. Many races simply cannot change dates. It is not infrequent that people in such a bind just decide to not put on races.

I also have to point out that the number of people willing to put on OBRA championship races is not unlimited or, actually, very large. If these races are going to happen OBRA needs to recognize the scheduling limitations for those people.

Mike Murray

On May 10, 2016, at 21:12, Jeff Tedder via OBRA wrote:

I have been to promoters meetings and expressed how I feel and it did no good….it just seems to me, that the way things are allowed to run creates competition within the people that promote races…which in my mind is not good for racing…. If I was going to put on another race or start a new race…I would never pick a date that already had a race for 2 reasons….. 1, I would not want to push in someone elses date that has had an ongoing race for years, and 2, I think there is way to much on the schedule now and cramming races in, is not helping the attendance and any ones races….how is that good for racing in Oregon? For whatever the reason, attendance at state races and others is down if I recall….we have leveled off at the HV crit the last few years, but finally got it to a point where we make a few bucks for our efforts after 6 or 7 years….take 50 or 60 people out of the loop and we are back to luck if we break even…..Just seems to me for all our efforts, all promoters included you would want some kind of return to yourself or team for all the hard work…..

Not seeing how many races we can jam into the race schedule but making less races more quality events….The reason our race has become popular is we get tons of prizes and primes from sponsors and beyond to the point we are giving primes away almost every lap in some races….People love it, it’s a fun atmosphere and and we have a lot of followers now that love the venue and what we do… But I see many races on the schedule the past few years and then cancelled….reason??? not sure but I would guess a lot has to do with jamming other races onto those days and then its just not worth the effort…..So seems like that’s where OBRA has been leading itself the past several years…..and attendance is dropping, so I guess I put 2 and 2 together like many others that emailed me in the past 24 hours and its just not good for racing…..

Jeff

From: kl_graham@comcast.net [mailto:kl_graham@comcast.net]
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:53 PM
To: sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
Cc: obra@list.obra.org; miker0629@yahoo.com
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Jeff

Since this platform you want to have and you're not wanting to work together on a solution, I wish you good luck on June 4th. This could have been figured out 24 hours ago, so don't worry about calling.

If you're at the upcoming promoters meeting, and you want to have this discussion face to face, I'm in. Straight conversation for a better solution.

But I've got my 5th race to promote, a cycling team to run, and to be an OBRA Official when needed. Other folks work hard as well, but I also feel the calendar needs work. It's up to us though to work together to find solutions in the interim.

Good luck in all your endeavor.

Kenny Graham

Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App

-----Original Message-----

From: sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
To: ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net,miker0629@yahoo.com,obra@list.obra.org
Sent: 2016-05-10 5:29:10 PM
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

That makes no sense to me and others…so you allow people to work their asses off building a race over years to the point now that it’s the favorite crit of the year for most people and then allow others to just take that date….I don’t think so….I have put way way way to much personal time and our teams help over the years to build this race into a great day to have that happen…and compae attendance at said races you want to allow to have priority….not so great….

From: Ron [mailto:ronfrerichs@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:24 PM
To: Jeff Tedder
Cc: Michael Richardson; kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

I completely agree with your first statement.

I suggest we allow Championship Race promoters to have first crack at the schedule, then let other promoters work around them.

Ron

On May 10, 2016, at 4:37 PM, Jeff Tedder via OBRA wrote:

Ya it is a worry, a state championship race should never be on the same day as any race….and we have been putting this race on for years, finally get to the point where we get good attendance and then this…..all this does is create a competition between people that pit races on……….Plus we have many many people that TT on our team and we need them to help put our race on…..so then what ? they have to skip a state championship because people cannot figure out that this is bad for racing,,,,stupid….

From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Michael Richardson via OBRA
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 1:26 PM
To: kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

No worries.

Fast Twitch = crit

Slow Twitch = TT

Mike (all slow all the time myself)

On May 10, 2016, at 5:54 AM, via OBRA wrote:

We put this where there was space available and where time allowed. We have permits and registration is open.

No trying to under cut yall - but if we go any later in the calendar year, we run into issues with the local farmers.

I tried to email you last night about this, but your email rejected back to me.

If you would like to talk man to man about this, please call me directly at 5419059698.

Kenny

Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App

-----Original Message-----

From: obra@list.obra.org
To: bike-cyclisme@yahoogroups.com,jfbenenate@yahoo.com,lauradela67@icloud.com,obra@list.obra.org,sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
Cc:
Sent: 2016-05-09 11:57:11 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Ya and the Hammer Velo Crit is on June 4th, first and biggest crit of the year…Why they piled a satate championship race on top of our long standing race is beyond me…

But ya’ll know its always a good one, with toms of prizes and primes..and always sunny : )

See ya, Jeff

Hammer Velo

From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of John Benenate via OBRA
Sent: Monday, May 9, 2016 4:16 PM
To: OBRA List; yahoogroups; Laura Delahoussaye
Subject: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Just checkin'

The TTT Champ is May 21st?

and the TT Champ is June 4th?

Thanks,

jb

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Jon Myers

I know from the mountain bike side there is a lot of early season work on the schedule to try to minimize the conflicting events. As the OBRA mounain bike rep I personally contacted every promoter that had a conflict to try to move things around. When there are two events on the same day then an open weekend the next week it is very easy to say "just move one event to that open weekend!". It is not always that easy. Some race venues might have a equestrian festival on that open weekend. A promoter might have a family event that they have to attend. A mountain might be covered in snow. Etc. Nobody (racers, promoters, officials, OBRA) want conflicting events but the schedule is very complicated. -Jon Myers

Mat Braun

According to OBRA.org there are several people who are OBRA, even a few
paid staff positions?

On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 9:13 AM, Mike Murray wrote:

> Who is this OBRA that you want to take over the races and put them on?
> OBRA is just the membership of OBRA. That is who is putting on these races
> currently. There is no group of helpful elves waiting in the wings to put
> on races. OBRA championship races are often put on the schedule later as it
> is a challenge to find people willing to put them on.
>
>
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> *From:* Mat Braun [mailto:matbraun@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 11, 2016 08:38
> *To:* Mike Murray
> *Cc:* Jeff Tedder; obra@list.obra.org
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>
>
>
> Mike,
>
>
>
> I have to be honest it doesn't seem like an impossible task to organize
> the calendar such that events work better together. It certainly doesn't
> seem fair to put it on Jeff to manage this task. If state championships
> are so important why are they typically left to the last minute, some years
> even in danger of not happening. Has OBRA ever taken over these events and
> promoted them?
>
>
>
> Good luck to both Jeff and Kenny, it does seem that OBRA should step in
> and if nothing else help facilitate their dialogue.
>
> -Mat
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 8:00 AM, Mike Murray via OBRA
> wrote:
>
> So Jeff, given that there are nearly twice as many weekend races on the
> schedule as there are days May through August, which half of the races
> would you have OBRA say no to? How would that determination be made? Please
> be specific. We know you want to cancel the race held the same day as your
> race. Please tell us what other races you would have OBRA cancel to reach
> your desired only one race per day schedule.
>
>
>
> I also have to point out that there is a logical flaw in complaining about
> poor attendance at OBRA championship races while simultaneously complaining
> about the effect on attendance at your race.
>
> Mike Murray
>
>
> On May 11, 2016, at 07:17, Jeff Tedder
> wrote:
>
> Well to start, I would just say NO to adding races that pile on top of
> other races….you either choose a date that works out in your area to not
> conflict with other races or you just don’t put it on….
>
> Again, this just creates issues every year, there is races that have been
> going for years and years on the same dates, weekends etc….Why would a
> promoter even want to put on a race on the same day as these races anyway??
> I would not do it…If I was starting a new race or doing another race I just
> would not hone in on another day that has a race in my area to conflict
> with it…But that me I guess….Again this goes back to OBRA just saying no
> when this comes up….the schedule should come out with all the races that
> have been using the same days year after year…then people wanting to change
> their day or add a new race should have to do that with understanding what
> races are going on and depending on where you are in the state and if it
> could overlap other races and the people that attend these races....I mean
> it’s almost to the point where we should just put out days for Bid and the
> highest bidder gets those days… Again as I said yesterday, More is not
> always Better, Quality races that people look forward to each year is more
> important to me and getting the majority of racers there to race, not
> having them have to choose every weekend…..On the state race issue, looking
> at the attendance at many state races in the past several years…I would
> say, why bother in some cases….the effort that goes into putting on a race,
> and seeing the amount of people showing up at some state races, it just
> seems to me, 1… hard to call it state championship in the first place, a
> lot of times it’s the city its in and becomes a city championship more than
> anything….State Championships should be a huge race for everyone every
> year….But again, there is so much racing that people don’t really seem to
> care by the attendance record, especially when its away from the Portland
> area…..So we can go back and forth on this forever, everyone has their
> thoughts, but again…why choose a day that already has an established race,
> your race will suffer, and it also takes away from a race that has been
> on-going for years, not just our race, this happens a lot in other
> races….why can’t OBRA just say no? moderate what goes on in the first
> place, then juggling days with other promoters is not an issue…..just my
> thoughts….
>
>
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *ent:* Tuesday, May 10, 2016 10:43 PM
> *To:* Jeff Tedder
> *Cc:* kl_graham@comcast.net; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com; obra@list.obra.org
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>
>
>
> Once again I think everybody is underestimating the difficulty of creating
> a schedule that does not have conflicts. Just look at the math:
>
>
>
> - Between May and August there are 35 weekend days
>
> - There are 10 days of OBRA championships that need to occur during that
> period.
>
> - There are 57 other weekend day races that people have placed on the
> schedule. Most of them are established races just as the HV crit is.
>
> - There are an unknown number of races that people might have put on but
> they did not wish to compete for a date with another race.
>
>
>
> Given the above it is inevitable that there will be days with more than
> one race. Actually if things are evenly distributed there will be 1.9 races
> each weekend day.
>
>
>
> If OBRA was in the business of limiting the number of races or eliminating
> any conflicts how would you propose to do that? Give championships
> precedence? Eliminate championships to free up space and decrease
> competition for other races? Prioritize races based on some criteria and
> axe the ones that have less of those criteria? How do you deal with the
> people involved in the production of the races that get eliminated?
>
>
>
> Currently what OBRA does is facilitate communication between the people
> who are putting on races. The schedule is published months ahead of time.
> This allows those that can and wish to change dates to avoid conflict with
> another race to do so. Many races simply cannot change dates. It is not
> infrequent that people in such a bind just decide to not put on races.
>
>
>
> I also have to point out that the number of people willing to put on OBRA
> championship races is not unlimited or, actually, very large. If these
> races are going to happen OBRA needs to recognize the scheduling
> limitations for those people.
>
>
> Mike Murray
>
>
> On May 10, 2016, at 21:12, Jeff Tedder via OBRA
> wrote:
>
> I have been to promoters meetings and expressed how I feel and it did no
> good….it just seems to me, that the way things are allowed to run creates
> competition within the people that promote races…which in my mind is not
> good for racing…. If I was going to put on another race or start a new
> race…I would never pick a date that already had a race for 2 reasons….. 1,
> I would not want to push in someone elses date that has had an ongoing race
> for years, and 2, I think there is way to much on the schedule now and
> cramming races in, is not helping the attendance and any ones races….how is
> that good for racing in Oregon? For whatever the reason, attendance at
> state races and others is down if I recall….we have leveled off at the HV
> crit the last few years, but finally got it to a point where we make a few
> bucks for our efforts after 6 or 7 years….take 50 or 60 people out of the
> loop and we are back to luck if we break even…..Just seems to me for all
> our efforts, all promoters included you would want some kind of return to
> yourself or team for all the hard work…..
>
> Not seeing how many races we can jam into the race schedule but making
> less races more quality events….The reason our race has become popular is
> we get tons of prizes and primes from sponsors and beyond to the point we
> are giving primes away almost every lap in some races….People love it, it’s
> a fun atmosphere and and we have a lot of followers now that love the venue
> and what we do… But I see many races on the schedule the past few years and
> then cancelled….reason??? not sure but I would guess a lot has to do with
> jamming other races onto those days and then its just not worth the
> effort…..So seems like that’s where OBRA has been leading itself the past
> several years…..and attendance is dropping, so I guess I put 2 and 2
> together like many others that emailed me in the past 24 hours and its just
> not good for racing…..
>
>
>
> Jeff
>
> *From:* kl_graham@comcast.net [mailto:kl_graham@comcast.net
> ]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:53 PM
> *To:* sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
> *Cc:* obra@list.obra.org; miker0629@yahoo.com
> *Subject:* RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>
>
>
> Jeff
>
> Since this platform you want to have and you're not wanting to work
> together on a solution, I wish you good luck on June 4th. This could have
> been figured out 24 hours ago, so don't worry about calling.
>
> If you're at the upcoming promoters meeting, and you want to have this
> discussion face to face, I'm in. Straight conversation for a better
> solution.
>
> But I've got my 5th race to promote, a cycling team to run, and to be an
> OBRA Official when needed. Other folks work hard as well, but I also feel
> the calendar needs work. It's up to us though to work together to find
> solutions in the interim.
>
> Good luck in all your endeavor.
>
>
>
> Kenny Graham
>
>
>
> Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
> To: ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
> Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net,miker0629@yahoo.com,obra@list.obra.org
> Sent: 2016-05-10 5:29:10 PM
> Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>
> That makes no sense to me and others…so you allow people to work their
> asses off building a race over years to the point now that it’s the
> favorite crit of the year for most people and then allow others to just
> take that date….I don’t think so….I have put way way way to much personal
> time and our teams help over the years to build this race into a great day
> to have that happen…and compae attendance at said races you want to allow
> to have priority….not so great….
>
>
>
> *From:* Ron [mailto:ronfrerichs@hotmail.com ]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:24 PM
> *To:* Jeff Tedder
> *Cc:* Michael Richardson; kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>
>
>
> I completely agree with your first statement.
>
>
>
> I suggest we allow Championship Race promoters to have first crack at the
> schedule, then let other promoters work around them.
>
>
>
> Ron
>
>
> On May 10, 2016, at 4:37 PM, Jeff Tedder via OBRA
> wrote:
>
> Ya it is a worry, a state championship race should never be on the same
> day as any race….and we have been putting this race on for years, finally
> get to the point where we get good attendance and then this…..all this does
> is create a competition between people that pit races on……….Plus we have
> many many people that TT on our team and we need them to help put our race
> on…..so then what ? they have to skip a state championship because people
> cannot figure out that this is bad for racing,,,,stupid….
>
> *From:* OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> ] *On Behalf Of *Michael Richardson via OBRA
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 10, 2016 1:26 PM
> *To:* kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>
>
>
> No worries.
>
>
>
> Fast Twitch = crit
>
> Slow Twitch = TT
>
>
> Mike (all slow all the time myself)
>
>
> On May 10, 2016, at 5:54 AM, via OBRA wrote:
>
> We put this where there was space available and where time allowed. We
> have permits and registration is open.
>
> No trying to under cut yall - but if we go any later in the calendar year,
> we run into issues with the local farmers.
>
> I tried to email you last night about this, but your email rejected back
> to me.
>
> If you would like to talk man to man about this, please call me directly
> at 5419059698.
>
> Kenny
>
> Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: obra@list.obra.org
> To: bike-cyclisme@yahoogroups.com,jfbenenate@yahoo.com,
> lauradela67@icloud.com,obra@list.obra.org,sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
> Cc:
> Sent: 2016-05-09 11:57:11 PM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>
>
>
> Ya and the Hammer Velo Crit is on June 4th, first and biggest crit of
> the year…Why they piled a satate championship race on top of our long
> standing race is beyond me…
>
> But ya’ll know its always a good one, with toms of prizes and primes..and
> always sunny : )
>
>
>
> See ya, Jeff
>
> Hammer Velo
>
>
>
> *From:* OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> ] *On Behalf Of *John Benenate via OBRA
> *Sent:* Monday, May 9, 2016 4:16 PM
> *To:* OBRA List; yahoogroups; Laura Delahoussaye
> *Subject:* [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>
>
>
> Just checkin'
>
> The TTT Champ is May 21st?
>
> and the TT Champ is June 4th?
>
> Thanks,
>
> jb
>
> _______________________________________________ OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
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Mike Murray

So … below are the scheduled weekend race days between May and August.
Which ones get cut under your plan? Please also explain what OBRA will cut
due to the decrease in revenue from having fewer races.

Alpenrose Heartbreaker

Alpenrose Six Day

Alpenrose Velodrome Challenge

Alpenrose Velodrome Challenge

Alsea Falls Switchback

Baker City Cycling Classic

Baker City Cycling Classic

Baker City Gran Fondo

Barrel to Bay Gravel/Road Fondo

Bear Springs Trap

Blue Ribbon Track Omnium

BriHOP Interstellar Omnium: Saturday

BriHOP Interstellar Omnium: Sunday

Cascade Cream Puff

Chainbreaker

Coast Hills Classic MTB Race

Cooper Spur Short Track Weekend

Cooper Spur Short Track Weekend

Cooper Spur Spring XC

Desert Orthopedics Bend Don't Brake Road Race

FAT 55 Oakridge Mountain Bike Marathon

Franz Bakery Criterium

Hammer Velo Crit

High Cascades 100

High Desert Omnium: Criterium

High Desert Omnium: Road Race

High Desert Omnium: Time Trial

Holtey Law Track Omnium

Humbug Hurry Up

Lewis & Clark 12/24 Hour Time Trial

Mary's Peak Hill Climb TT

MBSEF Thrilla Cyclocross Series

MISSION: GranDuro

MISSION: RunDuro

Montinore Road Race

Mt. Ashland Hill Climb Road Vs. Mt.

Mt. Ashland Uphill Time Trial

Mt. Man Challenge: Dog River Trail Super D

Mt. Man Challenge: Mt Hood Skibowl

OBRA Elite Track Championship

OBRA Elite Track Championship

OBRA Elite Track Championship

OBRA Elite Track Championship

OBRA Masters Track Championship

OBRA Masters Track Championship

OBRA RR Champs

OBRA TT

OBRA TTT

OBRA Uphill Time Trial Championship

Ochoco Gravel Roubaix

Olympia Beer Crit

Oregon Gran Fondo

OUCH: Larch Mt Uphill Time Trial

PDW Omnium

PDX DEVO TRACK OMNIUM AND JUNIOR STATE CHAMPIONSHIP

Pickett's Charge

Return on the Jedi

Sisters Stampede

Six Hours of Mount Hood

Slabtown Criterium

Spring Thaw Mt. Bike Festival

Spring Thaw Mt. Bike Festival

The Galena Grinder 4point0

Tour de St. Honore Gran Fondo

Vancouver Criterium

Washougal XC at the MX Park Race for the Future NICA Student League
Fundraiser

Willamette Gran Fondo

Mike

*From:* Jeff Tedder [mailto:sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com]
*Sent:* Wednesday, May 11, 2016 08:30
*To:* 'Mike Murray'
*Cc:* kl_graham@comcast.net; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com; obra@list.obra.org
*Subject:* RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Well at this point, its like the homeless garbage camps in Portland….its
kind of out of control and been let go to long and to the point that how do
you fix it??

That’s a good question…..these races that change days or are new races
should not be allowed to be piled on other race days……Not just our race its
many I am sure without looking at the schedule…If you choose to change your
day then you have to fit in the schedule or not put it on….thats up to
you…..if you have a date that you have been using and then you change that
day, how is it fair to just say well I will put my race on the same day as
some else that has had that day for years….how is this benefitting anyone
in bike racing…Quality races are much better than splitting up obra members
2 or 3 ways sometimes….

So at this point I am not sure how you fix it other than saying no…if
people want to change days or add a day, just say no…..that atleast will
stop it at this point and then the rest could be worked on from there…but
continuing to allow this is not helping the problem….

And complaining about state races has nothing to do with complaining about
it effecting our race because they should never be put on the same day…. :
)

Maybe OBRA should promote all state championships? Along with help and
volunteers from all obra teams to make it a group effort…. And have the
same days each year on the schedule…and not have races piled on top of them
as well…maybe people might get interested again? who knows?

But if we have them, and they are called state championships then they
should be a big deal for people and I guess us and OBRA have to make that
happen…

Jeff

*From:* Mike Murray [mailto:mike.murray@obra.org ]
*Sent:* Wednesday, May 11, 2016 8:01 AM
*To:* Jeff Tedder
*Cc:* kl_graham@comcast.net; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com; obra@list.obra.org
*Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

So Jeff, given that there are nearly twice as many weekend races on the
schedule as there are days May through August, which half of the races
would you have OBRA say no to? How would that determination be made? Please
be specific. We know you want to cancel the race held the same day as your
race. Please tell us what other races you would have OBRA cancel to reach
your desired only one race per day schedule.

I also have to point out that there is a logical flaw in complaining about
poor attendance at OBRA championship races while simultaneously complaining
about the effect on attendance at your race.

Mike Murray

On May 11, 2016, at 07:17, Jeff Tedder
wrote:

Well to start, I would just say NO to adding races that pile on top of
other races….you either choose a date that works out in your area to not
conflict with other races or you just don’t put it on….

Again, this just creates issues every year, there is races that have been
going for years and years on the same dates, weekends etc….Why would a
promoter even want to put on a race on the same day as these races anyway??
I would not do it…If I was starting a new race or doing another race I just
would not hone in on another day that has a race in my area to conflict
with it…But that me I guess….Again this goes back to OBRA just saying no
when this comes up….the schedule should come out with all the races that
have been using the same days year after year…then people wanting to change
their day or add a new race should have to do that with understanding what
races are going on and depending on where you are in the state and if it
could overlap other races and the people that attend these races....I mean
it’s almost to the point where we should just put out days for Bid and the
highest bidder gets those days… Again as I said yesterday, More is not
always Better, Quality races that people look forward to each year is more
important to me and getting the majority of racers there to race, not
having them have to choose every weekend…..On the state race issue, looking
at the attendance at many state races in the past several years…I would
say, why bother in some cases….the effort that goes into putting on a race,
and seeing the amount of people showing up at some state races, it just
seems to me, 1… hard to call it state championship in the first place, a
lot of times it’s the city its in and becomes a city championship more than
anything….State Championships should be a huge race for everyone every
year….But again, there is so much racing that people don’t really seem to
care by the attendance record, especially when its away from the Portland
area…..So we can go back and forth on this forever, everyone has their
thoughts, but again…why choose a day that already has an established race,
your race will suffer, and it also takes away from a race that has been
on-going for years, not just our race, this happens a lot in other
races….why can’t OBRA just say no? moderate what goes on in the first
place, then juggling days with other promoters is not an issue…..just my
thoughts….

Jeff

*ent:* Tuesday, May 10, 2016 10:43 PM
*To:* Jeff Tedder
*Cc:* kl_graham@comcast.net; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com; obra@list.obra.org
*Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Once again I think everybody is underestimating the difficulty of creating
a schedule that does not have conflicts. Just look at the math:

- Between May and August there are 35 weekend days

- There are 10 days of OBRA championships that need to occur during that
period.

- There are 57 other weekend day races that people have placed on the
schedule. Most of them are established races just as the HV crit is.

- There are an unknown number of races that people might have put on but
they did not wish to compete for a date with another race.

Given the above it is inevitable that there will be days with more than one
race. Actually if things are evenly distributed there will be 1.9 races
each weekend day.

If OBRA was in the business of limiting the number of races or eliminating
any conflicts how would you propose to do that? Give championships
precedence? Eliminate championships to free up space and decrease
competition for other races? Prioritize races based on some criteria and
axe the ones that have less of those criteria? How do you deal with the
people involved in the production of the races that get eliminated?

Currently what OBRA does is facilitate communication between the people who
are putting on races. The schedule is published months ahead of time. This
allows those that can and wish to change dates to avoid conflict with
another race to do so. Many races simply cannot change dates. It is not
infrequent that people in such a bind just decide to not put on races.

I also have to point out that the number of people willing to put on OBRA
championship races is not unlimited or, actually, very large. If these
races are going to happen OBRA needs to recognize the scheduling
limitations for those people.

Mike Murray

On May 10, 2016, at 21:12, Jeff Tedder via OBRA wrote:

I have been to promoters meetings and expressed how I feel and it did no
good….it just seems to me, that the way things are allowed to run creates
competition within the people that promote races…which in my mind is not
good for racing…. If I was going to put on another race or start a new
race…I would never pick a date that already had a race for 2 reasons….. 1,
I would not want to push in someone elses date that has had an ongoing race
for years, and 2, I think there is way to much on the schedule now and
cramming races in, is not helping the attendance and any ones races….how is
that good for racing in Oregon? For whatever the reason, attendance at
state races and others is down if I recall….we have leveled off at the HV
crit the last few years, but finally got it to a point where we make a few
bucks for our efforts after 6 or 7 years….take 50 or 60 people out of the
loop and we are back to luck if we break even…..Just seems to me for all
our efforts, all promoters included you would want some kind of return to
yourself or team for all the hard work…..

Not seeing how many races we can jam into the race schedule but making less
races more quality events….The reason our race has become popular is we get
tons of prizes and primes from sponsors and beyond to the point we are
giving primes away almost every lap in some races….People love it, it’s a
fun atmosphere and and we have a lot of followers now that love the venue
and what we do… But I see many races on the schedule the past few years and
then cancelled….reason??? not sure but I would guess a lot has to do with
jamming other races onto those days and then its just not worth the
effort…..So seems like that’s where OBRA has been leading itself the past
several years…..and attendance is dropping, so I guess I put 2 and 2
together like many others that emailed me in the past 24 hours and its just
not good for racing…..

Jeff

*From:* kl_graham@comcast.net [mailto:kl_graham@comcast.net
]
*Sent:* Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:53 PM
*To:* sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
*Cc:* obra@list.obra.org; miker0629@yahoo.com
*Subject:* RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Jeff

Since this platform you want to have and you're not wanting to work
together on a solution, I wish you good luck on June 4th. This could have
been figured out 24 hours ago, so don't worry about calling.

If you're at the upcoming promoters meeting, and you want to have this
discussion face to face, I'm in. Straight conversation for a better
solution.

But I've got my 5th race to promote, a cycling team to run, and to be an
OBRA Official when needed. Other folks work hard as well, but I also feel
the calendar needs work. It's up to us though to work together to find
solutions in the interim.

Good luck in all your endeavor.

Kenny Graham

Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App

-----Original Message-----

From: sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
To: ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net,miker0629@yahoo.com,obra@list.obra.org
Sent: 2016-05-10 5:29:10 PM
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

That makes no sense to me and others…so you allow people to work their
asses off building a race over years to the point now that it’s the
favorite crit of the year for most people and then allow others to just
take that date….I don’t think so….I have put way way way to much personal
time and our teams help over the years to build this race into a great day
to have that happen…and compae attendance at said races you want to allow
to have priority….not so great….

*From:* Ron [mailto:ronfrerichs@hotmail.com ]
*Sent:* Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:24 PM
*To:* Jeff Tedder
*Cc:* Michael Richardson; kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
*Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

I completely agree with your first statement.

I suggest we allow Championship Race promoters to have first crack at the
schedule, then let other promoters work around them.

Ron

On May 10, 2016, at 4:37 PM, Jeff Tedder via OBRA
wrote:

Ya it is a worry, a state championship race should never be on the same day
as any race….and we have been putting this race on for years, finally get
to the point where we get good attendance and then this…..all this does is
create a competition between people that pit races on……….Plus we have many
many people that TT on our team and we need them to help put our race
on…..so then what ? they have to skip a state championship because people
cannot figure out that this is bad for racing,,,,stupid….

*From:* OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org ]
*On Behalf Of *Michael Richardson via OBRA
*Sent:* Tuesday, May 10, 2016 1:26 PM
*To:* kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
*Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

No worries.

Fast Twitch = crit

Slow Twitch = TT

Mike (all slow all the time myself)

On May 10, 2016, at 5:54 AM, via OBRA wrote:

We put this where there was space available and where time allowed. We have
permits and registration is open.

No trying to under cut yall - but if we go any later in the calendar year,
we run into issues with the local farmers.

I tried to email you last night about this, but your email rejected back to
me.

If you would like to talk man to man about this, please call me directly at
5419059698.

Kenny

Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App

-----Original Message-----

From: obra@list.obra.org
To: bike-cyclisme@yahoogroups.com,jfbenenate@yahoo.com,
lauradela67@icloud.com,obra@list.obra.org,sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
Cc:
Sent: 2016-05-09 11:57:11 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Ya and the Hammer Velo Crit is on June 4th, first and biggest crit of the
year…Why they piled a satate championship race on top of our long standing
race is beyond me…

But ya’ll know its always a good one, with toms of prizes and primes..and
always sunny : )

See ya, Jeff

Hammer Velo

*From:* OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org ]
*On Behalf Of *John Benenate via OBRA
*Sent:* Monday, May 9, 2016 4:16 PM
*To:* OBRA List; yahoogroups; Laura Delahoussaye
*Subject:* [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Just checkin'

The TTT Champ is May 21st?

and the TT Champ is June 4th?

Thanks,

jb

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Mike Murray

Who is this OBRA that you want to take over the races and put them on? OBRA
is just the membership of OBRA. That is who is putting on these races
currently. There is no group of helpful elves waiting in the wings to put
on races. OBRA championship races are often put on the schedule later as it
is a challenge to find people willing to put them on.

Mike

*From:* Mat Braun [mailto:matbraun@gmail.com]
*Sent:* Wednesday, May 11, 2016 08:38
*To:* Mike Murray
*Cc:* Jeff Tedder; obra@list.obra.org
*Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Mike,

I have to be honest it doesn't seem like an impossible task to organize the
calendar such that events work better together. It certainly doesn't seem
fair to put it on Jeff to manage this task. If state championships are so
important why are they typically left to the last minute, some years even
in danger of not happening. Has OBRA ever taken over these events and
promoted them?

Good luck to both Jeff and Kenny, it does seem that OBRA should step in and
if nothing else help facilitate their dialogue.

-Mat

On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 8:00 AM, Mike Murray via OBRA
wrote:

So Jeff, given that there are nearly twice as many weekend races on the
schedule as there are days May through August, which half of the races
would you have OBRA say no to? How would that determination be made? Please
be specific. We know you want to cancel the race held the same day as your
race. Please tell us what other races you would have OBRA cancel to reach
your desired only one race per day schedule.

I also have to point out that there is a logical flaw in complaining about
poor attendance at OBRA championship races while simultaneously complaining
about the effect on attendance at your race.

Mike Murray

On May 11, 2016, at 07:17, Jeff Tedder
wrote:

Well to start, I would just say NO to adding races that pile on top of
other races….you either choose a date that works out in your area to not
conflict with other races or you just don’t put it on….

Again, this just creates issues every year, there is races that have been
going for years and years on the same dates, weekends etc….Why would a
promoter even want to put on a race on the same day as these races anyway??
I would not do it…If I was starting a new race or doing another race I just
would not hone in on another day that has a race in my area to conflict
with it…But that me I guess….Again this goes back to OBRA just saying no
when this comes up….the schedule should come out with all the races that
have been using the same days year after year…then people wanting to change
their day or add a new race should have to do that with understanding what
races are going on and depending on where you are in the state and if it
could overlap other races and the people that attend these races....I mean
it’s almost to the point where we should just put out days for Bid and the
highest bidder gets those days… Again as I said yesterday, More is not
always Better, Quality races that people look forward to each year is more
important to me and getting the majority of racers there to race, not
having them have to choose every weekend…..On the state race issue, looking
at the attendance at many state races in the past several years…I would
say, why bother in some cases….the effort that goes into putting on a race,
and seeing the amount of people showing up at some state races, it just
seems to me, 1… hard to call it state championship in the first place, a
lot of times it’s the city its in and becomes a city championship more than
anything….State Championships should be a huge race for everyone every
year….But again, there is so much racing that people don’t really seem to
care by the attendance record, especially when its away from the Portland
area…..So we can go back and forth on this forever, everyone has their
thoughts, but again…why choose a day that already has an established race,
your race will suffer, and it also takes away from a race that has been
on-going for years, not just our race, this happens a lot in other
races….why can’t OBRA just say no? moderate what goes on in the first
place, then juggling days with other promoters is not an issue…..just my
thoughts….

Jeff

*ent:* Tuesday, May 10, 2016 10:43 PM
*To:* Jeff Tedder
*Cc:* kl_graham@comcast.net; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com; obra@list.obra.org
*Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Once again I think everybody is underestimating the difficulty of creating
a schedule that does not have conflicts. Just look at the math:

- Between May and August there are 35 weekend days

- There are 10 days of OBRA championships that need to occur during that
period.

- There are 57 other weekend day races that people have placed on the
schedule. Most of them are established races just as the HV crit is.

- There are an unknown number of races that people might have put on but
they did not wish to compete for a date with another race.

Given the above it is inevitable that there will be days with more than one
race. Actually if things are evenly distributed there will be 1.9 races
each weekend day.

If OBRA was in the business of limiting the number of races or eliminating
any conflicts how would you propose to do that? Give championships
precedence? Eliminate championships to free up space and decrease
competition for other races? Prioritize races based on some criteria and
axe the ones that have less of those criteria? How do you deal with the
people involved in the production of the races that get eliminated?

Currently what OBRA does is facilitate communication between the people who
are putting on races. The schedule is published months ahead of time. This
allows those that can and wish to change dates to avoid conflict with
another race to do so. Many races simply cannot change dates. It is not
infrequent that people in such a bind just decide to not put on races.

I also have to point out that the number of people willing to put on OBRA
championship races is not unlimited or, actually, very large. If these
races are going to happen OBRA needs to recognize the scheduling
limitations for those people.

Mike Murray

On May 10, 2016, at 21:12, Jeff Tedder via OBRA wrote:

I have been to promoters meetings and expressed how I feel and it did no
good….it just seems to me, that the way things are allowed to run creates
competition within the people that promote races…which in my mind is not
good for racing…. If I was going to put on another race or start a new
race…I would never pick a date that already had a race for 2 reasons….. 1,
I would not want to push in someone elses date that has had an ongoing race
for years, and 2, I think there is way to much on the schedule now and
cramming races in, is not helping the attendance and any ones races….how is
that good for racing in Oregon? For whatever the reason, attendance at
state races and others is down if I recall….we have leveled off at the HV
crit the last few years, but finally got it to a point where we make a few
bucks for our efforts after 6 or 7 years….take 50 or 60 people out of the
loop and we are back to luck if we break even…..Just seems to me for all
our efforts, all promoters included you would want some kind of return to
yourself or team for all the hard work…..

Not seeing how many races we can jam into the race schedule but making less
races more quality events….The reason our race has become popular is we get
tons of prizes and primes from sponsors and beyond to the point we are
giving primes away almost every lap in some races….People love it, it’s a
fun atmosphere and and we have a lot of followers now that love the venue
and what we do… But I see many races on the schedule the past few years and
then cancelled….reason??? not sure but I would guess a lot has to do with
jamming other races onto those days and then its just not worth the
effort…..So seems like that’s where OBRA has been leading itself the past
several years…..and attendance is dropping, so I guess I put 2 and 2
together like many others that emailed me in the past 24 hours and its just
not good for racing…..

Jeff

*From:* kl_graham@comcast.net [mailto:kl_graham@comcast.net
]
*Sent:* Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:53 PM
*To:* sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
*Cc:* obra@list.obra.org; miker0629@yahoo.com
*Subject:* RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Jeff

Since this platform you want to have and you're not wanting to work
together on a solution, I wish you good luck on June 4th. This could have
been figured out 24 hours ago, so don't worry about calling.

If you're at the upcoming promoters meeting, and you want to have this
discussion face to face, I'm in. Straight conversation for a better
solution.

But I've got my 5th race to promote, a cycling team to run, and to be an
OBRA Official when needed. Other folks work hard as well, but I also feel
the calendar needs work. It's up to us though to work together to find
solutions in the interim.

Good luck in all your endeavor.

Kenny Graham

Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App

-----Original Message-----

From: sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
To: ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net,miker0629@yahoo.com,obra@list.obra.org
Sent: 2016-05-10 5:29:10 PM
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

That makes no sense to me and others…so you allow people to work their
asses off building a race over years to the point now that it’s the
favorite crit of the year for most people and then allow others to just
take that date….I don’t think so….I have put way way way to much personal
time and our teams help over the years to build this race into a great day
to have that happen…and compae attendance at said races you want to allow
to have priority….not so great….

*From:* Ron [mailto:ronfrerichs@hotmail.com ]
*Sent:* Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:24 PM
*To:* Jeff Tedder
*Cc:* Michael Richardson; kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
*Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

I completely agree with your first statement.

I suggest we allow Championship Race promoters to have first crack at the
schedule, then let other promoters work around them.

Ron

On May 10, 2016, at 4:37 PM, Jeff Tedder via OBRA
wrote:

Ya it is a worry, a state championship race should never be on the same day
as any race….and we have been putting this race on for years, finally get
to the point where we get good attendance and then this…..all this does is
create a competition between people that pit races on……….Plus we have many
many people that TT on our team and we need them to help put our race
on…..so then what ? they have to skip a state championship because people
cannot figure out that this is bad for racing,,,,stupid….

*From:* OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org ]
*On Behalf Of *Michael Richardson via OBRA
*Sent:* Tuesday, May 10, 2016 1:26 PM
*To:* kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
*Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

No worries.

Fast Twitch = crit

Slow Twitch = TT

Mike (all slow all the time myself)

On May 10, 2016, at 5:54 AM, via OBRA wrote:

We put this where there was space available and where time allowed. We have
permits and registration is open.

No trying to under cut yall - but if we go any later in the calendar year,
we run into issues with the local farmers.

I tried to email you last night about this, but your email rejected back to
me.

If you would like to talk man to man about this, please call me directly at
5419059698.

Kenny

Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App

-----Original Message-----

From: obra@list.obra.org
To: bike-cyclisme@yahoogroups.com,jfbenenate@yahoo.com,
lauradela67@icloud.com,obra@list.obra.org,sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
Cc:
Sent: 2016-05-09 11:57:11 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Ya and the Hammer Velo Crit is on June 4th, first and biggest crit of the
year…Why they piled a satate championship race on top of our long standing
race is beyond me…

But ya’ll know its always a good one, with toms of prizes and primes..and
always sunny : )

See ya, Jeff

Hammer Velo

*From:* OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org ]
*On Behalf Of *John Benenate via OBRA
*Sent:* Monday, May 9, 2016 4:16 PM
*To:* OBRA List; yahoogroups; Laura Delahoussaye
*Subject:* [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Just checkin'

The TTT Champ is May 21st?

and the TT Champ is June 4th?

Thanks,

jb

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Jeff Tedder

Well we all have our opinions on limiting races….more is not better….I think the attendance record of OBRA is maybe proving that slowly and all the races that get cancelled….

So I will put my efforts into our race at this time, we have great support each year for our race and the team….and we are looking forward to it as we do every year…

See ya

From: Robert [mailto:robert@rpcsystems.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 9:29 AM
To: Jeff Tedder; 'Jeff Tedder via OBRA'; 'Mike Murray'
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

So if I have an established construction company, do I tell the CCB not license any more companies because it might take from my customers? That obviously doesn't make sense, and neither does your point of limiting races.

OBRA is a sanctioning body just like USA Cycling. USAC doesn't promote races either. All the national events are promoted by an experienced race promoter.

On May 11, 2016 9:20:57 AM PDT, Jeff Tedder wrote:

Attendance is not down at our race, so no fault at all….but you start piling other races on top of that day and I am sure we will loose people…that’s the point of this whole string….

And why cannot OBRA promote its own state championships along with the help of teams?

From: Robert [mailto:robert@rpcsystems.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 9:09 AM
To: Jeff Tedder; Jeff Tedder via OBRA; 'Mike Murray'
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Jeff, you are missing a couple important points.

First, OBRA is the sanctioning body - not the promoter. They, just like USA Cycling, don't dictate the schedule. They just sell the promoter "sanctioning".

Second, if attendance is down at your race, it is typically your fault. Let me ask you this ... how much promoting had been done? Because you put it on the schedule doesn't mean people will come. How many emails to this list have been sent out in the last three months? How many Facebook posts? How many tweets? How many fliers printed?

If I start a construction company, and I don't have enough customers, should I promote my business, of have half the other construction companies in the area shut down? Obviously the answer is promote - as I have done for the last 20 years for my own business.

Robert

On May 11, 2016 8:29:51 AM PDT, Jeff Tedder via OBRA wrote:

Well at this point, its like the homeless garbage camps in Portland….its kind of out of control and been let go to long and to the point that how do you fix it??

That’s a good question…..these races that change days or are new races should not be allowed to be piled on other race days……Not just our race its many I am sure without looking at the schedule…If you choose to change your day then you have to fit in the schedule or not put it on….thats up to you…..if you have a date that you have been using and then you change that day, how is it fair to just say well I will put my race on the same day as some else that has had that day for years….how is this benefitting anyone in bike racing…Quality races are much better than splitting up obra members 2 or 3 ways sometimes….

So at this point I am not sure how you fix it other than saying no…if people want to change days or add a day, just say no…..that atleast will stop it at this point and then the rest could be worked on from there…but continuing to allow this is not helping the problem….

And complaining about state races has nothing to do with complaining about it effecting our race because they should never be put on the same day…. : )

Maybe OBRA should promote all state championships? Along with help and volunteers from all obra teams to make it a group effort…. And have the same days each year on the schedule…and not have races piled on top of them as well…maybe people might get interested again? who knows?

But if we have them, and they are called state championships then they should be a big deal for people and I guess us and OBRA have to make that happen…

Jeff

From: Mike Murray [mailto:mike.murray@obra.org]
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 8:01 AM
To: Jeff Tedder
Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

So Jeff, given that there are nearly twice as many weekend races on the schedule as there are days May through August, which half of the races would you have OBRA say no to? How would that determination be made? Please be specific. We know you want to cancel the race held the same day as your race. Please tell us what other races you would have OBRA cancel to reach your desired only one race per day schedule.

I also have to point out that there is a logical flaw in complaining about poor attendance at OBRA championship races while simultaneously complaining about the effect on attendance at your race.

Mike Murray

On May 11, 2016, at 07:17, Jeff Tedder wrote:

Well to start, I would just say NO to adding races that pile on top of other races….you either choose a date that works out in your area to not conflict with other races or you just don’t put it on….

Again, this just creates issues every year, there is races that have been going for years and years on the same dates, weekends etc….Why would a promoter even want to put on a race on the same day as these races anyway?? I would not do it…If I was starting a new race or doing another race I just would not hone in on another day that has a race in my area to conflict with it…But that me I guess….Again this goes back to OBRA just saying no when this comes up….the schedule should come out with all the races that have been using the same days year after year…then people wanting to change their day or add a new race should have to do that with understanding what races are going on and depending on where you are in the state and if it could overlap other races and the people that attend these races....I mean it’s almost to the point where we should just put out days for Bid and the highest bidder gets those days… Again as I said yesterday, More is not always Better, Quality races that people look forward to each year is more important to me and getting the majority of racers there to race, not having them have to choose every weekend…..On the state race issue, looking at the attendance at many state races in the past several years…I would say, why bother in some cases….the effort that goes into putting on a race, and seeing the amount of people showing up at some state races, it just seems to me, 1… hard to call it state championship in the first place, a lot of times it’s the city its in and becomes a city championship more than anything….State Championships should be a huge race for everyone every year….But again, there is so much racing that people don’t really seem to care by the attendance record, especially when its away from the Portland area…..So we can go back and forth on this forever, everyone has their thoughts, but again…why choose a day that already has an established race, your race will suffer, and it also takes away from a race that has been on-going for years, not just our race, this happens a lot in other races….why can’t OBRA just say no? moderate what goes on in the first place, then juggling days with other promoters is not an issue…..just my thoughts….

Jeff

ent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 10:43 PM
To: Jeff Tedder
Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Once again I think everybody is underestimating the difficulty of creating a schedule that does not have conflicts. Just look at the math:

- Between May and August there are 35 weekend days

- There are 10 days of OBRA championships that need to occur during that period.

- There are 57 other weekend day races that people have placed on the schedule. Most of them are established races just as the HV crit is.

- There are an unknown number of races that people might have put on but they did not wish to compete for a date with another race.

Given the above it is inevitable that there will be days with more than one race. Actually if things are evenly distributed there will be 1.9 races each weekend day.

If OBRA was in the business of limiting the number of races or eliminating any conflicts how would you propose to do that? Give championships precedence? Eliminate championships to free up space and decrease competition for other races? Prioritize races based on some criteria and axe the ones that have less of those criteria? How do you deal with the people involved in the production of the races that get eliminated?

Currently what OBRA does is facilitate communication between the people who are putting on races. The schedule is published months ahead of time. This allows those that can and wish to change dates to avoid conflict with another race to do so. Many races simply cannot change dates. It is not infrequent that people in such a bind just decide to not put on races.

I also have to point out that the number of people willing to put on OBRA championship races is not unlimited or, actually, very large. If these races are going to happen OBRA needs to recognize the scheduling limitations for those people.

Mike Murray

On May 10, 2016, at 21:12, Jeff Tedder via OBRA wrote:

I have been to promoters meetings and expressed how I feel and it did no good….it just seems to me, that the way things are allowed to run creates competition within the people that promote races…which in my mind is not good for racing…. If I was going to put on another race or start a new race…I would never pick a date that already had a race for 2 reasons….. 1, I would not want to push in someone elses date that has had an ongoing race for years, and 2, I think there is way to much on the schedule now and cramming races in, is not helping the attendance and any ones races….how is that good for racing in Oregon? For whatever the reason, attendance at state races and others is down if I recall….we have leveled off at the HV crit the last few years, but finally got it to a point where we make a few bucks for our efforts after 6 or 7 years….take 50 or 60 people out of the loop and we are back to luck if we break even…..Just seems to me for all our efforts, all promoters included you would want some kind of return to yourself or team for all the hard work…..

Not seeing how many races we can jam into the race schedule but making less races more quality events….The reason our race has become popular is we get tons of prizes and primes from sponsors and beyond to the point we are giving primes away almost every lap in some races….People love it, it’s a fun atmosphere and and we have a lot of followers now that love the venue and what we do… But I see many races on the schedule the past few years and then cancelled….reason??? not sure but I would guess a lot has to do with jamming other races onto those days and then its just not worth the effort…..So seems like that’s where OBRA has been leading itself the past several years…..and attendance is dropping, so I guess I put 2 and 2 together like many others that emailed me in the past 24 hours and its just not good for racing…..

Jeff

From: kl_graham@comcast.net [mailto:kl_graham@comcast.net]
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:53 PM
To: sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
Cc: obra@list.obra.org; miker0629@yahoo.com
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Jeff

Since this platform you want to have and you're not wanting to work together on a solution, I wish you good luck on June 4th. This could have been figured out 24 hours ago, so don't worry about calling.

If you're at the upcoming promoters meeting, and you want to have this discussion face to face, I'm in. Straight conversation for a better solution.

But I've got my 5th race to promote, a cycling team to run, and to be an OBRA Official when needed. Other folks work hard as well, but I also feel the calendar needs work. It's up to us though to work together to find solutions in the interim.

Good luck in all your endeavor.

Kenny Graham

Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App

-----Original Message-----

From: sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
To: ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net,miker0629@yahoo.com,obra@list.obra.org
Sent: 2016-05-10 5:29:10 PM
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

That makes no sense to me and others…so you allow people to work their asses off building a race over years to the point now that it’s the favorite crit of the year for most people and then allow others to just take that date….I don’t think so….I have put way way way to much personal time and our teams help over the years to build this race into a great day to have that happen…and compae attendance at said races you want to allow to have priority….not so great….

From: Ron [mailto:ronfrerichs@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:24 PM
To: Jeff Tedder
Cc: Michael Richardson; kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

I completely agree with your first statement.

I suggest we allow Championship Race promoters to have first crack at the schedule, then let other promoters work around them.

Ron

On May 10, 2016, at 4:37 PM, Jeff Tedder via OBRA wrote:

Ya it is a worry, a state championship race should never be on the same day as any race….and we have been putting this race on for years, finally get to the point where we get good attendance and then this…..all this does is create a competition between people that pit races on……….Plus we have many many people that TT on our team and we need them to help put our race on…..so then what ? they have to skip a state championship because people cannot figure out that this is bad for racing,,,,stupid….

From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Michael Richardson via OBRA
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 1:26 PM
To: kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

No worries.

Fast Twitch = crit

Slow Twitch = TT

Mike (all slow all the time myself)

On May 10, 2016, at 5:54 AM, via OBRA wrote:

We put this where there was space available and where time allowed. We have permits and registration is open.

No trying to under cut yall - but if we go any later in the calendar year, we run into issues with the local farmers.

I tried to email you last night about this, but your email rejected back to me.

If you would like to talk man to man about this, please call me directly at 5419059698.

Kenny

Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App

-----Original Message-----

From: obra@list.obra.org
To: bike-cyclisme@yahoogroups.com,jfbenenate@yahoo.com,lauradela67@icloud.com,obra@list.obra.org,sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
Cc:
Sent: 2016-05-09 11:57:11 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Ya and the Hammer Velo Crit is on June 4th, first and biggest crit of the year…Why they piled a satate championship race on top of our long standing race is beyond me…

But ya’ll know its always a good one, with toms of prizes and primes..and always sunny : )

See ya, Jeff

Hammer Velo

From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of John Benenate via OBRA
Sent: Monday, May 9, 2016 4:16 PM
To: OBRA List; yahoogroups; Laura Delahoussaye
Subject: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Just checkin'

The TTT Champ is May 21st?

and the TT Champ is June 4th?

Thanks,

jb

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_____

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--
>^•.•^<

Robert

So if I have an established construction company, do I tell the CCB not license any more companies because it might take from my customers? That obviously doesn't make sense, and neither does your point of limiting races.

OBRA is a sanctioning body just like USA Cycling. USAC doesn't promote races either. All the national events are promoted by an experienced race promoter.

On May 11, 2016 9:20:57 AM PDT, Jeff Tedder wrote:
>Attendance is not down at our race, so no fault at all….but you start
>piling other races on top of that day and I am sure we will loose
>people…that’s the point of this whole string….
>
>
>
>And why cannot OBRA promote its own state championships along with the
>help of teams?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>From: Robert [mailto:robert@rpcsystems.com]
>Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 9:09 AM
>To: Jeff Tedder; Jeff Tedder via OBRA; 'Mike Murray'
>Cc: obra@list.obra.org
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>
>
>
>Jeff, you are missing a couple important points.
>
>First, OBRA is the sanctioning body - not the promoter. They, just like
>USA Cycling, don't dictate the schedule. They just sell the promoter
>"sanctioning".
>
>Second, if attendance is down at your race, it is typically your fault.
>Let me ask you this ... how much promoting had been done? Because you
>put it on the schedule doesn't mean people will come. How many emails
>to this list have been sent out in the last three months? How many
>Facebook posts? How many tweets? How many fliers printed?
>
>If I start a construction company, and I don't have enough customers,
>should I promote my business, of have half the other construction
>companies in the area shut down? Obviously the answer is promote - as I
>have done for the last 20 years for my own business.
>
>Robert
>
>On May 11, 2016 8:29:51 AM PDT, Jeff Tedder via OBRA
> wrote:
>
>Well at this point, its like the homeless garbage camps in
>Portland….its kind of out of control and been let go to long and to the
>point that how do you fix it??
>
>That’s a good question…..these races that change days or are new races
>should not be allowed to be piled on other race days……Not just our race
>its many I am sure without looking at the schedule…If you choose to
>change your day then you have to fit in the schedule or not put it
>on….thats up to you…..if you have a date that you have been using and
>then you change that day, how is it fair to just say well I will put my
>race on the same day as some else that has had that day for years….how
>is this benefitting anyone in bike racing…Quality races are much better
>than splitting up obra members 2 or 3 ways sometimes….
>
>So at this point I am not sure how you fix it other than saying no…if
>people want to change days or add a day, just say no…..that atleast
>will stop it at this point and then the rest could be worked on from
>there…but continuing to allow this is not helping the problem….
>
>And complaining about state races has nothing to do with complaining
>about it effecting our race because they should never be put on the
>same day…. : )
>
>Maybe OBRA should promote all state championships? Along with help and
>volunteers from all obra teams to make it a group effort…. And have the
>same days each year on the schedule…and not have races piled on top of
>them as well…maybe people might get interested again? who knows?
>
>But if we have them, and they are called state championships then they
>should be a big deal for people and I guess us and OBRA have to make
>that happen…
>
>
>
>Jeff
>
>
>
>From: Mike Murray [mailto:mike.murray@obra.org]
>Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 8:01 AM
>To: Jeff Tedder
>Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com; obra@list.obra.org
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>
>
>
>So Jeff, given that there are nearly twice as many weekend races on the
>schedule as there are days May through August, which half of the races
>would you have OBRA say no to? How would that determination be made?
>Please be specific. We know you want to cancel the race held the same
>day as your race. Please tell us what other races you would have OBRA
>cancel to reach your desired only one race per day schedule.
>
>
>
>I also have to point out that there is a logical flaw in complaining
>about poor attendance at OBRA championship races while simultaneously
>complaining about the effect on attendance at your race.
>
>Mike Murray
>
>
>On May 11, 2016, at 07:17, Jeff Tedder
>wrote:
>
>Well to start, I would just say NO to adding races that pile on top of
>other races….you either choose a date that works out in your area to
>not conflict with other races or you just don’t put it on….
>
>Again, this just creates issues every year, there is races that have
>been going for years and years on the same dates, weekends etc….Why
>would a promoter even want to put on a race on the same day as these
>races anyway?? I would not do it…If I was starting a new race or doing
>another race I just would not hone in on another day that has a race in
>my area to conflict with it…But that me I guess….Again this goes back
>to OBRA just saying no when this comes up….the schedule should come out
>with all the races that have been using the same days year after
>year…then people wanting to change their day or add a new race should
>have to do that with understanding what races are going on and
>depending on where you are in the state and if it could overlap other
>races and the people that attend these races....I mean it’s almost to
>the point where we should just put out days for Bid and the highest
>bidder gets those days… Again as I said yesterday, More is not always
>Better, Quality races that people look forward to each year is more
>important to me and getting the majority of racers there to race, not
>having them have to choose every weekend…..On the state race issue,
>looking at the attendance at many state races in the past several
>years…I would say, why bother in some cases….the effort that goes into
>putting on a race, and seeing the amount of people showing up at some
>state races, it just seems to me, 1… hard to call it state
>championship in the first place, a lot of times it’s the city its in
>and becomes a city championship more than anything….State Championships
>should be a huge race for everyone every year….But again, there is so
>much racing that people don’t really seem to care by the attendance
>record, especially when its away from the Portland area…..So we can go
>back and forth on this forever, everyone has their thoughts, but
>again…why choose a day that already has an established race, your race
>will suffer, and it also takes away from a race that has been on-going
>for years, not just our race, this happens a lot in other races….why
>can’t OBRA just say no? moderate what goes on in the first place, then
>juggling days with other promoters is not an issue…..just my thoughts….
>
>
>
>Jeff
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>ent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 10:43 PM
>To: Jeff Tedder
>Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com; obra@list.obra.org
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>
>
>
>Once again I think everybody is underestimating the difficulty of
>creating a schedule that does not have conflicts. Just look at the
>math:
>
>
>
>- Between May and August there are 35 weekend days
>
>- There are 10 days of OBRA championships that need to occur during
>that period.
>
>- There are 57 other weekend day races that people have placed on the
>schedule. Most of them are established races just as the HV crit is.
>
>- There are an unknown number of races that people might have put on
>but they did not wish to compete for a date with another race.
>
>
>
>Given the above it is inevitable that there will be days with more than
>one race. Actually if things are evenly distributed there will be 1.9
>races each weekend day.
>
>
>
>If OBRA was in the business of limiting the number of races or
>eliminating any conflicts how would you propose to do that? Give
>championships precedence? Eliminate championships to free up space and
>decrease competition for other races? Prioritize races based on some
>criteria and axe the ones that have less of those criteria? How do you
>deal with the people involved in the production of the races that get
>eliminated?
>
>
>
>Currently what OBRA does is facilitate communication between the people
>who are putting on races. The schedule is published months ahead of
>time. This allows those that can and wish to change dates to avoid
>conflict with another race to do so. Many races simply cannot change
>dates. It is not infrequent that people in such a bind just decide to
>not put on races.
>
>
>
>I also have to point out that the number of people willing to put on
>OBRA championship races is not unlimited or, actually, very large. If
>these races are going to happen OBRA needs to recognize the scheduling
>limitations for those people.
>
>
>Mike Murray
>
>
>On May 10, 2016, at 21:12, Jeff Tedder via OBRA
>wrote:
>
>I have been to promoters meetings and expressed how I feel and it did
>no good….it just seems to me, that the way things are allowed to run
>creates competition within the people that promote races…which in my
>mind is not good for racing…. If I was going to put on another race or
>start a new race…I would never pick a date that already had a race for
>2 reasons….. 1, I would not want to push in someone elses date that has
>had an ongoing race for years, and 2, I think there is way to much on
>the schedule now and cramming races in, is not helping the attendance
>and any ones races….how is that good for racing in Oregon? For
>whatever the reason, attendance at state races and others is down if I
>recall….we have leveled off at the HV crit the last few years, but
>finally got it to a point where we make a few bucks for our efforts
>after 6 or 7 years….take 50 or 60 people out of the loop and we are
>back to luck if we break even…..Just seems to me for all our efforts,
>all promoters included you would want some kind of return to yourself
>or team for all the hard work…..
>
>Not seeing how many races we can jam into the race schedule but making
>less races more quality events….The reason our race has become popular
>is we get tons of prizes and primes from sponsors and beyond to the
>point we are giving primes away almost every lap in some races….People
>love it, it’s a fun atmosphere and and we have a lot of followers now
>that love the venue and what we do… But I see many races on the
>schedule the past few years and then cancelled….reason??? not sure but
>I would guess a lot has to do with jamming other races onto those days
>and then its just not worth the effort…..So seems like that’s where
>OBRA has been leading itself the past several years…..and attendance is
>dropping, so I guess I put 2 and 2 together like many others that
>emailed me in the past 24 hours and its just not good for racing…..
>
>
>
>Jeff
>
>From: kl_graham@comcast.net [mailto:kl_graham@comcast.net]
>Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:53 PM
>To: sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
>Cc: obra@list.obra.org; miker0629@yahoo.com
>Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>
>
>
>Jeff
>
>Since this platform you want to have and you're not wanting to work
>together on a solution, I wish you good luck on June 4th. This could
>have been figured out 24 hours ago, so don't worry about calling.
>
>If you're at the upcoming promoters meeting, and you want to have this
>discussion face to face, I'm in. Straight conversation for a better
>solution.
>
>But I've got my 5th race to promote, a cycling team to run, and to be
>an OBRA Official when needed. Other folks work hard as well, but I also
>feel the calendar needs work. It's up to us though to work together to
>find solutions in the interim.
>
>Good luck in all your endeavor.
>
>
>
>Kenny Graham
>
>
>
>Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>
>From: sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
>To: ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
>Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net,miker0629@yahoo.com,obra@list.obra.org
>Sent: 2016-05-10 5:29:10 PM
>Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>
>That makes no sense to me and others…so you allow people to work their
>asses off building a race over years to the point now that it’s the
>favorite crit of the year for most people and then allow others to just
>take that date….I don’t think so….I have put way way way to much
>personal time and our teams help over the years to build this race into
>a great day to have that happen…and compae attendance at said races you
>want to allow to have priority….not so great….
>
>
>
>From: Ron [mailto:ronfrerichs@hotmail.com]
>Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:24 PM
>To: Jeff Tedder
>Cc: Michael Richardson; kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>
>
>
>I completely agree with your first statement.
>
>
>
>I suggest we allow Championship Race promoters to have first crack at
>the schedule, then let other promoters work around them.
>
>
>
>Ron
>
>
>On May 10, 2016, at 4:37 PM, Jeff Tedder via OBRA
>wrote:
>
>Ya it is a worry, a state championship race should never be on the same
>day as any race….and we have been putting this race on for years,
>finally get to the point where we get good attendance and then
>this…..all this does is create a competition between people that pit
>races on……….Plus we have many many people that TT on our team and we
>need them to help put our race on…..so then what ? they have to skip a
>state championship because people cannot figure out that this is bad
>for racing,,,,stupid….
>
>From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Michael
>Richardson via OBRA
>Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 1:26 PM
>To: kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>
>
>
>No worries.
>
>
>
>Fast Twitch = crit
>
>Slow Twitch = TT
>
>
>Mike (all slow all the time myself)
>
>
>On May 10, 2016, at 5:54 AM, via OBRA wrote:
>
>We put this where there was space available and where time allowed. We
>have permits and registration is open.
>
>No trying to under cut yall - but if we go any later in the calendar
>year, we run into issues with the local farmers.
>
>I tried to email you last night about this, but your email rejected
>back to me.
>
>If you would like to talk man to man about this, please call me
>directly at 5419059698.
>
>Kenny
>
>Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>
>From: obra@list.obra.org
>To:
>bike-cyclisme@yahoogroups.com,jfbenenate@yahoo.com,lauradela67@icloud.com,obra@list.obra.org,sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
>Cc:
>Sent: 2016-05-09 11:57:11 PM
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>
>
>
>Ya and the Hammer Velo Crit is on June 4th, first and biggest crit of
>the year…Why they piled a satate championship race on top of our long
>standing race is beyond me…
>
>But ya’ll know its always a good one, with toms of prizes and
>primes..and always sunny : )
>
>
>
>See ya, Jeff
>
>Hammer Velo
>
>
>
>From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of John
>Benenate via OBRA
>Sent: Monday, May 9, 2016 4:16 PM
>To: OBRA List; yahoogroups; Laura Delahoussaye
>Subject: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>
>
>
>Just checkin'
>
>The TTT Champ is May 21st?
>
>and the TT Champ is June 4th?
>
>Thanks,
>
>jb
>
>_______________________________________________ OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _____
>
>
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>--
>>^•.•^<

--
>^•.•^<

Jeff Tedder

Attendance is not down at our race, so no fault at all….but you start piling other races on top of that day and I am sure we will loose people…that’s the point of this whole string….

And why cannot OBRA promote its own state championships along with the help of teams?

From: Robert [mailto:robert@rpcsystems.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 9:09 AM
To: Jeff Tedder; Jeff Tedder via OBRA; 'Mike Murray'
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Jeff, you are missing a couple important points.

First, OBRA is the sanctioning body - not the promoter. They, just like USA Cycling, don't dictate the schedule. They just sell the promoter "sanctioning".

Second, if attendance is down at your race, it is typically your fault. Let me ask you this ... how much promoting had been done? Because you put it on the schedule doesn't mean people will come. How many emails to this list have been sent out in the last three months? How many Facebook posts? How many tweets? How many fliers printed?

If I start a construction company, and I don't have enough customers, should I promote my business, of have half the other construction companies in the area shut down? Obviously the answer is promote - as I have done for the last 20 years for my own business.

Robert

On May 11, 2016 8:29:51 AM PDT, Jeff Tedder via OBRA wrote:

Well at this point, its like the homeless garbage camps in Portland….its kind of out of control and been let go to long and to the point that how do you fix it??

That’s a good question…..these races that change days or are new races should not be allowed to be piled on other race days……Not just our race its many I am sure without looking at the schedule…If you choose to change your day then you have to fit in the schedule or not put it on….thats up to you…..if you have a date that you have been using and then you change that day, how is it fair to just say well I will put my race on the same day as some else that has had that day for years….how is this benefitting anyone in bike racing…Quality races are much better than splitting up obra members 2 or 3 ways sometimes….

So at this point I am not sure how you fix it other than saying no…if people want to change days or add a day, just say no…..that atleast will stop it at this point and then the rest could be worked on from there…but continuing to allow this is not helping the problem….

And complaining about state races has nothing to do with complaining about it effecting our race because they should never be put on the same day…. : )

Maybe OBRA should promote all state championships? Along with help and volunteers from all obra teams to make it a group effort…. And have the same days each year on the schedule…and not have races piled on top of them as well…maybe people might get interested again? who knows?

But if we have them, and they are called state championships then they should be a big deal for people and I guess us and OBRA have to make that happen…

Jeff

From: Mike Murray [mailto:mike.murray@obra.org]
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 8:01 AM
To: Jeff Tedder
Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

So Jeff, given that there are nearly twice as many weekend races on the schedule as there are days May through August, which half of the races would you have OBRA say no to? How would that determination be made? Please be specific. We know you want to cancel the race held the same day as your race. Please tell us what other races you would have OBRA cancel to reach your desired only one race per day schedule.

I also have to point out that there is a logical flaw in complaining about poor attendance at OBRA championship races while simultaneously complaining about the effect on attendance at your race.

Mike Murray

On May 11, 2016, at 07:17, Jeff Tedder wrote:

Well to start, I would just say NO to adding races that pile on top of other races….you either choose a date that works out in your area to not conflict with other races or you just don’t put it on….

Again, this just creates issues every year, there is races that have been going for years and years on the same dates, weekends etc….Why would a promoter even want to put on a race on the same day as these races anyway?? I would not do it…If I was starting a new race or doing another race I just would not hone in on another day that has a race in my area to conflict with it…But that me I guess….Again this goes back to OBRA just saying no when this comes up….the schedule should come out with all the races that have been using the same days year after year…then people wanting to change their day or add a new race should have to do that with understanding what races are going on and depending on where you are in the state and if it could overlap other races and the people that attend these races....I mean it’s almost to the point where we should just put out days for Bid and the highest bidder gets those days… Again as I said yesterday, More is not always Better, Quality races that people look forward to each year is more important to me and getting the majority of racers there to race, not having them have to choose every weekend…..On the state race issue, looking at the attendance at many state races in the past several years…I would say, why bother in some cases….the effort that goes into putting on a race, and seeing the amount of people showing up at some state races, it just seems to me, 1… hard to call it state championship in the first place, a lot of times it’s the city its in and becomes a city championship more than anything….State Championships should be a huge race for everyone every year….But again, there is so much racing that people don’t really seem to care by the attendance record, especially when its away from the Portland area…..So we can go back and forth on this forever, everyone has their thoughts, but again…why choose a day that already has an established race, your race will suffer, and it also takes away from a race that has been on-going for years, not just our race, this happens a lot in other races….why can’t OBRA just say no? moderate what goes on in the first place, then juggling days with other promoters is not an issue…..just my thoughts….

Jeff

ent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 10:43 PM
To: Jeff Tedder
Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Once again I think everybody is underestimating the difficulty of creating a schedule that does not have conflicts. Just look at the math:

- Between May and August there are 35 weekend days

- There are 10 days of OBRA championships that need to occur during that period.

- There are 57 other weekend day races that people have placed on the schedule. Most of them are established races just as the HV crit is.

- There are an unknown number of races that people might have put on but they did not wish to compete for a date with another race.

Given the above it is inevitable that there will be days with more than one race. Actually if things are evenly distributed there will be 1.9 races each weekend day.

If OBRA was in the business of limiting the number of races or eliminating any conflicts how would you propose to do that? Give championships precedence? Eliminate championships to free up space and decrease competition for other races? Prioritize races based on some criteria and axe the ones that have less of those criteria? How do you deal with the people involved in the production of the races that get eliminated?

Currently what OBRA does is facilitate communication between the people who are putting on races. The schedule is published months ahead of time. This allows those that can and wish to change dates to avoid conflict with another race to do so. Many races simply cannot change dates. It is not infrequent that people in such a bind just decide to not put on races.

I also have to point out that the number of people willing to put on OBRA championship races is not unlimited or, actually, very large. If these races are going to happen OBRA needs to recognize the scheduling limitations for those people.

Mike Murray

On May 10, 2016, at 21:12, Jeff Tedder via OBRA wrote:

I have been to promoters meetings and expressed how I feel and it did no good….it just seems to me, that the way things are allowed to run creates competition within the people that promote races…which in my mind is not good for racing…. If I was going to put on another race or start a new race…I would never pick a date that already had a race for 2 reasons….. 1, I would not want to push in someone elses date that has had an ongoing race for years, and 2, I think there is way to much on the schedule now and cramming races in, is not helping the attendance and any ones races….how is that good for racing in Oregon? For whatever the reason, attendance at state races and others is down if I recall….we have leveled off at the HV crit the last few years, but finally got it to a point where we make a few bucks for our efforts after 6 or 7 years….take 50 or 60 people out of the loop and we are back to luck if we break even…..Just seems to me for all our efforts, all promoters included you would want some kind of return to yourself or team for all the hard work…..

Not seeing how many races we can jam into the race schedule but making less races more quality events….The reason our race has become popular is we get tons of prizes and primes from sponsors and beyond to the point we are giving primes away almost every lap in some races….People love it, it’s a fun atmosphere and and we have a lot of followers now that love the venue and what we do… But I see many races on the schedule the past few years and then cancelled….reason??? not sure but I would guess a lot has to do with jamming other races onto those days and then its just not worth the effort…..So seems like that’s where OBRA has been leading itself the past several years…..and attendance is dropping, so I guess I put 2 and 2 together like many others that emailed me in the past 24 hours and its just not good for racing…..

Jeff

From: kl_graham@comcast.net [mailto:kl_graham@comcast.net]
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:53 PM
To: sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
Cc: obra@list.obra.org; miker0629@yahoo.com
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Jeff

Since this platform you want to have and you're not wanting to work together on a solution, I wish you good luck on June 4th. This could have been figured out 24 hours ago, so don't worry about calling.

If you're at the upcoming promoters meeting, and you want to have this discussion face to face, I'm in. Straight conversation for a better solution.

But I've got my 5th race to promote, a cycling team to run, and to be an OBRA Official when needed. Other folks work hard as well, but I also feel the calendar needs work. It's up to us though to work together to find solutions in the interim.

Good luck in all your endeavor.

Kenny Graham

Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App

-----Original Message-----

From: sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
To: ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net,miker0629@yahoo.com,obra@list.obra.org
Sent: 2016-05-10 5:29:10 PM
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

That makes no sense to me and others…so you allow people to work their asses off building a race over years to the point now that it’s the favorite crit of the year for most people and then allow others to just take that date….I don’t think so….I have put way way way to much personal time and our teams help over the years to build this race into a great day to have that happen…and compae attendance at said races you want to allow to have priority….not so great….

From: Ron [mailto:ronfrerichs@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:24 PM
To: Jeff Tedder
Cc: Michael Richardson; kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

I completely agree with your first statement.

I suggest we allow Championship Race promoters to have first crack at the schedule, then let other promoters work around them.

Ron

On May 10, 2016, at 4:37 PM, Jeff Tedder via OBRA wrote:

Ya it is a worry, a state championship race should never be on the same day as any race….and we have been putting this race on for years, finally get to the point where we get good attendance and then this…..all this does is create a competition between people that pit races on……….Plus we have many many people that TT on our team and we need them to help put our race on…..so then what ? they have to skip a state championship because people cannot figure out that this is bad for racing,,,,stupid….

From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Michael Richardson via OBRA
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 1:26 PM
To: kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

No worries.

Fast Twitch = crit

Slow Twitch = TT

Mike (all slow all the time myself)

On May 10, 2016, at 5:54 AM, via OBRA wrote:

We put this where there was space available and where time allowed. We have permits and registration is open.

No trying to under cut yall - but if we go any later in the calendar year, we run into issues with the local farmers.

I tried to email you last night about this, but your email rejected back to me.

If you would like to talk man to man about this, please call me directly at 5419059698.

Kenny

Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App

-----Original Message-----

From: obra@list.obra.org
To: bike-cyclisme@yahoogroups.com,jfbenenate@yahoo.com,lauradela67@icloud.com,obra@list.obra.org,sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
Cc:
Sent: 2016-05-09 11:57:11 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Ya and the Hammer Velo Crit is on June 4th, first and biggest crit of the year…Why they piled a satate championship race on top of our long standing race is beyond me…

But ya’ll know its always a good one, with toms of prizes and primes..and always sunny : )

See ya, Jeff

Hammer Velo

From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of John Benenate via OBRA
Sent: Monday, May 9, 2016 4:16 PM
To: OBRA List; yahoogroups; Laura Delahoussaye
Subject: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT

Just checkin'

The TTT Champ is May 21st?

and the TT Champ is June 4th?

Thanks,

jb

_______________________________________________ OBRA mailing list obra@list.obra.org http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
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http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_____

OBRA mailing list
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http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

--
>^•.•^<

Robert

Jeff, you are missing a couple important points.

First, OBRA is the sanctioning body - not the promoter. They, just like USA Cycling, don't dictate the schedule. They just sell the promoter "sanctioning".

Second, if attendance is down at your race, it is typically your fault. Let me ask you this ... how much promoting had been done? Because you put it on the schedule doesn't mean people will come. How many emails to this list have been sent out in the last three months? How many Facebook posts? How many tweets? How many fliers printed?

If I start a construction company, and I don't have enough customers, should I promote my business, of have half the other construction companies in the area shut down? Obviously the answer is promote - as I have done for the last 20 years for my own business.

Robert

On May 11, 2016 8:29:51 AM PDT, Jeff Tedder via OBRA wrote:
>Well at this point, its like the homeless garbage camps in
>Portland….its kind of out of control and been let go to long and to the
>point that how do you fix it??
>
>That’s a good question…..these races that change days or are new races
>should not be allowed to be piled on other race days……Not just our race
>its many I am sure without looking at the schedule…If you choose to
>change your day then you have to fit in the schedule or not put it
>on….thats up to you…..if you have a date that you have been using and
>then you change that day, how is it fair to just say well I will put my
>race on the same day as some else that has had that day for years….how
>is this benefitting anyone in bike racing…Quality races are much better
>than splitting up obra members 2 or 3 ways sometimes….
>
>So at this point I am not sure how you fix it other than saying no…if
>people want to change days or add a day, just say no…..that atleast
>will stop it at this point and then the rest could be worked on from
>there…but continuing to allow this is not helping the problem….
>
>And complaining about state races has nothing to do with complaining
>about it effecting our race because they should never be put on the
>same day…. : )
>
>Maybe OBRA should promote all state championships? Along with help and
>volunteers from all obra teams to make it a group effort…. And have the
>same days each year on the schedule…and not have races piled on top of
>them as well…maybe people might get interested again? who knows?
>
>But if we have them, and they are called state championships then they
>should be a big deal for people and I guess us and OBRA have to make
>that happen…
>
>
>
>Jeff
>
>
>
>From: Mike Murray [mailto:mike.murray@obra.org]
>Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 8:01 AM
>To: Jeff Tedder
>Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com; obra@list.obra.org
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>
>
>
>So Jeff, given that there are nearly twice as many weekend races on the
>schedule as there are days May through August, which half of the races
>would you have OBRA say no to? How would that determination be made?
>Please be specific. We know you want to cancel the race held the same
>day as your race. Please tell us what other races you would have OBRA
>cancel to reach your desired only one race per day schedule.
>
>
>
>I also have to point out that there is a logical flaw in complaining
>about poor attendance at OBRA championship races while simultaneously
>complaining about the effect on attendance at your race.
>
>Mike Murray
>
>
>On May 11, 2016, at 07:17, Jeff Tedder
>wrote:
>
>Well to start, I would just say NO to adding races that pile on top of
>other races….you either choose a date that works out in your area to
>not conflict with other races or you just don’t put it on….
>
>Again, this just creates issues every year, there is races that have
>been going for years and years on the same dates, weekends etc….Why
>would a promoter even want to put on a race on the same day as these
>races anyway?? I would not do it…If I was starting a new race or doing
>another race I just would not hone in on another day that has a race in
>my area to conflict with it…But that me I guess….Again this goes back
>to OBRA just saying no when this comes up….the schedule should come out
>with all the races that have been using the same days year after
>year…then people wanting to change their day or add a new race should
>have to do that with understanding what races are going on and
>depending on where you are in the state and if it could overlap other
>races and the people that attend these races....I mean it’s almost to
>the point where we should just put out days for Bid and the highest
>bidder gets those days… Again as I said yesterday, More is not always
>Better, Quality races that people look forward to each year is more
>important to me and getting the majority of racers there to race, not
>having them have to choose every weekend…..On the state race issue,
>looking at the attendance at many state races in the past several
>years…I would say, why bother in some cases….the effort that goes into
>putting on a race, and seeing the amount of people showing up at some
>state races, it just seems to me, 1… hard to call it state
>championship in the first place, a lot of times it’s the city its in
>and becomes a city championship more than anything….State Championships
>should be a huge race for everyone every year….But again, there is so
>much racing that people don’t really seem to care by the attendance
>record, especially when its away from the Portland area…..So we can go
>back and forth on this forever, everyone has their thoughts, but
>again…why choose a day that already has an established race, your race
>will suffer, and it also takes away from a race that has been on-going
>for years, not just our race, this happens a lot in other races….why
>can’t OBRA just say no? moderate what goes on in the first place, then
>juggling days with other promoters is not an issue…..just my thoughts….
>
>
>
>Jeff
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>ent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 10:43 PM
>To: Jeff Tedder
>Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com; obra@list.obra.org
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>
>
>
>Once again I think everybody is underestimating the difficulty of
>creating a schedule that does not have conflicts. Just look at the
>math:
>
>
>
>- Between May and August there are 35 weekend days
>
>- There are 10 days of OBRA championships that need to occur during
>that period.
>
>- There are 57 other weekend day races that people have placed on the
>schedule. Most of them are established races just as the HV crit is.
>
>- There are an unknown number of races that people might have put on
>but they did not wish to compete for a date with another race.
>
>
>
>Given the above it is inevitable that there will be days with more than
>one race. Actually if things are evenly distributed there will be 1.9
>races each weekend day.
>
>
>
>If OBRA was in the business of limiting the number of races or
>eliminating any conflicts how would you propose to do that? Give
>championships precedence? Eliminate championships to free up space and
>decrease competition for other races? Prioritize races based on some
>criteria and axe the ones that have less of those criteria? How do you
>deal with the people involved in the production of the races that get
>eliminated?
>
>
>
>Currently what OBRA does is facilitate communication between the people
>who are putting on races. The schedule is published months ahead of
>time. This allows those that can and wish to change dates to avoid
>conflict with another race to do so. Many races simply cannot change
>dates. It is not infrequent that people in such a bind just decide to
>not put on races.
>
>
>
>I also have to point out that the number of people willing to put on
>OBRA championship races is not unlimited or, actually, very large. If
>these races are going to happen OBRA needs to recognize the scheduling
>limitations for those people.
>
>
>Mike Murray
>
>
>On May 10, 2016, at 21:12, Jeff Tedder via OBRA
>wrote:
>
>I have been to promoters meetings and expressed how I feel and it did
>no good….it just seems to me, that the way things are allowed to run
>creates competition within the people that promote races…which in my
>mind is not good for racing…. If I was going to put on another race or
>start a new race…I would never pick a date that already had a race for
>2 reasons….. 1, I would not want to push in someone elses date that has
>had an ongoing race for years, and 2, I think there is way to much on
>the schedule now and cramming races in, is not helping the attendance
>and any ones races….how is that good for racing in Oregon? For
>whatever the reason, attendance at state races and others is down if I
>recall….we have leveled off at the HV crit the last few years, but
>finally got it to a point where we make a few bucks for our efforts
>after 6 or 7 years….take 50 or 60 people out of the loop and we are
>back to luck if we break even…..Just seems to me for all our efforts,
>all promoters included you would want some kind of return to yourself
>or team for all the hard work…..
>
>Not seeing how many races we can jam into the race schedule but making
>less races more quality events….The reason our race has become popular
>is we get tons of prizes and primes from sponsors and beyond to the
>point we are giving primes away almost every lap in some races….People
>love it, it’s a fun atmosphere and and we have a lot of followers now
>that love the venue and what we do… But I see many races on the
>schedule the past few years and then cancelled….reason??? not sure but
>I would guess a lot has to do with jamming other races onto those days
>and then its just not worth the effort…..So seems like that’s where
>OBRA has been leading itself the past several years…..and attendance is
>dropping, so I guess I put 2 and 2 together like many others that
>emailed me in the past 24 hours and its just not good for racing…..
>
>
>
>Jeff
>
>From: kl_graham@comcast.net [mailto:kl_graham@comcast.net]
>Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:53 PM
>To: sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
>Cc: obra@list.obra.org; miker0629@yahoo.com
>Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>
>
>
>Jeff
>
>Since this platform you want to have and you're not wanting to work
>together on a solution, I wish you good luck on June 4th. This could
>have been figured out 24 hours ago, so don't worry about calling.
>
>If you're at the upcoming promoters meeting, and you want to have this
>discussion face to face, I'm in. Straight conversation for a better
>solution.
>
>But I've got my 5th race to promote, a cycling team to run, and to be
>an OBRA Official when needed. Other folks work hard as well, but I also
>feel the calendar needs work. It's up to us though to work together to
>find solutions in the interim.
>
>Good luck in all your endeavor.
>
>
>
>Kenny Graham
>
>
>
>Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>
>From: sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
>To: ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
>Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net,miker0629@yahoo.com,obra@list.obra.org
>Sent: 2016-05-10 5:29:10 PM
>Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>
>That makes no sense to me and others…so you allow people to work their
>asses off building a race over years to the point now that it’s the
>favorite crit of the year for most people and then allow others to just
>take that date….I don’t think so….I have put way way way to much
>personal time and our teams help over the years to build this race into
>a great day to have that happen…and compae attendance at said races you
>want to allow to have priority….not so great….
>
>
>
>From: Ron [mailto:ronfrerichs@hotmail.com]
>Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:24 PM
>To: Jeff Tedder
>Cc: Michael Richardson; kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>
>
>
>I completely agree with your first statement.
>
>
>
>I suggest we allow Championship Race promoters to have first crack at
>the schedule, then let other promoters work around them.
>
>
>
>Ron
>
>
>On May 10, 2016, at 4:37 PM, Jeff Tedder via OBRA
>wrote:
>
>Ya it is a worry, a state championship race should never be on the same
>day as any race….and we have been putting this race on for years,
>finally get to the point where we get good attendance and then
>this…..all this does is create a competition between people that pit
>races on……….Plus we have many many people that TT on our team and we
>need them to help put our race on…..so then what ? they have to skip a
>state championship because people cannot figure out that this is bad
>for racing,,,,stupid….
>
>From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Michael
>Richardson via OBRA
>Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 1:26 PM
>To: kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>
>
>
>No worries.
>
>
>
>Fast Twitch = crit
>
>Slow Twitch = TT
>
>
>Mike (all slow all the time myself)
>
>
>On May 10, 2016, at 5:54 AM, via OBRA wrote:
>
>We put this where there was space available and where time allowed. We
>have permits and registration is open.
>
>No trying to under cut yall - but if we go any later in the calendar
>year, we run into issues with the local farmers.
>
>I tried to email you last night about this, but your email rejected
>back to me.
>
>If you would like to talk man to man about this, please call me
>directly at 5419059698.
>
>Kenny
>
>Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>
>From: obra@list.obra.org
>To:
>bike-cyclisme@yahoogroups.com,jfbenenate@yahoo.com,lauradela67@icloud.com,obra@list.obra.org,sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
>Cc:
>Sent: 2016-05-09 11:57:11 PM
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>
>
>
>Ya and the Hammer Velo Crit is on June 4th, first and biggest crit of
>the year…Why they piled a satate championship race on top of our long
>standing race is beyond me…
>
>But ya’ll know its always a good one, with toms of prizes and
>primes..and always sunny : )
>
>
>
>See ya, Jeff
>
>Hammer Velo
>
>
>
>From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of John
>Benenate via OBRA
>Sent: Monday, May 9, 2016 4:16 PM
>To: OBRA List; yahoogroups; Laura Delahoussaye
>Subject: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>
>
>
>Just checkin'
>
>The TTT Champ is May 21st?
>
>and the TT Champ is June 4th?
>
>Thanks,
>
>jb
>
>_______________________________________________ OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

--
>^•.•^<

Mat Braun

Mike,

I have to be honest it doesn't seem like an impossible task to organize the
calendar such that events work better together. It certainly doesn't seem
fair to put it on Jeff to manage this task. If state championships are so
important why are they typically left to the last minute, some years even
in danger of not happening. Has OBRA ever taken over these events and
promoted them?

Good luck to both Jeff and Kenny, it does seem that OBRA should step in and
if nothing else help facilitate their dialogue.
-Mat

On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 8:00 AM, Mike Murray via OBRA
wrote:

> So Jeff, given that there are nearly twice as many weekend races on the
> schedule as there are days May through August, which half of the races
> would you have OBRA say no to? How would that determination be made? Please
> be specific. We know you want to cancel the race held the same day as your
> race. Please tell us what other races you would have OBRA cancel to reach
> your desired only one race per day schedule.
>
> I also have to point out that there is a logical flaw in complaining about
> poor attendance at OBRA championship races while simultaneously complaining
> about the effect on attendance at your race.
>
> Mike Murray
>
> On May 11, 2016, at 07:17, Jeff Tedder
> wrote:
>
> Well to start, I would just say NO to adding races that pile on top of
> other races….you either choose a date that works out in your area to not
> conflict with other races or you just don’t put it on….
>
> Again, this just creates issues every year, there is races that have been
> going for years and years on the same dates, weekends etc….Why would a
> promoter even want to put on a race on the same day as these races anyway??
> I would not do it…If I was starting a new race or doing another race I just
> would not hone in on another day that has a race in my area to conflict
> with it…But that me I guess….Again this goes back to OBRA just saying no
> when this comes up….the schedule should come out with all the races that
> have been using the same days year after year…then people wanting to change
> their day or add a new race should have to do that with understanding what
> races are going on and depending on where you are in the state and if it
> could overlap other races and the people that attend these races....I mean
> it’s almost to the point where we should just put out days for Bid and the
> highest bidder gets those days… Again as I said yesterday, More is not
> always Better, Quality races that people look forward to each year is more
> important to me and getting the majority of racers there to race, not
> having them have to choose every weekend…..On the state race issue, looking
> at the attendance at many state races in the past several years…I would
> say, why bother in some cases….the effort that goes into putting on a race,
> and seeing the amount of people showing up at some state races, it just
> seems to me, 1… hard to call it state championship in the first place, a
> lot of times it’s the city its in and becomes a city championship more than
> anything….State Championships should be a huge race for everyone every
> year….But again, there is so much racing that people don’t really seem to
> care by the attendance record, especially when its away from the Portland
> area…..So we can go back and forth on this forever, everyone has their
> thoughts, but again…why choose a day that already has an established race,
> your race will suffer, and it also takes away from a race that has been
> on-going for years, not just our race, this happens a lot in other
> races….why can’t OBRA just say no? moderate what goes on in the first
> place, then juggling days with other promoters is not an issue…..just my
> thoughts….
>
>
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *ent:* Tuesday, May 10, 2016 10:43 PM
> *To:* Jeff Tedder
> *Cc:* kl_graham@comcast.net; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com; obra@list.obra.org
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>
>
>
> Once again I think everybody is underestimating the difficulty of creating
> a schedule that does not have conflicts. Just look at the math:
>
>
>
> - Between May and August there are 35 weekend days
>
> - There are 10 days of OBRA championships that need to occur during that
> period.
>
> - There are 57 other weekend day races that people have placed on the
> schedule. Most of them are established races just as the HV crit is.
>
> - There are an unknown number of races that people might have put on but
> they did not wish to compete for a date with another race.
>
>
>
> Given the above it is inevitable that there will be days with more than
> one race. Actually if things are evenly distributed there will be 1.9 races
> each weekend day.
>
>
>
> If OBRA was in the business of limiting the number of races or eliminating
> any conflicts how would you propose to do that? Give championships
> precedence? Eliminate championships to free up space and decrease
> competition for other races? Prioritize races based on some criteria and
> axe the ones that have less of those criteria? How do you deal with the
> people involved in the production of the races that get eliminated?
>
>
>
> Currently what OBRA does is facilitate communication between the people
> who are putting on races. The schedule is published months ahead of time.
> This allows those that can and wish to change dates to avoid conflict with
> another race to do so. Many races simply cannot change dates. It is not
> infrequent that people in such a bind just decide to not put on races.
>
>
>
> I also have to point out that the number of people willing to put on OBRA
> championship races is not unlimited or, actually, very large. If these
> races are going to happen OBRA needs to recognize the scheduling
> limitations for those people.
>
>
> Mike Murray
>
>
> On May 10, 2016, at 21:12, Jeff Tedder via OBRA
> wrote:
>
> I have been to promoters meetings and expressed how I feel and it did no
> good….it just seems to me, that the way things are allowed to run creates
> competition within the people that promote races…which in my mind is not
> good for racing…. If I was going to put on another race or start a new
> race…I would never pick a date that already had a race for 2 reasons….. 1,
> I would not want to push in someone elses date that has had an ongoing race
> for years, and 2, I think there is way to much on the schedule now and
> cramming races in, is not helping the attendance and any ones races….how is
> that good for racing in Oregon? For whatever the reason, attendance at
> state races and others is down if I recall….we have leveled off at the HV
> crit the last few years, but finally got it to a point where we make a few
> bucks for our efforts after 6 or 7 years….take 50 or 60 people out of the
> loop and we are back to luck if we break even…..Just seems to me for all
> our efforts, all promoters included you would want some kind of return to
> yourself or team for all the hard work…..
>
> Not seeing how many races we can jam into the race schedule but making
> less races more quality events….The reason our race has become popular is
> we get tons of prizes and primes from sponsors and beyond to the point we
> are giving primes away almost every lap in some races….People love it, it’s
> a fun atmosphere and and we have a lot of followers now that love the venue
> and what we do… But I see many races on the schedule the past few years and
> then cancelled….reason??? not sure but I would guess a lot has to do with
> jamming other races onto those days and then its just not worth the
> effort…..So seems like that’s where OBRA has been leading itself the past
> several years…..and attendance is dropping, so I guess I put 2 and 2
> together like many others that emailed me in the past 24 hours and its just
> not good for racing…..
>
>
>
> Jeff
>
> *From:* kl_graham@comcast.net [mailto:kl_graham@comcast.net
> ]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:53 PM
> *To:* sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com; ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
> *Cc:* obra@list.obra.org; miker0629@yahoo.com
> *Subject:* RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>
>
>
> Jeff
>
> Since this platform you want to have and you're not wanting to work
> together on a solution, I wish you good luck on June 4th. This could have
> been figured out 24 hours ago, so don't worry about calling.
>
> If you're at the upcoming promoters meeting, and you want to have this
> discussion face to face, I'm in. Straight conversation for a better
> solution.
>
> But I've got my 5th race to promote, a cycling team to run, and to be an
> OBRA Official when needed. Other folks work hard as well, but I also feel
> the calendar needs work. It's up to us though to work together to find
> solutions in the interim.
>
> Good luck in all your endeavor.
>
>
>
> Kenny Graham
>
>
>
> Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
> To: ronfrerichs@hotmail.com
> Cc: kl_graham@comcast.net,miker0629@yahoo.com,obra@list.obra.org
> Sent: 2016-05-10 5:29:10 PM
> Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>
> That makes no sense to me and others…so you allow people to work their
> asses off building a race over years to the point now that it’s the
> favorite crit of the year for most people and then allow others to just
> take that date….I don’t think so….I have put way way way to much personal
> time and our teams help over the years to build this race into a great day
> to have that happen…and compae attendance at said races you want to allow
> to have priority….not so great….
>
>
>
> *From:* Ron [mailto:ronfrerichs@hotmail.com ]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:24 PM
> *To:* Jeff Tedder
> *Cc:* Michael Richardson; kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>
>
>
> I completely agree with your first statement.
>
>
>
> I suggest we allow Championship Race promoters to have first crack at the
> schedule, then let other promoters work around them.
>
>
>
> Ron
>
>
> On May 10, 2016, at 4:37 PM, Jeff Tedder via OBRA
> wrote:
>
> Ya it is a worry, a state championship race should never be on the same
> day as any race….and we have been putting this race on for years, finally
> get to the point where we get good attendance and then this…..all this does
> is create a competition between people that pit races on……….Plus we have
> many many people that TT on our team and we need them to help put our race
> on…..so then what ? they have to skip a state championship because people
> cannot figure out that this is bad for racing,,,,stupid….
>
> *From:* OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> ] *On Behalf Of *Michael Richardson via OBRA
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 10, 2016 1:26 PM
> *To:* kl_graham@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>
>
>
> No worries.
>
>
>
> Fast Twitch = crit
>
> Slow Twitch = TT
>
>
> Mike (all slow all the time myself)
>
>
> On May 10, 2016, at 5:54 AM, via OBRA wrote:
>
> We put this where there was space available and where time allowed. We
> have permits and registration is open.
>
> No trying to under cut yall - but if we go any later in the calendar year,
> we run into issues with the local farmers.
>
> I tried to email you last night about this, but your email rejected back
> to me.
>
> If you would like to talk man to man about this, please call me directly
> at 5419059698.
>
> Kenny
>
> Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: obra@list.obra.org
> To: bike-cyclisme@yahoogroups.com,jfbenenate@yahoo.com,
> lauradela67@icloud.com,obra@list.obra.org,sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
> Cc:
> Sent: 2016-05-09 11:57:11 PM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>
>
>
> Ya and the Hammer Velo Crit is on June 4th, first and biggest crit of
> the year…Why they piled a satate championship race on top of our long
> standing race is beyond me…
>
> But ya’ll know its always a good one, with toms of prizes and primes..and
> always sunny : )
>
>
>
> See ya, Jeff
>
> Hammer Velo
>
>
>
> *From:* OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> ] *On Behalf Of *John Benenate via OBRA
> *Sent:* Monday, May 9, 2016 4:16 PM
> *To:* OBRA List; yahoogroups; Laura Delahoussaye
> *Subject:* [OBRA Chat] OBRA TT&TTT
>
>
>
> Just checkin'
>
> The TTT Champ is May 21st?
>
> and the TT Champ is June 4th?
>
> Thanks,
>
> jb
>
> _______________________________________________ OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>