Fw: [OBRA Chat] CX Upgrades - something's missing...

adam holt

2016-09-23

Correct me if I'm wrong (which is a really distinct possibility) but I feel like we're talking about 2 different issues. The category titles were changed to make it easier to mesh results and races with USAC, correct? Has this actually resulted in more "combined category" races, or is it just more visible because we were all required to examine our current category a little more closely, and it's been brought to the forefront?

1/2 are supposed to be the same skill level, the only technical difference is holding a USAC licence or not - so they should be scored together. Are there any medium to large sized races that run a 2/3 race (where, theoretically, the 3's would finish further down) and then a 3/4 race, where you can choose to race one or the other? If so, how does the lower category get a chance for upgrade points if they're scored with the higher cats?

I totally understand why really small races would combine categories - there aren't many points at stake with smaller fields. But even at our local (Bend) weekly CX series, the kind folks running the race are pretty diligent about keeping the final results "category specific". We can only fit in 2 races before dark, but the 1/2, 3, 35+, Men's, and Women's are all staggered starts by 30 seconds and scored separately. Thus, you race on a course with lots of folks, but you are truly measured (scored) only against your peers. Is this the norm, or is it the exception?

Adam

________________________________
From: OBRA on behalf of Salvatore Collura via OBRA
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2016 12:29:24 PM
To: Candi Murray
Cc: obra
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] CX Upgrades - something's missing...

So if we're going back to how we did it before, why did we change in the first place?

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 23, 2016, at 12:24 PM, Candi Murray via OBRA > wrote:

John- exactly

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 23, 2016, at 12:08 PM, John Gill via OBRA > wrote:

I think that you are missing the idea. Not a separate race for each category but something like in the past. For example:
8:40am Cat 5, Single Speed Women, Unicycles* 40 min
9:30am Category 4, Clydesdale, Athena 45 min
10:25am Break/course preview 10 min
10:35am Masters Category 4 35+ 45 min
11:30am Masters 3 35+, Masters 50+, Masters 60+ 45 min
12:20pm Break/course preview 10 min
12:35pm All Juniors: Men, Women** 30 min
1:15pm Category 1/2 Men, Category 1/2 Women, Masters Category 1/2 35+ 60 min
2:20pm Women: Cat 3, Cat 4, Cat 5, Masters 35+ 1/2, 3, 45+ 45 min
3:15pm Category 3 and Single Speed 45 min

Same time frame...but easier to know what race you SHOULD be in, easier for upgrade tracking, and more balanced fields.
John

On Fri, Sep 23, 2016 at 11:06 AM, via OBRA > wrote:
Not putting any one person down, but...
Putting on a race is much more work for promoters and officials than it might seem. If you have never been heavily involved, you might not understand the huge time commitments. Just showing up to race with the expectations that you will see accurate results in minutes or hours might create an incomplete picture of what it takes to put on and score the race. If there was a separate race for each field, the race day would be 20 hours long. Not going to happen. If you want each cat separated out by the officials, I think the request that more people take the time out of their training (or life in general) to help officiate was well founded. I do not remember (except for the weekday / evening races) where the “As” raced with any other cat lower. That is usually because of the very restricted time available.
I hope whatever happens with regard to this.........most people either accept what promoters / officials are trying to do to maintain fairness, or step up with their time to make it even better. Electronic media is a great way to throw out all sorts of ideas, criticism etc. Actually helping in the “real world” is another animal.
Truth is we have had some great racing already this Cross season and more to come. Just ride faster!
ron

From: Ian Boggs via OBRA
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2016 10:36 AM
To: jon.ragsdale@comcast.net
Cc: obra
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] CX Upgrades - something's missing...

I'm confused about the time constraint argument, since the combined 1/2 field is effectively the old "A" category, and the other individual numbered categories correspond to B, C, and Beginner. How does going to a numbered system differ in scheduling from previous years when we combine the 1s and 2s anyway?

-
Ian

On Sep 23, 2016 10:06 AM, "via OBRA" > wrote:
Combined fields will probably always be the norm due to time constraints. Fields could be run at the same time and scored separately, thought that is much more work on the officials. Anybody going to step up and become a new official to help with that?

________________________________
From: "Devin Bailly via OBRA" >
Cc: "obra" >
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2016 9:43:43 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] CX Upgrades - something's missing...

I agree with Brad (and Candi) - "do away with combined fields when scheduling for next year" And even for the rest of THIS year! (when possible)
It's creating more confusion than opportunity.

Alternatively, follow the aforementioned clause in the road upgrade rules for CX also.

-Devin

On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 10:29 AM, Brad Davidson via OBRA > wrote:
That rule is specifically in the ROAD section, not the CX section. Candi confirmed that folks are being scored for upgrades even from the top category in the field.

Here's hoping that promoters decide to do away with combined fields when scheduling for next year.

-Brad

> The way I read that rule is that you can only get points to count for an
> upgrade from the BOTTOM MOST category - so any points you earn as a 3 in
> the 3/4 race (where a 2/3 race is available) won't count, since you're not
> the bottom-most category in the race. That specifically addresses your
> complaint of the rule encouraging sandbagging for upgrades, since it seems
> like it's written to prevent that.
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