Brian Baumann
Not that it matters for the discussion, but the estimate numbers I posted are for Sport Male only.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jan 30, 2017, at 4:45 PM, My Computer wrote:
>
> Not to mention, I think Sisters Stampede is very well attended at end of May, I think they typically sell out the 500 or so available entries, which looks to be a lot more than Mich has. Not sure what that means in the grand scheme besides it's a good time of year (warm) and a great race.
>
>> On Jan 30, 2017 4:40 PM, "Brian Baumann via OBRA" wrote:
>> Agreed, but I guess my point is that they are able to maintain large fields throughout the entire season (including muggy, hot, mosquito-infested Summer days) for some reason(s). I realize there are many variables when looking at these kinds of things, but I thought it might help to look at data from another area.
>> I am grateful for the racing available to us here in Oregon. Thanks to everyone who puts in the time to make it all happen.
>> Cheers!
>>
>>
>>
>> On Monday, January 30, 2017 4:07 PM, Mike Murray via OBRA wrote:
>>
>>
>> I have to point out that the March and April weather in WI is substantially different from the lowland weather in OR at that time of year.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of craig austin via OBRA
>> Sent: Monday, January 30, 2017 12:00
>> To: Brian Baumann
>> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Fwd: Re: OBRA Race Season
>>
>> Huh. And they don't start till the middle of May.
>>
>> Craig
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 11:43 AM, Brian Baumann via OBRA wrote:
>> I had a minute so I looked at the numbers for the Sport Male category in Wisconsin for 2016. WI has a Summer break for public school students, and I believe they have one of the most popular XC series in the nation. Here is a quick breakdown of some of their races (close estimates, not exact counts) for Sport Male:
>> May 15-170 racers
>> June 5- 200+ racers
>> June 26- 180 racers
>> July 10- 200+ racers
>> Aug 21- 160 racers
>>
>> This is their 2017 schedule. 2017 Schedule - Wisconsin Off Road Series
>>
>> 2017 Schedule - Wisconsin Off Road Series
>> Year 26 of WORS Date Event #1 May 6, 2017 Englewood Opener #2 May 21, 2017 Iola Bump & Jump #3 June 4, 201...
>>
>>
>> On Monday, January 30, 2017 9:48 AM, Brian Baumann via OBRA wrote:
>>
>> Regarding the XC race season, do other states who do not have year-round schooling experience the same decline in race numbers in the Summer? If not, it might be good to know what they do differently than us. Just a thought.
>> Cheers!
>>
>> On Thursday, January 26, 2017 12:13 PM, Robert via OBRA wrote:
>>
>> Perhaps we are not ignoring it. Perhaps we are suggesting something different to achieve different results from what we have now. It's not like I'm the only one who has had this idea and implemented it - some with success and some without. To do the same things over and over again yet expect different results is dumb.
>> --
>> Sent by an Android >^•^<
>> On January 26, 2017 11:02:33 AM PST, Marek Litinsky wrote:
>> It's funny how bunch of you totally choose to ignore information of insiders with experience. You have long time promoter with access to data and historical context telling you it's market driven and early season road races are way to go.
>>
>> You have most experienced official telling you that cross races after Thanksgiving were a flop, people didn't show up in crappy weather (and I don't care how brave you are on computer screen in January) and now there are no races in December.
>>
>> To me the main reason for scheduling races at the certain time of the year is TRADITION of the sport adjusted by market rules of supply and demand. I agree it's complicated. I love complicated.
>>
>> There's hundred year tradition of hard races in the Spring on the road. We are fortunate enough to be able to do few of them.
>>
>> There is also a tradition to race cross well after new year. I would want to everybody who race cross to have chance to do that. But one can not force people who promote races to dedicate THEIR resources for what seems to be not working in Oregon. Talking about depleting resources of racers unable to time and manage their training and recovery to have an ability to race for more than eight weeks a year on whatever level they aspire and totally ignore question of depleting of financial ,time and other resources on the promoters side is pretty simply put silly.
>>
>> On Jan 26, 2017, at 10:17 AM, Jeff Tedder via OBRA wrote:
>> Yes Robert…… I have been saying this for years,
>> “Also, OBRA should be managing the schedule for racing to avoid putting competing events on the same day. It does no one any good to have two or three events on one day splitting up the available racers, officials, and equipment. What we are really lacking here is leadership. “+
>> and finally gave up…piling races on top of races is not good for anyone…but then you get those that say hey, it’s a free market, do what you want…I think losing some races is a direct effect from this….I also say less races and more quality races is more important than just putting on as many races as possible…..and then having attendance be low…focus on keeping the schedule with as little cross over as possible….and putting on quality well attended races and everyone wins…..the teams an promoters actually get something back for all their efforts and OBRA members get well attended races that people are happy with…..Plus it brings back more team aspect for training together etc….Not have 2 or 3 or 4 race options every weekend…Something we at Hammer Velo have done for years anyway, is staying engaged as a team and training together year around….
>>
>> “
>>
>> From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Robert via OBRA
>> Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2017 9:15 AM
>> To: obra@list.obra.org
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Fwd: Re: OBRA Race Season
>>
>> We should define seasons for races... March thru August for road, May thru August for track, April thru august for Mountain bike, September is championship month for all except cross, and October thru December for cross, with champs in Jan. This would eliminate some cross over between road/track/ MB and cross allowing for a bit of recovery, put championships at the end of seasons where they belong, and still allow for plenty of time for racing.
>> Also, OBRA should be managing the schedule for racing to avoid putting competing events on the same day. It does no one any good to have two or three events on one day splitting up the available racers, officials, and equipment. What we are really lacking here is leadership.
>> On 1/26/2017 08:55, John Gill via OBRA wrote:
>> Chad,
>> I don't know why you call it funny. Races are disappearing and people are trying to help promoters understand why it might be happening.
>>
>> My point is that the market will ALWAYS reward an earlier race because of pent up demand. If the first road race of the season was July 1st, there would be a HUGE field because people would be so excited to race!
>>
>> My point is not that there SHOULD be limits, but it is something that promoters as operators of businesses should consider when scheduling their races. Just as any other business owner listens to feedback from customers and makes changes when profits die off, promoters should listen to ALL customers (racers).
>>
>> The complaint from promoters is that numbers of racers are down. There have been several people in this thread offering possible problems that could be addressed, or offering possible solutions. Juston just recommended that if the season starts too early, numbers would be low. I agree with this and see this in my own racing habits. I race some early races, get tired of being cold and wet, and stop racing. Marek offered a solution to add different kinds of races that include different kinds of racers (fondo riders) and potentially decrease overhead for more profits. But both of these ideas seem to rub people the wrong way because they are different than the current system. However, the conversation is occurring because the current system isn't working. Racing numbers are down, promoters are giving up on promoting due to lack of profitability and the customers are merely using this platform to communicate their opinions as to possible solutions.
>>
>> Regarding the "Promoters chase the numbers so ultimately it is up to all the racers to start attending late season events and forgo March races!", it was my intent in my earlier post to illustrate why this doesn't work for me (and many people I know). Adding more races to the end of a season won't work because people will only go to "x" number of races and if those are used up in early races where the fields are small because fair weather racers don't show up, then the fields will be low all season. If a promoter wants to fill a race up, they should be the first race of the season and have it well promoted with lots of hype. However, this is not necessarily the right answer for the overall health of the OBRA community. This "market driven" approach (as you call it) is suffering from the "tragedy of the commons" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons) where "individual users acting independently according to their own self-interest behave contrary to the common good of all users by depleting that resource through their collective action." In other words, in my opinion, the early season promoters are acting independently to promote their own race and make it successful (which they SHOULD BE DOING) but this is contrary to the common good because OBRA as a whole (the community not the organization) would benefit from later races that keep more people excited longer into the season. The early race promoters are using up the limited resource of racers time, motivation, and money.
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 12:10 PM, Chad Sperry via OBRA wrote:
>>
>> This whole thread is funny! It is all market driven. Racing in crappy weather in March is when the most riders attend. After July 1st it is impossible to get any kind of sizeable road race field. Promoters chase the numbers so ultimately it is up to all the racers to start attending late season events and forgo March races!
>>
>> Chad
>>
>> On Jan 25, 2017 11:59 AM, "Steven Beardsley via OBRA" wrote:
>> Are you all suggesting that OBRA should not allow an organizer/promoter to sanction a race through OBRA if falls outside of these suggested time frames?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 11:46 AM, Rick Johnson via OBRA wrote:
>> That's the gospel truth - our race season has become skewed so far it's become dysfunctional. I have said this myself many, many times over the years - as long time members of this chat group will likely remember.
>>
>> Bicycle racing is hard enough as it is. Making it uncomfortable and dangerous does nothing to encourage participation.
>>
>> Rick
>>
>> Rick Johnson
>> Bend, Oregon
>>
>> Every revolutionary idea seems to evoke three stages of reaction...
>> One, it's completely impossible.
>> Two, it's possible, but it's not worth doing.
>> Three, I said it was a good idea all along.
>>
>> Arthur C. Clarke
>>
>>
>> On 1/25/2017 10:58 AM, Juston Manville via OBRA wrote:
>> Maybe participation would improve if we pushed our entire season back a month or two. Most of my arguments are weather related:
>> 1) It rains all the time in April; pushing early races into May improves the chances of good weather and safe roads.It also allows skiers to get in shape before the races come.
>> 2) XCO mountain bike racing stops in June; prime race weather for XCO length MTB races are in the months of July and August; this aligns with the UCI Season.
>> 3) Early fall is an excellent time for Grand Fondos and long MTB Races; cooler weather and great base for cross season
>> 4) Cross season begins and ends way too early; OBRA was done with cross six weeks before Nationals. Cross is a winter sport (Oct/ Nov to Jan/Feb)
>> 5) The obsession of turning circles in grass fields makes racing boring; short-track is not cyclocross on fat tires. Let's add some singletrack to short-track
>> 6) Most importantly, let's get some singletrack in Forest Park so we can build interest in mountain biking in Portland; mountain biking is a great entry point into road racing.
>>
>> -- Manville
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