My Computer

I think we would all agree that having other promoters do the same, with
the same reaction by the OBRA community (aka support), to bring back a race
that is well liked is a GOOD thing.

I don't see how it's a dangerous precedent. Water will find it's level.
It's subsidizing entry costs, raising entry costs would be doing
effectively the same thing without the transparency of why. Chad came to
the table out laid it out. If folks aren't interested, so be it, they
won't donate and we lose a race. At least we HAVE a say in it opposed to a
promoter axing the race with no further comment because it doesn't make
financial sense.

"Holding hostage" is a word reserved for big Pharma companies and Petroleum
companies (except for guys like Ryan F, you go brother). Not for bike
racing. In racing we both need each other, they need our active
participation and we need theirs. We can easily make a decision NOT to
support financially and the race goes away and we are no worse for wear
except for our disappointment.

What about a GoFundMe account? Easy way to manage and gauge interest up
front.

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 11:56 AM, Marek Litinsky via OBRA wrote:

> I think it's one thing when teams become promoters and completely
> different thing for private promoter hitting racers for extra money to fill
> hole in the budget for just this one more time race. That's very dangerous
> precedent and very short term solution. What prevents any other promoter to
> do the same? Not even creating fund with OBRA for emergencies like that.
> You seem to not remember this was not an emergency. There was no race
> planned/promoted for that day. Some folks cried and Chad offered to make it
> happen for few extra thousands dollars on the top of race fees. That's not
> an emergency.
>
> OBRA should consider establishing way to offset race costs by getting
> general sponsors with their names/brands on the all of the OBRA races. They
> are the only player big enough to do that. They have de facto all the
> races. They can and should advertise on all of them. Now obviously that
> would create friction with those very few people who organize races and
> already have sponsors such as Crusade and might not be interested in this
> model because they don't need help, but that doesn't mean it's not a way to
> go. Btw, this would be long term solution.
>
> > On Feb 1, 2017, at 11:20 AM, Norm Swygert via OBRA
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Marek --no, that was not what I wrote. I was expressly suggesting
> that teams might voluntarily support --in a pro-active way--
> promoters/organizers so that races are less likely to get into jeopardy,
> less likely to need emergency and volunteer financial help at the last
> minute. Teams could help the promoter (only if the promoter wants the help,
> mind you) with ideas, legwork in getting sponsors, marketing the race via
> grass roots methods, committing volunteer help. The concept of an
> adopt-a-race or race partnership is merely a simple structure in support of
> what some OBRA staff and promoters are asking for --and that is, action.
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

John Wilger

> On Feb 1, 2017, at 11:59 AM, Chad Sperry via OBRA wrote:
>
> Marek,
>
> I am bummed at your notion that I am holding riders hostage. That was rather rude statement. How about I put it to you this way. I am no longer willing to pay for other people to race out of my own pocket. Race numbers and sponsorships have dwindled dramatically BUT overhead, permitting, fuel, flaggers, equipment, etc has gone up. We used to draw 450 riders to the Cherry Blossom Cycling Classic and $10,000 in sponsorship. I made a little money when everything was said and done. Gorge Roubaix is considered a successful race now days for attendance and last year it drew half the numbers Cherry Blossom did and one third the sponsorship and I lost money on the racing portion of the event. I am not willing to donate my time AND money for other people to race their bikes. Call me a bad person, call me selfish, call me a hostage taker whatever you would like. I simply asked the community if there is going to be a bike race I need help and support. In the end we had $2000 in donations come in which is enough to cover costs and if attendance is good I might make as much per hour as your local Starbucks Barista. Of course the Barista does not own all their own equipment that they donate to the event to keep costs down, nor do they shoulder the financial risk, nor the safety of a couple hundred riders nor expose themselves from a liability stand point. Ultimately I am good if people don't want this event. But if people do I need help putting it on. Is that really that bad?

I have to admit, I���m kind of on Chad���s side on this one, although I can see the point being argued on both sides of the issue. Expecting a promotor to *lose* money so that we can race is���not realistic. And we can say, ���well, do more to get the right sponsors, etc,��� but the thing is I doubt most promotors are getting rich off of putting on OBRA races, and *we* are the ones who are losing when the races disappear. Perhaps entry fees could be raised to cover costs, but there are a lot of people who might be interested in attending that would have a hard time coughing up the extra cash for every race they want to enter; especially the younger crowd who are the future of our sport. On the other hand, there are some of us who *do* have a little more wiggle room in our budgets. Maybe it���s not ���fair��� that we should have to pay a little more to keep the rides we want to have, but it may be the solution that actually works. (Case in point: Gorge Roubaix :-> Note, however, that it���s not an event on my own calendar this year, so I���ve got no���uh���horse in the race. )

That said, is there a better way to manage that vs, having individual promotors naming their price and coming to the list each time for donations? Probably, yeah. What about a fund managed by OBRA that could be used as sort of an insurance program for promotors? Promotors could choose (on an event-by-event basis) to pay some small percentage of their profits into the pool in exchange for a guarantee that OBRA would cover (within some reasonable limit) any loss so that the promotors could at least know they will break even. Those of us in the community with a bit of extra disposable income could choose to donate into this fund as well (and perhaps the fund could be invested in some relatively-low-risk way to allow it to grow.) If it���s not something OBRA could manage directly, I wonder if there is an insurance company out there that could manage it on behalf of OBRA.

Anyway, just my 2 cents. I���m not at all sure what the laws/regulations around doing something like that would be, so maybe it���s a terrible idea. Just brainstorming.

���
John Wilger | +1 (971) 678-0999 | http://johnwilger.com

Marek Litinsky

Chad, you are not the party to blame here. It's the rest of us who wanted and allowed it to happen. There's perfectly fine race on Sunday that you organize and that's all we need. It should be epic, right? I'm gonna get shelled and arrive hour after first finishers. You're doing three of them this year. So good. It's just silly to require special race with multiple categories on Saturday when there's a race day after it.

And the way it happened is not long term solution and sets dangerous precedent.

> On Feb 1, 2017, at 11:59 AM, Chad Sperry wrote:
>
> Marek,
>
> I am bummed at your notion that I am holding riders hostage. That was rather rude statement. How about I put it to you this way. I am no longer willing to pay for other people to race out of my own pocket. Race numbers and sponsorships have dwindled dramatically BUT overhead, permitting, fuel, flaggers, equipment, etc has gone up. We used to draw 450 riders to the Cherry Blossom Cycling Classic and $10,000 in sponsorship. I made a little money when everything was said and done. Gorge Roubaix is considered a successful race now days for attendance and last year it drew half the numbers Cherry Blossom did and one third the sponsorship and I lost money on the racing portion of the event. I am not willing to donate my time AND money for other people to race their bikes. Call me a bad person, call me selfish, call me a hostage taker whatever you would like. I simply asked the community if there is going to be a bike race I need help and support. In the end we had $2000 in donations come in which is enough to cover costs and if attendance is good I might make as much per hour as your local Starbucks Barista. Of course the Barista does not own all their own equipment that they donate to the event to keep costs down, nor do they shoulder the financial risk, nor the safety of a couple hundred riders nor expose themselves from a liability stand point. Ultimately I am good if people don't want this event. But if people do I need help putting it on. Is that really that bad?
>
> Chad Sperry
> Breakaway Promotions
>
>
>> On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 11:06 AM, Marek Litinsky via OBRA wrote:
>> That's s terrible model. Are you saying that every promoter from now on has a possibility to hold entire OBRA hostage and ask for $5000 on top of race fees, sponsors etc? What if $5000 is not enough? Gimme $10000 then or I'm out and it's on you?
>>
>> > On Feb 1, 2017, at 9:35 AM, Norm Swygert via OBRA wrote:
>> >
>> > It's great that Chad found support for the Gorge Roubaix race and that it'll be happening this year. Among the other ideas being discussed for increasing road race participation, I wonder if we could take the Gorge Roubaix race revival as a model. Several teams pitched in with money and volunteering. Maybe this could be done pro-actively, wherein teams choose a race to support every year. They would commit to working with the promoter well in advance to ensure the success of the race. The teams would help the promoter with ideas for bringing on race sponsors (thereby reducing the likelihood of needing the teams to pitch in big sums of money), helping with out-reach to the community/towns along the course, drum up participation via grass roots marketing, race day entertainment/festivities, race reportage, and of course, volunteer/support for race setup, marshaling, tear-down, etc.
>> >
>> > As in the Gorge Roubaix example, 2-3 teams could align with a given race. That's a lot of help.
>> >
>> > I'm sure team involvement happens already in many ways, but raising the standard, evolving the expectations for Promoter-Team-Sponsor-Community partnership might be just the thing.
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > OBRA mailing list
>> > obra@list.obra.org
>> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Chad Sperry

Marek,

I am bummed at your notion that I am holding riders hostage. That was
rather rude statement. How about I put it to you this way. I am no longer
willing to pay for other people to race out of my own pocket. Race numbers
and sponsorships have dwindled dramatically BUT overhead, permitting, fuel,
flaggers, equipment, etc has gone up. We used to draw 450 riders to the
Cherry Blossom Cycling Classic and $10,000 in sponsorship. I made a little
money when everything was said and done. Gorge Roubaix is considered a
successful race now days for attendance and last year it drew half the
numbers Cherry Blossom did and one third the sponsorship and I lost money
on the racing portion of the event. I am not willing to donate my time AND
money for other people to race their bikes. Call me a bad person, call me
selfish, call me a hostage taker whatever you would like. I simply asked
the community if there is going to be a bike race I need help and support.
In the end we had $2000 in donations come in which is enough to cover costs
and if attendance is good I might make as much per hour as your local
Starbucks Barista. Of course the Barista does not own all their own
equipment that they donate to the event to keep costs down, nor do they
shoulder the financial risk, nor the safety of a couple hundred riders nor
expose themselves from a liability stand point. Ultimately I am good if
people don't want this event. But if people do I need help putting it on.
Is that really that bad?

Chad Sperry
Breakaway Promotions

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 11:06 AM, Marek Litinsky via OBRA wrote:

> That's s terrible model. Are you saying that every promoter from now on
> has a possibility to hold entire OBRA hostage and ask for $5000 on top of
> race fees, sponsors etc? What if $5000 is not enough? Gimme $10000 then or
> I'm out and it's on you?
>
> > On Feb 1, 2017, at 9:35 AM, Norm Swygert via OBRA
> wrote:
> >
> > It's great that Chad found support for the Gorge Roubaix race and that
> it'll be happening this year. Among the other ideas being discussed for
> increasing road race participation, I wonder if we could take the Gorge
> Roubaix race revival as a model. Several teams pitched in with money and
> volunteering. Maybe this could be done pro-actively, wherein teams choose a
> race to support every year. They would commit to working with the promoter
> well in advance to ensure the success of the race. The teams would help the
> promoter with ideas for bringing on race sponsors (thereby reducing the
> likelihood of needing the teams to pitch in big sums of money), helping
> with out-reach to the community/towns along the course, drum up
> participation via grass roots marketing, race day
> entertainment/festivities, race reportage, and of course, volunteer/support
> for race setup, marshaling, tear-down, etc.
> >
> > As in the Gorge Roubaix example, 2-3 teams could align with a given
> race. That's a lot of help.
> >
> > I'm sure team involvement happens already in many ways, but raising the
> standard, evolving the expectations for Promoter-Team-Sponsor-Community
> partnership might be just the thing.
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Marek Litinsky

I think it's one thing when teams become promoters and completely different thing for private promoter hitting racers for extra money to fill hole in the budget for just this one more time race. That's very dangerous precedent and very short term solution. What prevents any other promoter to do the same? Not even creating fund with OBRA for emergencies like that. You seem to not remember this was not an emergency. There was no race planned/promoted for that day. Some folks cried and Chad offered to make it happen for few extra thousands dollars on the top of race fees. That's not an emergency.

OBRA should consider establishing way to offset race costs by getting general sponsors with their names/brands on the all of the OBRA races. They are the only player big enough to do that. They have de facto all the races. They can and should advertise on all of them. Now obviously that would create friction with those very few people who organize races and already have sponsors such as Crusade and might not be interested in this model because they don't need help, but that doesn't mean it's not a way to go. Btw, this would be long term solution.

> On Feb 1, 2017, at 11:20 AM, Norm Swygert via OBRA wrote:
>
> Hi Marek --no, that was not what I wrote. I was expressly suggesting that teams might voluntarily support --in a pro-active way-- promoters/organizers so that races are less likely to get into jeopardy, less likely to need emergency and volunteer financial help at the last minute. Teams could help the promoter (only if the promoter wants the help, mind you) with ideas, legwork in getting sponsors, marketing the race via grass roots methods, committing volunteer help. The concept of an adopt-a-race or race partnership is merely a simple structure in support of what some OBRA staff and promoters are asking for --and that is, action.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Norm Swygert

Hi Marek --no, that was not what I wrote. I was expressly suggesting that teams might voluntarily support --in a pro-active way-- promoters/organizers so that races are less likely to get into jeopardy, less likely to need emergency and volunteer financial help at the last minute. Teams could help the promoter (only if the promoter wants the help, mind you) with ideas, legwork in getting sponsors, marketing the race via grass roots methods, committing volunteer help. The concept of an adopt-a-race or race partnership is merely a simple structure in support of what some OBRA staff and promoters are asking for --and that is, action.

Marek Litinsky

That's s terrible model. Are you saying that every promoter from now on has a possibility to hold entire OBRA hostage and ask for $5000 on top of race fees, sponsors etc? What if $5000 is not enough? Gimme $10000 then or I'm out and it's on you?

> On Feb 1, 2017, at 9:35 AM, Norm Swygert via OBRA wrote:
>
> It's great that Chad found support for the Gorge Roubaix race and that it'll be happening this year. Among the other ideas being discussed for increasing road race participation, I wonder if we could take the Gorge Roubaix race revival as a model. Several teams pitched in with money and volunteering. Maybe this could be done pro-actively, wherein teams choose a race to support every year. They would commit to working with the promoter well in advance to ensure the success of the race. The teams would help the promoter with ideas for bringing on race sponsors (thereby reducing the likelihood of needing the teams to pitch in big sums of money), helping with out-reach to the community/towns along the course, drum up participation via grass roots marketing, race day entertainment/festivities, race reportage, and of course, volunteer/support for race setup, marshaling, tear-down, etc.
>
> As in the Gorge Roubaix example, 2-3 teams could align with a given race. That's a lot of help.
>
> I'm sure team involvement happens already in many ways, but raising the standard, evolving the expectations for Promoter-Team-Sponsor-Community partnership might be just the thing.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

T. Kenji Sugahara

Scott and I have talked about moving things to Google.

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 12:13 AM, Jason Elstad via OBRA
wrote:
> Thank you for making that google doc. I wish these threads were easier to read, any one tech smart about the internets have a solution?
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

--
Kenji Sugahara
Executive Director
Oregon Bicycle Racing Association
Phone: 503-278-5550
http://www.obra.org

Norm Swygert

It's great that Chad found support for the Gorge Roubaix race and that it'll be happening this year. Among the other ideas being discussed for increasing road race participation, I wonder if we could take the Gorge Roubaix race revival as a model. Several teams pitched in with money and volunteering. Maybe this could be done pro-actively, wherein teams choose a race to support every year. They would commit to working with the promoter well in advance to ensure the success of the race. The teams would help the promoter with ideas for bringing on race sponsors (thereby reducing the likelihood of needing the teams to pitch in big sums of money), helping with out-reach to the community/towns along the course, drum up participation via grass roots marketing, race day entertainment/festivities, race reportage, and of course, volunteer/support for race setup, marshaling, tear-down, etc.

As in the Gorge Roubaix example, 2-3 teams could align with a given race. That's a lot of help.

I'm sure team involvement happens already in many ways, but raising the standard, evolving the expectations for Promoter-Team-Sponsor-Community partnership might be just the thing.

Zachary Goude

The solution would be to move the OBRA "chat" from a listserve to more of a
forum type of format. Either built in to the OBRA site or using an external
provider. Listserves are nice for getting out information, but not so much
for discourse. A subreddit would work, but that's not everyone's cup of
tea. There is already a portland cycling subreddit,
but its not terribly active and IMO
not quite the place for racing issues.

Just my thoughts.

~zach

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 12:13 AM, Jason Elstad via OBRA
wrote:

> Thank you for making that google doc. I wish these threads were easier to
> read, any one tech smart about the internets have a solution?
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Jason Elstad

Thank you for making that google doc. I wish these threads were easier to read, any one tech smart about the internets have a solution?

Quinn R Keogh

Reading friendly version of the first 16 posts in this thread, oldest to newest:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1atn1z4M1UDnm8C5m4Opcn2r4IxpPoS0NZCpjBMIw4b8/edit?usp=sharing

Erik Voldengen

Yes, it's too early to plug RondePDX, because the site hasn't been updated
yet for 2017. Not that it's happening anyway. I wouldn't know.

- Erik

On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 8:00 PM, Tyler's gmail via OBRA
wrote:

> That reminds me, is it too early to plug the not-a-race-race Ronde PDX in
> April where us robust folks will certainly fall off the front group of
> fanatics, but nonetheless enjoy the hills moments, perhaps many moments,
> later in the camaraderie of like-minded/skilled/capable/sized cycling
> enthusiasts just out for a good time? Roar! http://www.rondepdx.com
>
> Back to the OBRA sanctioned races, vote for change with your race entries
> and volunteer hours. Maybe I'm naive, but do we expect miracles in return
> for our measly membership and race fees? In 2017, I pledge to enter a race
> where I expect to contend ferociously with the trailing pack (i.e.,
> anything with hills), and volunteer to support a race. Bummed to see races
> dropped, but they gotta make sense for promoters to continue.
>
> Ok, for those smarter than I wishing I would crawl back in my hole, over
> and out... but watch out if you're at the back of the pack!
>
> --TT
>
> On Jan 31, 2017, at 8:22 PM, John Gill via OBRA
> wrote:
>
> Marek,
> I would like to offer my perspective as someone who has very different
> motivation from you but who still agrees that a Fondo type race structure
> would help the OBRA community.
>
> We both have had several of the same hobbies. As a teen, we both
> skateboarded. I liked it because it gave me a reason to hang out with my
> friends but I knew I would never get good at it. I spend countless hours on
> my skateboard and went through so many shoes from wearing them out, but
> never learned how to do anything other than basic flatland tricks. You were
> basically professional. We both race OBRA and while I know I will never
> race a cat 1/2 road race because I don't want to do the work it takes...you
> rode probably 10,000 miles during the snowpocalypse to be prepared to win
> 1/2 races.
>
> I honestly don't care about winning or how many people move from Oregon
> into pro racing. As a 36 year old father of 4 who works full time and was a
> pack-a-day smoking overweight couch potato 10 years ago, I have no
> delusions of grandeur and do not race to win.
>
> Rather, my motivation stems from the great community and camaraderie that
> cycling provides. That is it. Sure, there is the endorphin release you get
> from racing, the fun of trying to implement tactics and such, and the
> thrill of performing well, but at the end of the day I know it doesn't
> really matter. I spend money to race because I like the people I race with.
> That is it.
>
> Because of this, the multiple category system suits me. It is more fun to
> be part of a lame "slow" category that is not as challenging than to get
> shelled in a fast race and end up being lapped or spending several hours
> alone on the road (I can do that for free at home).
>
> However, I agree that for road racing a fondo type setup would be great!
> Race if you want to, hang out and chat if you want to. But I hope that you
> (and the promoters) don't forget that a large majority of the "racers" in
> OBRA are there for the experience, not the result.
>
> I think this is why cyclocross is such a success. It offers a low-risk way
> (like Ryan mentioned) to have fun. But more importantly it offers
> community. When I bought my first bike in 2000, it happened to be a $600
> cyclocross bike. I went to a short track race with my kids in Salem and the
> promoter / volunteer told me about OBRA and that my bike would be good to
> race on in the fall. So, I went to Battle at Barlow and was in the back of
> the beginner category, but had fun. If there was no beginner category, I
> would have never gone back. Being able to race in a low-risk race that
> followed with people standing around talking about it was fun. Then, as I
> started making friends at the races, I looked forward to going to the
> races. Then I found a team that had the beer, the tent, the chairs, and the
> fun people. For several years, it wasn't about racing...the race was an
> excuse to show up and have fun with my friends before and after the race.
>
> I guess what I am saying is that if you want to make elite athletes, then
> yes...we probably need to make a national level program to find talented
> kids, put them into focused training, get sponsorship money to fund the
> program and make it very hard. But, if we want to get as many people into
> the races as possible making it fun is an important factor to not forget.
> That is why more people go to fondos and centuries than races. Because they
> are fun. There are snacks and you can chat at the stops, there is a
> cyclocross-like party at the end, and it is something people look forward
> to. Look at Cycle Oregon. They seem to sell-out every year and do not seem
> to be suffering from the same dropping entries that racing is.
>
> Just an alternate opinion on the topic.
> John
>
>
>
> Thank you, --tyler
> On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 12:33 PM, Marek Litinsky via OBRA <
> obra@list.obra.org> wrote:
>
>> Ryan, you totally hit the mark on all the points except me winning all
>> fondos. As soon as other racers who put in the work in training would line
>> up I'll be just the pack fodder.
>>
>> To me OBRA and usac racing (and let's not pretend that OBRA on principle
>> does it hardest to comply with usac rules verbatim) should come with
>> warning :HAVE FUN, BUT PLEASE DON'T SHOW INTEREST IN ANY WORLD CLASS RACING
>> ON TV AROUND THE WORLD BECAUSE WE WORK ACTIVELY ON LOWERING STANDARDS OF
>> COMPETING. YOU WILL BE DISAPPOINTED.
>>
>> This country has the easiest access to bikes. Racing is way way beyond
>> accessible (that's THE problem btw.) and on top of that boasts talent pool
>> of whopping 350 millions of potential racers. Why is there only such a low
>> number of successful road pros out there? Why can't pinnacle of US cross
>> racing crack top five in any world race, heck almost not even top 20?
>>
>> The fault is not of course on those racers that do get there. Stephen
>> Hyde, Tejay Van Gardener etc are undoubtedly doing thrir best and this is
>> not accusation of any racer out there.
>>
>> What is failing is this "race" system wit its ongoing race to the bottom,
>> creating more categories, more separation between racers and failing to
>> create any heroes and idols. Racing is hard. You need a dream with hero in
>> it and it's not cat 4 master 35-37. I don't know if you remember being a
>> kid or if you even raced as a kid but I'm sure you didn't start because you
>> wanted to be as good cat 4 raced as possible. It's the top level of the
>> sport that creates participation and not the other way.
>>
>> Top athletes should be awarded not vilified for taking it too seriously.
>> Juniors and upcoming talent (aka cat 3 crowd) should race with the rest of
>> the adults to progress with them. That's why I believe we should advocate
>> for combine fields for all senior men and women. Not total beginners. Not
>> for young juniors. And not for Masters.
>>
>> Also if racing as it should be is too aggressive and hard for you please
>> check out what Ryan actually does with omtm.cc
>>
>> No teams, no numbers, no money, no glory. Just riding for getting you
>> kicks in with people who like the same type of fun. It's so much fun and
>> those are my favorite rides of the year. It's not bike racing though.
>>
>> > On Jan 31, 2017, at 11:32 AM, Ryan Francesconi via OBRA <
>> obra@list.obra.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > Thought I'd throw my hat into the ring of lions that is the OBRA chat
>> list here... A lot of you are on the inside of this issue in that you want
>> to support road racing, or you're a promoter, or you're an official. I
>> haven't followed this thread closely, but I thought I'd give you the
>> perspective of someone who more or less quit racing here for a number of
>> these speculated issues and started organizing the sorts of rides that
>> maybe directly compete with your numbers. I must say, I do support OBRA,
>> and even though I didn't race last year I still signed up because of this.
>> >
>> > Basically for me in comes down to a 3 part ratio of risk, reward, and
>> energy loss/gain.
>> >
>> > When I evaluate whether to do an event, I'm more or less calculating
>> these three things. If the number is in the negative I do something else.
>> >
>> > I've topped out in all my cats. I'm not going higher than where I am.
>> In fact to even be IN the race for A's/123's/etc, I have to work damn hard
>> for most of the year. I like working hard, so that's ok. But, reward is now
>> gone. No more upgrades, and getting to this point I think I won a grand
>> total of a pair of socks. The only race I actually won I didn't get
>> anything at all. Winning for winning sake is meaningless to me, especially
>> if it involves paying to play. That is in the area of energy loss.
>> >
>> > Road race routes are terribly boring to me due to factors outside of
>> your control. Permitting is a pain in the ass -- Not to mention 25c was an
>> evolutionary mistake.
>> >
>> > Road racing is inherently more dangerous than CX. This is one reason
>> you find numbers higher in CX. Less risk = more fun. Everyone is so serious
>> in road races. Being serious = boring. MTB is pretty damn dangerous too, so
>> we'll just ignore that issue for the moment.
>> >
>> > Road racing is horrible in regard to emissions. 3 vehicles per field
>> driving 20mph for 3 hours? No. Races such as PIR or Tabor are better suited
>> to OBRA. We all want to be in a peloton cruising at 30mph through the Alps,
>> but it's simply not cost or environmentally responsible to do this. I
>> cannot approve of professional road racing for this reason as well. (Though
>> I'm a fan of course)
>> >
>> > To race here you must devote a large part of your day, or in many
>> cases, the day before AND the day after. You often must DRIVE to the start
>> of the race and then DRIVE home. Then you must lie around the following day
>> watching reruns of the Giro stages wondering what COULD OF BEEN.
>> >
>> > In fact, the amount of reasons TO race are surprisingly few:
>> > 1. ?
>> > 2. ?
>> > 3. ?
>> >
>> > Jordan asked, what are *YOU* doing for your community in regard to this
>> issue. Well, for me I started offering what I felt was missing from OBRA. A
>> community that doesn't judge you or rank you. That doesn't have cliques.
>> That doesn't have teams. That doesn't cost anything. That is only about
>> having fun on your bike and seeing some incredible nature and forgotten
>> history from the seat of your bike. That will challenge you and will drop
>> you. (sorry, but we're racers after all).
>> >
>> > In terms of OBRA, I have a hard time seeing a sustainable model there -
>> that's why it's shifting and Kenji is more focused on statewide development
>> issues. Chad mentioned that racing is market driven. Well, bike riding
>> isn't a business for me. It's a passion. It's not governed by rules and
>> regulations. It's guided by freedom and joy. I don't find these things so
>> easily in a race especially if I get yelled at for going over a yellow line.
>> >
>> > I like riding hard and pushing my limits. Yes, I will agree that during
>> a race I will push harder and farther than I thought I could. That is
>> certainly an appeal for some. But for me, that is a small part of the ratio.
>> >
>> > I agree with Marek that the fondo model is better for amateur racing.
>> But of course, Marek is still going to win said fondo and you're not. So...
>> >
>> > One quick note about MTB racing. I love riding trails the most. My
>> favorite thing. But, *Mountain Bike Racing* removes all the things that I
>> love about *Mountain Bike Riding*.
>> >
>> > Cheers!
>> > Ryan
>> >
>> > PS. CX is still rad by my estimation. That's why people still do that.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > OBRA mailing list
>> > obra@list.obra.org
>> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

Tyler's gmail

That reminds me, is it too early to plug the not-a-race-race Ronde PDX in April where us robust folks will certainly fall off the front group of fanatics, but nonetheless enjoy the hills moments, perhaps many moments, later in the camaraderie of like-minded/skilled/capable/sized cycling enthusiasts just out for a good time? Roar! http://www.rondepdx.com

Back to the OBRA sanctioned races, vote for change with your race entries and volunteer hours. Maybe I'm naive, but do we expect miracles in return for our measly membership and race fees? In 2017, I pledge to enter a race where I expect to contend ferociously with the trailing pack (i.e., anything with hills), and volunteer to support a race. Bummed to see races dropped, but they gotta make sense for promoters to continue.

Ok, for those smarter than I wishing I would crawl back in my hole, over and out... but watch out if you're at the back of the pack!

--TT

On Jan 31, 2017, at 8:22 PM, John Gill via OBRA wrote:

Marek,
I would like to offer my perspective as someone who has very different motivation from you but who still agrees that a Fondo type race structure would help the OBRA community.

We both have had several of the same hobbies. As a teen, we both skateboarded. I liked it because it gave me a reason to hang out with my friends but I knew I would never get good at it. I spend countless hours on my skateboard and went through so many shoes from wearing them out, but never learned how to do anything other than basic flatland tricks. You were basically professional. We both race OBRA and while I know I will never race a cat 1/2 road race because I don't want to do the work it takes...you rode probably 10,000 miles during the snowpocalypse to be prepared to win 1/2 races.

I honestly don't care about winning or how many people move from Oregon into pro racing. As a 36 year old father of 4 who works full time and was a pack-a-day smoking overweight couch potato 10 years ago, I have no delusions of grandeur and do not race to win.

Rather, my motivation stems from the great community and camaraderie that cycling provides. That is it. Sure, there is the endorphin release you get from racing, the fun of trying to implement tactics and such, and the thrill of performing well, but at the end of the day I know it doesn't really matter. I spend money to race because I like the people I race with. That is it.

Because of this, the multiple category system suits me. It is more fun to be part of a lame "slow" category that is not as challenging than to get shelled in a fast race and end up being lapped or spending several hours alone on the road (I can do that for free at home).

However, I agree that for road racing a fondo type setup would be great! Race if you want to, hang out and chat if you want to. But I hope that you (and the promoters) don't forget that a large majority of the "racers" in OBRA are there for the experience, not the result.

I think this is why cyclocross is such a success. It offers a low-risk way (like Ryan mentioned) to have fun. But more importantly it offers community. When I bought my first bike in 2000, it happened to be a $600 cyclocross bike. I went to a short track race with my kids in Salem and the promoter / volunteer told me about OBRA and that my bike would be good to race on in the fall. So, I went to Battle at Barlow and was in the back of the beginner category, but had fun. If there was no beginner category, I would have never gone back. Being able to race in a low-risk race that followed with people standing around talking about it was fun. Then, as I started making friends at the races, I looked forward to going to the races. Then I found a team that had the beer, the tent, the chairs, and the fun people. For several years, it wasn't about racing...the race was an excuse to show up and have fun with my friends before and after the race.

I guess what I am saying is that if you want to make elite athletes, then yes...we probably need to make a national level program to find talented kids, put them into focused training, get sponsorship money to fund the program and make it very hard. But, if we want to get as many people into the races as possible making it fun is an important factor to not forget. That is why more people go to fondos and centuries than races. Because they are fun. There are snacks and you can chat at the stops, there is a cyclocross-like party at the end, and it is something people look forward to. Look at Cycle Oregon. They seem to sell-out every year and do not seem to be suffering from the same dropping entries that racing is.

Just an alternate opinion on the topic.
John

Thank you, --tyler
> On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 12:33 PM, Marek Litinsky via OBRA wrote:
> Ryan, you totally hit the mark on all the points except me winning all fondos. As soon as other racers who put in the work in training would line up I'll be just the pack fodder.
>
> To me OBRA and usac racing (and let's not pretend that OBRA on principle does it hardest to comply with usac rules verbatim) should come with warning :HAVE FUN, BUT PLEASE DON'T SHOW INTEREST IN ANY WORLD CLASS RACING ON TV AROUND THE WORLD BECAUSE WE WORK ACTIVELY ON LOWERING STANDARDS OF COMPETING. YOU WILL BE DISAPPOINTED.
>
> This country has the easiest access to bikes. Racing is way way beyond accessible (that's THE problem btw.) and on top of that boasts talent pool of whopping 350 millions of potential racers. Why is there only such a low number of successful road pros out there? Why can't pinnacle of US cross racing crack top five in any world race, heck almost not even top 20?
>
> The fault is not of course on those racers that do get there. Stephen Hyde, Tejay Van Gardener etc are undoubtedly doing thrir best and this is not accusation of any racer out there.
>
> What is failing is this "race" system wit its ongoing race to the bottom, creating more categories, more separation between racers and failing to create any heroes and idols. Racing is hard. You need a dream with hero in it and it's not cat 4 master 35-37. I don't know if you remember being a kid or if you even raced as a kid but I'm sure you didn't start because you wanted to be as good cat 4 raced as possible. It's the top level of the sport that creates participation and not the other way.
>
> Top athletes should be awarded not vilified for taking it too seriously. Juniors and upcoming talent (aka cat 3 crowd) should race with the rest of the adults to progress with them. That's why I believe we should advocate for combine fields for all senior men and women. Not total beginners. Not for young juniors. And not for Masters.
>
> Also if racing as it should be is too aggressive and hard for you please check out what Ryan actually does with omtm.cc
>
> No teams, no numbers, no money, no glory. Just riding for getting you kicks in with people who like the same type of fun. It's so much fun and those are my favorite rides of the year. It's not bike racing though.
>
> > On Jan 31, 2017, at 11:32 AM, Ryan Francesconi via OBRA wrote:
> >
> > Thought I'd throw my hat into the ring of lions that is the OBRA chat list here... A lot of you are on the inside of this issue in that you want to support road racing, or you're a promoter, or you're an official. I haven't followed this thread closely, but I thought I'd give you the perspective of someone who more or less quit racing here for a number of these speculated issues and started organizing the sorts of rides that maybe directly compete with your numbers. I must say, I do support OBRA, and even though I didn't race last year I still signed up because of this.
> >
> > Basically for me in comes down to a 3 part ratio of risk, reward, and energy loss/gain.
> >
> > When I evaluate whether to do an event, I'm more or less calculating these three things. If the number is in the negative I do something else.
> >
> > I've topped out in all my cats. I'm not going higher than where I am. In fact to even be IN the race for A's/123's/etc, I have to work damn hard for most of the year. I like working hard, so that's ok. But, reward is now gone. No more upgrades, and getting to this point I think I won a grand total of a pair of socks. The only race I actually won I didn't get anything at all. Winning for winning sake is meaningless to me, especially if it involves paying to play. That is in the area of energy loss.
> >
> > Road race routes are terribly boring to me due to factors outside of your control. Permitting is a pain in the ass -- Not to mention 25c was an evolutionary mistake.
> >
> > Road racing is inherently more dangerous than CX. This is one reason you find numbers higher in CX. Less risk = more fun. Everyone is so serious in road races. Being serious = boring. MTB is pretty damn dangerous too, so we'll just ignore that issue for the moment.
> >
> > Road racing is horrible in regard to emissions. 3 vehicles per field driving 20mph for 3 hours? No. Races such as PIR or Tabor are better suited to OBRA. We all want to be in a peloton cruising at 30mph through the Alps, but it's simply not cost or environmentally responsible to do this. I cannot approve of professional road racing for this reason as well. (Though I'm a fan of course)
> >
> > To race here you must devote a large part of your day, or in many cases, the day before AND the day after. You often must DRIVE to the start of the race and then DRIVE home. Then you must lie around the following day watching reruns of the Giro stages wondering what COULD OF BEEN.
> >
> > In fact, the amount of reasons TO race are surprisingly few:
> > 1. ?
> > 2. ?
> > 3. ?
> >
> > Jordan asked, what are *YOU* doing for your community in regard to this issue. Well, for me I started offering what I felt was missing from OBRA. A community that doesn't judge you or rank you. That doesn't have cliques. That doesn't have teams. That doesn't cost anything. That is only about having fun on your bike and seeing some incredible nature and forgotten history from the seat of your bike. That will challenge you and will drop you. (sorry, but we're racers after all).
> >
> > In terms of OBRA, I have a hard time seeing a sustainable model there - that's why it's shifting and Kenji is more focused on statewide development issues. Chad mentioned that racing is market driven. Well, bike riding isn't a business for me. It's a passion. It's not governed by rules and regulations. It's guided by freedom and joy. I don't find these things so easily in a race especially if I get yelled at for going over a yellow line.
> >
> > I like riding hard and pushing my limits. Yes, I will agree that during a race I will push harder and farther than I thought I could. That is certainly an appeal for some. But for me, that is a small part of the ratio.
> >
> > I agree with Marek that the fondo model is better for amateur racing. But of course, Marek is still going to win said fondo and you're not. So...
> >
> > One quick note about MTB racing. I love riding trails the most. My favorite thing. But, *Mountain Bike Racing* removes all the things that I love about *Mountain Bike Riding*.
> >
> > Cheers!
> > Ryan
> >
> > PS. CX is still rad by my estimation. That's why people still do that.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

John Gill

Marek,
I would like to offer my perspective as someone who has very different
motivation from you but who still agrees that a Fondo type race structure
would help the OBRA community.

We both have had several of the same hobbies. As a teen, we both
skateboarded. I liked it because it gave me a reason to hang out with my
friends but I knew I would never get good at it. I spend countless hours on
my skateboard and went through so many shoes from wearing them out, but
never learned how to do anything other than basic flatland tricks. You were
basically professional. We both race OBRA and while I know I will never
race a cat 1/2 road race because I don't want to do the work it takes...you
rode probably 10,000 miles during the snowpocalypse to be prepared to win
1/2 races.

I honestly don't care about winning or how many people move from Oregon
into pro racing. As a 36 year old father of 4 who works full time and was a
pack-a-day smoking overweight couch potato 10 years ago, I have no
delusions of grandeur and do not race to win.

Rather, my motivation stems from the great community and camaraderie that
cycling provides. That is it. Sure, there is the endorphin release you get
from racing, the fun of trying to implement tactics and such, and the
thrill of performing well, but at the end of the day I know it doesn't
really matter. I spend money to race because I like the people I race with.
That is it.

Because of this, the multiple category system suits me. It is more fun to
be part of a lame "slow" category that is not as challenging than to get
shelled in a fast race and end up being lapped or spending several hours
alone on the road (I can do that for free at home).

However, I agree that for road racing a fondo type setup would be great!
Race if you want to, hang out and chat if you want to. But I hope that you
(and the promoters) don't forget that a large majority of the "racers" in
OBRA are there for the experience, not the result.

I think this is why cyclocross is such a success. It offers a low-risk way
(like Ryan mentioned) to have fun. But more importantly it offers
community. When I bought my first bike in 2000, it happened to be a $600
cyclocross bike. I went to a short track race with my kids in Salem and the
promoter / volunteer told me about OBRA and that my bike would be good to
race on in the fall. So, I went to Battle at Barlow and was in the back of
the beginner category, but had fun. If there was no beginner category, I
would have never gone back. Being able to race in a low-risk race that
followed with people standing around talking about it was fun. Then, as I
started making friends at the races, I looked forward to going to the
races. Then I found a team that had the beer, the tent, the chairs, and the
fun people. For several years, it wasn't about racing...the race was an
excuse to show up and have fun with my friends before and after the race.

I guess what I am saying is that if you want to make elite athletes, then
yes...we probably need to make a national level program to find talented
kids, put them into focused training, get sponsorship money to fund the
program and make it very hard. But, if we want to get as many people into
the races as possible making it fun is an important factor to not forget.
That is why more people go to fondos and centuries than races. Because they
are fun. There are snacks and you can chat at the stops, there is a
cyclocross-like party at the end, and it is something people look forward
to. Look at Cycle Oregon. They seem to sell-out every year and do not seem
to be suffering from the same dropping entries that racing is.

Just an alternate opinion on the topic.
John

On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 12:33 PM, Marek Litinsky via OBRA <
obra@list.obra.org> wrote:

> Ryan, you totally hit the mark on all the points except me winning all
> fondos. As soon as other racers who put in the work in training would line
> up I'll be just the pack fodder.
>
> To me OBRA and usac racing (and let's not pretend that OBRA on principle
> does it hardest to comply with usac rules verbatim) should come with
> warning :HAVE FUN, BUT PLEASE DON'T SHOW INTEREST IN ANY WORLD CLASS RACING
> ON TV AROUND THE WORLD BECAUSE WE WORK ACTIVELY ON LOWERING STANDARDS OF
> COMPETING. YOU WILL BE DISAPPOINTED.
>
> This country has the easiest access to bikes. Racing is way way beyond
> accessible (that's THE problem btw.) and on top of that boasts talent pool
> of whopping 350 millions of potential racers. Why is there only such a low
> number of successful road pros out there? Why can't pinnacle of US cross
> racing crack top five in any world race, heck almost not even top 20?
>
> The fault is not of course on those racers that do get there. Stephen
> Hyde, Tejay Van Gardener etc are undoubtedly doing thrir best and this is
> not accusation of any racer out there.
>
> What is failing is this "race" system wit its ongoing race to the bottom,
> creating more categories, more separation between racers and failing to
> create any heroes and idols. Racing is hard. You need a dream with hero in
> it and it's not cat 4 master 35-37. I don't know if you remember being a
> kid or if you even raced as a kid but I'm sure you didn't start because you
> wanted to be as good cat 4 raced as possible. It's the top level of the
> sport that creates participation and not the other way.
>
> Top athletes should be awarded not vilified for taking it too seriously.
> Juniors and upcoming talent (aka cat 3 crowd) should race with the rest of
> the adults to progress with them. That's why I believe we should advocate
> for combine fields for all senior men and women. Not total beginners. Not
> for young juniors. And not for Masters.
>
> Also if racing as it should be is too aggressive and hard for you please
> check out what Ryan actually does with omtm.cc
>
> No teams, no numbers, no money, no glory. Just riding for getting you
> kicks in with people who like the same type of fun. It's so much fun and
> those are my favorite rides of the year. It's not bike racing though.
>
> > On Jan 31, 2017, at 11:32 AM, Ryan Francesconi via OBRA <
> obra@list.obra.org> wrote:
> >
> > Thought I'd throw my hat into the ring of lions that is the OBRA chat
> list here... A lot of you are on the inside of this issue in that you want
> to support road racing, or you're a promoter, or you're an official. I
> haven't followed this thread closely, but I thought I'd give you the
> perspective of someone who more or less quit racing here for a number of
> these speculated issues and started organizing the sorts of rides that
> maybe directly compete with your numbers. I must say, I do support OBRA,
> and even though I didn't race last year I still signed up because of this.
> >
> > Basically for me in comes down to a 3 part ratio of risk, reward, and
> energy loss/gain.
> >
> > When I evaluate whether to do an event, I'm more or less calculating
> these three things. If the number is in the negative I do something else.
> >
> > I've topped out in all my cats. I'm not going higher than where I am. In
> fact to even be IN the race for A's/123's/etc, I have to work damn hard for
> most of the year. I like working hard, so that's ok. But, reward is now
> gone. No more upgrades, and getting to this point I think I won a grand
> total of a pair of socks. The only race I actually won I didn't get
> anything at all. Winning for winning sake is meaningless to me, especially
> if it involves paying to play. That is in the area of energy loss.
> >
> > Road race routes are terribly boring to me due to factors outside of
> your control. Permitting is a pain in the ass -- Not to mention 25c was an
> evolutionary mistake.
> >
> > Road racing is inherently more dangerous than CX. This is one reason you
> find numbers higher in CX. Less risk = more fun. Everyone is so serious in
> road races. Being serious = boring. MTB is pretty damn dangerous too, so
> we'll just ignore that issue for the moment.
> >
> > Road racing is horrible in regard to emissions. 3 vehicles per field
> driving 20mph for 3 hours? No. Races such as PIR or Tabor are better suited
> to OBRA. We all want to be in a peloton cruising at 30mph through the Alps,
> but it's simply not cost or environmentally responsible to do this. I
> cannot approve of professional road racing for this reason as well. (Though
> I'm a fan of course)
> >
> > To race here you must devote a large part of your day, or in many cases,
> the day before AND the day after. You often must DRIVE to the start of the
> race and then DRIVE home. Then you must lie around the following day
> watching reruns of the Giro stages wondering what COULD OF BEEN.
> >
> > In fact, the amount of reasons TO race are surprisingly few:
> > 1. ?
> > 2. ?
> > 3. ?
> >
> > Jordan asked, what are *YOU* doing for your community in regard to this
> issue. Well, for me I started offering what I felt was missing from OBRA. A
> community that doesn't judge you or rank you. That doesn't have cliques.
> That doesn't have teams. That doesn't cost anything. That is only about
> having fun on your bike and seeing some incredible nature and forgotten
> history from the seat of your bike. That will challenge you and will drop
> you. (sorry, but we're racers after all).
> >
> > In terms of OBRA, I have a hard time seeing a sustainable model there -
> that's why it's shifting and Kenji is more focused on statewide development
> issues. Chad mentioned that racing is market driven. Well, bike riding
> isn't a business for me. It's a passion. It's not governed by rules and
> regulations. It's guided by freedom and joy. I don't find these things so
> easily in a race especially if I get yelled at for going over a yellow line.
> >
> > I like riding hard and pushing my limits. Yes, I will agree that during
> a race I will push harder and farther than I thought I could. That is
> certainly an appeal for some. But for me, that is a small part of the ratio.
> >
> > I agree with Marek that the fondo model is better for amateur racing.
> But of course, Marek is still going to win said fondo and you're not. So...
> >
> > One quick note about MTB racing. I love riding trails the most. My
> favorite thing. But, *Mountain Bike Racing* removes all the things that I
> love about *Mountain Bike Riding*.
> >
> > Cheers!
> > Ryan
> >
> > PS. CX is still rad by my estimation. That's why people still do that.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Marek Litinsky

Yup. That was National Championship. In races comparable to our Crusades there are six categories with about 220 people racing in all categories combined.

It's run by promoters who utilizes general sponsors of Czech equivalent of OBRA and the local sponsors. That plus tv rights. National/State (Czech Republic is just one state) racing association has general sponsors and requirements on how to showcase them on all events they officiate and run. That in return can translate in negotiating power with sponsors.

> On Jan 31, 2017, at 1:48 PM, craig austin wrote:
>
> So Marek, there were 50 total racers at the Czech state (national?) championship.
>
> You promoters, tell me how high entry fees would have to be to make that one pencil out.
>
>> On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 1:29 PM, Marek Litinsky via OBRA wrote:
>> Just to put this myth to perspective with reality.
>>
>> About Czech Republic that has I believe third or fourth highest amount of medals from Worlds.
>>
>> There are TOTAL 6 categories on state level races. INCLUDING all kids, junior a gender categories. Not six categories for kids, six categories for adults etc. SIX categories total. Fractured fields coddle and encourage mediocrity.
>>
>> Now to the participation numbers. For the Czech Republic 2917 state championship there was only ONE combined field for U23 with elite. Women are just called women in results. Just one field for every gender. That's TWO categories combined for whole entire championship weekend. How many joke categories are at US championship race? 20? 40?
>>
>> In men 27 men finished and 32 started.
>> In women's race 18 started and 17 finished.
>>
>> That's the system that brings you Zdenek Stybar and Katerina Nash as a result.
>>
>> It's popular with viewers and fans but when it's done right it's so hard you can't pretend to race like everybody around here so in the end only true devotees actually race. Many many thousands have fun riding bikes. Racers race. I was racing many road races with 120 kids in my category. In cross there would be dozen of them because cross is so hard and cold kids are discouraged from it in the early years of their racing. Not exactly born in the muddy off camber. But then again I don't know Belgium racing culture that intimately. Or almost at all to be honest
>>
>>> On Jan 31, 2017, at 1:03 PM, Matt Martel via OBRA wrote:
>>>
>>> Ryan,
>>>
>>> "...literally born off-camber in the mud"! I love that one! I'll be using it and not giving you the credit! :)
>>>
>>> Matt
>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 12:52 PM, Ryan Francesconi via OBRA wrote:
>>>> I can easily see why American cross racers don't crack the euro top 5's except rarely. Cycling on natural surfaces in the USA is a bickering war between user groups and is largely illegal. Ironically, where do kids learn to ride on dirt? Kids need paths that have NO CARS on them. NWTA's 'Take a kid mountain biking day' is only one day a year, and the parents must DRIVE the bikes to cascade locks to ride a trail that is beginner friendly. HUH?
>>>>
>>>> No fkn chance against Wout or MVDP who were literally born off-camber in the mud.
>>>>
>>>> Sure, a scene like Portland is known internationally for its inclusionary "grass roots" racing, but yet there is *nowhere at all* to actually practice cross. Gateway green will be a first here, and I'm quite interested to see what else comes to the table in regard to the Offroad cycling master plan. I hold out some amount of hope! For the children!
>>>>
>>>> Countries like Belguim and Netherlands (and even Czech rep.) (whom dominate all UCI cx events) have a mainstream culture relationship to cx. It's a national sport, Like NFL is here. Imagine if there was the same amount of resources given to cycling as there is to little league football. It's really a mind-fk when you go to Belguim and see the "fans" that show up at these races. Wow!
>>>>
>>>> The questions and answers are obvious, but the solution is not.
>>>>
>>>> The real solution lies deep down in the dark depths of the US automotive industry lobby. If you really want change, the actions required are so much deeper than anyone possibly imagines. They want kids to DRIVE at 16 not ride a bike.
>>>>
>>>> Ryan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: "Marek Litinsky"
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2017 3:33pm
>>>> To: "Ryan Francesconi" , obra@list.obra.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Road Racing / Diminishing interest / etc
>>>>
>>>> Ryan, you totally hit the mark on all the points except me winning all fondos. As soon as other racers who put in the work in training would line up I'll be just the pack fodder.
>>>>
>>>> To me OBRA and usac racing (and let's not pretend that OBRA on principle does it hardest to comply with usac rules verbatim) should come with warning :HAVE FUN, BUT PLEASE DON'T SHOW INTEREST IN ANY WORLD CLASS RACING ON TV AROUND THE WORLD BECAUSE WE WORK ACTIVELY ON LOWERING STANDARDS OF COMPETING. YOU WILL BE DISAPPOINTED.
>>>>
>>>> This country has the easiest access to bikes. Racing is way way beyond accessible (that's THE problem btw.) and on top of that boasts talent pool of whopping 350 millions of potential racers. Why is there only such a low number of successful road pros out there? Why can't pinnacle of US cross racing crack top five in any world race, heck almost not even top 20?
>>>>
>>>> The fault is not of course on those racers that do get there. Stephen Hyde, Tejay Van Gardener etc are undoubtedly doing thrir best and this is not accusation of any racer out there.
>>>>
>>>> What is failing is this "race" system wit its ongoing race to the bottom, creating more categories, more separation between racers and failing to create any heroes and idols. Racing is hard. You need a dream with hero in it and it's not cat 4 master 35-37. I don't know if you remember being a kid or if you even raced as a kid but I'm sure you didn't start because you wanted to be as good cat 4 raced as possible. It's the top level of the sport that creates participation and not the other way.
>>>>
>>>> Top athletes should be awarded not vilified for taking it too seriously. Juniors and upcoming talent (aka cat 3 crowd) should race with the rest of the adults to progress with them. That's why I believe we should advocate for combine fields for all senior men and women. Not total beginners. Not for young juniors. And not for Masters.
>>>>
>>>> Also if racing as it should be is too aggressive and hard for you please check out what Ryan actually does with omtm.cc
>>>>
>>>> No teams, no numbers, no money, no glory. Just riding for getting you kicks in with people who like the same type of fun. It's so much fun and those are my favorite rides of the year. It's not bike racing though.
>>>>
>>>> > On Jan 31, 2017, at 11:32 AM, Ryan Francesconi via OBRA wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Thought I'd throw my hat into the ring of lions that is the OBRA chat list here... A lot of you are on the inside of this issue in that you want to support road racing, or you're a promoter, or you're an official. I haven't followed this thread closely, but I thought I'd give you the perspective of someone who more or less quit racing here for a number of these speculated issues and started organizing the sorts of rides that maybe directly compete with your numbers. I must say, I do support OBRA, and even though I didn't race last year I still signed up because of this.
>>>> >
>>>> > Basically for me in comes down to a 3 part ratio of risk, reward, and energy loss/gain.
>>>> >
>>>> > When I evaluate whether to do an event, I'm more or less calculating these three things. If the number is in the negative I do something else.
>>>> >
>>>> > I've topped out in all my cats. I'm not going higher than where I am. In fact to even be IN the race for A's/123's/etc, I have to work damn hard for most of the year. I like working hard, so that's ok. But, reward is now gone. No more upgrades, and getting to this point I think I won a grand total of a pair of socks. The only race I actually won I didn't get anything at all. Winning for winning sake is meaningless to me, especially if it involves paying to play. That is in the area of energy loss.
>>>> >
>>>> > Road race routes are terribly boring to me due to factors outside of your control. Permitting is a pain in the ass -- Not to mention 25c was an evolutionary mistake.
>>>> >
>>>> > Road racing is inherently more dangerous than CX. This is one reason you find numbers higher in CX. Less risk = more fun. Everyone is so serious in road races. Being serious = boring. MTB is pretty damn dangerous too, so we'll just ignore that issue for the moment.
>>>> >
>>>> > Road racing is horrible in regard to emissions. 3 vehicles per field driving 20mph for 3 hours? No. Races such as PIR or Tabor are better suited to OBRA. We all want to be in a peloton cruising at 30mph through the Alps, but it's simply not cost or environmentally responsible to do this. I cannot approve of professional road racing for this reason as well. (Though I'm a fan of course)
>>>> >
>>>> > To race here you must devote a large part of your day, or in many cases, the day before AND the day after. You often must DRIVE to the start of the race and then DRIVE home. Then you must lie around the following day watching reruns of the Giro stages wondering what COULD OF BEEN.
>>>> >
>>>> > In fact, the amount of reasons TO race are surprisingly few:
>>>> > 1. ?
>>>> > 2. ?
>>>> > 3. ?
>>>> >
>>>> > Jordan asked, what are *YOU* doing for your community in regard to this issue. Well, for me I started offering what I felt was missing from OBRA. A community that doesn't judge you or rank you. That doesn't have cliques. That doesn't have teams. That doesn't cost anything. That is only about having fun on your bike and seeing some incredible nature and forgotten history from the seat of your bike. That will challenge you and will drop you. (sorry, but we're racers after all).
>>>> >
>>>> > In terms of OBRA, I have a hard time seeing a sustainable model there - that's why it's shifting and Kenji is more focused on statewide development issues. Chad mentioned that racing is market driven. Well, bike riding isn't a business for me. It's a passion. It's not governed by rules and regulations. It's guided by freedom and joy. I don't find these things so easily in a race especially if I get yelled at for going over a yellow line.
>>>> >
>>>> > I like riding hard and pushing my limits. Yes, I will agree that during a race I will push harder and farther than I thought I could. That is certainly an appeal for some. But for me, that is a small part of the ratio.
>>>> >
>>>> > I agree with Marek that the fondo model is better for amateur racing. But of course, Marek is still going to win said fondo and you're not. So...
>>>> >
>>>> > One quick note about MTB racing. I love riding trails the most. My favorite thing. But, *Mountain Bike Racing* removes all the things that I love about *Mountain Bike Riding*.
>>>> >
>>>> > Cheers!
>>>> > Ryan
>>>> >
>>>> > PS. CX is still rad by my estimation. That's why people still do that.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > OBRA mailing list
>>>> > obra@list.obra.org
>>>> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>>> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> OBRA mailing list
>>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>

Ryan Francesconi

Cat 3 road racing is super fun and safe!
[ http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/amateur-racer-deftly-avoids-tumbling-off-bridge-in-california-race-video/ ]( http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/amateur-racer-deftly-avoids-tumbling-off-bridge-in-california-race-video/ )

Marek Litinsky

Try checking it historically and if you really have time look at other sports. Junior racing is not necessarily indicative of senior results. There's pretty big burnt out factor leading to big adjustments in participation on the highest level. That and all the other fun stuff like college, girlfriends, boyfriends, jobs etc.

> On Jan 31, 2017, at 1:52 PM, Ryan Francesconi wrote:
>
> I just checked the UCI junior cx rankings expecting it to look like the elites, all BE and NL, but actually -- not at all the case. Perhaps there are more things going on in the development that we are giving credit to. If you lived in Wisconsin, next year you'd have a World Cup level event. That's certainly some changes. It's a big difference from MVDP's undefeated season as a junior.
>
> http://www.uci.ch/cyclo-cross/ranking/
>
>
> Ranking - Cyclo Cross 2016/2017
>
> Men Juniors UCI Ranking Nation
> 19: 31 Jan 2017
> Export to Excel
>
>
>
> Points details
> Individual
> Nation
> Rank Name Nation Points
> 1 (1) GREAT BRITAIN GBR 477
> 2 (2) BELGIUM BEL 370
> 3 (3) FRANCE FRA 301
> 4 (4) UNITED STATES OF AMERICA USA 236
> 5 (5) SPAIN ESP 207
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "My Computer"
> Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2017 4:32pm
> To: "Marek Litinsky"
> Cc: "Ryan Francesconi" , "obra@list.obra.org"
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Road Racing / Diminishing interest / etc
>
> In Europe getting deep 6 figure salaries + winning / show up bonuses that eclipse what most people make in a month is fairly motivating to the top talent. Top 10 domestic cross racers are squeaking by. Until that changes, it won't draw the best of the best at attract talent at young age. It's going to take massive sponsorship money and/or a sustainable long term business model to make that happen.
>
>> On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 12:33 PM, Marek Litinsky via OBRA wrote:
>> Ryan, you totally hit the mark on all the points except me winning all fondos. As soon as other racers who put in the work in training would line up I'll be just the pack fodder.
>>
>> To me OBRA and usac racing (and let's not pretend that OBRA on principle does it hardest to comply with usac rules verbatim) should come with warning :HAVE FUN, BUT PLEASE DON'T SHOW INTEREST IN ANY WORLD CLASS RACING ON TV AROUND THE WORLD BECAUSE WE WORK ACTIVELY ON LOWERING STANDARDS OF COMPETING. YOU WILL BE DISAPPOINTED.
>>
>> This country has the easiest access to bikes. Racing is way way beyond accessible (that's THE problem btw.) and on top of that boasts talent pool of whopping 350 millions of potential racers. Why is there only such a low number of successful road pros out there? Why can't pinnacle of US cross racing crack top five in any world race, heck almost not even top 20?
>>
>> The fault is not of course on those racers that do get there. Stephen Hyde, Tejay Van Gardener etc are undoubtedly doing thrir best and this is not accusation of any racer out there.
>>
>> What is failing is this "race" system wit its ongoing race to the bottom, creating more categories, more separation between racers and failing to create any heroes and idols. Racing is hard. You need a dream with hero in it and it's not cat 4 master 35-37. I don't know if you remember being a kid or if you even raced as a kid but I'm sure you didn't start because you wanted to be as good cat 4 raced as possible. It's the top level of the sport that creates participation and not the other way.
>>
>> Top athletes should be awarded not vilified for taking it too seriously. Juniors and upcoming talent (aka cat 3 crowd) should race with the rest of the adults to progress with them. That's why I believe we should advocate for combine fields for all senior men and women. Not total beginners. Not for young juniors. And not for Masters.
>>
>> Also if racing as it should be is too aggressive and hard for you please check out what Ryan actually does with omtm.cc
>>
>> No teams, no numbers, no money, no glory. Just riding for getting you kicks in with people who like the same type of fun. It's so much fun and those are my favorite rides of the year. It's not bike racing though.
>>
>> > On Jan 31, 2017, at 11:32 AM, Ryan Francesconi via OBRA wrote:
>> >
>> > Thought I'd throw my hat into the ring of lions that is the OBRA chat list here... A lot of you are on the inside of this issue in that you want to support road racing, or you're a promoter, or you're an official. I haven't followed this thread closely, but I thought I'd give you the perspective of someone who more or less quit racing here for a number of these speculated issues and started organizing the sorts of rides that maybe directly compete with your numbers. I must say, I do support OBRA, and even though I didn't race last year I still signed up because of this.
>> >
>> > Basically for me in comes down to a 3 part ratio of risk, reward, and energy loss/gain.
>> >
>> > When I evaluate whether to do an event, I'm more or less calculating these three things. If the number is in the negative I do something else.
>> >
>> > I've topped out in all my cats. I'm not going higher than where I am. In fact to even be IN the race for A's/123's/etc, I have to work damn hard for most of the year. I like working hard, so that's ok. But, reward is now gone. No more upgrades, and getting to this point I think I won a grand total of a pair of socks. The only race I actually won I didn't get anything at all. Winning for winning sake is meaningless to me, especially if it involves paying to play. That is in the area of energy loss.
>> >
>> > Road race routes are terribly boring to me due to factors outside of your control. Permitting is a pain in the ass -- Not to mention 25c was an evolutionary mistake.
>> >
>> > Road racing is inherently more dangerous than CX. This is one reason you find numbers higher in CX. Less risk = more fun. Everyone is so serious in road races. Being serious = boring. MTB is pretty damn dangerous too, so we'll just ignore that issue for the moment.
>> >
>> > Road racing is horrible in regard to emissions. 3 vehicles per field driving 20mph for 3 hours? No. Races such as PIR or Tabor are better suited to OBRA. We all want to be in a peloton cruising at 30mph through the Alps, but it's simply not cost or environmentally responsible to do this. I cannot approve of professional road racing for this reason as well. (Though I'm a fan of course)
>> >
>> > To race here you must devote a large part of your day, or in many cases, the day before AND the day after. You often must DRIVE to the start of the race and then DRIVE home. Then you must lie around the following day watching reruns of the Giro stages wondering what COULD OF BEEN.
>> >
>> > In fact, the amount of reasons TO race are surprisingly few:
>> > 1. ?
>> > 2. ?
>> > 3. ?
>> >
>> > Jordan asked, what are *YOU* doing for your community in regard to this issue. Well, for me I started offering what I felt was missing from OBRA. A community that doesn't judge you or rank you. That doesn't have cliques. That doesn't have teams. That doesn't cost anything. That is only about having fun on your bike and seeing some incredible nature and forgotten history from the seat of your bike. That will challenge you and will drop you. (sorry, but we're racers after all).
>> >
>> > In terms of OBRA, I have a hard time seeing a sustainable model there - that's why it's shifting and Kenji is more focused on statewide development issues. Chad mentioned that racing is market driven. Well, bike riding isn't a business for me. It's a passion. It's not governed by rules and regulations. It's guided by freedom and joy. I don't find these things so easily in a race especially if I get yelled at for going over a yellow line.
>> >
>> > I like riding hard and pushing my limits. Yes, I will agree that during a race I will push harder and farther than I thought I could. That is certainly an appeal for some. But for me, that is a small part of the ratio.
>> >
>> > I agree with Marek that the fondo model is better for amateur racing. But of course, Marek is still going to win said fondo and you're not. So...
>> >
>> > One quick note about MTB racing. I love riding trails the most. My favorite thing. But, *Mountain Bike Racing* removes all the things that I love about *Mountain Bike Riding*.
>> >
>> > Cheers!
>> > Ryan
>> >
>> > PS. CX is still rad by my estimation. That's why people still do that.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > OBRA mailing list
>> > obra@list.obra.org
>> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Marek Litinsky

Preach, buddy. That's exactly what I'm talking about when I bring up lack of any marketing of only product we have in road racing - our races. Zero sponsor banners around finish, no sponsor banners behind podium. OBRA could and should step in and create requirements for promoters to encourage and enforce changes. Bring general sponsors with logos on every OBRA road race. OBRA is the only player in this state that has access to all the races it officiates and could start this. Promoters than could try to get their own local sponsors since there's a way and frame work to showcase them. It worked in post communist Czech skiing and cycling.

Funny thing is that money are there for Crusade that is plastered with sponsors logos paying cold cash but the same people will tell you it's just "bling bling" for road racing. Money are good for Oregon cross but useless "bling bling" for road? Huh?

> On Jan 31, 2017, at 1:32 PM, My Computer wrote:
>
> In Europe getting deep 6 figure salaries + winning / show up bonuses that eclipse what most people make in a month is fairly motivating to the top talent. Top 10 domestic cross racers are squeaking by. Until that changes, it won't draw the best of the best at attract talent at young age. It's going to take massive sponsorship money and/or a sustainable long term business model to make that happen.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 12:33 PM, Marek Litinsky via OBRA wrote:
>> Ryan, you totally hit the mark on all the points except me winning all fondos. As soon as other racers who put in the work in training would line up I'll be just the pack fodder.
>>
>> To me OBRA and usac racing (and let's not pretend that OBRA on principle does it hardest to comply with usac rules verbatim) should come with warning :HAVE FUN, BUT PLEASE DON'T SHOW INTEREST IN ANY WORLD CLASS RACING ON TV AROUND THE WORLD BECAUSE WE WORK ACTIVELY ON LOWERING STANDARDS OF COMPETING. YOU WILL BE DISAPPOINTED.
>>
>> This country has the easiest access to bikes. Racing is way way beyond accessible (that's THE problem btw.) and on top of that boasts talent pool of whopping 350 millions of potential racers. Why is there only such a low number of successful road pros out there? Why can't pinnacle of US cross racing crack top five in any world race, heck almost not even top 20?
>>
>> The fault is not of course on those racers that do get there. Stephen Hyde, Tejay Van Gardener etc are undoubtedly doing thrir best and this is not accusation of any racer out there.
>>
>> What is failing is this "race" system wit its ongoing race to the bottom, creating more categories, more separation between racers and failing to create any heroes and idols. Racing is hard. You need a dream with hero in it and it's not cat 4 master 35-37. I don't know if you remember being a kid or if you even raced as a kid but I'm sure you didn't start because you wanted to be as good cat 4 raced as possible. It's the top level of the sport that creates participation and not the other way.
>>
>> Top athletes should be awarded not vilified for taking it too seriously. Juniors and upcoming talent (aka cat 3 crowd) should race with the rest of the adults to progress with them. That's why I believe we should advocate for combine fields for all senior men and women. Not total beginners. Not for young juniors. And not for Masters.
>>
>> Also if racing as it should be is too aggressive and hard for you please check out what Ryan actually does with omtm.cc
>>
>> No teams, no numbers, no money, no glory. Just riding for getting you kicks in with people who like the same type of fun. It's so much fun and those are my favorite rides of the year. It's not bike racing though.
>>
>> > On Jan 31, 2017, at 11:32 AM, Ryan Francesconi via OBRA wrote:
>> >
>> > Thought I'd throw my hat into the ring of lions that is the OBRA chat list here... A lot of you are on the inside of this issue in that you want to support road racing, or you're a promoter, or you're an official. I haven't followed this thread closely, but I thought I'd give you the perspective of someone who more or less quit racing here for a number of these speculated issues and started organizing the sorts of rides that maybe directly compete with your numbers. I must say, I do support OBRA, and even though I didn't race last year I still signed up because of this.
>> >
>> > Basically for me in comes down to a 3 part ratio of risk, reward, and energy loss/gain.
>> >
>> > When I evaluate whether to do an event, I'm more or less calculating these three things. If the number is in the negative I do something else.
>> >
>> > I've topped out in all my cats. I'm not going higher than where I am. In fact to even be IN the race for A's/123's/etc, I have to work damn hard for most of the year. I like working hard, so that's ok. But, reward is now gone. No more upgrades, and getting to this point I think I won a grand total of a pair of socks. The only race I actually won I didn't get anything at all. Winning for winning sake is meaningless to me, especially if it involves paying to play. That is in the area of energy loss.
>> >
>> > Road race routes are terribly boring to me due to factors outside of your control. Permitting is a pain in the ass -- Not to mention 25c was an evolutionary mistake.
>> >
>> > Road racing is inherently more dangerous than CX. This is one reason you find numbers higher in CX. Less risk = more fun. Everyone is so serious in road races. Being serious = boring. MTB is pretty damn dangerous too, so we'll just ignore that issue for the moment.
>> >
>> > Road racing is horrible in regard to emissions. 3 vehicles per field driving 20mph for 3 hours? No. Races such as PIR or Tabor are better suited to OBRA. We all want to be in a peloton cruising at 30mph through the Alps, but it's simply not cost or environmentally responsible to do this. I cannot approve of professional road racing for this reason as well. (Though I'm a fan of course)
>> >
>> > To race here you must devote a large part of your day, or in many cases, the day before AND the day after. You often must DRIVE to the start of the race and then DRIVE home. Then you must lie around the following day watching reruns of the Giro stages wondering what COULD OF BEEN.
>> >
>> > In fact, the amount of reasons TO race are surprisingly few:
>> > 1. ?
>> > 2. ?
>> > 3. ?
>> >
>> > Jordan asked, what are *YOU* doing for your community in regard to this issue. Well, for me I started offering what I felt was missing from OBRA. A community that doesn't judge you or rank you. That doesn't have cliques. That doesn't have teams. That doesn't cost anything. That is only about having fun on your bike and seeing some incredible nature and forgotten history from the seat of your bike. That will challenge you and will drop you. (sorry, but we're racers after all).
>> >
>> > In terms of OBRA, I have a hard time seeing a sustainable model there - that's why it's shifting and Kenji is more focused on statewide development issues. Chad mentioned that racing is market driven. Well, bike riding isn't a business for me. It's a passion. It's not governed by rules and regulations. It's guided by freedom and joy. I don't find these things so easily in a race especially if I get yelled at for going over a yellow line.
>> >
>> > I like riding hard and pushing my limits. Yes, I will agree that during a race I will push harder and farther than I thought I could. That is certainly an appeal for some. But for me, that is a small part of the ratio.
>> >
>> > I agree with Marek that the fondo model is better for amateur racing. But of course, Marek is still going to win said fondo and you're not. So...
>> >
>> > One quick note about MTB racing. I love riding trails the most. My favorite thing. But, *Mountain Bike Racing* removes all the things that I love about *Mountain Bike Riding*.
>> >
>> > Cheers!
>> > Ryan
>> >
>> > PS. CX is still rad by my estimation. That's why people still do that.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > OBRA mailing list
>> > obra@list.obra.org
>> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Ryan Francesconi

I just checked the UCI junior cx rankings expecting it to look like the elites, all BE and NL, but actually -- not at all the case. Perhaps there are more things going on in the development that we are giving credit to. If you lived in Wisconsin, next year you'd have a World Cup level event. That's certainly some changes. It's a big difference from MVDP's undefeated season as a junior.

[ http://www.uci.ch/cyclo-cross/ranking/ ]( http://www.uci.ch/cyclo-cross/ranking/ )

Ranking - Cyclo Cross 2016/2017

Men Juniors UCI Ranking Nation

19: 31 Jan 2017
Export to Excel
select season 2016/20172015/20162014/20152013/20142012/20132011/20122010/20112009/20102008/2009
select date19: 31 Jan 201718: 24 Jan 201717: 17 Jan 201716: 10 Jan 201715: 03 Jan 201714: 27 Dec 201613: 20 Dec 201612: 13 Dec 201611: 06 Dec 201610: 29 Nov 20169: 22 Nov 20168: 15 Nov 20167: 08 Nov 20166: 01 Nov 20165: 25 Oct 20164: 18 Oct 20163: 11 Oct 20162: 04 Oct 20161: 27 Sep 2016

[ Points details ]( http://www.uci.html.infostradasports.com/asp/xml/index.asp?SportID=306&PhaseID=1706382 )

[ Individual ]( http://www.uci.html.infostradasports.com/asp/redirect/uci.asp?page=worldrankings&SportID=306&CompetitionID=17034&SeasonID=491&EventPhaseID=1622015&EventID=10771&ContainerEventID=10771&GenderID=1&ClassID=2&detail=1&Taalcode=2&StyleID=0&Cache=2 )

[ Nation ]( http://www.uci.html.infostradasports.com/asp/redirect/uci.asp?page=worldrankings&SportID=306&CompetitionID=17034&SeasonID=491&EventPhaseID=1622020&EventID=12144&ContainerEventID=10771&GenderID=1&ClassID=2&detail=1&Taalcode=2&StyleID=0&Cache=2 )

RankNameNationPoints
1 (1)GREAT BRITAINGBR477
2 (2)BELGIUMBEL370
3 (3)FRANCEFRA301
4 (4)UNITED STATES OF AMERICAUSA236
5 (5)SPAINESP207


-----Original Message-----
From: "My Computer"
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2017 4:32pm
To: "Marek Litinsky"
Cc: "Ryan Francesconi" , "obra@list.obra.org"
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Road Racing / Diminishing interest / etc

In Europe getting deep 6 figure salaries + winning / show up bonuses that eclipse what most people make in a month is fairly motivating to the top talent. Top 10 domestic cross racers are squeaking by. Until that changes, it won't draw the best of the best at attract talent at young age. It's going to take massive sponsorship money and/or a sustainable long term business model to make that happen.

On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 12:33 PM, Marek Litinsky via OBRA <[ obra@list.obra.org ]( mailto:obra@list.obra.org )> wrote:
Ryan, you totally hit the mark on all the points except me winning all fondos. As soon as other racers who put in the work in training would line up I'll be just the pack fodder.

To me OBRA and usac racing (and let's not pretend that OBRA on principle does it hardest to comply with usac rules verbatim) should come with warning :HAVE FUN, BUT PLEASE DON'T SHOW INTEREST IN ANY WORLD CLASS RACING ON TV AROUND THE WORLD BECAUSE WE WORK ACTIVELY ON LOWERING STANDARDS OF COMPETING. YOU WILL BE DISAPPOINTED.

This country has the easiest access to bikes. Racing is way way beyond accessible (that's THE problem btw.) and on top of that boasts talent pool of whopping 350 millions of potential racers. Why is there only such a low number of successful road pros out there? Why can't pinnacle of US cross racing crack top five in any world race, heck almost not even top 20?

The fault is not of course on those racers that do get there. Stephen Hyde, Tejay Van Gardener etc are undoubtedly doing thrir best and this is not accusation of any racer out there.

What is failing is this "race" system wit its ongoing race to the bottom, creating more categories, more separation between racers and failing to create any heroes and idols. Racing is hard. You need a dream with hero in it and it's not cat 4 master 35-37. I don't know if you remember being a kid or if you even raced as a kid but I'm sure you didn't start because you wanted to be as good cat 4 raced as possible. It's the top level of the sport that creates participation and not the other way.

Top athletes should be awarded not vilified for taking it too seriously. Juniors and upcoming talent (aka cat 3 crowd) should race with the rest of the adults to progress with them. That's why I believe we should advocate for combine fields for all senior men and women. Not total beginners. Not for young juniors. And not for Masters.

Also if racing as it should be is too aggressive and hard for you please check out what Ryan actually does with omtm.cc

No teams, no numbers, no money, no glory. Just riding for getting you kicks in with people who like the same type of fun. It's so much fun and those are my favorite rides of the year. It's not bike racing though.

> On Jan 31, 2017, at 11:32 AM, Ryan Francesconi via OBRA <[ obra@list.obra.org ]( mailto:obra@list.obra.org )> wrote:
>
> Thought I'd throw my hat into the ring of lions that is the OBRA chat list here... A lot of you are on the inside of this issue in that you want to support road racing, or you're a promoter, or you're an official. I haven't followed this thread closely, but I thought I'd give you the perspective of someone who more or less quit racing here for a number of these speculated issues and started organizing the sorts of rides that maybe directly compete with your numbers. I must say, I do support OBRA, and even though I didn't race last year I still signed up because of this.
>
> Basically for me in comes down to a 3 part ratio of risk, reward, and energy loss/gain.
>
> When I evaluate whether to do an event, I'm more or less calculating these three things. If the number is in the negative I do something else.
>
> I've topped out in all my cats. I'm not going higher than where I am. In fact to even be IN the race for A's/123's/etc, I have to work damn hard for most of the year. I like working hard, so that's ok. But, reward is now gone. No more upgrades, and getting to this point I think I won a grand total of a pair of socks. The only race I actually won I didn't get anything at all. Winning for winning sake is meaningless to me, especially if it involves paying to play. That is in the area of energy loss.
>
> Road race routes are terribly boring to me due to factors outside of your control. Permitting is a pain in the ass -- Not to mention 25c was an evolutionary mistake.
>
> Road racing is inherently more dangerous than CX. This is one reason you find numbers higher in CX. Less risk = more fun. Everyone is so serious in road races. Being serious = boring. MTB is pretty damn dangerous too, so we'll just ignore that issue for the moment.
>
> Road racing is horrible in regard to emissions. 3 vehicles per field driving 20mph for 3 hours? No. Races such as PIR or Tabor are better suited to OBRA. We all want to be in a peloton cruising at 30mph through the Alps, but it's simply not cost or environmentally responsible to do this. I cannot approve of professional road racing for this reason as well. (Though I'm a fan of course)
>
> To race here you must devote a large part of your day, or in many cases, the day before AND the day after. You often must DRIVE to the start of the race and then DRIVE home. Then you must lie around the following day watching reruns of the Giro stages wondering what COULD OF BEEN.
>
> In fact, the amount of reasons TO race are surprisingly few:
> 1. ?
> 2. ?
> 3. ?
>
> Jordan asked, what are *YOU* doing for your community in regard to this issue. Well, for me I started offering what I felt was missing from OBRA. A community that doesn't judge you or rank you. That doesn't have cliques. That doesn't have teams. That doesn't cost anything. That is only about having fun on your bike and seeing some incredible nature and forgotten history from the seat of your bike. That will challenge you and will drop you. (sorry, but we're racers after all).
>
> In terms of OBRA, I have a hard time seeing a sustainable model there - that's why it's shifting and Kenji is more focused on statewide development issues. Chad mentioned that racing is market driven. Well, bike riding isn't a business for me. It's a passion. It's not governed by rules and regulations. It's guided by freedom and joy. I don't find these things so easily in a race especially if I get yelled at for going over a yellow line.
>
> I like riding hard and pushing my limits. Yes, I will agree that during a race I will push harder and farther than I thought I could. That is certainly an appeal for some. But for me, that is a small part of the ratio.
>
> I agree with Marek that the fondo model is better for amateur racing. But of course, Marek is still going to win said fondo and you're not. So...
>
> One quick note about MTB racing. I love riding trails the most. My favorite thing. But, *Mountain Bike Racing* removes all the things that I love about *Mountain Bike Riding*.
>
> Cheers!
> Ryan
>
> PS. CX is still rad by my estimation. That's why people still do that.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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craig austin

So Marek, there were 50 total racers at the Czech state
(national?) championship.

You promoters, tell me how high entry fees would have to be to make that
one pencil out.

On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 1:29 PM, Marek Litinsky via OBRA wrote:

> Just to put this myth to perspective with reality.
>
> About Czech Republic that has I believe third or fourth highest amount of
> medals from Worlds.
>
> There are TOTAL 6 categories on state level races. INCLUDING all kids,
> junior a gender categories. Not six categories for kids, six categories for
> adults etc. SIX categories total. Fractured fields coddle and encourage
> mediocrity.
>
> Now to the participation numbers. For the Czech Republic 2917 state
> championship there was only ONE combined field for U23 with elite. Women
> are just called women in results. Just one field for every gender. That's
> TWO categories combined for whole entire championship weekend. How many
> joke categories are at US championship race? 20? 40?
>
> In men 27 men finished and 32 started.
> In women's race 18 started and 17 finished.
>
> That's the system that brings you Zdenek Stybar and Katerina Nash as a
> result.
>
> It's popular with viewers and fans but when it's done right it's so hard
> you can't pretend to race like everybody around here so in the end only
> true devotees actually race. Many many thousands have fun riding bikes.
> Racers race. I was racing many road races with 120 kids in my category. In
> cross there would be dozen of them because cross is so hard and cold kids
> are discouraged from it in the early years of their racing. Not exactly
> born in the muddy off camber. But then again I don't know Belgium racing
> culture that intimately. Or almost at all to be honest
>
> On Jan 31, 2017, at 1:03 PM, Matt Martel via OBRA
> wrote:
>
> Ryan,
>
> "...literally born off-camber in the mud"! I love that one! I'll be using
> it and not giving you the credit! :)
>
> Matt
>
> On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 12:52 PM, Ryan Francesconi via OBRA <
> obra@list.obra.org> wrote:
>
>> I can easily see why American cross racers don't crack the euro top 5's
>> except rarely. Cycling on natural surfaces in the USA is a bickering war
>> between user groups and is largely illegal. Ironically, where do kids learn
>> to ride on dirt? Kids need paths that have NO CARS on them. NWTA's 'Take a
>> kid mountain biking day' is only one day a year, and the parents must DRIVE
>> the bikes to cascade locks to ride a trail that is beginner friendly. HUH?
>>
>>
>>
>> No fkn chance against Wout or MVDP who were literally born off-camber in
>> the mud.
>>
>> Sure, a scene like Portland is known internationally for its inclusionary
>> "grass roots" racing, but yet there is *nowhere at all* to actually
>> practice cross. Gateway green will be a first here, and I'm quite
>> interested to see what else comes to the table in regard to the Offroad
>> cycling master plan. I hold out some amount of hope! For the children!
>>
>> Countries like Belguim and Netherlands (and even Czech rep.) (whom
>> dominate all UCI cx events) have a mainstream culture relationship to cx.
>> It's a national sport, Like NFL is here. Imagine if there was the same
>> amount of resources given to cycling as there is to little league football.
>> It's really a mind-fk when you go to Belguim and see the "fans" that show
>> up at these races. Wow!
>>
>> The questions and answers are obvious, but the solution is not.
>>
>> The real solution lies deep down in the dark depths of the US automotive
>> industry lobby. If you really want change, the actions required are so much
>> deeper than anyone possibly imagines. They want kids to DRIVE at 16 not
>> ride a bike.
>>
>>
>>
>> Ryan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: "Marek Litinsky"
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2017 3:33pm
>> To: "Ryan Francesconi" , obra@list.obra.org
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Road Racing / Diminishing interest / etc
>>
>> Ryan, you totally hit the mark on all the points except me winning all
>> fondos. As soon as other racers who put in the work in training would line
>> up I'll be just the pack fodder.
>>
>> To me OBRA and usac racing (and let's not pretend that OBRA on principle
>> does it hardest to comply with usac rules verbatim) should come with
>> warning :HAVE FUN, BUT PLEASE DON'T SHOW INTEREST IN ANY WORLD CLASS RACING
>> ON TV AROUND THE WORLD BECAUSE WE WORK ACTIVELY ON LOWERING STANDARDS OF
>> COMPETING. YOU WILL BE DISAPPOINTED.
>>
>> This country has the easiest access to bikes. Racing is way way beyond
>> accessible (that's THE problem btw.) and on top of that boasts talent pool
>> of whopping 350 millions of potential racers. Why is there only such a low
>> number of successful road pros out there? Why can't pinnacle of US cross
>> racing crack top five in any world race, heck almost not even top 20?
>>
>> The fault is not of course on those racers that do get there. Stephen
>> Hyde, Tejay Van Gardener etc are undoubtedly doing thrir best and this is
>> not accusation of any racer out there.
>>
>> What is failing is this "race" system wit its ongoing race to the bottom,
>> creating more categories, more separation between racers and failing to
>> create any heroes and idols. Racing is hard. You need a dream with hero in
>> it and it's not cat 4 master 35-37. I don't know if you remember being a
>> kid or if you even raced as a kid but I'm sure you didn't start because you
>> wanted to be as good cat 4 raced as possible. It's the top level of the
>> sport that creates participation and not the other way.
>>
>> Top athletes should be awarded not vilified for taking it too seriously.
>> Juniors and upcoming talent (aka cat 3 crowd) should race with the rest of
>> the adults to progress with them. That's why I believe we should advocate
>> for combine fields for all senior men and women. Not total beginners. Not
>> for young juniors. And not for Masters.
>>
>> Also if racing as it should be is too aggressive and hard for you please
>> check out what Ryan actually does with omtm.cc
>>
>> No teams, no numbers, no money, no glory. Just riding for getting you
>> kicks in with people who like the same type of fun. It's so much fun and
>> those are my favorite rides of the year. It's not bike racing though.
>>
>> > On Jan 31, 2017, at 11:32 AM, Ryan Francesconi via OBRA <
>> obra@list.obra.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > Thought I'd throw my hat into the ring of lions that is the OBRA chat
>> list here... A lot of you are on the inside of this issue in that you want
>> to support road racing, or you're a promoter, or you're an official. I
>> haven't followed this thread closely, but I thought I'd give you the
>> perspective of someone who more or less quit racing here for a number of
>> these speculated issues and started organizing the sorts of rides that
>> maybe directly compete with your numbers. I must say, I do support OBRA,
>> and even though I didn't race last year I still signed up because of this.
>> >
>> > Basically for me in comes down to a 3 part ratio of risk, reward, and
>> energy loss/gain.
>> >
>> > When I evaluate whether to do an event, I'm more or less calculating
>> these three things. If the number is in the negative I do something else.
>> >
>> > I've topped out in all my cats. I'm not going higher than where I am.
>> In fact to even be IN the race for A's/123's/etc, I have to work damn hard
>> for most of the year. I like working hard, so that's ok. But, reward is now
>> gone. No more upgrades, and getting to this point I think I won a grand
>> total of a pair of socks. The only race I actually won I didn't get
>> anything at all. Winning for winning sake is meaningless to me, especially
>> if it involves paying to play. That is in the area of energy loss.
>> >
>> > Road race routes are terribly boring to me due to factors outside of
>> your control. Permitting is a pain in the ass -- Not to mention 25c was an
>> evolutionary mistake.
>> >
>> > Road racing is inherently more dangerous than CX. This is one reason
>> you find numbers higher in CX. Less risk = more fun. Everyone is so serious
>> in road races. Being serious = boring. MTB is pretty damn dangerous too, so
>> we'll just ignore that issue for the moment.
>> >
>> > Road racing is horrible in regard to emissions. 3 vehicles per field
>> driving 20mph for 3 hours? No. Races such as PIR or Tabor are better suited
>> to OBRA. We all want to be in a peloton cruising at 30mph through the Alps,
>> but it's simply not cost or environmentally responsible to do this. I
>> cannot approve of professional road racing for this reason as well. (Though
>> I'm a fan of course)
>> >
>> > To race here you must devote a large part of your day, or in many
>> cases, the day before AND the day after. You often must DRIVE to the start
>> of the race and then DRIVE home. Then you must lie around the following day
>> watching reruns of the Giro stages wondering what COULD OF BEEN.
>> >
>> > In fact, the amount of reasons TO race are surprisingly few:
>> > 1. ?
>> > 2. ?
>> > 3. ?
>> >
>> > Jordan asked, what are *YOU* doing for your community in regard to this
>> issue. Well, for me I started offering what I felt was missing from OBRA. A
>> community that doesn't judge you or rank you. That doesn't have cliques.
>> That doesn't have teams. That doesn't cost anything. That is only about
>> having fun on your bike and seeing some incredible nature and forgotten
>> history from the seat of your bike. That will challenge you and will drop
>> you. (sorry, but we're racers after all).
>> >
>> > In terms of OBRA, I have a hard time seeing a sustainable model there -
>> that's why it's shifting and Kenji is more focused on statewide development
>> issues. Chad mentioned that racing is market driven. Well, bike riding
>> isn't a business for me. It's a passion. It's not governed by rules and
>> regulations. It's guided by freedom and joy. I don't find these things so
>> easily in a race especially if I get yelled at for going over a yellow line.
>> >
>> > I like riding hard and pushing my limits. Yes, I will agree that during
>> a race I will push harder and farther than I thought I could. That is
>> certainly an appeal for some. But for me, that is a small part of the ratio.
>> >
>> > I agree with Marek that the fondo model is better for amateur racing.
>> But of course, Marek is still going to win said fondo and you're not. So...
>> >
>> > One quick note about MTB racing. I love riding trails the most. My
>> favorite thing. But, *Mountain Bike Racing* removes all the things that I
>> love about *Mountain Bike Riding*.
>> >
>> > Cheers!
>> > Ryan
>> >
>> > PS. CX is still rad by my estimation. That's why people still do that.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > OBRA mailing list
>> > obra@list.obra.org
>> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
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> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
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> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

My Computer

In Europe getting deep 6 figure salaries + winning / show up bonuses that
eclipse what most people make in a month is fairly motivating to the top
talent. Top 10 domestic cross racers are squeaking by. Until that
changes, it won't draw the best of the best at attract talent at young
age. It's going to take massive sponsorship money and/or a sustainable
long term business model to make that happen.

On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 12:33 PM, Marek Litinsky via OBRA <
obra@list.obra.org> wrote:

> Ryan, you totally hit the mark on all the points except me winning all
> fondos. As soon as other racers who put in the work in training would line
> up I'll be just the pack fodder.
>
> To me OBRA and usac racing (and let's not pretend that OBRA on principle
> does it hardest to comply with usac rules verbatim) should come with
> warning :HAVE FUN, BUT PLEASE DON'T SHOW INTEREST IN ANY WORLD CLASS RACING
> ON TV AROUND THE WORLD BECAUSE WE WORK ACTIVELY ON LOWERING STANDARDS OF
> COMPETING. YOU WILL BE DISAPPOINTED.
>
> This country has the easiest access to bikes. Racing is way way beyond
> accessible (that's THE problem btw.) and on top of that boasts talent pool
> of whopping 350 millions of potential racers. Why is there only such a low
> number of successful road pros out there? Why can't pinnacle of US cross
> racing crack top five in any world race, heck almost not even top 20?
>
> The fault is not of course on those racers that do get there. Stephen
> Hyde, Tejay Van Gardener etc are undoubtedly doing thrir best and this is
> not accusation of any racer out there.
>
> What is failing is this "race" system wit its ongoing race to the bottom,
> creating more categories, more separation between racers and failing to
> create any heroes and idols. Racing is hard. You need a dream with hero in
> it and it's not cat 4 master 35-37. I don't know if you remember being a
> kid or if you even raced as a kid but I'm sure you didn't start because you
> wanted to be as good cat 4 raced as possible. It's the top level of the
> sport that creates participation and not the other way.
>
> Top athletes should be awarded not vilified for taking it too seriously.
> Juniors and upcoming talent (aka cat 3 crowd) should race with the rest of
> the adults to progress with them. That's why I believe we should advocate
> for combine fields for all senior men and women. Not total beginners. Not
> for young juniors. And not for Masters.
>
> Also if racing as it should be is too aggressive and hard for you please
> check out what Ryan actually does with omtm.cc
>
> No teams, no numbers, no money, no glory. Just riding for getting you
> kicks in with people who like the same type of fun. It's so much fun and
> those are my favorite rides of the year. It's not bike racing though.
>
> > On Jan 31, 2017, at 11:32 AM, Ryan Francesconi via OBRA <
> obra@list.obra.org> wrote:
> >
> > Thought I'd throw my hat into the ring of lions that is the OBRA chat
> list here... A lot of you are on the inside of this issue in that you want
> to support road racing, or you're a promoter, or you're an official. I
> haven't followed this thread closely, but I thought I'd give you the
> perspective of someone who more or less quit racing here for a number of
> these speculated issues and started organizing the sorts of rides that
> maybe directly compete with your numbers. I must say, I do support OBRA,
> and even though I didn't race last year I still signed up because of this.
> >
> > Basically for me in comes down to a 3 part ratio of risk, reward, and
> energy loss/gain.
> >
> > When I evaluate whether to do an event, I'm more or less calculating
> these three things. If the number is in the negative I do something else.
> >
> > I've topped out in all my cats. I'm not going higher than where I am. In
> fact to even be IN the race for A's/123's/etc, I have to work damn hard for
> most of the year. I like working hard, so that's ok. But, reward is now
> gone. No more upgrades, and getting to this point I think I won a grand
> total of a pair of socks. The only race I actually won I didn't get
> anything at all. Winning for winning sake is meaningless to me, especially
> if it involves paying to play. That is in the area of energy loss.
> >
> > Road race routes are terribly boring to me due to factors outside of
> your control. Permitting is a pain in the ass -- Not to mention 25c was an
> evolutionary mistake.
> >
> > Road racing is inherently more dangerous than CX. This is one reason you
> find numbers higher in CX. Less risk = more fun. Everyone is so serious in
> road races. Being serious = boring. MTB is pretty damn dangerous too, so
> we'll just ignore that issue for the moment.
> >
> > Road racing is horrible in regard to emissions. 3 vehicles per field
> driving 20mph for 3 hours? No. Races such as PIR or Tabor are better suited
> to OBRA. We all want to be in a peloton cruising at 30mph through the Alps,
> but it's simply not cost or environmentally responsible to do this. I
> cannot approve of professional road racing for this reason as well. (Though
> I'm a fan of course)
> >
> > To race here you must devote a large part of your day, or in many cases,
> the day before AND the day after. You often must DRIVE to the start of the
> race and then DRIVE home. Then you must lie around the following day
> watching reruns of the Giro stages wondering what COULD OF BEEN.
> >
> > In fact, the amount of reasons TO race are surprisingly few:
> > 1. ?
> > 2. ?
> > 3. ?
> >
> > Jordan asked, what are *YOU* doing for your community in regard to this
> issue. Well, for me I started offering what I felt was missing from OBRA. A
> community that doesn't judge you or rank you. That doesn't have cliques.
> That doesn't have teams. That doesn't cost anything. That is only about
> having fun on your bike and seeing some incredible nature and forgotten
> history from the seat of your bike. That will challenge you and will drop
> you. (sorry, but we're racers after all).
> >
> > In terms of OBRA, I have a hard time seeing a sustainable model there -
> that's why it's shifting and Kenji is more focused on statewide development
> issues. Chad mentioned that racing is market driven. Well, bike riding
> isn't a business for me. It's a passion. It's not governed by rules and
> regulations. It's guided by freedom and joy. I don't find these things so
> easily in a race especially if I get yelled at for going over a yellow line.
> >
> > I like riding hard and pushing my limits. Yes, I will agree that during
> a race I will push harder and farther than I thought I could. That is
> certainly an appeal for some. But for me, that is a small part of the ratio.
> >
> > I agree with Marek that the fondo model is better for amateur racing.
> But of course, Marek is still going to win said fondo and you're not. So...
> >
> > One quick note about MTB racing. I love riding trails the most. My
> favorite thing. But, *Mountain Bike Racing* removes all the things that I
> love about *Mountain Bike Riding*.
> >
> > Cheers!
> > Ryan
> >
> > PS. CX is still rad by my estimation. That's why people still do that.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Marek Litinsky

Just to put this myth to perspective with reality.

About Czech Republic that has I believe third or fourth highest amount of medals from Worlds.

There are TOTAL 6 categories on state level races. INCLUDING all kids, junior a gender categories. Not six categories for kids, six categories for adults etc. SIX categories total. Fractured fields coddle and encourage mediocrity.

Now to the participation numbers. For the Czech Republic 2917 state championship there was only ONE combined field for U23 with elite. Women are just called women in results. Just one field for every gender. That's TWO categories combined for whole entire championship weekend. How many joke categories are at US championship race? 20? 40?

In men 27 men finished and 32 started.
In women's race 18 started and 17 finished.

That's the system that brings you Zdenek Stybar and Katerina Nash as a result.

It's popular with viewers and fans but when it's done right it's so hard you can't pretend to race like everybody around here so in the end only true devotees actually race. Many many thousands have fun riding bikes. Racers race. I was racing many road races with 120 kids in my category. In cross there would be dozen of them because cross is so hard and cold kids are discouraged from it in the early years of their racing. Not exactly born in the muddy off camber. But then again I don't know Belgium racing culture that intimately. Or almost at all to be honest

> On Jan 31, 2017, at 1:03 PM, Matt Martel via OBRA wrote:
>
> Ryan,
>
> "...literally born off-camber in the mud"! I love that one! I'll be using it and not giving you the credit! :)
>
> Matt
>
>> On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 12:52 PM, Ryan Francesconi via OBRA wrote:
>> I can easily see why American cross racers don't crack the euro top 5's except rarely. Cycling on natural surfaces in the USA is a bickering war between user groups and is largely illegal. Ironically, where do kids learn to ride on dirt? Kids need paths that have NO CARS on them. NWTA's 'Take a kid mountain biking day' is only one day a year, and the parents must DRIVE the bikes to cascade locks to ride a trail that is beginner friendly. HUH?
>>
>> No fkn chance against Wout or MVDP who were literally born off-camber in the mud.
>>
>> Sure, a scene like Portland is known internationally for its inclusionary "grass roots" racing, but yet there is *nowhere at all* to actually practice cross. Gateway green will be a first here, and I'm quite interested to see what else comes to the table in regard to the Offroad cycling master plan. I hold out some amount of hope! For the children!
>>
>> Countries like Belguim and Netherlands (and even Czech rep.) (whom dominate all UCI cx events) have a mainstream culture relationship to cx. It's a national sport, Like NFL is here. Imagine if there was the same amount of resources given to cycling as there is to little league football. It's really a mind-fk when you go to Belguim and see the "fans" that show up at these races. Wow!
>>
>> The questions and answers are obvious, but the solution is not.
>>
>> The real solution lies deep down in the dark depths of the US automotive industry lobby. If you really want change, the actions required are so much deeper than anyone possibly imagines. They want kids to DRIVE at 16 not ride a bike.
>>
>> Ryan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: "Marek Litinsky"
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2017 3:33pm
>> To: "Ryan Francesconi" , obra@list.obra.org
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Road Racing / Diminishing interest / etc
>>
>> Ryan, you totally hit the mark on all the points except me winning all fondos. As soon as other racers who put in the work in training would line up I'll be just the pack fodder.
>>
>> To me OBRA and usac racing (and let's not pretend that OBRA on principle does it hardest to comply with usac rules verbatim) should come with warning :HAVE FUN, BUT PLEASE DON'T SHOW INTEREST IN ANY WORLD CLASS RACING ON TV AROUND THE WORLD BECAUSE WE WORK ACTIVELY ON LOWERING STANDARDS OF COMPETING. YOU WILL BE DISAPPOINTED.
>>
>> This country has the easiest access to bikes. Racing is way way beyond accessible (that's THE problem btw.) and on top of that boasts talent pool of whopping 350 millions of potential racers. Why is there only such a low number of successful road pros out there? Why can't pinnacle of US cross racing crack top five in any world race, heck almost not even top 20?
>>
>> The fault is not of course on those racers that do get there. Stephen Hyde, Tejay Van Gardener etc are undoubtedly doing thrir best and this is not accusation of any racer out there.
>>
>> What is failing is this "race" system wit its ongoing race to the bottom, creating more categories, more separation between racers and failing to create any heroes and idols. Racing is hard. You need a dream with hero in it and it's not cat 4 master 35-37. I don't know if you remember being a kid or if you even raced as a kid but I'm sure you didn't start because you wanted to be as good cat 4 raced as possible. It's the top level of the sport that creates participation and not the other way.
>>
>> Top athletes should be awarded not vilified for taking it too seriously. Juniors and upcoming talent (aka cat 3 crowd) should race with the rest of the adults to progress with them. That's why I believe we should advocate for combine fields for all senior men and women. Not total beginners. Not for young juniors. And not for Masters.
>>
>> Also if racing as it should be is too aggressive and hard for you please check out what Ryan actually does with omtm.cc
>>
>> No teams, no numbers, no money, no glory. Just riding for getting you kicks in with people who like the same type of fun. It's so much fun and those are my favorite rides of the year. It's not bike racing though.
>>
>> > On Jan 31, 2017, at 11:32 AM, Ryan Francesconi via OBRA wrote:
>> >
>> > Thought I'd throw my hat into the ring of lions that is the OBRA chat list here... A lot of you are on the inside of this issue in that you want to support road racing, or you're a promoter, or you're an official. I haven't followed this thread closely, but I thought I'd give you the perspective of someone who more or less quit racing here for a number of these speculated issues and started organizing the sorts of rides that maybe directly compete with your numbers. I must say, I do support OBRA, and even though I didn't race last year I still signed up because of this.
>> >
>> > Basically for me in comes down to a 3 part ratio of risk, reward, and energy loss/gain.
>> >
>> > When I evaluate whether to do an event, I'm more or less calculating these three things. If the number is in the negative I do something else.
>> >
>> > I've topped out in all my cats. I'm not going higher than where I am. In fact to even be IN the race for A's/123's/etc, I have to work damn hard for most of the year. I like working hard, so that's ok. But, reward is now gone. No more upgrades, and getting to this point I think I won a grand total of a pair of socks. The only race I actually won I didn't get anything at all. Winning for winning sake is meaningless to me, especially if it involves paying to play. That is in the area of energy loss.
>> >
>> > Road race routes are terribly boring to me due to factors outside of your control. Permitting is a pain in the ass -- Not to mention 25c was an evolutionary mistake.
>> >
>> > Road racing is inherently more dangerous than CX. This is one reason you find numbers higher in CX. Less risk = more fun. Everyone is so serious in road races. Being serious = boring. MTB is pretty damn dangerous too, so we'll just ignore that issue for the moment.
>> >
>> > Road racing is horrible in regard to emissions. 3 vehicles per field driving 20mph for 3 hours? No. Races such as PIR or Tabor are better suited to OBRA. We all want to be in a peloton cruising at 30mph through the Alps, but it's simply not cost or environmentally responsible to do this. I cannot approve of professional road racing for this reason as well. (Though I'm a fan of course)
>> >
>> > To race here you must devote a large part of your day, or in many cases, the day before AND the day after. You often must DRIVE to the start of the race and then DRIVE home. Then you must lie around the following day watching reruns of the Giro stages wondering what COULD OF BEEN.
>> >
>> > In fact, the amount of reasons TO race are surprisingly few:
>> > 1. ?
>> > 2. ?
>> > 3. ?
>> >
>> > Jordan asked, what are *YOU* doing for your community in regard to this issue. Well, for me I started offering what I felt was missing from OBRA. A community that doesn't judge you or rank you. That doesn't have cliques. That doesn't have teams. That doesn't cost anything. That is only about having fun on your bike and seeing some incredible nature and forgotten history from the seat of your bike. That will challenge you and will drop you. (sorry, but we're racers after all).
>> >
>> > In terms of OBRA, I have a hard time seeing a sustainable model there - that's why it's shifting and Kenji is more focused on statewide development issues. Chad mentioned that racing is market driven. Well, bike riding isn't a business for me. It's a passion. It's not governed by rules and regulations. It's guided by freedom and joy. I don't find these things so easily in a race especially if I get yelled at for going over a yellow line.
>> >
>> > I like riding hard and pushing my limits. Yes, I will agree that during a race I will push harder and farther than I thought I could. That is certainly an appeal for some. But for me, that is a small part of the ratio.
>> >
>> > I agree with Marek that the fondo model is better for amateur racing. But of course, Marek is still going to win said fondo and you're not. So...
>> >
>> > One quick note about MTB racing. I love riding trails the most. My favorite thing. But, *Mountain Bike Racing* removes all the things that I love about *Mountain Bike Riding*.
>> >
>> > Cheers!
>> > Ryan
>> >
>> > PS. CX is still rad by my estimation. That's why people still do that.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > OBRA mailing list
>> > obra@list.obra.org
>> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Matt Martel

Ryan,

"...literally born off-camber in the mud"! I love that one! I'll be using
it and not giving you the credit! :)

Matt

On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 12:52 PM, Ryan Francesconi via OBRA <
obra@list.obra.org> wrote:

> I can easily see why American cross racers don't crack the euro top 5's
> except rarely. Cycling on natural surfaces in the USA is a bickering war
> between user groups and is largely illegal. Ironically, where do kids learn
> to ride on dirt? Kids need paths that have NO CARS on them. NWTA's 'Take a
> kid mountain biking day' is only one day a year, and the parents must DRIVE
> the bikes to cascade locks to ride a trail that is beginner friendly. HUH?
>
>
>
> No fkn chance against Wout or MVDP who were literally born off-camber in
> the mud.
>
> Sure, a scene like Portland is known internationally for its inclusionary
> "grass roots" racing, but yet there is *nowhere at all* to actually
> practice cross. Gateway green will be a first here, and I'm quite
> interested to see what else comes to the table in regard to the Offroad
> cycling master plan. I hold out some amount of hope! For the children!
>
> Countries like Belguim and Netherlands (and even Czech rep.) (whom
> dominate all UCI cx events) have a mainstream culture relationship to cx.
> It's a national sport, Like NFL is here. Imagine if there was the same
> amount of resources given to cycling as there is to little league football.
> It's really a mind-fk when you go to Belguim and see the "fans" that show
> up at these races. Wow!
>
> The questions and answers are obvious, but the solution is not.
>
> The real solution lies deep down in the dark depths of the US automotive
> industry lobby. If you really want change, the actions required are so much
> deeper than anyone possibly imagines. They want kids to DRIVE at 16 not
> ride a bike.
>
>
>
> Ryan
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Marek Litinsky"
> Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2017 3:33pm
> To: "Ryan Francesconi" , obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Road Racing / Diminishing interest / etc
>
> Ryan, you totally hit the mark on all the points except me winning all
> fondos. As soon as other racers who put in the work in training would line
> up I'll be just the pack fodder.
>
> To me OBRA and usac racing (and let's not pretend that OBRA on principle
> does it hardest to comply with usac rules verbatim) should come with
> warning :HAVE FUN, BUT PLEASE DON'T SHOW INTEREST IN ANY WORLD CLASS RACING
> ON TV AROUND THE WORLD BECAUSE WE WORK ACTIVELY ON LOWERING STANDARDS OF
> COMPETING. YOU WILL BE DISAPPOINTED.
>
> This country has the easiest access to bikes. Racing is way way beyond
> accessible (that's THE problem btw.) and on top of that boasts talent pool
> of whopping 350 millions of potential racers. Why is there only such a low
> number of successful road pros out there? Why can't pinnacle of US cross
> racing crack top five in any world race, heck almost not even top 20?
>
> The fault is not of course on those racers that do get there. Stephen
> Hyde, Tejay Van Gardener etc are undoubtedly doing thrir best and this is
> not accusation of any racer out there.
>
> What is failing is this "race" system wit its ongoing race to the bottom,
> creating more categories, more separation between racers and failing to
> create any heroes and idols. Racing is hard. You need a dream with hero in
> it and it's not cat 4 master 35-37. I don't know if you remember being a
> kid or if you even raced as a kid but I'm sure you didn't start because you
> wanted to be as good cat 4 raced as possible. It's the top level of the
> sport that creates participation and not the other way.
>
> Top athletes should be awarded not vilified for taking it too seriously.
> Juniors and upcoming talent (aka cat 3 crowd) should race with the rest of
> the adults to progress with them. That's why I believe we should advocate
> for combine fields for all senior men and women. Not total beginners. Not
> for young juniors. And not for Masters.
>
> Also if racing as it should be is too aggressive and hard for you please
> check out what Ryan actually does with omtm.cc
>
> No teams, no numbers, no money, no glory. Just riding for getting you
> kicks in with people who like the same type of fun. It's so much fun and
> those are my favorite rides of the year. It's not bike racing though.
>
> > On Jan 31, 2017, at 11:32 AM, Ryan Francesconi via OBRA <
> obra@list.obra.org> wrote:
> >
> > Thought I'd throw my hat into the ring of lions that is the OBRA chat
> list here... A lot of you are on the inside of this issue in that you want
> to support road racing, or you're a promoter, or you're an official. I
> haven't followed this thread closely, but I thought I'd give you the
> perspective of someone who more or less quit racing here for a number of
> these speculated issues and started organizing the sorts of rides that
> maybe directly compete with your numbers. I must say, I do support OBRA,
> and even though I didn't race last year I still signed up because of this.
> >
> > Basically for me in comes down to a 3 part ratio of risk, reward, and
> energy loss/gain.
> >
> > When I evaluate whether to do an event, I'm more or less calculating
> these three things. If the number is in the negative I do something else.
> >
> > I've topped out in all my cats. I'm not going higher than where I am. In
> fact to even be IN the race for A's/123's/etc, I have to work damn hard for
> most of the year. I like working hard, so that's ok. But, reward is now
> gone. No more upgrades, and getting to this point I think I won a grand
> total of a pair of socks. The only race I actually won I didn't get
> anything at all. Winning for winning sake is meaningless to me, especially
> if it involves paying to play. That is in the area of energy loss.
> >
> > Road race routes are terribly boring to me due to factors outside of
> your control. Permitting is a pain in the ass -- Not to mention 25c was an
> evolutionary mistake.
> >
> > Road racing is inherently more dangerous than CX. This is one reason you
> find numbers higher in CX. Less risk = more fun. Everyone is so serious in
> road races. Being serious = boring. MTB is pretty damn dangerous too, so
> we'll just ignore that issue for the moment.
> >
> > Road racing is horrible in regard to emissions. 3 vehicles per field
> driving 20mph for 3 hours? No. Races such as PIR or Tabor are better suited
> to OBRA. We all want to be in a peloton cruising at 30mph through the Alps,
> but it's simply not cost or environmentally responsible to do this. I
> cannot approve of professional road racing for this reason as well. (Though
> I'm a fan of course)
> >
> > To race here you must devote a large part of your day, or in many cases,
> the day before AND the day after. You often must DRIVE to the start of the
> race and then DRIVE home. Then you must lie around the following day
> watching reruns of the Giro stages wondering what COULD OF BEEN.
> >
> > In fact, the amount of reasons TO race are surprisingly few:
> > 1. ?
> > 2. ?
> > 3. ?
> >
> > Jordan asked, what are *YOU* doing for your community in regard to this
> issue. Well, for me I started offering what I felt was missing from OBRA. A
> community that doesn't judge you or rank you. That doesn't have cliques.
> That doesn't have teams. That doesn't cost anything. That is only about
> having fun on your bike and seeing some incredible nature and forgotten
> history from the seat of your bike. That will challenge you and will drop
> you. (sorry, but we're racers after all).
> >
> > In terms of OBRA, I have a hard time seeing a sustainable model there -
> that's why it's shifting and Kenji is more focused on statewide development
> issues. Chad mentioned that racing is market driven. Well, bike riding
> isn't a business for me. It's a passion. It's not governed by rules and
> regulations. It's guided by freedom and joy. I don't find these things so
> easily in a race especially if I get yelled at for going over a yellow line.
> >
> > I like riding hard and pushing my limits. Yes, I will agree that during
> a race I will push harder and farther than I thought I could. That is
> certainly an appeal for some. But for me, that is a small part of the ratio.
> >
> > I agree with Marek that the fondo model is better for amateur racing.
> But of course, Marek is still going to win said fondo and you're not. So...
> >
> > One quick note about MTB racing. I love riding trails the most. My
> favorite thing. But, *Mountain Bike Racing* removes all the things that I
> love about *Mountain Bike Riding*.
> >
> > Cheers!
> > Ryan
> >
> > PS. CX is still rad by my estimation. That's why people still do that.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

Marek Litinsky

Very good point. But actually supporting my theory of combined fields being better for developing quality racers. Cat 3 women almost always race together with 1/2s. I'm not up to date in details about women racing and maybe I should catch up. I did however stated the same point in my previous email/chat exchange with Lisa Erickson. US women are kicking ass and one of the reasons is racing together in combined fields. Being badasses come with that.

> On Jan 31, 2017, at 12:41 PM, Drew Coleman wrote:
>
> Marek,
> Our women kill it out there on the international level and, judging by the way my new favorite crosser, Ellen Noble, battled this year in World Cup and at worlds, they will continue to do so.
>
> Be sure to loop them in on statements about US cycling success.
>
> D
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Jan 31, 2017, at 12:35 PM, Marek Litinsky via OBRA wrote:
>>
>> Ryan, you totally hit the mark on all the points except me winning all fondos. As soon as other racers who put in the work in training would line up I'll be just the pack fodder.
>>
>> To me OBRA and usac racing (and let's not pretend that OBRA on principle does it hardest to comply with usac rules verbatim) should come with warning :HAVE FUN, BUT PLEASE DON'T SHOW INTEREST IN ANY WORLD CLASS RACING ON TV AROUND THE WORLD BECAUSE WE WORK ACTIVELY ON LOWERING STANDARDS OF COMPETING. YOU WILL BE DISAPPOINTED.
>>
>> This country has the easiest access to bikes. Racing is way way beyond accessible (that's THE problem btw.) and on top of that boasts talent pool of whopping 350 millions of potential racers. Why is there only such a low number of successful road pros out there? Why can't pinnacle of US cross racing crack top five in any world race, heck almost not even top 20?
>>
>> The fault is not of course on those racers that do get there. Stephen Hyde, Tejay Van Gardener etc are undoubtedly doing thrir best and this is not accusation of any racer out there.
>>
>> What is failing is this "race" system wit its ongoing race to the bottom, creating more categories, more separation between racers and failing to create any heroes and idols. Racing is hard. You need a dream with hero in it and it's not cat 4 master 35-37. I don't know if you remember being a kid or if you even raced as a kid but I'm sure you didn't start because you wanted to be as good cat 4 raced as possible. It's the top level of the sport that creates participation and not the other way.
>>
>> Top athletes should be awarded not vilified for taking it too seriously. Juniors and upcoming talent (aka cat 3 crowd) should race with the rest of the adults to progress with them. That's why I believe we should advocate for combine fields for all senior men and women. Not total beginners. Not for young juniors. And not for Masters.
>>
>> Also if racing as it should be is too aggressive and hard for you please check out what Ryan actually does with omtm.cc
>>
>> No teams, no numbers, no money, no glory. Just riding for getting you kicks in with people who like the same type of fun. It's so much fun and those are my favorite rides of the year. It's not bike racing though.
>>
>>> On Jan 31, 2017, at 11:32 AM, Ryan Francesconi via OBRA wrote:
>>>
>>> Thought I'd throw my hat into the ring of lions that is the OBRA chat list here... A lot of you are on the inside of this issue in that you want to support road racing, or you're a promoter, or you're an official. I haven't followed this thread closely, but I thought I'd give you the perspective of someone who more or less quit racing here for a number of these speculated issues and started organizing the sorts of rides that maybe directly compete with your numbers. I must say, I do support OBRA, and even though I didn't race last year I still signed up because of this.
>>>
>>> Basically for me in comes down to a 3 part ratio of risk, reward, and energy loss/gain.
>>>
>>> When I evaluate whether to do an event, I'm more or less calculating these three things. If the number is in the negative I do something else.
>>>
>>> I've topped out in all my cats. I'm not going higher than where I am. In fact to even be IN the race for A's/123's/etc, I have to work damn hard for most of the year. I like working hard, so that's ok. But, reward is now gone. No more upgrades, and getting to this point I think I won a grand total of a pair of socks. The only race I actually won I didn't get anything at all. Winning for winning sake is meaningless to me, especially if it involves paying to play. That is in the area of energy loss.
>>>
>>> Road race routes are terribly boring to me due to factors outside of your control. Permitting is a pain in the ass -- Not to mention 25c was an evolutionary mistake.
>>>
>>> Road racing is inherently more dangerous than CX. This is one reason you find numbers higher in CX. Less risk = more fun. Everyone is so serious in road races. Being serious = boring. MTB is pretty damn dangerous too, so we'll just ignore that issue for the moment.
>>>
>>> Road racing is horrible in regard to emissions. 3 vehicles per field driving 20mph for 3 hours? No. Races such as PIR or Tabor are better suited to OBRA. We all want to be in a peloton cruising at 30mph through the Alps, but it's simply not cost or environmentally responsible to do this. I cannot approve of professional road racing for this reason as well. (Though I'm a fan of course)
>>>
>>> To race here you must devote a large part of your day, or in many cases, the day before AND the day after. You often must DRIVE to the start of the race and then DRIVE home. Then you must lie around the following day watching reruns of the Giro stages wondering what COULD OF BEEN.
>>>
>>> In fact, the amount of reasons TO race are surprisingly few:
>>> 1. ?
>>> 2. ?
>>> 3. ?
>>>
>>> Jordan asked, what are *YOU* doing for your community in regard to this issue. Well, for me I started offering what I felt was missing from OBRA. A community that doesn't judge you or rank you. That doesn't have cliques. That doesn't have teams. That doesn't cost anything. That is only about having fun on your bike and seeing some incredible nature and forgotten history from the seat of your bike. That will challenge you and will drop you. (sorry, but we're racers after all).
>>>
>>> In terms of OBRA, I have a hard time seeing a sustainable model there - that's why it's shifting and Kenji is more focused on statewide development issues. Chad mentioned that racing is market driven. Well, bike riding isn't a business for me. It's a passion. It's not governed by rules and regulations. It's guided by freedom and joy. I don't find these things so easily in a race especially if I get yelled at for going over a yellow line.
>>>
>>> I like riding hard and pushing my limits. Yes, I will agree that during a race I will push harder and farther than I thought I could. That is certainly an appeal for some. But for me, that is a small part of the ratio.
>>>
>>> I agree with Marek that the fondo model is better for amateur racing. But of course, Marek is still going to win said fondo and you're not. So...
>>>
>>> One quick note about MTB racing. I love riding trails the most. My favorite thing. But, *Mountain Bike Racing* removes all the things that I love about *Mountain Bike Riding*.
>>>
>>> Cheers!
>>> Ryan
>>>
>>> PS. CX is still rad by my estimation. That's why people still do that.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Ryan Francesconi

I can easily see why American cross racers don't crack the euro top 5's except rarely. Cycling on natural surfaces in the USA is a bickering war between user groups and is largely illegal. Ironically, where do kids learn to ride on dirt? Kids need paths that have NO CARS on them. NWTA's 'Take a kid mountain biking day' is only one day a year, and the parents must DRIVE the bikes to cascade locks to ride a trail that is beginner friendly. HUH?

No fkn chance against Wout or MVDP who were literally born off-camber in the mud.

Sure, a scene like Portland is known internationally for its inclusionary "grass roots" racing, but yet there is *nowhere at all* to actually practice cross. Gateway green will be a first here, and I'm quite interested to see what else comes to the table in regard to the Offroad cycling master plan. I hold out some amount of hope! For the children!

Countries like Belguim and Netherlands (and even Czech rep.) (whom dominate all UCI cx events) have a mainstream culture relationship to cx. It's a national sport, Like NFL is here. Imagine if there was the same amount of resources given to cycling as there is to little league football. It's really a mind-fk when you go to Belguim and see the "fans" that show up at these races. Wow!

The questions and answers are obvious, but the solution is not.

The real solution lies deep down in the dark depths of the US automotive industry lobby. If you really want change, the actions required are so much deeper than anyone possibly imagines. They want kids to DRIVE at 16 not ride a bike.

Ryan

-----Original Message-----
From: "Marek Litinsky"
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2017 3:33pm
To: "Ryan Francesconi" , obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Road Racing / Diminishing interest / etc

Ryan, you totally hit the mark on all the points except me winning all fondos. As soon as other racers who put in the work in training would line up I'll be just the pack fodder.

To me OBRA and usac racing (and let's not pretend that OBRA on principle does it hardest to comply with usac rules verbatim) should come with warning :HAVE FUN, BUT PLEASE DON'T SHOW INTEREST IN ANY WORLD CLASS RACING ON TV AROUND THE WORLD BECAUSE WE WORK ACTIVELY ON LOWERING STANDARDS OF COMPETING. YOU WILL BE DISAPPOINTED.

This country has the easiest access to bikes. Racing is way way beyond accessible (that's THE problem btw.) and on top of that boasts talent pool of whopping 350 millions of potential racers. Why is there only such a low number of successful road pros out there? Why can't pinnacle of US cross racing crack top five in any world race, heck almost not even top 20?

The fault is not of course on those racers that do get there. Stephen Hyde, Tejay Van Gardener etc are undoubtedly doing thrir best and this is not accusation of any racer out there.

What is failing is this "race" system wit its ongoing race to the bottom, creating more categories, more separation between racers and failing to create any heroes and idols. Racing is hard. You need a dream with hero in it and it's not cat 4 master 35-37. I don't know if you remember being a kid or if you even raced as a kid but I'm sure you didn't start because you wanted to be as good cat 4 raced as possible. It's the top level of the sport that creates participation and not the other way.

Top athletes should be awarded not vilified for taking it too seriously. Juniors and upcoming talent (aka cat 3 crowd) should race with the rest of the adults to progress with them. That's why I believe we should advocate for combine fields for all senior men and women. Not total beginners. Not for young juniors. And not for Masters.

Also if racing as it should be is too aggressive and hard for you please check out what Ryan actually does with omtm.cc

No teams, no numbers, no money, no glory. Just riding for getting you kicks in with people who like the same type of fun. It's so much fun and those are my favorite rides of the year. It's not bike racing though.

> On Jan 31, 2017, at 11:32 AM, Ryan Francesconi via OBRA wrote:
>
> Thought I'd throw my hat into the ring of lions that is the OBRA chat list here... A lot of you are on the inside of this issue in that you want to support road racing, or you're a promoter, or you're an official. I haven't followed this thread closely, but I thought I'd give you the perspective of someone who more or less quit racing here for a number of these speculated issues and started organizing the sorts of rides that maybe directly compete with your numbers. I must say, I do support OBRA, and even though I didn't race last year I still signed up because of this.
>
> Basically for me in comes down to a 3 part ratio of risk, reward, and energy loss/gain.
>
> When I evaluate whether to do an event, I'm more or less calculating these three things. If the number is in the negative I do something else.
>
> I've topped out in all my cats. I'm not going higher than where I am. In fact to even be IN the race for A's/123's/etc, I have to work damn hard for most of the year. I like working hard, so that's ok. But, reward is now gone. No more upgrades, and getting to this point I think I won a grand total of a pair of socks. The only race I actually won I didn't get anything at all. Winning for winning sake is meaningless to me, especially if it involves paying to play. That is in the area of energy loss.
>
> Road race routes are terribly boring to me due to factors outside of your control. Permitting is a pain in the ass -- Not to mention 25c was an evolutionary mistake.
>
> Road racing is inherently more dangerous than CX. This is one reason you find numbers higher in CX. Less risk = more fun. Everyone is so serious in road races. Being serious = boring. MTB is pretty damn dangerous too, so we'll just ignore that issue for the moment.
>
> Road racing is horrible in regard to emissions. 3 vehicles per field driving 20mph for 3 hours? No. Races such as PIR or Tabor are better suited to OBRA. We all want to be in a peloton cruising at 30mph through the Alps, but it's simply not cost or environmentally responsible to do this. I cannot approve of professional road racing for this reason as well. (Though I'm a fan of course)
>
> To race here you must devote a large part of your day, or in many cases, the day before AND the day after. You often must DRIVE to the start of the race and then DRIVE home. Then you must lie around the following day watching reruns of the Giro stages wondering what COULD OF BEEN.
>
> In fact, the amount of reasons TO race are surprisingly few:
> 1. ?
> 2. ?
> 3. ?
>
> Jordan asked, what are *YOU* doing for your community in regard to this issue. Well, for me I started offering what I felt was missing from OBRA. A community that doesn't judge you or rank you. That doesn't have cliques. That doesn't have teams. That doesn't cost anything. That is only about having fun on your bike and seeing some incredible nature and forgotten history from the seat of your bike. That will challenge you and will drop you. (sorry, but we're racers after all).
>
> In terms of OBRA, I have a hard time seeing a sustainable model there - that's why it's shifting and Kenji is more focused on statewide development issues. Chad mentioned that racing is market driven. Well, bike riding isn't a business for me. It's a passion. It's not governed by rules and regulations. It's guided by freedom and joy. I don't find these things so easily in a race especially if I get yelled at for going over a yellow line.
>
> I like riding hard and pushing my limits. Yes, I will agree that during a race I will push harder and farther than I thought I could. That is certainly an appeal for some. But for me, that is a small part of the ratio.
>
> I agree with Marek that the fondo model is better for amateur racing. But of course, Marek is still going to win said fondo and you're not. So...
>
> One quick note about MTB racing. I love riding trails the most. My favorite thing. But, *Mountain Bike Racing* removes all the things that I love about *Mountain Bike Riding*.
>
> Cheers!
> Ryan
>
> PS. CX is still rad by my estimation. That's why people still do that.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Drew Coleman

Marek,
Our women kill it out there on the international level and, judging by the way my new favorite crosser, Ellen Noble, battled this year in World Cup and at worlds, they will continue to do so.

Be sure to loop them in on statements about US cycling success.

D

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 31, 2017, at 12:35 PM, Marek Litinsky via OBRA wrote:
>
> Ryan, you totally hit the mark on all the points except me winning all fondos. As soon as other racers who put in the work in training would line up I'll be just the pack fodder.
>
> To me OBRA and usac racing (and let's not pretend that OBRA on principle does it hardest to comply with usac rules verbatim) should come with warning :HAVE FUN, BUT PLEASE DON'T SHOW INTEREST IN ANY WORLD CLASS RACING ON TV AROUND THE WORLD BECAUSE WE WORK ACTIVELY ON LOWERING STANDARDS OF COMPETING. YOU WILL BE DISAPPOINTED.
>
> This country has the easiest access to bikes. Racing is way way beyond accessible (that's THE problem btw.) and on top of that boasts talent pool of whopping 350 millions of potential racers. Why is there only such a low number of successful road pros out there? Why can't pinnacle of US cross racing crack top five in any world race, heck almost not even top 20?
>
> The fault is not of course on those racers that do get there. Stephen Hyde, Tejay Van Gardener etc are undoubtedly doing thrir best and this is not accusation of any racer out there.
>
> What is failing is this "race" system wit its ongoing race to the bottom, creating more categories, more separation between racers and failing to create any heroes and idols. Racing is hard. You need a dream with hero in it and it's not cat 4 master 35-37. I don't know if you remember being a kid or if you even raced as a kid but I'm sure you didn't start because you wanted to be as good cat 4 raced as possible. It's the top level of the sport that creates participation and not the other way.
>
> Top athletes should be awarded not vilified for taking it too seriously. Juniors and upcoming talent (aka cat 3 crowd) should race with the rest of the adults to progress with them. That's why I believe we should advocate for combine fields for all senior men and women. Not total beginners. Not for young juniors. And not for Masters.
>
> Also if racing as it should be is too aggressive and hard for you please check out what Ryan actually does with omtm.cc
>
> No teams, no numbers, no money, no glory. Just riding for getting you kicks in with people who like the same type of fun. It's so much fun and those are my favorite rides of the year. It's not bike racing though.
>
>> On Jan 31, 2017, at 11:32 AM, Ryan Francesconi via OBRA wrote:
>>
>> Thought I'd throw my hat into the ring of lions that is the OBRA chat list here... A lot of you are on the inside of this issue in that you want to support road racing, or you're a promoter, or you're an official. I haven't followed this thread closely, but I thought I'd give you the perspective of someone who more or less quit racing here for a number of these speculated issues and started organizing the sorts of rides that maybe directly compete with your numbers. I must say, I do support OBRA, and even though I didn't race last year I still signed up because of this.
>>
>> Basically for me in comes down to a 3 part ratio of risk, reward, and energy loss/gain.
>>
>> When I evaluate whether to do an event, I'm more or less calculating these three things. If the number is in the negative I do something else.
>>
>> I've topped out in all my cats. I'm not going higher than where I am. In fact to even be IN the race for A's/123's/etc, I have to work damn hard for most of the year. I like working hard, so that's ok. But, reward is now gone. No more upgrades, and getting to this point I think I won a grand total of a pair of socks. The only race I actually won I didn't get anything at all. Winning for winning sake is meaningless to me, especially if it involves paying to play. That is in the area of energy loss.
>>
>> Road race routes are terribly boring to me due to factors outside of your control. Permitting is a pain in the ass -- Not to mention 25c was an evolutionary mistake.
>>
>> Road racing is inherently more dangerous than CX. This is one reason you find numbers higher in CX. Less risk = more fun. Everyone is so serious in road races. Being serious = boring. MTB is pretty damn dangerous too, so we'll just ignore that issue for the moment.
>>
>> Road racing is horrible in regard to emissions. 3 vehicles per field driving 20mph for 3 hours? No. Races such as PIR or Tabor are better suited to OBRA. We all want to be in a peloton cruising at 30mph through the Alps, but it's simply not cost or environmentally responsible to do this. I cannot approve of professional road racing for this reason as well. (Though I'm a fan of course)
>>
>> To race here you must devote a large part of your day, or in many cases, the day before AND the day after. You often must DRIVE to the start of the race and then DRIVE home. Then you must lie around the following day watching reruns of the Giro stages wondering what COULD OF BEEN.
>>
>> In fact, the amount of reasons TO race are surprisingly few:
>> 1. ?
>> 2. ?
>> 3. ?
>>
>> Jordan asked, what are *YOU* doing for your community in regard to this issue. Well, for me I started offering what I felt was missing from OBRA. A community that doesn't judge you or rank you. That doesn't have cliques. That doesn't have teams. That doesn't cost anything. That is only about having fun on your bike and seeing some incredible nature and forgotten history from the seat of your bike. That will challenge you and will drop you. (sorry, but we're racers after all).
>>
>> In terms of OBRA, I have a hard time seeing a sustainable model there - that's why it's shifting and Kenji is more focused on statewide development issues. Chad mentioned that racing is market driven. Well, bike riding isn't a business for me. It's a passion. It's not governed by rules and regulations. It's guided by freedom and joy. I don't find these things so easily in a race especially if I get yelled at for going over a yellow line.
>>
>> I like riding hard and pushing my limits. Yes, I will agree that during a race I will push harder and farther than I thought I could. That is certainly an appeal for some. But for me, that is a small part of the ratio.
>>
>> I agree with Marek that the fondo model is better for amateur racing. But of course, Marek is still going to win said fondo and you're not. So...
>>
>> One quick note about MTB racing. I love riding trails the most. My favorite thing. But, *Mountain Bike Racing* removes all the things that I love about *Mountain Bike Riding*.
>>
>> Cheers!
>> Ryan
>>
>> PS. CX is still rad by my estimation. That's why people still do that.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Marek Litinsky

Ryan, you totally hit the mark on all the points except me winning all fondos. As soon as other racers who put in the work in training would line up I'll be just the pack fodder.

To me OBRA and usac racing (and let's not pretend that OBRA on principle does it hardest to comply with usac rules verbatim) should come with warning :HAVE FUN, BUT PLEASE DON'T SHOW INTEREST IN ANY WORLD CLASS RACING ON TV AROUND THE WORLD BECAUSE WE WORK ACTIVELY ON LOWERING STANDARDS OF COMPETING. YOU WILL BE DISAPPOINTED.

This country has the easiest access to bikes. Racing is way way beyond accessible (that's THE problem btw.) and on top of that boasts talent pool of whopping 350 millions of potential racers. Why is there only such a low number of successful road pros out there? Why can't pinnacle of US cross racing crack top five in any world race, heck almost not even top 20?

The fault is not of course on those racers that do get there. Stephen Hyde, Tejay Van Gardener etc are undoubtedly doing thrir best and this is not accusation of any racer out there.

What is failing is this "race" system wit its ongoing race to the bottom, creating more categories, more separation between racers and failing to create any heroes and idols. Racing is hard. You need a dream with hero in it and it's not cat 4 master 35-37. I don't know if you remember being a kid or if you even raced as a kid but I'm sure you didn't start because you wanted to be as good cat 4 raced as possible. It's the top level of the sport that creates participation and not the other way.

Top athletes should be awarded not vilified for taking it too seriously. Juniors and upcoming talent (aka cat 3 crowd) should race with the rest of the adults to progress with them. That's why I believe we should advocate for combine fields for all senior men and women. Not total beginners. Not for young juniors. And not for Masters.

Also if racing as it should be is too aggressive and hard for you please check out what Ryan actually does with omtm.cc

No teams, no numbers, no money, no glory. Just riding for getting you kicks in with people who like the same type of fun. It's so much fun and those are my favorite rides of the year. It's not bike racing though.

> On Jan 31, 2017, at 11:32 AM, Ryan Francesconi via OBRA wrote:
>
> Thought I'd throw my hat into the ring of lions that is the OBRA chat list here... A lot of you are on the inside of this issue in that you want to support road racing, or you're a promoter, or you're an official. I haven't followed this thread closely, but I thought I'd give you the perspective of someone who more or less quit racing here for a number of these speculated issues and started organizing the sorts of rides that maybe directly compete with your numbers. I must say, I do support OBRA, and even though I didn't race last year I still signed up because of this.
>
> Basically for me in comes down to a 3 part ratio of risk, reward, and energy loss/gain.
>
> When I evaluate whether to do an event, I'm more or less calculating these three things. If the number is in the negative I do something else.
>
> I've topped out in all my cats. I'm not going higher than where I am. In fact to even be IN the race for A's/123's/etc, I have to work damn hard for most of the year. I like working hard, so that's ok. But, reward is now gone. No more upgrades, and getting to this point I think I won a grand total of a pair of socks. The only race I actually won I didn't get anything at all. Winning for winning sake is meaningless to me, especially if it involves paying to play. That is in the area of energy loss.
>
> Road race routes are terribly boring to me due to factors outside of your control. Permitting is a pain in the ass -- Not to mention 25c was an evolutionary mistake.
>
> Road racing is inherently more dangerous than CX. This is one reason you find numbers higher in CX. Less risk = more fun. Everyone is so serious in road races. Being serious = boring. MTB is pretty damn dangerous too, so we'll just ignore that issue for the moment.
>
> Road racing is horrible in regard to emissions. 3 vehicles per field driving 20mph for 3 hours? No. Races such as PIR or Tabor are better suited to OBRA. We all want to be in a peloton cruising at 30mph through the Alps, but it's simply not cost or environmentally responsible to do this. I cannot approve of professional road racing for this reason as well. (Though I'm a fan of course)
>
> To race here you must devote a large part of your day, or in many cases, the day before AND the day after. You often must DRIVE to the start of the race and then DRIVE home. Then you must lie around the following day watching reruns of the Giro stages wondering what COULD OF BEEN.
>
> In fact, the amount of reasons TO race are surprisingly few:
> 1. ?
> 2. ?
> 3. ?
>
> Jordan asked, what are *YOU* doing for your community in regard to this issue. Well, for me I started offering what I felt was missing from OBRA. A community that doesn't judge you or rank you. That doesn't have cliques. That doesn't have teams. That doesn't cost anything. That is only about having fun on your bike and seeing some incredible nature and forgotten history from the seat of your bike. That will challenge you and will drop you. (sorry, but we're racers after all).
>
> In terms of OBRA, I have a hard time seeing a sustainable model there - that's why it's shifting and Kenji is more focused on statewide development issues. Chad mentioned that racing is market driven. Well, bike riding isn't a business for me. It's a passion. It's not governed by rules and regulations. It's guided by freedom and joy. I don't find these things so easily in a race especially if I get yelled at for going over a yellow line.
>
> I like riding hard and pushing my limits. Yes, I will agree that during a race I will push harder and farther than I thought I could. That is certainly an appeal for some. But for me, that is a small part of the ratio.
>
> I agree with Marek that the fondo model is better for amateur racing. But of course, Marek is still going to win said fondo and you're not. So...
>
> One quick note about MTB racing. I love riding trails the most. My favorite thing. But, *Mountain Bike Racing* removes all the things that I love about *Mountain Bike Riding*.
>
> Cheers!
> Ryan
>
> PS. CX is still rad by my estimation. That's why people still do that.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Ryan Francesconi

Thought I'd throw my hat into the ring of lions that is the OBRA��chat list here... A lot of you are on the inside of this issue in that you want to support road racing, or you're a promoter, or you're an official. I haven't followed this thread closely, but I thought I'd give you the perspective of someone who more or less quit racing here for a number of these speculated issues and started organizing the sorts of rides that maybe directly compete with your numbers. I must say, I do support OBRA, and even though I didn't race last year I still signed up because of this.
��
Basically for me in comes down to a 3 part ratio of risk, reward, and energy loss/gain.
��
When I evaluate whether to do an event, I'm more or less calculating these three things. If the number is in the negative I do something else.
��
I've topped out in all my cats. I'm not going higher than where I am. In fact to even be IN the race for A's/123's/etc, I have to work damn hard for most of the year.��I like working hard, so that's ok. But, reward is now gone. No more upgrades, and getting to this point I think I won a grand total of a pair of socks. The only race I actually won I didn't get anything at all. Winning for winning sake is meaningless to me, especially if it involves paying to play. That is in the area of energy loss.��
��
Road race��routes are terribly boring��to me due to factors outside of your control. Permitting is a pain in the ass��-- Not to mention 25c was an evolutionary mistake.
��
Road racing is inherently more dangerous than CX. This is one reason you find numbers higher in CX. Less risk = more fun. Everyone is so serious in road races. Being serious = boring. MTB is pretty damn dangerous too, so we'll just ignore that issue for the moment.
��
Road racing is horrible��in regard to emissions. 3 vehicles per field driving 20mph for 3 hours? No. Races such as PIR or Tabor are better suited to OBRA. We all want to be in a peloton cruising at 30mph through the Alps, but it's simply not cost or environmentally responsible to do this. I cannot approve of professional road racing for this reason as well. (Though I'm a fan of course)
��
To race here you must devote a large part of your day, or in many cases, the day before AND��the day after. You often must DRIVE to the start of the race and then DRIVE home. Then you must lie around the following day watching reruns of the Giro stages wondering what COULD OF BEEN.
��
In fact, the amount of reasons TO race are surprisingly few:
1. ?
2. ?
3. ?
��
Jordan asked, what are *YOU* doing for your community in regard to this issue. Well, for me I started offering what I felt was missing from OBRA. A��community that doesn't judge you or rank you. That doesn't have cliques. That doesn't have teams. That doesn't cost anything. That is only about having fun on your bike and seeing some incredible nature and forgotten history from the seat of your bike. That will challenge you and will drop you. (sorry, but we're racers after all).
��
In terms of OBRA, I have a hard time seeing a sustainable model there - that's why it's shifting and Kenji is more focused on statewide development issues. Chad mentioned that racing is market driven. Well, bike riding isn't a business for me. It's a passion. It's not governed by rules and regulations. It's guided by freedom and joy. I don't find these things so easily in a race especially if I get yelled at for going over a yellow line.
��
I like riding hard and pushing my limits. Yes, I will agree that during a race I will push harder and farther than I thought I could. That is certainly an appeal for some. But for me, that is a small part of the ratio.
��
I agree with Marek that the fondo model is better for amateur racing. But of course, Marek is still going to win said fondo and you're not. So...
��
One quick note about MTB racing. I love riding trails the most. My favorite thing. But, *Mountain Bike Racing* removes all the things that I love about *Mountain Bike Riding*.
��
Cheers!
Ryan

PS. CX is still rad by my estimation. That's why people still do that.

��
��
��
��
��
��
��
��
��
��
��
��
��
��
��