Andrew Springer

9AM Departure from Ovation Coffee Every Sunday - 941 NW Overton

John Schmidt

I have not been on the shootout ride (and might never be, getting too old,
busy on Sunday morning etc, looking at my mtb again, something I was last
serious about 31 years ago), but IMHO something like this is super
important to develop and foster road racing. As we all know, in many
places across the US, these sorts of rides exist, typically though on Tues
Thurs or a Wed evening. I learned to ride in Michigan in club format that
did this. No re-grouping is important ! or you will never develop the
proper desire to learn how to draft properly. If you got dropped you just
rode to the end or shortcut the course and re-joined (usually only to get
dropped again). If need be maybe one experienced rider would be designated
to stay back with any dropped newbies, but of course this was before cell
phones and online maps, etc..) But wow was it great when I could finally
stick with the group, and even cooler when I started being able to go for
sprint points. This was 28 years ago!

This is where you learn to draft and practice pace-lines. Half the battle
in road racing is drafting. Something that many (sorry if not most?)
racers and riders in Portland are not as good as they could be. Why? my
theory, too many interruptions or too many rides with hills, and up till
now, not really any rides where people can practice, or maybe too many
runners turning cyclists :)? Cycling is a sport (at our level at least)
where you have to work together / be temporary teammates with whomever (at
least up to the sprint). If you can't draft or be a wheel sucker _to
perfection_ you will never be a top road racer (imho) unless you are super
gifted.

I quit years ago trying to teach PNW cyclists how to do pace-lines; It's
just hopeless/frustrating :(
Well... Or a hill or traffic light would break anything up anyway before
anyone would start getting a sense of it. so the hell with it.

I have ridden with somewhat renowned groups here and there, (there'll be a
side wind) we're rotating the wrong direction. We might as well have been
riding individually : ) I say something, no one listens, especially the
fit or "experienced" guy who thinks he knows everything (and Ok here am I,
out of shape looking like a Fred maybe, who is going to listen? :) .
Having had the out-of breath on-the-road arguments before about this
subject, its just not worth it anymore,starting about 15 year ago I just
shut my mouth, and accept the extra workout :) But it is SOO frustrating,
We could be going SOO much faster !

Or someone goes to the front and pulls waaay too long. Of course if this
happens, it shows the ignorance of all the people near the front.
Or I am pulling and bouncing on my anerobic region. Most half decent cat
4s in the Midwest (at least back in the day) would recognize this
immediately and come to the rescue. Nope not here, i have to do some sort
of heroic elbow throw. Even on the track for some reason everyone thinks
you have to wait for the corner. If you sense it, come through NOW, before
I blow, and by the way that's why i left you room! (although now this
doesn't really apply to me; anymore I am going to implode anyway :)

What's really unfortunate is that if there is a strong/gifted rider ; that
they don't learn proper drafting/pacelines /"working with others" .
He/she doesn't need too, right ? Capable of just going to the front and
hammering away... Well this is great until he/she enters the big race and
for some reason things don't click with the other riders. Just not in sync
with that guy/gal from Ohio that you broke away with. The break fails,
the pack surges, you get blown out the back, even though you won the the
hillclimb or did really well in the TT, etc. Well the most likely issue
is that you never learned / never practiced the fine art/skill of
pace-lining and drafting.

But hopefully with this PDX shootout ride, PDX people can start learning.
Practice !, its a lot of fun to get away with 2 or 3 others and make it
stick. Then in the main pack, its a lot of fun trying to get organized and
chase. Then for the dropped riders, join up, keep practicing your
pace-line and keep chasing. It's a very subtle and delicate balance, each
rider skirting anaerobic. you must balance effort among the riders. one
little screw up, one miss of 5 sec of easy or someone surges, and you or
your "teammate" blows, well you blew it , so much for the kinetic energy
and momentum :)

Then its even more fun, going to the local road race and put practice to
good use !

There have been a few races I've been in where the back half of the pack
was blown apart in a side wind. With much cajoling, I managed to get a
pace-line / echelon of dropped riders, and we chased. After 25 miles or
so, we managed to re-join the front pack about 5 miles from the end. Just
barely enough time to start working to front for the sprint. That's
another thing I remember about those Midwest cat 4 / cat 3 races. If you
were lazy for most of the race, but still wanted to contest the sprint at
the end, you would need to start working towards the front at least 10-15
miles out, it could take that long to squirm your way through the pack of
brake hood brushed hips.

btw, back then, as cat4 / 3 racer*, say over 10-20 miles on mostly flat
roads
by myself, ~ 22 mph average
with 2 of us 25~26 mph
with 3 of us 27+ mph plus
with 4 plus riders 30+ mph

[-with typical road bike, 32 spoke box sec rim, drop handlebars. steel
frame]
[-riders pretty well balanced in fitness, and able to do nearly perfect
rotating. ]

*well one year when I actually managed to train more, and did place 8th in
the ~100 mile pro, 1,2,3 state road race...
That's when i weighed about 50 lbs less than i do now : )

Have fun and be safe out there.

If I do get in some sort of shape to make it out, you'll find me tucked in
tight riding the gutter.

On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 7:59 AM, Adam Angert via OBRA
wrote:

> Tommaso, I can't help but notice that you've only supported one race so
> far this season. Meanwhile, I have seen most of the people in the Sauvie
> Shootout "A Group" at almost every road race this season. In both Oregon
> and Washington. So I guess I'm not really sure who your painfully
> condescending message was directed at.
>
> _______________________________________________
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> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

John Wilger

On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 10:19 AM, Elizabeth Gardiner via OBRA <
obra@list.obra.org> wrote:

> As cyclists, we all understand that pissing in public only gets you in
> trouble.
>

Ah... Maybe that's the problem. Having seemingly resolved that particular
thread during a previous season, we, as a community, needed to pick a new
thing to argue about on the OBRA list for this season. It's tradition! We
tried with both the fundraising for Gorge Roubaix and the whole
Strava-based stage race thing, but those by their nature were unable to
provide fodder for an entire season's worth of debate. This one could
stick, though!

--
John Wilger | +1 (971) 678-0999 | http://johnwilger.com

LORI BRAULT

Be careful out there....people vote with their feetz!

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 10, 2017, at 10:19 AM, Elizabeth Gardiner via OBRA wrote:
>
> Geeeeeze... this is why we can't have nice things.
>
> We are all cyclists who (presumably) want to race. We have a responsibility to support the race scene that we want to exist - nobody denies that. That said, we can also help grow excitement about cycling and build a sense of community by participating in rides like the Shootout. The two things can coexist without the conversation around it turning into a big, public pissing match. As cyclists, we all understand that pissing in public only gets you in trouble. Similarly, all of this public bickering is only going to hurt the OBRA community. Imagine being new to the area, logging in to OBRA, and seeing these conversations as your "welcome" to the organization. We've got to cut this out, please.
>
> Pick your own applicable quote to finish out the email:
> "Be the change."
> "Praise in public, admonish in private."
> "Shut up, legs."
>
> EG
>
>
>
>
>> On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 9:22 AM, Tommaso Gomez via OBRA wrote:
>> Adam, my message was directed to people who are still opting to ride the Sauvie Shootout every weekend instead of attending races outside of Portland. When you guys have more than 60 people racing at a group rides April, it's clearly hurting attendance at races outside of Portland. That's rather concerning at a time when most promoters are struggling to break even and some great races like the Gorge Roubaix aren't coming back next year. As for myself, I raced in Echo last Saturday (same day as the Roubaix), I volunteered at the Gorge Grinder the next morning, and I will be attending nearly every mountain bike race on the calendar.
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
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> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

David Hart

Erik nailed it. Thank you.

Participation is slightly declining for road and this will help get more
people involved. Just doing it smart, which is what I'm getting from the
ride organizer.

On Apr 10, 2017 10:27 AM, "Erik Voldengen via OBRA"
wrote:

> There's a healthy "B" group forming on the shootout, too. Many of them
> are extremely inexperienced with riding in packs. We worked on pacelines
> and riding tight. With a little encouragement, I think a lot of these
> folks might try racing this summer. The "A" people are going to race,
> period. The "B" group is where rides like this can actually grow OBRA
> event participation.
>
>
> - Erik
>
> On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 9:22 AM, Tommaso Gomez via OBRA <
> obra@list.obra.org> wrote:
>
>> Adam, my message was directed to people who are still opting to ride the
>> Sauvie Shootout every weekend instead of attending races outside of
>> Portland. When you guys have more than 60 people racing at a group rides
>> April, it's clearly hurting attendance at races outside of Portland. That's
>> rather concerning at a time when most promoters are struggling to break
>> even and some great races like the Gorge Roubaix aren't coming back next
>> year. As for myself, I raced in Echo last Saturday (same day as the
>> Roubaix), I volunteered at the Gorge Grinder the next morning, and I will
>> be attending nearly every mountain bike race on the calendar.
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

Elizabeth Gardiner

Geeeeeze... this is why we can't have nice things.

We are all cyclists who (presumably) want to race. We have a responsibility
to support the race scene that we want to exist - nobody denies that. That
said, we can *also* help grow excitement about cycling and build a sense of
community by participating in rides like the Shootout. The two things can
coexist without the conversation around it turning into a big, public
pissing match. As cyclists, we all understand that pissing in public only
gets you in trouble. Similarly, all of this public bickering is only going
to hurt the OBRA community. Imagine being new to the area, logging in to
OBRA, and seeing these conversations as your "welcome" to the organization.
We've got to cut this out, please.

Pick your own applicable quote to finish out the email:
"Be the change."
"Praise in public, admonish in private."
"Shut up, legs."

EG

On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 9:22 AM, Tommaso Gomez via OBRA
wrote:

> Adam, my message was directed to people who are still opting to ride the
> Sauvie Shootout every weekend instead of attending races outside of
> Portland. When you guys have more than 60 people racing at a group rides
> April, it's clearly hurting attendance at races outside of Portland. That's
> rather concerning at a time when most promoters are struggling to break
> even and some great races like the Gorge Roubaix aren't coming back next
> year. As for myself, I raced in Echo last Saturday (same day as the
> Roubaix), I volunteered at the Gorge Grinder the next morning, and I will
> be attending nearly every mountain bike race on the calendar.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Robert Jackson

I support Tommaso's sentiment that local races need more support and
further support the group rides as an on ramp to road racing. I don't think
these need to be mutually exclusive. However the races require more
planning and prep, thus might not happen the following years without
support. The group rides can (and do) organize with little notice and
little (if any) investment of capital as compared to races. I've chosen to
support road racing in ways other than by actually racing and encourage
everyone to support the racing community in the way that best suits them
but delivers the end result more and better racing opportunities in Oregon.
IMO.

On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 9:38 AM Tommaso Gomez via OBRA
wrote:

> Adam, my message was directed to people who are still opting to ride the
> Sauvie Shootout every weekend instead of attending races outside of
> Portland. When you guys have more than 60 people racing at a group rides
> April, it's clearly hurting attendance at races outside of Portland. That's
> rather concerning at a time when most promoters are struggling to break
> even and some great races like the Gorge Roubaix aren't coming back next
> year. As for myself, I raced in Echo last Saturday (same day as the
> Roubaix), I volunteered at the Gorge Grinder the next morning, and I will
> be attending nearly every mountain bike race on the calendar.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Erik Voldengen

There's a healthy "B" group forming on the shootout, too. Many of them are
extremely inexperienced with riding in packs. We worked on pacelines and
riding tight. With a little encouragement, I think a lot of these folks
might try racing this summer. The "A" people are going to race, period.
The "B" group is where rides like this can actually grow OBRA event
participation.

- Erik

On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 9:22 AM, Tommaso Gomez via OBRA
wrote:

> Adam, my message was directed to people who are still opting to ride the
> Sauvie Shootout every weekend instead of attending races outside of
> Portland. When you guys have more than 60 people racing at a group rides
> April, it's clearly hurting attendance at races outside of Portland. That's
> rather concerning at a time when most promoters are struggling to break
> even and some great races like the Gorge Roubaix aren't coming back next
> year. As for myself, I raced in Echo last Saturday (same day as the
> Roubaix), I volunteered at the Gorge Grinder the next morning, and I will
> be attending nearly every mountain bike race on the calendar.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Adam Angert

Maybe promoters are struggling because they aren't offering events that people want to do. If the Gorge Roubaix is so great, why doesn't it attract enough racers to continue?

There was a TT yesterday. What if the 60 people who opted for Sauvie Shootout find TT's to be mind numbingly boring? Should we have just stayed home?

Maybe we just don't have enough racers to support the number of events on the calendar?

There are so many non-racers who show up to the Sauvie Shootout. They have the opportunity to meet racers, see what hard riding and pace lines are all about. They can get a free OBRA single event pass from Andrew so they can dip their toe into bike racing. It's about fostering a sense of community and growing bike racing, not diminishing it.

If you've got a better idea for growing the community, great. Take the initiative and get it going.

Also, check out this fun blog post: http://bicyclekitty.blogspot.com/2017/04/freds-vs-fasties.html

Robert

We would love to know how you determined that it is hurting attendance. You said "clearly", but it certainly isn't obvious. Please share your insightful research with the rest of the list. We are eager to learn how eliminating group rides will drive attendance up at the races. We can target the local bike clubs elimination as well and fill up every race. Please, share this secret with us.

Also, if you were so concerned about the races outside of the Portland area, why didn't you attend? They all had Cat 5 fields .....

--
Sent by an Android >^•^<

On April 10, 2017 9:22:08 AM PDT, Tommaso Gomez via OBRA wrote:
>Adam, my message was directed to people who are still opting to ride
>the Sauvie Shootout every weekend instead of attending races outside of
>Portland. When you guys have more than 60 people racing at a group
>rides April, it's clearly hurting attendance at races outside of
>Portland. That's rather concerning at a time when most promoters are
>struggling to break even and some great races like the Gorge Roubaix
>aren't coming back next year. As for myself, I raced in Echo last
>Saturday (same day as the Roubaix), I volunteered at the Gorge Grinder
>the next morning, and I will be attending nearly every mountain bike
>race on the calendar.
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Tommaso Gomez

Adam, my message was directed to people who are still opting to ride the Sauvie Shootout every weekend instead of attending races outside of Portland. When you guys have more than 60 people racing at a group rides April, it's clearly hurting attendance at races outside of Portland. That's rather concerning at a time when most promoters are struggling to break even and some great races like the Gorge Roubaix aren't coming back next year. As for myself, I raced in Echo last Saturday (same day as the Roubaix), I volunteered at the Gorge Grinder the next morning, and I will be attending nearly every mountain bike race on the calendar.

Adam Angert

Tommaso, I can't help but notice that you've only supported one race so far this season. Meanwhile, I have seen most of the people in the Sauvie Shootout "A Group" at almost every road race this season. In both Oregon and Washington. So I guess I'm not really sure who your painfully condescending message was directed at.

Tommaso Gomez

"How have we not been doing this before?" Well, in past years, some folks were busy doing this:
https://vimeo.com/161603929
or this...
https://vimeo.com/124641487
or this...
https://vimeo.com/157958167
I realize that some people have obligations outside of racing that prevent them from attending races outside of Portland. That's understandable, but don't tell me that pacelining around two pumpkin farms is somehow comparable to racing in Mosier, The Dalles, Echo, or Kings Valley. If people don't start supporting races outside of Portland (across all cycling disciplines, not just road), you will wake up to a world of racing exclusively at PIR. Sauvie Island is a fine place to ride - after an ice storm. Get out of the city and support the beautiful races. Try something new and challenging and don't flake out because of the weather. There is way more to Oregon than Portland city limits and I'm amazed at how many people take that for granted in this community.

Adam Angert

Agreed. In seven years as an OBRA member, I've never had such a positive community experience as on the Shootout.
Another day of amazing turnout. 60+ riders?

Nate gibson

Fun, fast, free and possibly
Harder than some regional Road races. What a great ride, how have we not been doing this for years?!

Hope you all can make it next week!