Where's the outrage?

Jack Bennett

November 14, 2017 at 8:39 PM

Amen.

.................................  Jack Bennett  bennett.jack@yahoo.com .................................

On Tuesday, November 14, 2017, 8:04:08 PM PST, Eric Aldinger via OBRA wrote:

THank you all for talking about this. 
On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 2:13 PM, Tom Orth via OBRA wrote:

This is great. The different experiences thing is hitting us all right now. The video of of the woman walking through NYC being cat called continuously, and the more recent ME TOO phenomenon, has been eye opening and sobering for me, and I suspect most/all men.  Learning that my friends and family have been impacted in such a way has been depressing and sickening. It's amazing that they are so well adjusted, smiling, and nice to ANYONE! It never occurred to me how simply walking outside, getting on the bus, going to work, to the store...was a daily act of bravery. It's just not something that 6'3" 210 pound middle aged balding dudes have to think about. If I'm being honest, I'm not sure my skin is thick enough, or if I'm brave enough, or have the social skills, or presence of mind to handle being a woman.  It would be silly to to think those experiences, or lack of the same, wouldn't shape anyone's response to any and all unsolicited touching, however innocently motivated and intended, whether direct or indirect. 
On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 1:25 PM, Dave Sanderling via OBRA wrote:

I think we're ignoring the elephant in the room: Obviously, men and women have different experiences.

Most guys (even if kind and innocent) have the privilege of blissful unawareness of the different world that women navigate. Maybe you saw the #metoo thing happen? I'm a dad of two young girls, and that really hit me. When I was in middle school, sexual predation was subtly encouraged... I'm not talking about rape, but, well, butt grabbing, staring.. stuff that seemed playful (as a young dude who didn't know any better). As a boy I never had to worry about being preyed upon. As a dad I'm on the other side of that coin.

Yes, consent is still fundamental. But let's be smart about the world we live in too. It's not about whip vs. hand directly touching ass, or Halloween costume or not. (I honestly doubt that anyone will complain about feeling violated by the dominatrix--that's my read on our Portland CX culture.) Is it a double standard? Yes, but a warranted one, based in kindness, understanding, humility... and a slow but hopeful move toward some kind of equality.

This doesn't address the question of OBRA rules, etc. It sounds like the event that ignited this kerfuffle was handled maturely off-list, so, would it be ok to just call that good?

I hope I'm not misrepresenting anyone here..  I can't speak for women (and I didn't have my wife proofread this!).
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joe cipale

November 14, 2017 at 8:20 PM

The thing that irritates me is why this has been allowed to go on as long
as it has. I am fairly certain contestants have NOT been thrilled with
either the hsnd slap, whip or what have you.

Joe

On Nov 14, 2017 8:03 PM, "Eric Aldinger via OBRA"
wrote:

> THank you all for talking about this.
>
> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 2:13 PM, Tom Orth via OBRA
> wrote:
>
>> This is great. The different experiences thing is hitting us all right
>> now. The video of of the woman walking through NYC being cat called
>> continuously, and the more recent ME TOO phenomenon, has been eye opening
>> and sobering for me, and I suspect most/all men. Learning that my friends
>> and family have been impacted in such a way has been depressing and
>> sickening. It's amazing that they are so well adjusted, smiling, and nice
>> to ANYONE! It never occurred to me how simply walking outside, getting on
>> the bus, going to work, to the store...was a daily act of bravery. It's
>> just not something that 6'3" 210 pound middle aged balding dudes have to
>> think about. If I'm being honest, I'm not sure my skin is thick enough, or
>> if I'm brave enough, or have the social skills, or presence of mind to
>> handle being a woman. It would be silly to to think those experiences, or
>> lack of the same, wouldn't shape anyone's response to any and all
>> unsolicited touching, however innocently motivated and intended, whether
>> direct or indirect.
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 1:25 PM, Dave Sanderling via OBRA <
>> obra@list.obra.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I think we're ignoring the elephant in the room: Obviously, men and
>>> women have different experiences.
>>>
>>> Most guys (even if kind and innocent) have the privilege of blissful
>>> unawareness of the different world that women navigate. Maybe you saw the
>>> #metoo thing happen? I'm a dad of two young girls, and that really hit me.
>>> When I was in middle school, sexual predation was subtly encouraged... I'm
>>> not talking about rape, but, well, butt grabbing, staring.. stuff that
>>> seemed playful (as a young dude who didn't know any better). As a boy I
>>> never had to worry about being preyed upon. As a dad I'm on the other side
>>> of that coin.
>>>
>>> Yes, consent is still fundamental. But let's be smart about the world we
>>> live in too. It's not about whip vs. hand directly touching ass, or
>>> Halloween costume or not. (I honestly doubt that anyone will complain about
>>> feeling violated by the dominatrix--that's my read on our Portland CX
>>> culture.) Is it a double standard? Yes, but a warranted one, based in
>>> kindness, understanding, humility... and a slow but hopeful move toward
>>> some kind of equality.
>>>
>>> This doesn't address the question of OBRA rules, etc. It sounds like the
>>> event that ignited this kerfuffle was handled maturely off-list, so, would
>>> it be ok to just call that good?
>>>
>>> I hope I'm not misrepresenting anyone here.. I can't speak for women
>>> (and I didn't have my wife proofread this!).
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Eric Aldinger
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>


Eric Aldinger

November 14, 2017 at 7:56 PM

THank you all for talking about this.

On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 2:13 PM, Tom Orth via OBRA
wrote:

> This is great. The different experiences thing is hitting us all right
> now. The video of of the woman walking through NYC being cat called
> continuously, and the more recent ME TOO phenomenon, has been eye opening
> and sobering for me, and I suspect most/all men. Learning that my friends
> and family have been impacted in such a way has been depressing and
> sickening. It's amazing that they are so well adjusted, smiling, and nice
> to ANYONE! It never occurred to me how simply walking outside, getting on
> the bus, going to work, to the store...was a daily act of bravery. It's
> just not something that 6'3" 210 pound middle aged balding dudes have to
> think about. If I'm being honest, I'm not sure my skin is thick enough, or
> if I'm brave enough, or have the social skills, or presence of mind to
> handle being a woman. It would be silly to to think those experiences, or
> lack of the same, wouldn't shape anyone's response to any and all
> unsolicited touching, however innocently motivated and intended, whether
> direct or indirect.
>
> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 1:25 PM, Dave Sanderling via OBRA <
> obra@list.obra.org> wrote:
>
>> I think we're ignoring the elephant in the room: Obviously, men and women
>> have different experiences.
>>
>> Most guys (even if kind and innocent) have the privilege of blissful
>> unawareness of the different world that women navigate. Maybe you saw the
>> #metoo thing happen? I'm a dad of two young girls, and that really hit me.
>> When I was in middle school, sexual predation was subtly encouraged... I'm
>> not talking about rape, but, well, butt grabbing, staring.. stuff that
>> seemed playful (as a young dude who didn't know any better). As a boy I
>> never had to worry about being preyed upon. As a dad I'm on the other side
>> of that coin.
>>
>> Yes, consent is still fundamental. But let's be smart about the world we
>> live in too. It's not about whip vs. hand directly touching ass, or
>> Halloween costume or not. (I honestly doubt that anyone will complain about
>> feeling violated by the dominatrix--that's my read on our Portland CX
>> culture.) Is it a double standard? Yes, but a warranted one, based in
>> kindness, understanding, humility... and a slow but hopeful move toward
>> some kind of equality.
>>
>> This doesn't address the question of OBRA rules, etc. It sounds like the
>> event that ignited this kerfuffle was handled maturely off-list, so, would
>> it be ok to just call that good?
>>
>> I hope I'm not misrepresenting anyone here.. I can't speak for women
>> (and I didn't have my wife proofread this!).
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

--
Eric Aldinger


Tom Orth

November 14, 2017 at 2:13 PM

This is great. The different experiences thing is hitting us all right now.
The video of of the woman walking through NYC being cat called
continuously, and the more recent ME TOO phenomenon, has been eye opening
and sobering for me, and I suspect most/all men. Learning that my friends
and family have been impacted in such a way has been depressing and
sickening. It's amazing that they are so well adjusted, smiling, and nice
to ANYONE! It never occurred to me how simply walking outside, getting on
the bus, going to work, to the store...was a daily act of bravery. It's
just not something that 6'3" 210 pound middle aged balding dudes have to
think about. If I'm being honest, I'm not sure my skin is thick enough, or
if I'm brave enough, or have the social skills, or presence of mind to
handle being a woman. It would be silly to to think those experiences, or
lack of the same, wouldn't shape anyone's response to any and all
unsolicited touching, however innocently motivated and intended, whether
direct or indirect.

On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 1:25 PM, Dave Sanderling via OBRA <
obra@list.obra.org> wrote:

> I think we're ignoring the elephant in the room: Obviously, men and women
> have different experiences.
>
> Most guys (even if kind and innocent) have the privilege of blissful
> unawareness of the different world that women navigate. Maybe you saw the
> #metoo thing happen? I'm a dad of two young girls, and that really hit me.
> When I was in middle school, sexual predation was subtly encouraged... I'm
> not talking about rape, but, well, butt grabbing, staring.. stuff that
> seemed playful (as a young dude who didn't know any better). As a boy I
> never had to worry about being preyed upon. As a dad I'm on the other side
> of that coin.
>
> Yes, consent is still fundamental. But let's be smart about the world we
> live in too. It's not about whip vs. hand directly touching ass, or
> Halloween costume or not. (I honestly doubt that anyone will complain about
> feeling violated by the dominatrix--that's my read on our Portland CX
> culture.) Is it a double standard? Yes, but a warranted one, based in
> kindness, understanding, humility... and a slow but hopeful move toward
> some kind of equality.
>
> This doesn't address the question of OBRA rules, etc. It sounds like the
> event that ignited this kerfuffle was handled maturely off-list, so, would
> it be ok to just call that good?
>
> I hope I'm not misrepresenting anyone here.. I can't speak for women (and
> I didn't have my wife proofread this!).
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>


Dave Sanderling

November 14, 2017 at 1:25 PM

I think we're ignoring the elephant in the room: Obviously, men and women have different experiences.

Most guys (even if kind and innocent) have the privilege of blissful unawareness of the different world that women navigate. Maybe you saw the #metoo thing happen? I'm a dad of two young girls, and that really hit me. When I was in middle school, sexual predation was subtly encouraged... I'm not talking about rape, but, well, butt grabbing, staring.. stuff that seemed playful (as a young dude who didn't know any better). As a boy I never had to worry about being preyed upon. As a dad I'm on the other side of that coin.

Yes, consent is still fundamental. But let's be smart about the world we live in too. It's not about whip vs. hand directly touching ass, or Halloween costume or not. (I honestly doubt that anyone will complain about feeling violated by the dominatrix--that's my read on our Portland CX culture.) Is it a double standard? Yes, but a warranted one, based in kindness, understanding, humility... and a slow but hopeful move toward some kind of equality.

This doesn't address the question of OBRA rules, etc. It sounds like the event that ignited this kerfuffle was handled maturely off-list, so, would it be ok to just call that good?

I hope I'm not misrepresenting anyone here.. I can't speak for women (and I didn't have my wife proofread this!).


Mike Murray

November 14, 2017 at 12:03 PM

2 issues:

- OBRA rules may not specifically cite harassment, sexual or otherwise, but the would allow penalizing a member under the unsportsmanlike behavior rule. FWIW there is a Code of Conduct being drafted which will specifically address this and more.

- Non-members spectators could not be subject to OBRA rules. They could not be expected to know what they are and have not agreed to honor them. Excluding a non-member from a venue would need to be in accordance with trespass laws.

Mike Murray
Sent from a mobile device.

> On Nov 14, 2017, at 08:31, Eric Aldinger via OBRA wrote:
>
> It does bring up a good point. Our cross scene has a libertine vibe. That sends mixed messages about what is permissible. The fundamental difference is there was a racer complaint at the previous race. Noone has complained about Ms B and her skinsuit of naughtiness.
>
> And I am surprised OBRA lacks a rule that unwanted sexual harassment between spectator and racer will eject the spectator from the venue.
>
> On Nov 13, 2017 11:46 AM, "via OBRA" wrote:
> Disclaimer: this is intended as humor. I really don't care.
> Last week the list was blowing up because someone inappropriately slapped some else's butt. I agree that's not cool especially if the slapper and slapee are not acquainted.
> Now a dominatrix is captured on more than one video WHIPPING cyclists as they pass by.
> Was she warned? Sanctioned? Is this some kind of OBRA/Crusade double standard?
> Again, this is a troll. I don't care.
> _______________________________________________
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> obra@list.obra.org
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> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
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> obra@list.obra.org
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Rick Johnson

November 14, 2017 at 9:38 AM





To me it seems obvious the fundamental issue is one of consent. Both
cases have in common party A assuming that party B is "ok" with
being the object of contact or behavior that could actually be
unwanted, inappropriate or even perceived as harassing.





On 11/14/2017 9:19 AM, Tom Orth via
OBRA wrote:



I hate to feed trolls, and I didn't see either
incident. But there seem to be earnest people trying to figure
this out. I could be wrong about what happened in each case, but
here is what I understand:




Case one: direct hand to ass contact

Case two: Costumed person with indirect contact (whip)





It seems that the direct contact versus whip contact are
fundamentally different. If that is the case, then it's really
baffling that someone would see some comparable situation
here.��





On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 8:31 AM, Eric
Aldinger via OBRA <obra@list.obra.org>
wrote:



It does bring up a good point. Our cross scene has a
libertine vibe. That sends mixed messages about what is
permissible. The fundamental difference is there was a
racer complaint at the previous race. Noone has
complained about Ms B and her skinsuit of naughtiness.��




And I am surprised OBRA lacks a rule
that unwanted sexual harassment between spectator and
racer will eject the spectator from the venue.��




On Nov 13, 2017 11:46 AM,
"via OBRA" <obra@list.obra.org>
wrote:

Disclaimer: this is
intended as humor. I really don't care.

Last week the list was blowing up because someone
inappropriately slapped some else's butt. I agree
that's not cool especially if the slapper and
slapee are not acquainted.

Now a dominatrix is captured on more than one
video WHIPPING cyclists as they pass by.

Was she warned? Sanctioned? Is this some kind of
OBRA/Crusade double standard?

Again, this is a troll. I don't care.

_______________________________________________

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obra@list.obra.org

http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra

Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org










_______________________________________________

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obra@list.obra.org

http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra

Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org













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Tom Orth

November 14, 2017 at 9:19 AM

I hate to feed trolls, and I didn't see either incident. But there seem to
be earnest people trying to figure this out. I could be wrong about what
happened in each case, but here is what I understand:

Case one: direct hand to ass contact
Case two: Costumed person with indirect contact (whip)

It seems that the direct contact versus whip contact are fundamentally
different. If that is the case, then it's really baffling that someone
would see some comparable situation here.

On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 8:31 AM, Eric Aldinger via OBRA
wrote:

> It does bring up a good point. Our cross scene has a libertine vibe. That
> sends mixed messages about what is permissible. The fundamental difference
> is there was a racer complaint at the previous race. Noone has complained
> about Ms B and her skinsuit of naughtiness.
>
> And I am surprised OBRA lacks a rule that unwanted sexual harassment
> between spectator and racer will eject the spectator from the venue.
>
> On Nov 13, 2017 11:46 AM, "via OBRA" wrote:
>
> Disclaimer: this is intended as humor. I really don't care.
> Last week the list was blowing up because someone inappropriately slapped
> some else's butt. I agree that's not cool especially if the slapper and
> slapee are not acquainted.
> Now a dominatrix is captured on more than one video WHIPPING cyclists as
> they pass by.
> Was she warned? Sanctioned? Is this some kind of OBRA/Crusade double
> standard?
> Again, this is a troll. I don't care.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>


Eric Aldinger

November 14, 2017 at 8:31 AM

It does bring up a good point. Our cross scene has a libertine vibe. That
sends mixed messages about what is permissible. The fundamental difference
is there was a racer complaint at the previous race. Noone has complained
about Ms B and her skinsuit of naughtiness.

And I am surprised OBRA lacks a rule that unwanted sexual harassment
between spectator and racer will eject the spectator from the venue.

On Nov 13, 2017 11:46 AM, "via OBRA" wrote:

Disclaimer: this is intended as humor. I really don't care.
Last week the list was blowing up because someone inappropriately slapped
some else's butt. I agree that's not cool especially if the slapper and
slapee are not acquainted.
Now a dominatrix is captured on more than one video WHIPPING cyclists as
they pass by.
Was she warned? Sanctioned? Is this some kind of OBRA/Crusade double
standard?
Again, this is a troll. I don't care.
_______________________________________________
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obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
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Ron Strasser

November 13, 2017 at 4:57 PM

Wow. Unwanted touching is NOT RIGHT period. The whip woman stands out like
a neon sign. If she whips on someone who does not like that, he she can
easily find her and tell her or go tell an official who would easily find
her and have a conversation. This is the Halloween Crusade race. It is
family friendly, but not an ultra social conservative event!
If you want to talk about unwanted touching or being a predator........just
look at our president! Now that is real and he is getting away with it
PERIOD.
That is not a JOKE. Just chew on that.
ron s.
-----Original Message-----
From: Adams, Mike via OBRA
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2017 3:19 PM
To: 'via OBRA'
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Where's the outrage?

Word has it that he got punched by his dealer. He hadn't paid for his
amphetamines for months. He was a constant user and got kicked out of the
Giro for doping. (Trolling)

-----Original Message-----
From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of via OBRA
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2017 2:26 PM
To: Sara E Davidson
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Where's the outrage?

OBRA rules already prohibit touching between competitors but I don't think
there is a written rule about spectators touching racers except if a racer
takes a "push" from a spectator, that racer is subject to sanction at the
discretion of the race officials, no?
Someone mentioned that, at the start of Deschutes race 2, it was made known
that if you don't want to be touched, you should not be in that race. What
about the people that don't want to be touched (or whipped) who were already
at the start line after years of training, expense, preparation and
sacrifice for that one event not realizing it was going to be a "touching"
race? Are they supposed to excuse themselves from the race they have worked
their whole lives for seconds before the race is to begin? Promoters will
now have to specify in advance (against OBRA
rules) that their event is a "touching" or "not touching" event.
Remember when Eddy Merckx got sucker punched by a spectator and lost the
Tour De France? What ever happened to that guy? Eddy was never the same
after that.
But I'm wandering. Back to unwanted "touching", slapping someone's butt is
risky. I believe 98% of the time it is intended as playful but weather it is
playful or sexual assault is 100% in the mind of the recipient. If it's
playful, nobody cares. If it's sexual assault, there will be charges and
layers.
I didn't make this world, I just have to navigate it.
Again, if I get "touched" at an OBRA event, unless I'm physically injured,
I'm not going to make anything of it except perhaps to to the "toucher"
themselves. It will not be posted on the list.
I'm not talking about racers bumping into one another unintentionally.
That happens all the time and sometimes results in injury. Everybody that
signs up for a race knows that can happen. I'm talking about intentional
touching from a fellow racer or a spectator. Unless you know the recipient
of the touch pretty well, there is no way to know how they will interpret
it.
Again, I didn't bring this up. Just commenting.

On 2017-11-13 14:03, Sara E Davidson via OBRA wrote:
> In seriousness (although if you're trolling, cool?) no one has
> apparently ever felt like her butt slapping crossed a line, and that's
> the difference.
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Adams, Mike

November 13, 2017 at 3:19 PM

Word has it that he got punched by his dealer. He hadn't paid for his amphetamines for months. He was a constant user and got kicked out of the Giro for doping. (Trolling)

-----Original Message-----
From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of via OBRA
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2017 2:26 PM
To: Sara E Davidson
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Where's the outrage?

OBRA rules already prohibit touching between competitors but I don't think there is a written rule about spectators touching racers except if a racer takes a "push" from a spectator, that racer is subject to sanction at the discretion of the race officials, no?
Someone mentioned that, at the start of Deschutes race 2, it was made known that if you don't want to be touched, you should not be in that race. What about the people that don't want to be touched (or whipped) who were already at the start line after years of training, expense, preparation and sacrifice for that one event not realizing it was going to be a "touching" race? Are they supposed to excuse themselves from the race they have worked their whole lives for seconds before the race is to begin? Promoters will now have to specify in advance (against OBRA
rules) that their event is a "touching" or "not touching" event.
Remember when Eddy Merckx got sucker punched by a spectator and lost the Tour De France? What ever happened to that guy? Eddy was never the same after that.
But I'm wandering. Back to unwanted "touching", slapping someone's butt is risky. I believe 98% of the time it is intended as playful but weather it is playful or sexual assault is 100% in the mind of the recipient. If it's playful, nobody cares. If it's sexual assault, there will be charges and layers.
I didn't make this world, I just have to navigate it.
Again, if I get "touched" at an OBRA event, unless I'm physically injured, I'm not going to make anything of it except perhaps to to the "toucher" themselves. It will not be posted on the list.
I'm not talking about racers bumping into one another unintentionally.
That happens all the time and sometimes results in injury. Everybody that signs up for a race knows that can happen. I'm talking about intentional touching from a fellow racer or a spectator. Unless you know the recipient of the touch pretty well, there is no way to know how they will interpret it.
Again, I didn't bring this up. Just commenting.

On 2017-11-13 14:03, Sara E Davidson via OBRA wrote:
> In seriousness (although if you're trolling, cool?) no one has
> apparently ever felt like her butt slapping crossed a line, and that's
> the difference.
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d..@bicyclerepairman.us

November 13, 2017 at 2:25 PM

OBRA rules already prohibit touching between competitors but I don't
think there is a written rule about spectators touching racers except if
a racer takes a "push" from a spectator, that racer is subject to
sanction at the discretion of the race officials, no?
Someone mentioned that, at the start of Deschutes race 2, it was made
known that if you don't want to be touched, you should not be in that
race. What about the people that don't want to be touched (or whipped)
who were already at the start line after years of training, expense,
preparation and sacrifice for that one event not realizing it was going
to be a "touching" race? Are they supposed to excuse themselves from the
race they have worked their whole lives for seconds before the race is
to begin? Promoters will now have to specify in advance (against OBRA
rules) that their event is a "touching" or "not touching" event.
Remember when Eddy Merckx got sucker punched by a spectator and lost the
Tour De France? What ever happened to that guy? Eddy was never the same
after that.
But I'm wandering. Back to unwanted "touching", slapping someone's butt
is risky. I believe 98% of the time it is intended as playful but
weather it is playful or sexual assault is 100% in the mind of the
recipient. If it's playful, nobody cares. If it's sexual assault, there
will be charges and layers.
I didn't make this world, I just have to navigate it.
Again, if I get "touched" at an OBRA event, unless I'm physically
injured, I'm not going to make anything of it except perhaps to to the
"toucher" themselves. It will not be posted on the list.
I'm not talking about racers bumping into one another unintentionally.
That happens all the time and sometimes results in injury. Everybody
that signs up for a race knows that can happen. I'm talking about
intentional touching from a fellow racer or a spectator. Unless you know
the recipient of the touch pretty well, there is no way to know how they
will interpret it.
Again, I didn't bring this up. Just commenting.

On 2017-11-13 14:03, Sara E Davidson via OBRA wrote:
> In seriousness (although if you're trolling, cool?) no one has
> apparently ever felt like her butt slapping crossed a line, and that's
> the difference.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Spencer Dandy

November 13, 2017 at 1:50 PM

I'm confused, if you don't care then why did you post this?

-Spencer Dandy


Sara E Davidson

November 13, 2017 at 1:03 PM

In seriousness (although if you're trolling, cool?) no one has apparently ever felt like her butt slapping crossed a line, and that's the difference.


Rick Johnson

November 13, 2017 at 12:46 PM

Well der, a dominatrix is a symbol of female empowerment. Therefore not
only an absolute in political correctness but something to be celebrated!

[said with tongue firmly in cheek]

On 11/13/2017 11:40 AM, via OBRA wrote:
> Disclaimer: this is intended as humor. I really don't care.
> Last week the list was blowing up because someone inappropriately
> slapped some else's butt. I agree that's not cool especially if the
> slapper and slapee are not acquainted.
> Now a dominatrix is captured on more than one video WHIPPING cyclists
> as they pass by.
> Was she warned? Sanctioned? Is this some kind of OBRA/Crusade double
> standard?
> Again, this is a troll. I don't care.
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> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
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> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


d..@bicyclerepairman.us

November 13, 2017 at 11:40 AM

Disclaimer: this is intended as humor. I really don't care.
Last week the list was blowing up because someone inappropriately
slapped some else's butt. I agree that's not cool especially if the
slapper and slapee are not acquainted.
Now a dominatrix is captured on more than one video WHIPPING cyclists as
they pass by.
Was she warned? Sanctioned? Is this some kind of OBRA/Crusade double
standard?
Again, this is a troll. I don't care.