Racing fee's

Ken Lindhorst

2001-05-07

Yes, its me again. The one that wrote a few weeks ago asking why racing fees have to be so high (Along with late fees) While I still think there is a way around the late fee thing, this e-mail is to commend the promoters on this last weekends Spring Thaw in Ashland. The race was very organized. The course was great (A leg burner of a climb) And while I suffered through TWO flats I really had a great time. We even had a bite of food waiting for us at the finish line. Thanks for a great race. And thanks again to Sobe and Cliff Bar for there help.



Ken



OUTLA-@aol.com

2001-05-02



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I work for Continental Airlines as a Mechanic. I am not quite sure, but if

you were to buy your tickets the morning of the flight I can assure you that

the cost would be a bit more the the $10 bucks youre complaining about as

opposed to buying in advance.



Joe



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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>I work for Continental Airlines as a Mechanic.  I am not quite sure, but if

<BR>you were to buy your tickets the morning of the flight I can assure you that

<BR>the cost would be a bit more the the $10 bucks youre complaining about as

<BR>opposed to buying in advance.

<BR>

<BR>Joe  </FONT></HTML>



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Dock, Dion

2001-05-02

I would suggest the following:



a) pre-register. Maybe something will come up and you'll miss the race.

Maybe you'll be able to do the race because you told everyone you were going

to two weeks in advance and they have to plan around you.

b) Don't pre-register. Perhaps it is worth an extra $10 to have a bit more

flexibility. If you don't show for three races, it will pay for itself.

c) Let the promoters know how you feel. As a promoter, it's easy to jump to

lots of conclusions for why people show and why they don't. My wife and I

skipped a mountain bike race a year or two ago that had a $50 entry fee and

we specifically told the promoter that it was too high. If people just

don't show, they could blame the weather, advertising, the course, etc.



I don't think you'll find too many promoters getting rich, but that

certainly doesn't mean participants aren't getting poorer.



-Dion



-----Original Message-----

From: Ken Lindhorst [mailto:mtbd-@aol.com]

Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 11:17 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Racing fee's





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Hello all

I am a mt biker who raced the last two events in Bend and Bear springs. Let

me first say that both races were put together very well and a blast to

ride. The promoter (I forget his name) was very nice to deal with and just

did an overall great job. My only question is why is it so expensive to

race? I dropeed $45 in Bend, this did include my OBRA license and I dropped

$40 at Bear springs. I understand that there is a $10 late fee which seems

quite high to me. Its very difficult to plan to hit a race a few weeks in

advance, especially if one has a family. I don't know what I'm doing from

day to day let alone a week from now. If there can be some way to register

online would be great to stay away from late fees (maybe there is a system

and I just don't know about it) I would hate to spend $25 to race only to

find out something has come up and I have spent $25 for nothing.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining. I'm just trying to better

understand why the costs are so high. Maybe there is a system out there that

I'm not aware of that one can register just a few days or a day in advance.

Anyway, thanks for a great race series and a big thank you to Sobe and Cliff

bars for the items they supply. Can anyone supply me with contact info so I

can thank them myself? Now get out there and ride!!



Ken



Jeffrey Struck

2001-05-01

<html><DIV>

<P>Thank you to both Ken and Jon for astute questions/observations.</P>

<P>However, as a bonafide member of Team S&M, I must acknowledge a fact that Jon "The Mayor" Myers neglected to mention.  The Team S&M-promoted race that saw the largest turnout was also the event that featured the much-advertized public beard-shearing of one Erik Tonkin-surely an event not to be missed.  I share Mr. Myers enthusiasm regarding other teams putting on events, but I also recommend that they attract racers by putting on similar spectacles.  Might I suggest a collective leg "shave-in"?</P>

<P>Thank you,</P>

<P>Jeffrey Struck <BR></P></DIV><br clear=all><hr>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at <a href="http://explorer.msn.com">http://explorer.msn.com</a><br></p></html>



Jon Myers

2001-05-01

   As a MTB racer and promoter I agree with Ken entirely, but I have

found that price seems to have no bearing on attendance at the race.

Team S&M has experimented with race entry fees to try to get more people

to our races. Last year at the Race at Reehers we dropped the price to

$20 for pre-reg (up to the day before the race) and $25 for day of race

fee. We had 140 racers. The year before we charged $25 pre-reg and $35

day of event. We had 200 racers. That same year we did a race that we

only charged $15 dollars per racer (no late fee). We had 58 racers.

So, as near as I can tell, the more we charge, the more people will show

up.

   There are a variety of reasons for a late fee. Some events serve

food or give out momentos to the racers that depend on the number of

racers. If the promoter does not know how many people are going, they

have to order an unknown extra amount of stuff and that costs extra.

Hiring more people to handle the rush of on site registration costs

extra money or delays the start of the event.

   Each race has different costs. I believe that any time you are on

BLM or US Forest Service property, the promoter has to pay up to $5 per

racer in fees to BLM or USFS. Supplies and prizes and insurance all add

up.

   I only know what our club's exact costs and income are and I know

that we have made a profit on 2 of our 3 events. It is no fun to do a

lot of work and end up paying money out of our pocket. Even the events

where we were better than break even, we had to count on a huge number

of volunteer hours from club members.

   OBRA makes it very aproachable to do a race and I would encourage

every mountain bike racing team to put on an event. The racers are very

supportive and it can be rewarding to do.

   Thanks to Ken for the questions and feedback. It is always good to

find out what people are conserned about so that the promoters can try

to address the conserns and improve events.

   -Jon Myers



Ken Lindhorst wrote:

 Hello all

I am a mt biker who raced the last two events in Bend and Bear springs.

Let me first say that both races were put together very well and a blast

to ride. The promoter (I forget his name) was very nice to deal with and

just did an overall great job. My only question is why is it so

expensive to race? I dropeed $45 in Bend, this did include my OBRA

license and I dropped $40 at Bear springs. I understand that there is a

$10 late fee which seems quite high to me. Its very difficult to plan to

hit a race a few weeks in advance, especially if one has a family. I

don't know what I'm doing from day to day let alone a week from now. If

there can be some way to register online would be great to stay away

from late fees (maybe there is a system and I just don't know about it)

I would hate to spend $25 to race only to find out something has come up

and I have spent $25 for nothing.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining. I'm just trying to

better understand why the costs are so high. Maybe there is a system out

there that I'm not aware of that one can register just a few days or a

day in advance. Anyway, thanks for a great race series and a big thank

you to Sobe and Cliff bars for the items they supply. Can anyone supply

me with contact info so I can thank them myself? Now get out there and

ride!!



Ken



FISCHER,JAMES (HP-Corvallis,ex1)

2001-05-01

Ken,



Several years ago, the fee structure was perceived to be rather confusing

with some races charging more than others. For example, the bigger better

organized races often charged less than the smaller more out-of-the-way

events. Some races were more expensive due to a stiff $5/rider BLM fee.

Other events provided free t-shirts or food (or both) for the same price

other promoters charged to simply enter the event. In an effort to better

package the events, a decision was made to standardize on an entry fee

everyone could agree upon. Some bigger events which drew lots of people

didn't need the cash, so much was given back in the form of prizes and

services at the event. Smaller events need to charge more to break even

when faced with a minimum purse of $1000-$1500 cash payout, land use fees,

number plates and other stuff.



The late fee was increased to $10 when the bigger events were getting

400-500 people with over 1/3 of them registering on race day. An attempt

was made at a broad-based timing system using computers. Since data entry

was a major headache, we needed people to register early so we could get

them into the computers. The computer timing is not as simple as it sounds,

and I applaud the Doug Clevingers and the Dana Bandys of Oregon who have

made their systems work. Anyway, the higher late fee was used to pursuade

people to register early enough for us to get them into the system in a

timely fashion instead of doing it wildly on race day.



Things have changed over the past few years making race promoting more

economical (mainly due to OBRA's influence) like common number plates,

cheaper access to equipment, lower insurance surcharges etc. ATB Racer

participation has declined by 50% or so from three years ago and this makes

manual timing much easier. With advances in timing organization, manual

timing is very simple and there is little need for finish line timing

equipment. Final results in electronic format are still required, but this

can be done at home over a beer rather than at the finish line with people

standing over your shoulder. No quick data entry is required.



Many of the current promoters need to charge the higher fees to break even

given their costs and the reduced numbers at the events. I don't see the

costs going down unless there is an organized message sent by the racers

that they will no longer tolerate the fees. As Mike Murray has so

eloquently put it, "Vote with your wallet, and the promoters will listen."



I am not defending or attacking any of the promoters for charging what they

do. As a former promoter, I know what it takes to make the races worth

doing and I also know what services I like to provide and the associated

costs.



I hope this helps clear things up a bit.



Regards, Jim Fischer

Former OBRA ATB Rep and Mudslinger Promoter



-----Original Message-----

From: Ken Lindhorst [mailto:mtbd-@aol.com]

Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 11:17 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Racing fee's





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Hello all

I am a mt biker who raced the last two events in Bend and Bear springs. Let

me first say that both races were put together very well and a blast to

ride. The promoter (I forget his name) was very nice to deal with and just

did an overall great job. My only question is why is it so expensive to

race? I dropeed $45 in Bend, this did include my OBRA license and I dropped

$40 at Bear springs. I understand that there is a $10 late fee which seems

quite high to me. Its very difficult to plan to hit a race a few weeks in

advance, especially if one has a family. I don't know what I'm doing from

day to day let alone a week from now. If there can be some way to register

online would be great to stay away from late fees (maybe there is a system

and I just don't know about it) I would hate to spend $25 to race only to

find out something has come up and I have spent $25 for nothing.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining. I'm just trying to better

understand why the costs are so high. Maybe there is a system out there that

I'm not aware of that one can register just a few days or a day in advance.

Anyway, thanks for a great race series and a big thank you to Sobe and Cliff

bars for the items they supply. Can anyone supply me with contact info so I

can thank them myself? Now get out there and ride!!



Ken



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Ken Lindhorst

2001-05-01

Hello all

I am a mt biker who raced the last two events in Bend and Bear springs. Let me first say that both races were put together very well and a blast to ride. The promoter (I forget his name) was very nice to deal with and just did an overall great job. My only question is why is it so expensive to race? I dropeed $45 in Bend, this did include my OBRA license and I dropped $40 at Bear springs. I understand that there is a $10 late fee which seems quite high to me. Its very difficult to plan to hit a race a few weeks in advance, especially if one has a family. I don't know what I'm doing from day to day let alone a week from now. If there can be some way to register online would be great to stay away from late fees (maybe there is a system and I just don't know about it) I would hate to spend $25 to race only to find out something has come up and I have spent $25 for nothing.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining. I'm just trying to better understand why the costs are so high. Maybe there is a system out there that I'm not aware of that one can register just a few days or a day in advance. Anyway, thanks for a great race series and a big thank you to Sobe and Cliff bars for the items they supply. Can anyone supply me with contact info so I can thank them myself? Now get out there and ride!!



Ken