Dan H
"I needed a tire lever to pry my ass off the seat"
Doug,
I have some chamois cream that can help that.
Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Hormann"
To: "Luciano bailey"
Cc:
Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 7:02 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] bike stings, stop signs
> Luciano,
>
> My experience has been that drivers in the city are as likely to do stupid
> things as those in the "sub-urban" areas. I'm completely comfortable
> riding
> in Beaverton or Hillsboro, and just as comfortable riding in Portland
> whether it be NE, SE or Westside. I've found that drivers are an random
> mix
> of courteous, clueless, or dangerous, no matter where I'm riding. I've had
> people try to run me off the road in Banks as well as a block from
> Cyclepath
> on MLK, so I don't see the need for differing laws based on geography that
> would only only confuse riders and drivers alike. My scariest incident was
> riding down burnside toward downtown from Sylvan with a Tri-Met bus about
> 20
> feet behind me the whole way. My cheeks were so puckered by the time I hit
> the light at 23rd that I needed a tire lever to pry my ass off the seat.
>
> Regarding laws, there is no law that requires one car length for every ten
> miles per hour. Rather, we in law enforcement encourage people to use a
> two
> second gap (still no law) that says you will keep two seconds between you
> and the vehicle in front of you. This actually translates to much more
> than
> 80 feet at 40 MPH. Wishful thinking, I know, but that's what we encourage,
> and typically when citing a driver for following to close we will use that
> standard as evidence of the violation. As far as the white line at stop
> signs go, the law actually says you must stop at the white line, at the
> stop
> sign or before entering cross traffic. This gives a little leeway to the
> driver or rider as sometimes the white line is painted so far back as to
> make it impossible to see cross traffic.
>
> Having said all that, I still advocate a rolling stop rule (slow down,
> look
> both ways then procede if clear) at stop signs for bikes. Requiring a bike
> to come to a complete stop fails the common sense rule, but cyclists who
> simply roll through every stop sign they come to should be thankful that
> the
> only thing they get is a ticket.
>
> Doug
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]On
> Behalf Of Luciano bailey
> Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 3:28 AM
> To: gschreckchat@comcast.net; sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com;
> JRaedeke@roguecc.edu; jim2003@voicedoctor.net
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] bike stings, stop signs
>
>
> I did a photo expose on cars failing to stop and the most common stop with
> half the car across the white line which by law is where the front of the
> car should not cross. All of this becomes a moot point when statistically
> damage and injury caused by motorists far outways the cyclist risk of
> injury
> outside the cyclist himself. What needs to be inacted is hub laws
> pertainiing to cyclists and auto's in an urban environment which differs
> greatly from sub-urban areas in cyclist density and common sense rules of
> the road. Case in point one would stand great risk riding in a lane of
> traffic in Beaverton as opposed to Hawthorne Blvd. where the lane is the
> only logical choice. The problem is some outside the hub sub-urban driver
> is
> not used to this and will create idiot risk by tail gating a bike down the
> hill doing forty just as they would with a car. The prevailiong attitude
> of
> the motorist is something ridiculous like he should'nt be on the road if
> he
> is not willing to risk getting run over. This would be true if the law
> did'nt require one car length for every ten miles per hour which
> translates
> into about eighty feet at forty, yet time and time again I have had cars
> as
> close as ten behind me while I have descended down Hawthorne. As bike
> rights
> laws etc creep into the twenty first century we need to be very careful
> that
> we keep our minds and tax planning dollars on the future and exactly what
> that means. To continue to try to reinvent car dominated communities is a
> waste of time money and most of all the valuble climate and natural
> resources of this beautiful city and state. All those wishing to see
> future
> gridlock and LA type air quality stand by without drastic and commited
> effort on the part of the community at large that is the slippery slope on
> which we now slide. A little off topic but what we are really talking
> about
> is the big picture.
>
>
>>From: gschreckchat@comcast.net
>>To: "Jeff Tedder & Shari" , "Raedeke,John"
>>, "James Thomas"
>>CC: obra@list.obra.org
>>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] bike stings, stop signs
>>Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 20:32:04 +0000
>>
>>All fine assuming the cyclist in his or her haste does not miss seeing the
>>car or mistakenly think he or she can get through the intersection before
>>the car. How hard is it to do a short track stand and look both ways.
>>
>>It is a lot easier and generally fairer to enforce a rule consistently
>>with
>>a bright line than to have varying enforecement and differing standards.
>>I
>>would worry more about being discriminated against than being treated the
>>same.
>>
>>--
>>
>>George Schreck
>>gschreckchat@comcast.net
>>(503) 502-0425
>>
>>-------------- Original message --------------
>>From: "Jeff Tedder & Shari"
>>
>> > Well I guess everyone is assuming that all cyclist go flying through
>>stops
>> > signs without slowing down, this all got started about people getting
>> > tickets for not coming to complete stops, feet down.....If you go
>> > flying
>> > through a stop sign then yes you do deserve a ticket, but if you come
>> > up
>>on
>> > a stop sign, no cars in sight and don't come to a complete stop do you
>> > deserve a 242.00 ticket? This is happening and has happened to people I
>> > know....Doesn't our thin police force have better things to do, gang
>> > shootings, rapes, murder, drug dealers selling to our kids,etc etc
>> > etc....There's bigger fish to fry than some commuter riding into work
>> > at
>> > 7:30 am, doing good things for traffic problems by leaving his or her
>>car at
>> > home, getting some exercise and then getting slammed with a 242.00
>>ticket.
>> > ...How many cases of people running stop signs or lights on there bikes
>>and
>> > getting hit has there been lately? It's always cars hitting people from
>> > behind or running them off the road etc........Let's worry about that
>>before
>> > this other issue....Just my thoughts....I am sure I will get a ear
>> > full,
>>so
>> > go ahead and get started.....Have a great day.....enjoy the
>>sunshine.....
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ----
>> > From: "Raedeke, John"
>> > To: "James Thomas"
>> > Cc:
>> > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 10:34 AM
>> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] bike stings, stop signs
>> >
>> >
>> > >
>> > > While this may sound like a great solution you may want to think
>> > > about
>> > > what psychological impact this has on the people that may hit you on
>> > > your bike while running a stop sign. Let's say you die or are
>>crippled,
>> > > how does a $8.25 ticket justify this. I have a friend that hit a
>> > > child
>> > > that ran out in front of his car (by you calculations 45 pounds x .05
>>=
>> > > $2.25), he was well under the speed limit, yet there was nothing he
>> > > could do to stop in time. The child died and the driver was so
>> > > distraught that he could barely ride in a car, and couldn't drive for
>> > > several years afterwards. We need to think about these situations, it
>> > > doesn't just impact you it impacts many people. Maybe a person
>> > > swerves
>> > > to miss you and runs over someone else or into another car. Should
>> > > you
>> > > only be cited for a $8.25 fine for that??? We share these roads with
>> > > the cars, pedestrians, cyclists and others we just all need to be
>> > > responsible and cautious.
>> > >
>> > > John
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > James Thomas wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> This is a belated response to the bike sting thread from May 3rd. I
>> > >> also tried to respond to the Jonathan Maus's May 11th blog http://
>> > >> bikeportland.org/2007/05/11/one-year-later-at-the-salmon-street-stop-
>> > >> sign/, but the blog never accepts my responses on any topic (so
>> > >> Jonathan, drop me an email).
>> > >>
>> > >> The root of the problem lies in the laws for traffic violations,
>>which
>> > >
>> > >> should be changed. I would like to see cyclists take a legislative
>> > >> approach.
>> > >>
>> > >> Fundamentally, we should accept the responsibility for the mass of
>>the
>> > >
>> > >> vehicle we are controlling. I believe not only cyclists would
>> > >> support
>> > >> it, but so would pedestrians and owners of smaller vehicles.
>> > >> I am an owner and operator of various vehicles at various times,
>> > >> including bicycles, a Mini Cooper and a full size van. When I make a
>> > >> mistake in the van, I am taking on much more responsibility for
>> > >> causing injury and damage. The penalty for an infraction should
>> > >> represent that liability. A rather simple legislative solution would
>> > >> be a rating multiplied by the mass of the vehicle.
>> > >>
>> > >> For example, let's start with running a stop sign. At present our
>> > >> society has assigned a value of $242 to that infraction. For
>> > >> simplicity, let us assume that the ideal car weighs 4840 pounds,
>> > >> then
>> > >> the value 0.05 could be assigned to the infraction (eg. run the stop
>> > >> sign, get a ticket for 0.05 x the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating of
>> > >> 4840
>> > >> lbs, leads to a fine of $242). Now if I ran the stop sign in my van
>> > >> and was ticketed, the 6600 lbs GVWR leads to a fine of $330 while in
>> > >> my Mini at 3600 lbs it would lead to a fine of $180 and on my bike,
>> > >> my gross vehicle weight might be 165 lbs leading to a fine of $8.25.
>> > >> I think the risks of damage and my danger to my fellow members of
>> > >> society are quite well reflected in this. After all, the laws of
>> > >> physics apply very well to mass (as well as velocity). We could
>>choose
>> > >
>> > >> net weight or gross weight or some other definition of weight, the
>> > >> important thing is that the mass of the vehicle comes closest to
>> > >> approximating responsibility.
>> > >>
>> > >> So, perhaps I should fire this email off to the BTA and my
>> > >> legislators, but in the meantime I've cluttered your race email. Any
>> > >> thoughts?
>> > >>
>> > >> James Thomas
>> > >> _______________________________________________
>> > >> OBRA mailing list
>> > >> obra@list.obra.org
>> > >> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> > >> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> > >
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