Erik
Yes, Very Good Brian. You can tell the difference between Flat and
Hilly. Super. You can't see me, but my head is cocked sideways as I
nod in enlightened approval. But that really wasn't my point. The
point was to establish some kind of standard for how long races should
be, rather that allowing the annual death march that so many of our
region's events seem to be. Guidelines would benefit us all.
No ribbons or consolation prizes in bike racing, huh? Last time I
looked, there were approximately 30 divisions at the average OBRA XC
event with prizes going to the top 3 in each. So that's 90 prizes
going out to what, like 200 racers? Have you sat through awards after
an XC race lately? I can feel my age group shift in the time it takes
to get through the raffle.
And, by the way, the average World Cup race is over in about 2 hours.
It's not the distance or even really the terrain that pushes Elite
riders, it's the other riders. Erik Tonkin is hard to chase on any
course, at any distance. There's no point in making everyone do that
for 4 hours, when the finish order is set after 2.
Shall we look at how long XC races are in other states?
Napa Valley Dirt Classic, CA: 22mi. Winner - Barry Wicks 1:23:44 --
one course, beginnner to pro, most finished in less than 2:30, the only
riders who took over 4 hours were in their 60's.
Bloomer Park XC, Mi: 30mi. fast time - 2:11:44 -- Slow time - 2:29:42
Sonoma Lake, CA: New race. Distances: 10, 15, and 20 miles
Bavarian bike&brew fest, WA: Distances: 8.5, 17, and 26 miles
Then there's Oregon. I think the winning time for Chainbreaker was
Ryan Trebon at just under 2:30. Yeah, WINNING the 40-mile Chainbreaker
took him longer than a bad day in a National Series race, so what do
you think that course was like for the rest of us?
Promoters, why do you think the Pros and Experts of Oregon need to be
subjected to longer, harder races than World Class Mountainbikers? I'd
really like to know why you think Clunk McRidefast from Nowhere, Oregon
should have the crap kicked out of him by a heinous course EVERY
WEEKEND.
From: rondot@spiritone.com
To: listbd@comcast.net; elongride@hotmail.com; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Falls City Firecracker: great event,but where are the women???
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 22:03:18 -0700
Very good Brian. MTB racing is NOT at all
like running with the exception that they both are outlets for
competition. It is also very important that the competitions are not
watered down to the easiest course. This would not be following the spirit
of sport as it would not push the elite level racers. Shorter distances or
abridged courses for lower divisions makes sense, but it does not have to move
the level of kindergarten where everyone gets a ribbon. Most runners and
bike racers do not need a ribbon to feel like a winner. The different
categories/distances allow a racer to choose his pain, be it running or
riding.
ron
----- Original Message -----
From:
Brian L
To: 'Erik' ; 'obra'
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:15 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Falls City
Firecracker: great event,but where are the women???
Though sometimes
grueling, one of the reasons I race in the Expert class is for the longer
distances even though Im not as competitive there. For me, its more bang
for the buck, and Im less willing to drive the distance for a shorter
race.
Regarding making
races the same distance, terrain can vary so much that a better gauge is how
long it takes to complete the race a 20 mile race in Bend is nothing like a 20
mile race at Falls City. To compare MTB race
times from week to week you would have to do the same course all the time
and of course the weather would have to be the same. (I guess maybe running
races dont vary much on the terrain so they can be compared
easier.)
I agree with the
earlier comment that a shorter distance does not a Beginner race make. I can
very much understand a Beginner racer turning away from MTB racing after
walking their bike half the time. I very much enjoy the technical races, but I
also suggest alternate routes for Beginners when possible. (That might also
encourage the Beginners who can ride the technical sections to
upgrade.)
Just my
perspective,
Brian
List
-----Original
Message-----
From:
obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Erik
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 8:27
PM
To: John Hinke;
obra
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat]
Falls City Firecracker: great event, but where are the
women???
I seem
to recall this conversation here on the list not too long ago. Something
about the absurdity of the average X-C course length here in Oregon and the
effect it might be having on participation in summer events, racers
being burned out on Epic courses before things even warm up, etc.
The
word "Epic" of course is used because it's a lot easier to say than "course
that's guaranteed to damage you, your bike, and your motivation - if you can
finish".
Any psychologist will tell you that there are three
main criteria that shape human behavior: fear, pain, and ambition. Right
now Oregon mountainbiking is mainly using pain. The miserable experience
that is the typical X-C race in this state is very likely to drive away all
but the most ambitious riders. Hard terrain is one thing, but we give
people a painful experience and there is little to feed their
ambition.
Maybe mountainbiking needs to finally take some cues from the
running community. Do you know what's really nice about 10k runs?
Marathons? Half-Marathons? THEY'RE ALWAYS THE SAME DISTANCE.
Runners impress me. It's a very different attitude. You'll
never hear a runner complain that they just paid $20-30 to run a measly 10
kilometers. They show up to compete at a set distance for what it
is. Here's the important part: this allows all participants to compare
this week's 10k time to last week's 10k time. This is infinitely smart
compared to Mountainbike promotion. People keep showing up when they
can see measurable improvement because they feel good about doing better than
before. And yes, if you have your thinking caps on, this is the essence
of ambition.
This concept of fixed distances extends to every endurance
sport that comes to mind: Running, Triathlon, XC skiing, swimming
. . . Why should Mountainbiking be any different?
Would it really be a problem to have race distances set at 20, 30, and a
"Marathon" distance of 50 miles? Or 20k, 40k, and 100k, whatever works.
Does anybody else wonder if consistency might be a better route than simply
driving away everyone who's not up to a 4-5 hour suffer
fest?
From:
hinke@ashlandhome.net
To: obra@list.obra.org
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008
15:23:27 -0700
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Falls City Firecracker: great
event, but where are the women???
I agree that racing
is hard. But it's also supposed to be fun, right? I mean, not too
many of us make our living racing. Most of us just enjoy hanging out
with like-minded people doing something fun.
I'm starting to get
prepared for the Jedi state championship XC race coming up and was looking at
last years results to try to gauge how much time it'll take me. Most of
the men in my category took between 3-4.5 hours to do the Jedi race last
year. Ouch! I'd better train some
more.
I also noticed there
were only 5 women who did the race. Their times for the pro/expert women
were off the charts and very unreasonable for just about any "normal" mountain
bike race. The pro woman took 4h14m to complete the course, while the
expert woman took just under 5 hours! That's right: 5 hours.
(Better start training more, eh?) How many people want to race that long
or can race that long (ignoring all of the 12 hour and 24 hour racers out
there)? That's a long time to race. I'm not sure I'd come back to
a race if it was that long. I also understand that it's a tough decision
for the promoters. If they make the course too short or easy, people
will complain. If they make it too long people will complain.
Finding that sweet spot is a challenge.
Anyway, I love the
Jedi.
John
-----Original
Message-----
From:
obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]On Behalf Of Melissa Boyd
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 2:59
PM
To: sue
butler
Cc: obra
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Falls City
Firecracker: great event,but where are the women???
It does seem like women are
avoiding mountain bike races, and some of the responses I heard said that it
is "too hard".
Races are supposed to be hard!
But, some promoters seem to take great glee in making them as hard
as possible. That may be discouraging some of the women who are just getting
started. For instance, if half the riders in a category find a long
section of singletrack climb (or descent) unrideable and have to push
their bikes, is that "too hard" for that category? What if it's 80%, or 100%
that have to walk? Is that getting excessive? If the beginner women find
they are spending more time pushing their bikes than riding them, it may be
hard to get them to come back and try again. And yet, that may be just the
Best Course Ever for the Expert riders and the strong
guys.
Most races have beginner's
distances that are shorter than the Sport and Expert races. Although it
would be harder for the organizers, they might get more novices to give
it a try if the beginner's course was technically easier and not just
shorter.
Melissa
On
6/2/08, sue butler
wrote:
I agree that this was a great
race and a lot of fun. When do you get to race on almost ALL
singletrack?
I also agree that it was extremely disappointing to have
only 4 women line up for the afternoon session of racing. I know the
Silverton road race took a few 'regulars' out of the pack, but I continue to
wonder why other women don't like to race their mtb's? It is great fun,
great people and a great workout! Stay tuned for upcoming mtb clinics that
will be at the short track races, which start later this month. Maybe this
will help get more women out there racing their mountain bikes. I think all
the men that were there need to work on one woman each to get them there.
Because I know when you have no one to race, sometimes then you don't go and
the cycle continues... I was just glad to be home and able to
race a new
venue!!!
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