OBRA: Officials: Number placement

T. Kenji Sugahara

2016-09-28

Google Doc is a good idea.

Mike- want to set one up?

On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 1:03 PM, Hazel via OBRA_Officials
wrote:
> Maybe a Google Doc would be helpful to keep track of riders throughout
> different races?
>
> On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Dan Grabski via OBRA_Officials
> wrote:
>>
>> So, my plan for tonight is to watch for number issues and start
>> recommending warnings for the repeat offenders. I��m going to ask our scorers
>> and camera folks to make sure to indicate when there are issues (I��ve had
>> the scorers put a star beside the number on the scoring sheets). What I��m
>> considering as ��issues��:
>>
>>
>>
>> Number sideways/upside down/wrong side
>>
>> Number too high: number unreadable on the camera without additional
>> information (like, knowing that the dude with the green and white jersey
>> whose number starts with 16 is actually 168)
>>
>>
>>
>> I��m going to start a list of the number of weeks with a problem for
>> different riders, and I will share that list once I have it compiled so we
>> can track offenses across other races.
>>
>>
>>
>> I��m giving cat 5 racers a pass because a lot of them have never pinned a
>> number in their life.
>>
>>
>>
>> If we can��t read a number at the line though, we can��t score them. I��m
>> gonna have some pissed off cat 1 / cat 2/3 / masters guys at me, but, they
>> gotta figure this out.
>>
>>
>>
>> Dan
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 12:29 PM, Mike Murray via OBRA_Officials
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Here are a couple items from the rulebook:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 11.5 Accrual of warnings
>>>
>>> Riders who accrue 3 misconduct warnings from a Chief Referee
>>>
>>> within one calendar year may be suspended for a period of 30
>>>
>>> days with the approval of the Board of Directors. If, after the
>>>
>>> suspension, the rider accrues another warning within the same
>>>
>>> calendar year, the Board of Directors may deem the rider ineligible
>>>
>>> to ride for the rest of the calendar year. Calendar year shall be
>>>
>>> defined as the season running from January 1st of the year to
>>>
>>> December 31st of the same year.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 8.4 Unreadable numbers
>>>
>>> Unreadable numbers may not be placed.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Now I guess the question would be if a warning for bad number placement
>>> is considered a ��misconduct�� warning. I would argue yes. Unfortunately we do
>>> not have a tracking method that will notify us when a rider gets 3 warnings.
>>> My guess is that, with the exception of warnings for personality disorder
>>> related behaviors, no one notices until the issue is pretty egregious. If
>>> you note someone that is a recurrent bad number pinner and they have been
>>> warned 3 times you should probably submit that to Kenji to act on.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Mike Murray
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: OBRA_Officials [mailto:obra_officials-bounces@list.obra.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Mike Hilbrandt via OBRA_Officials
>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 11:28
>>> To: Dan Grabski
>>> Cc: OBRA Officials
>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Officials] Number placement
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We already do give warnings.
>>>
>>> The question is: Who cares about a warning? It doesn't change the
>>> results, only delays them, and it is only a 30 second inconvenience of
>>> having some OBRA official tell you your number placement is bad.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sep 27, 2016 10:55 AM, "Dan Grabski via OBRA_Officials"
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hey everyone -
>>>
>>> So as you've probably noticed, we've been having lots of problems with
>>> number placement this cross season. It took me a couple days to sort through
>>> the latest set of Trophy Cup results because they were so bad, and I know I
>>> missed some.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What else can we do to motivate people to pin their numbers correctly?
>>> We've got people checking numbers before races, but we can't get everything.
>>> I've been putting notes in the results but people don't want to put in the
>>> effort to fix their numbers.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Can we start issuing warnings for people who aren't getting the hint and
>>> are doing this more than once? Do we have other ways of dealing with this? I
>>> give a lot of leeway to the cat 5 guy who's rolled up to the start line for
>>> the first time ever, but when you've got a masters 2/3 guy who's doing stuff
>>> like putting his number sideways, there's no excuse for that. And waiting a
>>> couple days for results is no motivation for them, all it does is get me
>>> emails from people wondering when results will be done.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dan
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA_Officials mailing list
>>> OBRA_Officials@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_officials
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA_Officials mailing list
>>> OBRA_Officials@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_officials
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA_Officials mailing list
>> OBRA_Officials@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_officials
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Officials mailing list
> OBRA_Officials@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_officials
>

--
Kenji Sugahara
Executive Director
Oregon Bicycle Racing Association
Phone: 503-278-5550
http://www.obra.org

Melanie Rathe

2016-09-27

Dan: Probably a good idea to send a 'friendly' reminder to the list serve of the problem with number placements and tonight is the night you are implementing these guidelines...
Mel

----- Original Message -----

From: "Dan Grabski via OBRA_Officials"
To: "Mike Murray"
Cc: "Official's listserv"
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 12:44:57 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Officials] Number placement

So, my plan for tonight is to watch for number issues and start recommending warnings for the repeat offenders. I’m going to ask our scorers and camera folks to make sure to indicate when there are issues (I’ve had the scorers put a star beside the number on the scoring sheets). What I’m considering as “issues”:

Number sideways/upside down/wrong side

Number too high: number unreadable on the camera without additional information (like, knowing that the dude with the green and white jersey whose number starts with 16 is actually 168)

I’m going to start a list of the number of weeks with a problem for different riders, and I will share that list once I have it compiled so we can track offenses across other races.

I’m giving cat 5 racers a pass because a lot of them have never pinned a number in their life.

If we can’t read a number at the line though, we can’t score them. I’m gonna have some pissed off cat 1 / cat 2/3 / masters guys at me, but, they gotta figure this out.

Dan

On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 12:29 PM, Mike Murray via OBRA_Officials < obra_officials@list.obra.org > wrote:

Here are a couple items from the rulebook:

11.5 Accrual of warnings

Riders who accrue 3 misconduct warnings from a Chief Referee

within one calendar year may be suspended for a period of 30

days with the approval of the Board of Directors. If, after the

suspension, the rider accrues another warning within the same

calendar year, the Board of Directors may deem the rider ineligible

to ride for the rest of the calendar year. Calendar year shall be

defined as the season running from January 1st of the year to

December 31st of the same year.

8.4 Unreadable numbers

Unreadable numbers may not be placed.

Now I guess the question would be if a warning for bad number placement is considered a “misconduct” warning. I would argue yes. Unfortunately we do not have a tracking method that will notify us when a rider gets 3 warnings. My guess is that, with the exception of warnings for personality disorder related behaviors, no one notices until the issue is pretty egregious. If you note someone that is a recurrent bad number pinner and they have been warned 3 times you should probably submit that to Kenji to act on.

Mike Murray

From: OBRA_Officials [mailto: obra_officials-bounces@list.obra.org ] On Behalf Of Mike Hilbrandt via OBRA_Officials
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 11:28
To: Dan Grabski
Cc: OBRA Officials
Subject: Re: [OBRA Officials] Number placement

We already do give warnings.
The question is: Who cares about a warning? It doesn't change the results, only delays them, and it is only a 30 second inconvenience of having some OBRA official tell you your number placement is bad.

On Sep 27, 2016 10:55 AM, "Dan Grabski via OBRA_Officials" < obra_officials@list.obra.org > wrote:

Hey everyone -

So as you've probably noticed, we've been having lots of problems with number placement this cross season. It took me a couple days to sort through the latest set of Trophy Cup results because they were so bad, and I know I missed some.

What else can we do to motivate people to pin their numbers correctly? We've got people checking numbers before races, but we can't get everything. I've been putting notes in the results but people don't want to put in the effort to fix their numbers.

Can we start issuing warnings for people who aren't getting the hint and are doing this more than once? Do we have other ways of dealing with this? I give a lot of leeway to the cat 5 guy who's rolled up to the start line for the first time ever, but when you've got a masters 2/3 guy who's doing stuff like putting his number sideways, there's no excuse for that. And waiting a couple days for results is no motivation for them, all it does is get me emails from people wondering when results will be done.

Dan

_______________________________________________
OBRA_Officials mailing list
OBRA_Officials@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_officials

Hazel

2016-09-27

Maybe a Google Doc would be helpful to keep track of riders throughout
different races?

On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Dan Grabski via OBRA_Officials <
obra_officials@list.obra.org> wrote:

> So, my plan for tonight is to watch for number issues and start
> recommending warnings for the repeat offenders. I’m going to ask our
> scorers and camera folks to make sure to indicate when there are issues
> (I’ve had the scorers put a star beside the number on the scoring sheets).
> What I’m considering as “issues”:
>
>
>
> Number sideways/upside down/wrong side
>
> Number too high: number unreadable on the camera without additional
> information (like, knowing that the dude with the green and white jersey
> whose number starts with 16 is actually 168)
>
>
>
> I’m going to start a list of the number of weeks with a problem for
> different riders, and I will share that list once I have it compiled so we
> can track offenses across other races.
>
>
>
> I’m giving cat 5 racers a pass because a lot of them have never pinned a
> number in their life.
>
>
>
> If we can’t read a number at the line though, we can’t score them. I’m
> gonna have some pissed off cat 1 / cat 2/3 / masters guys at me, but, they
> gotta figure this out.
>
>
>
> Dan
>
> On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 12:29 PM, Mike Murray via OBRA_Officials <
> obra_officials@list.obra.org> wrote:
>
>> Here are a couple items from the rulebook:
>>
>>
>>
>> 11.5 Accrual of warnings
>>
>> Riders who accrue 3 misconduct warnings from a Chief Referee
>>
>> within one calendar year may be suspended for a period of 30
>>
>> days with the approval of the Board of Directors. If, after the
>>
>> suspension, the rider accrues another warning within the same
>>
>> calendar year, the Board of Directors may deem the rider ineligible
>>
>> to ride for the rest of the calendar year. Calendar year shall be
>>
>> defined as the season running from January 1st of the year to
>>
>> December 31st of the same year.
>>
>>
>>
>> 8.4 Unreadable numbers
>>
>> Unreadable numbers may not be placed.
>>
>>
>>
>> Now I guess the question would be if a warning for bad number placement
>> is considered a “misconduct” warning. I would argue yes. Unfortunately we
>> do not have a tracking method that will notify us when a rider gets 3
>> warnings. My guess is that, with the exception of warnings for personality
>> disorder related behaviors, no one notices until the issue is pretty
>> egregious. If you note someone that is a recurrent bad number pinner and
>> they have been warned 3 times you should probably submit that to Kenji to
>> act on.
>>
>>
>>
>> Mike Murray
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* OBRA_Officials [mailto:obra_officials-bounces@list.obra.org] *On
>> Behalf Of *Mike Hilbrandt via OBRA_Officials
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 27, 2016 11:28
>> *To:* Dan Grabski
>> *Cc:* OBRA Officials
>> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Officials] Number placement
>>
>>
>>
>> We already do give warnings.
>> The question is: Who cares about a warning? It doesn't change the
>> results, only delays them, and it is only a 30 second inconvenience of
>> having some OBRA official tell you your number placement is bad.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sep 27, 2016 10:55 AM, "Dan Grabski via OBRA_Officials" <
>> obra_officials@list.obra.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hey everyone -
>>
>> So as you've probably noticed, we've been having lots of problems with
>> number placement this cross season. It took me a couple days to sort
>> through the latest set of Trophy Cup results because they were so bad, and
>> I know I missed some.
>>
>>
>>
>> What else can we do to motivate people to pin their numbers correctly?
>> We've got people checking numbers before races, but we can't get
>> everything. I've been putting notes in the results but people don't want to
>> put in the effort to fix their numbers.
>>
>>
>>
>> Can we start issuing warnings for people who aren't getting the hint and
>> are doing this more than once? Do we have other ways of dealing with this?
>> I give a lot of leeway to the cat 5 guy who's rolled up to the start line
>> for the first time ever, but when you've got a masters 2/3 guy who's doing
>> stuff like putting his number sideways, there's no excuse for that. And
>> waiting a couple days for results is no motivation for them, all it does is
>> get me emails from people wondering when results will be done.
>>
>>
>>
>> Dan
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA_Officials mailing list
>> OBRA_Officials@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_officials
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA_Officials mailing list
>> OBRA_Officials@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_officials
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Officials mailing list
> OBRA_Officials@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_officials
>
>

Candi Murray

2016-09-27

We could start a spreadsheet and record the amount of accruals. I know that
I tend to send pics from the camera to help educate.
Candi

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 27, 2016, at 12:43 PM, Mike Murray via OBRA_Officials <
obra_officials@list.obra.org> wrote:

Here are a couple items from the rulebook:

11.5 Accrual of warnings

Riders who accrue 3 misconduct warnings from a Chief Referee

within one calendar year may be suspended for a period of 30

days with the approval of the Board of Directors. If, after the

suspension, the rider accrues another warning within the same

calendar year, the Board of Directors may deem the rider ineligible

to ride for the rest of the calendar year. Calendar year shall be

defined as the season running from January 1st of the year to

December 31st of the same year.

8.4 Unreadable numbers

Unreadable numbers may not be placed.

Now I guess the question would be if a warning for bad number placement is
considered a “misconduct” warning. I would argue yes. Unfortunately we do
not have a tracking method that will notify us when a rider gets 3
warnings. My guess is that, with the exception of warnings for personality
disorder related behaviors, no one notices until the issue is pretty
egregious. If you note someone that is a recurrent bad number pinner and
they have been warned 3 times you should probably submit that to Kenji to
act on.

Mike Murray

*From:* OBRA_Officials [mailto:obra_officials-bounces@list.obra.org] *On
Behalf Of *Mike Hilbrandt via OBRA_Officials
*Sent:* Tuesday, September 27, 2016 11:28
*To:* Dan Grabski
*Cc:* OBRA Officials
*Subject:* Re: [OBRA Officials] Number placement

We already do give warnings.
The question is: Who cares about a warning? It doesn't change the results,
only delays them, and it is only a 30 second inconvenience of having some
OBRA official tell you your number placement is bad.

On Sep 27, 2016 10:55 AM, "Dan Grabski via OBRA_Officials" <
obra_officials@list.obra.org> wrote:

Hey everyone -

So as you've probably noticed, we've been having lots of problems with
number placement this cross season. It took me a couple days to sort
through the latest set of Trophy Cup results because they were so bad, and
I know I missed some.

What else can we do to motivate people to pin their numbers correctly?
We've got people checking numbers before races, but we can't get
everything. I've been putting notes in the results but people don't want to
put in the effort to fix their numbers.

Can we start issuing warnings for people who aren't getting the hint and
are doing this more than once? Do we have other ways of dealing with this?
I give a lot of leeway to the cat 5 guy who's rolled up to the start line
for the first time ever, but when you've got a masters 2/3 guy who's doing
stuff like putting his number sideways, there's no excuse for that. And
waiting a couple days for results is no motivation for them, all it does is
get me emails from people wondering when results will be done.

Dan

_______________________________________________
OBRA_Officials mailing list
OBRA_Officials@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_officials

Candi Murray

2016-09-27

Mel
I agree. We also need to take into account the riders level of experience.
Candi

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 27, 2016, at 12:45 PM, Melanie Rathe via OBRA_Officials <
obra_officials@list.obra.org> wrote:

This situation does remind me of when we started requiring riders to show
their obra membership cards at registration. There were a lot of pissed off
people but it seems to almost be a non-issue now.
Dan brings up a good point about when do you make the call to not score
someone. If we take this stand we need to have very clear guidelines on
when a rider is not getting scored......for example, I have seen blind date
numbers used at a GP race, a road number used, out of category numbers used
and of course no number. These 4 situations seem to be the most obvious
reason not to score a rider. But what about the high number, or the low
number, or the sideways number or the.......get my point?
Mel

------------------------------
*From: *"Dan Grabski via OBRA_Officials"
*To: *"Mike Murray"
*Cc: *"Official's listserv"
*Sent: *Tuesday, September 27, 2016 11:32:05 AM
*Subject: *Re: [OBRA Officials] Number placement

And the couple people who have had numbers torn off by crashes or the like
have come up to me personally after the race to let me know. I am fine with
that and there's no reason to ding someone for that. But yeah - it is
getting to the point where we just can't place people because we have to
make wild guesses.

What threshold do we use before we start not scoring people? There's going
to be a lot of pissed off racers if I do that - not saying it's a bad
thing, just need to keep it in mind so that we're consistent.

Dan

On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 11:26 AM, Mike Murray via OBRA_Officials <
obra_officials@list.obra.org> wrote:

> The rules allow you to not place them. Although I think that it is
> reasonable to place people that have a genuine error, number ripped off,
> etc. it is completely reasonable to not place a repeated offender. I should
> point out that I didn’t get placed one time because I had my number on the
> wrong side at PIR. If it can happen to me it should be able to happen to
> anyone. Personally I think a paintball gun to mark them as they go by would
> not be an unreasonable solution.
>
>
>
> Mike Murray
>
>
>
> *From:* OBRA_Officials [mailto:obra_officials-bounces@list.obra.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Hazel via OBRA_Officials
> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 27, 2016 11:23
> *To:* Dan Grabski
> *Cc:*
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Officials] Number placement
>
>
>
> It seems like repeat offenders in categories beyond Cat 5 should receive
> warnings. I've felt that way in regards to road races at PIR too. It's the
> same people do this every single week.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Dan Grabski via OBRA_Officials <
> obra_officials@list.obra.org> wrote:
>
> Hey everyone -
>
> So as you've probably noticed, we've been having lots of problems with
> number placement this cross season. It took me a couple days to sort
> through the latest set of Trophy Cup results because they were so bad, and
> I know I missed some.
>
>
>
> What else can we do to motivate people to pin their numbers correctly?
> We've got people checking numbers before races, but we can't get
> everything. I've been putting notes in the results but people don't want to
> put in the effort to fix their numbers.
>
>
>
> Can we start issuing warnings for people who aren't getting the hint and
> are doing this more than once? Do we have other ways of dealing with this?
> I give a lot of leeway to the cat 5 guy who's rolled up to the start line
> for the first time ever, but when you've got a masters 2/3 guy who's doing
> stuff like putting his number sideways, there's no excuse for that. And
> waiting a couple days for results is no motivation for them, all it does is
> get me emails from people wondering when results will be done.
>
>
>
> Dan
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Officials mailing list
> OBRA_Officials@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_officials
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Officials mailing list
> OBRA_Officials@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_officials
>
>

_______________________________________________
OBRA_Officials mailing list
OBRA_Officials@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_officials

Dan Grabski

2016-09-27

Mike, I am working on compiling a list of number issues as reported in
results for this cross season.

Dan

On Tuesday, September 27, 2016, Mike Murray via OBRA_Officials <
obra_officials@list.obra.org> wrote:

> Here are a couple items from the rulebook:
>
>
>
> 11.5 Accrual of warnings
>
> Riders who accrue 3 misconduct warnings from a Chief Referee
>
> within one calendar year may be suspended for a period of 30
>
> days with the approval of the Board of Directors. If, after the
>
> suspension, the rider accrues another warning within the same
>
> calendar year, the Board of Directors may deem the rider ineligible
>
> to ride for the rest of the calendar year. Calendar year shall be
>
> defined as the season running from January 1st of the year to
>
> December 31st of the same year.
>
>
>
> 8.4 Unreadable numbers
>
> Unreadable numbers may not be placed.
>
>
>
> Now I guess the question would be if a warning for bad number placement is
> considered a “misconduct” warning. I would argue yes. Unfortunately we do
> not have a tracking method that will notify us when a rider gets 3
> warnings. My guess is that, with the exception of warnings for personality
> disorder related behaviors, no one notices until the issue is pretty
> egregious. If you note someone that is a recurrent bad number pinner and
> they have been warned 3 times you should probably submit that to Kenji to
> act on.
>
>
>
> Mike Murray
>
>
>
> *From:* OBRA_Officials [mailto:obra_officials-bounces@list.obra.org
> ] *On
> Behalf Of *Mike Hilbrandt via OBRA_Officials
> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 27, 2016 11:28
> *To:* Dan Grabski
> *Cc:* OBRA Officials
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Officials] Number placement
>
>
>
> We already do give warnings.
> The question is: Who cares about a warning? It doesn't change the results,
> only delays them, and it is only a 30 second inconvenience of having some
> OBRA official tell you your number placement is bad.
>
>
>
> On Sep 27, 2016 10:55 AM, "Dan Grabski via OBRA_Officials" <
> obra_officials@list.obra.org
> > wrote:
>
> Hey everyone -
>
> So as you've probably noticed, we've been having lots of problems with
> number placement this cross season. It took me a couple days to sort
> through the latest set of Trophy Cup results because they were so bad, and
> I know I missed some.
>
>
>
> What else can we do to motivate people to pin their numbers correctly?
> We've got people checking numbers before races, but we can't get
> everything. I've been putting notes in the results but people don't want to
> put in the effort to fix their numbers.
>
>
>
> Can we start issuing warnings for people who aren't getting the hint and
> are doing this more than once? Do we have other ways of dealing with this?
> I give a lot of leeway to the cat 5 guy who's rolled up to the start line
> for the first time ever, but when you've got a masters 2/3 guy who's doing
> stuff like putting his number sideways, there's no excuse for that. And
> waiting a couple days for results is no motivation for them, all it does is
> get me emails from people wondering when results will be done.
>
>
>
> Dan
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Officials mailing list
> OBRA_Officials@list.obra.org
>
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_officials
>

Dan Grabski

2016-09-27

So, my plan for tonight is to watch for number issues and start
recommending warnings for the repeat offenders. I’m going to ask our
scorers and camera folks to make sure to indicate when there are issues
(I’ve had the scorers put a star beside the number on the scoring sheets).
What I’m considering as “issues”:

Number sideways/upside down/wrong side

Number too high: number unreadable on the camera without additional
information (like, knowing that the dude with the green and white jersey
whose number starts with 16 is actually 168)

I’m going to start a list of the number of weeks with a problem for
different riders, and I will share that list once I have it compiled so we
can track offenses across other races.

I’m giving cat 5 racers a pass because a lot of them have never pinned a
number in their life.

If we can’t read a number at the line though, we can’t score them. I’m
gonna have some pissed off cat 1 / cat 2/3 / masters guys at me, but, they
gotta figure this out.

Dan

On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 12:29 PM, Mike Murray via OBRA_Officials <
obra_officials@list.obra.org> wrote:

> Here are a couple items from the rulebook:
>
>
>
> 11.5 Accrual of warnings
>
> Riders who accrue 3 misconduct warnings from a Chief Referee
>
> within one calendar year may be suspended for a period of 30
>
> days with the approval of the Board of Directors. If, after the
>
> suspension, the rider accrues another warning within the same
>
> calendar year, the Board of Directors may deem the rider ineligible
>
> to ride for the rest of the calendar year. Calendar year shall be
>
> defined as the season running from January 1st of the year to
>
> December 31st of the same year.
>
>
>
> 8.4 Unreadable numbers
>
> Unreadable numbers may not be placed.
>
>
>
> Now I guess the question would be if a warning for bad number placement is
> considered a “misconduct” warning. I would argue yes. Unfortunately we do
> not have a tracking method that will notify us when a rider gets 3
> warnings. My guess is that, with the exception of warnings for personality
> disorder related behaviors, no one notices until the issue is pretty
> egregious. If you note someone that is a recurrent bad number pinner and
> they have been warned 3 times you should probably submit that to Kenji to
> act on.
>
>
>
> Mike Murray
>
>
>
> *From:* OBRA_Officials [mailto:obra_officials-bounces@list.obra.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Mike Hilbrandt via OBRA_Officials
> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 27, 2016 11:28
> *To:* Dan Grabski
> *Cc:* OBRA Officials
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Officials] Number placement
>
>
>
> We already do give warnings.
> The question is: Who cares about a warning? It doesn't change the results,
> only delays them, and it is only a 30 second inconvenience of having some
> OBRA official tell you your number placement is bad.
>
>
>
> On Sep 27, 2016 10:55 AM, "Dan Grabski via OBRA_Officials" <
> obra_officials@list.obra.org> wrote:
>
> Hey everyone -
>
> So as you've probably noticed, we've been having lots of problems with
> number placement this cross season. It took me a couple days to sort
> through the latest set of Trophy Cup results because they were so bad, and
> I know I missed some.
>
>
>
> What else can we do to motivate people to pin their numbers correctly?
> We've got people checking numbers before races, but we can't get
> everything. I've been putting notes in the results but people don't want to
> put in the effort to fix their numbers.
>
>
>
> Can we start issuing warnings for people who aren't getting the hint and
> are doing this more than once? Do we have other ways of dealing with this?
> I give a lot of leeway to the cat 5 guy who's rolled up to the start line
> for the first time ever, but when you've got a masters 2/3 guy who's doing
> stuff like putting his number sideways, there's no excuse for that. And
> waiting a couple days for results is no motivation for them, all it does is
> get me emails from people wondering when results will be done.
>
>
>
> Dan
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Officials mailing list
> OBRA_Officials@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_officials
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Officials mailing list
> OBRA_Officials@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_officials
>
>

Melanie Rathe

2016-09-27

This situation does remind me of when we started requiring riders to show their obra membership cards at registration. There were a lot of pissed off people but it seems to almost be a non-issue now.
Dan brings up a good point about when do you make the call to not score someone. If we take this stand we need to have very clear guidelines on when a rider is not getting scored......for example, I have seen blind date numbers used at a GP race, a road number used, out of category numbers used and of course no number. These 4 situations seem to be the most obvious reason not to score a rider. But what about the high number, or the low number, or the sideways number or the.......get my point?
Mel

----- Original Message -----

From: "Dan Grabski via OBRA_Officials"
To: "Mike Murray"
Cc: "Official's listserv"
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 11:32:05 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Officials] Number placement

And the couple people who have had numbers torn off by crashes or the like have come up to me personally after the race to let me know. I am fine with that and there's no reason to ding someone for that. But yeah - it is getting to the point where we just can't place people because we have to make wild guesses.

What threshold do we use before we start not scoring people? There's going to be a lot of pissed off racers if I do that - not saying it's a bad thing, just need to keep it in mind so that we're consistent.

Dan

On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 11:26 AM, Mike Murray via OBRA_Officials < obra_officials@list.obra.org > wrote:

The rules allow you to not place them. Although I think that it is reasonable to place people that have a genuine error, number ripped off, etc. it is completely reasonable to not place a repeated offender. I should point out that I didn’t get placed one time because I had my number on the wrong side at PIR. If it can happen to me it should be able to happen to anyone. Personally I think a paintball gun to mark them as they go by would not be an unreasonable solution.

Mike Murray

From: OBRA_Officials [mailto: obra_officials-bounces@list.obra.org ] On Behalf Of Hazel via OBRA_Officials
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 11:23
To: Dan Grabski
Cc: < obra_officials@list.obra.org >
Subject: Re: [OBRA Officials] Number placement

It seems like repeat offenders in categories beyond Cat 5 should receive warnings. I've felt that way in regards to road races at PIR too. It's the same people do this every single week.

On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Dan Grabski via OBRA_Officials < obra_officials@list.obra.org > wrote:

Hey everyone -

So as you've probably noticed, we've been having lots of problems with number placement this cross season. It took me a couple days to sort through the latest set of Trophy Cup results because they were so bad, and I know I missed some.

What else can we do to motivate people to pin their numbers correctly? We've got people checking numbers before races, but we can't get everything. I've been putting notes in the results but people don't want to put in the effort to fix their numbers.

Can we start issuing warnings for people who aren't getting the hint and are doing this more than once? Do we have other ways of dealing with this? I give a lot of leeway to the cat 5 guy who's rolled up to the start line for the first time ever, but when you've got a masters 2/3 guy who's doing stuff like putting his number sideways, there's no excuse for that. And waiting a couple days for results is no motivation for them, all it does is get me emails from people wondering when results will be done.

Dan

_______________________________________________
OBRA_Officials mailing list
OBRA_Officials@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_officials

Mike Murray

2016-09-27

Here are a couple items from the rulebook:

11.5 Accrual of warnings

Riders who accrue 3 misconduct warnings from a Chief Referee

within one calendar year may be suspended for a period of 30

days with the approval of the Board of Directors. If, after the

suspension, the rider accrues another warning within the same

calendar year, the Board of Directors may deem the rider ineligible

to ride for the rest of the calendar year. Calendar year shall be

defined as the season running from January 1st of the year to

December 31st of the same year.

8.4 Unreadable numbers

Unreadable numbers may not be placed.

Now I guess the question would be if a warning for bad number placement is
considered a “misconduct” warning. I would argue yes. Unfortunately we do
not have a tracking method that will notify us when a rider gets 3
warnings. My guess is that, with the exception of warnings for personality
disorder related behaviors, no one notices until the issue is pretty
egregious. If you note someone that is a recurrent bad number pinner and
they have been warned 3 times you should probably submit that to Kenji to
act on.

Mike Murray

*From:* OBRA_Officials [mailto:obra_officials-bounces@list.obra.org] *On
Behalf Of *Mike Hilbrandt via OBRA_Officials
*Sent:* Tuesday, September 27, 2016 11:28
*To:* Dan Grabski
*Cc:* OBRA Officials
*Subject:* Re: [OBRA Officials] Number placement

We already do give warnings.
The question is: Who cares about a warning? It doesn't change the results,
only delays them, and it is only a 30 second inconvenience of having some
OBRA official tell you your number placement is bad.

On Sep 27, 2016 10:55 AM, "Dan Grabski via OBRA_Officials" <
obra_officials@list.obra.org> wrote:

Hey everyone -

So as you've probably noticed, we've been having lots of problems with
number placement this cross season. It took me a couple days to sort
through the latest set of Trophy Cup results because they were so bad, and
I know I missed some.

What else can we do to motivate people to pin their numbers correctly?
We've got people checking numbers before races, but we can't get
everything. I've been putting notes in the results but people don't want to
put in the effort to fix their numbers.

Can we start issuing warnings for people who aren't getting the hint and
are doing this more than once? Do we have other ways of dealing with this?
I give a lot of leeway to the cat 5 guy who's rolled up to the start line
for the first time ever, but when you've got a masters 2/3 guy who's doing
stuff like putting his number sideways, there's no excuse for that. And
waiting a couple days for results is no motivation for them, all it does is
get me emails from people wondering when results will be done.

Dan

_______________________________________________
OBRA_Officials mailing list
OBRA_Officials@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_officials

newtons4

2016-09-27

Dan
Put it on OBRA and at Registration that racers with bad number placement will not be scored tonight and let's see if there is a noticeable difference.
They can't say they were not warned.
Neil

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
-------- Original message --------From: Dan Grabski via OBRA_Officials Date: 9/27/16 11:32 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Mike Murray Cc: Official's listserv Subject: Re: [OBRA Officials] Number placement
And the couple people who have had numbers torn off by crashes or the like have come up to me personally after the race to let me know. I am fine with that and there's no reason to ding someone for that. But yeah - it is getting to the point where we just can't place people because we have to make wild guesses.
What threshold do we use before we start not scoring people? There's going to be a lot of pissed off racers if I do that - not saying it's a bad thing, just need to keep it in mind so that we're consistent.
Dan
On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 11:26 AM, Mike Murray via OBRA_Officials wrote:
The rules allow you to not place them. Although I think that it is reasonable to place people that have a genuine error, number ripped off, etc. it is completely reasonable to not place a repeated offender. I should point out that I didn’t get placed one time because I had my number on the wrong side at PIR. If it can happen to me it should be able to happen to anyone. Personally I think a paintball gun to mark them as they go by would not be an unreasonable solution. Mike Murray From: OBRA_Officials [mailto:obra_officials-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Hazel via OBRA_Officials
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 11:23
To: Dan Grabski
Cc:
Subject: Re: [OBRA Officials] Number placement It seems like repeat offenders in categories beyond Cat 5 should receive warnings. I've felt that way in regards to road races at PIR too. It's the same people do this every single week. On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Dan Grabski via OBRA_Officials wrote:Hey everyone -So as you've probably noticed, we've been having lots of problems with number placement this cross season. It took me a couple days to sort through the latest set of Trophy Cup results because they were so bad, and I know I missed some. What else can we do to motivate people to pin their numbers correctly? We've got people checking numbers before races, but we can't get everything. I've been putting notes in the results but people don't want to put in the effort to fix their numbers. Can we start issuing warnings for people who aren't getting the hint and are doing this more than once? Do we have other ways of dealing with this? I give a lot of leeway to the cat 5 guy who's rolled up to the start line for the first time ever, but when you've got a masters 2/3 guy who's doing stuff like putting his number sideways, there's no excuse for that. And waiting a couple days for results is no motivation for them, all it does is get me emails from people wondering when results will be done. Dan
_______________________________________________
OBRA_Officials mailing list
OBRA_Officials@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_officials

_______________________________________________

OBRA_Officials mailing list

OBRA_Officials@list.obra.org

http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_officials

Mike Hilbrandt

2016-09-27

We already do give warnings.
The question is: Who cares about a warning? It doesn't change the results,
only delays them, and it is only a 30 second inconvenience of having some
OBRA official tell you your number placement is bad.

On Sep 27, 2016 10:55 AM, "Dan Grabski via OBRA_Officials" <
obra_officials@list.obra.org> wrote:

> Hey everyone -
> So as you've probably noticed, we've been having lots of problems with
> number placement this cross season. It took me a couple days to sort
> through the latest set of Trophy Cup results because they were so bad, and
> I know I missed some.
>
> What else can we do to motivate people to pin their numbers correctly?
> We've got people checking numbers before races, but we can't get
> everything. I've been putting notes in the results but people don't want to
> put in the effort to fix their numbers.
>
> Can we start issuing warnings for people who aren't getting the hint and
> are doing this more than once? Do we have other ways of dealing with this?
> I give a lot of leeway to the cat 5 guy who's rolled up to the start line
> for the first time ever, but when you've got a masters 2/3 guy who's doing
> stuff like putting his number sideways, there's no excuse for that. And
> waiting a couple days for results is no motivation for them, all it does is
> get me emails from people wondering when results will be done.
>
> Dan
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Officials mailing list
> OBRA_Officials@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_officials
>
>

Christopher Fudge

2016-09-27

newtons4

2016-09-27

Here's my $.02
As long as we keep putting in long hours making sure they are getting scored the bad habits will never change.
When someone misses out on points, or loses a series win because they aren't scored they will pay attention and pin their number correctly.
Until we make a point to not score racers, bad placement will continue.
Neil

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
-------- Original message --------From: Hazel via OBRA_Officials Date: 9/27/16 11:22 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Dan Grabski Cc: "" Subject: Re: [OBRA Officials] Number placement
It seems like repeat offenders in categories beyond Cat 5 should receive warnings. I've felt that way in regards to road races at PIR too. It's the same people do this every single week.

On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Dan Grabski via OBRA_Officials wrote:
Hey everyone -So as you've probably noticed, we've been having lots of problems with number placement this cross season. It took me a couple days to sort through the latest set of Trophy Cup results because they were so bad, and I know I missed some.
What else can we do to motivate people to pin their numbers correctly? We've got people checking numbers before races, but we can't get everything. I've been putting notes in the results but people don't want to put in the effort to fix their numbers.
Can we start issuing warnings for people who aren't getting the hint and are doing this more than once? Do we have other ways of dealing with this? I give a lot of leeway to the cat 5 guy who's rolled up to the start line for the first time ever, but when you've got a masters 2/3 guy who's doing stuff like putting his number sideways, there's no excuse for that. And waiting a couple days for results is no motivation for them, all it does is get me emails from people wondering when results will be done.
Dan

_______________________________________________

OBRA_Officials mailing list

OBRA_Officials@list.obra.org

http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_officials

Dan Grabski

2016-09-27

And the couple people who have had numbers torn off by crashes or the like
have come up to me personally after the race to let me know. I am fine with
that and there's no reason to ding someone for that. But yeah - it is
getting to the point where we just can't place people because we have to
make wild guesses.

What threshold do we use before we start not scoring people? There's going
to be a lot of pissed off racers if I do that - not saying it's a bad
thing, just need to keep it in mind so that we're consistent.

Dan

On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 11:26 AM, Mike Murray via OBRA_Officials <
obra_officials@list.obra.org> wrote:

> The rules allow you to not place them. Although I think that it is
> reasonable to place people that have a genuine error, number ripped off,
> etc. it is completely reasonable to not place a repeated offender. I should
> point out that I didn’t get placed one time because I had my number on the
> wrong side at PIR. If it can happen to me it should be able to happen to
> anyone. Personally I think a paintball gun to mark them as they go by would
> not be an unreasonable solution.
>
>
>
> Mike Murray
>
>
>
> *From:* OBRA_Officials [mailto:obra_officials-bounces@list.obra.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Hazel via OBRA_Officials
> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 27, 2016 11:23
> *To:* Dan Grabski
> *Cc:*
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Officials] Number placement
>
>
>
> It seems like repeat offenders in categories beyond Cat 5 should receive
> warnings. I've felt that way in regards to road races at PIR too. It's the
> same people do this every single week.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Dan Grabski via OBRA_Officials <
> obra_officials@list.obra.org> wrote:
>
> Hey everyone -
>
> So as you've probably noticed, we've been having lots of problems with
> number placement this cross season. It took me a couple days to sort
> through the latest set of Trophy Cup results because they were so bad, and
> I know I missed some.
>
>
>
> What else can we do to motivate people to pin their numbers correctly?
> We've got people checking numbers before races, but we can't get
> everything. I've been putting notes in the results but people don't want to
> put in the effort to fix their numbers.
>
>
>
> Can we start issuing warnings for people who aren't getting the hint and
> are doing this more than once? Do we have other ways of dealing with this?
> I give a lot of leeway to the cat 5 guy who's rolled up to the start line
> for the first time ever, but when you've got a masters 2/3 guy who's doing
> stuff like putting his number sideways, there's no excuse for that. And
> waiting a couple days for results is no motivation for them, all it does is
> get me emails from people wondering when results will be done.
>
>
>
> Dan
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Officials mailing list
> OBRA_Officials@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_officials
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Officials mailing list
> OBRA_Officials@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_officials
>
>

Mike Murray

2016-09-27

The rules allow you to not place them. Although I think that it is
reasonable to place people that have a genuine error, number ripped off,
etc. it is completely reasonable to not place a repeated offender. I should
point out that I didn’t get placed one time because I had my number on the
wrong side at PIR. If it can happen to me it should be able to happen to
anyone. Personally I think a paintball gun to mark them as they go by would
not be an unreasonable solution.

Mike Murray

*From:* OBRA_Officials [mailto:obra_officials-bounces@list.obra.org] *On
Behalf Of *Hazel via OBRA_Officials
*Sent:* Tuesday, September 27, 2016 11:23
*To:* Dan Grabski
*Cc:*
*Subject:* Re: [OBRA Officials] Number placement

It seems like repeat offenders in categories beyond Cat 5 should receive
warnings. I've felt that way in regards to road races at PIR too. It's the
same people do this every single week.

On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Dan Grabski via OBRA_Officials <
obra_officials@list.obra.org> wrote:

Hey everyone -

So as you've probably noticed, we've been having lots of problems with
number placement this cross season. It took me a couple days to sort
through the latest set of Trophy Cup results because they were so bad, and
I know I missed some.

What else can we do to motivate people to pin their numbers correctly?
We've got people checking numbers before races, but we can't get
everything. I've been putting notes in the results but people don't want to
put in the effort to fix their numbers.

Can we start issuing warnings for people who aren't getting the hint and
are doing this more than once? Do we have other ways of dealing with this?
I give a lot of leeway to the cat 5 guy who's rolled up to the start line
for the first time ever, but when you've got a masters 2/3 guy who's doing
stuff like putting his number sideways, there's no excuse for that. And
waiting a couple days for results is no motivation for them, all it does is
get me emails from people wondering when results will be done.

Dan

_______________________________________________
OBRA_Officials mailing list
OBRA_Officials@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_officials

Hazel

2016-09-27

It seems like repeat offenders in categories beyond Cat 5 should receive
warnings. I've felt that way in regards to road races at PIR too. It's the
same people do this every single week.

On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Dan Grabski via OBRA_Officials <
obra_officials@list.obra.org> wrote:

> Hey everyone -
> So as you've probably noticed, we've been having lots of problems with
> number placement this cross season. It took me a couple days to sort
> through the latest set of Trophy Cup results because they were so bad, and
> I know I missed some.
>
> What else can we do to motivate people to pin their numbers correctly?
> We've got people checking numbers before races, but we can't get
> everything. I've been putting notes in the results but people don't want to
> put in the effort to fix their numbers.
>
> Can we start issuing warnings for people who aren't getting the hint and
> are doing this more than once? Do we have other ways of dealing with this?
> I give a lot of leeway to the cat 5 guy who's rolled up to the start line
> for the first time ever, but when you've got a masters 2/3 guy who's doing
> stuff like putting his number sideways, there's no excuse for that. And
> waiting a couple days for results is no motivation for them, all it does is
> get me emails from people wondering when results will be done.
>
> Dan
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Officials mailing list
> OBRA_Officials@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_officials
>
>

Dan Grabski

2016-09-27

Hey everyone -
So as you've probably noticed, we've been having lots of problems with
number placement this cross season. It took me a couple days to sort
through the latest set of Trophy Cup results because they were so bad, and
I know I missed some.

What else can we do to motivate people to pin their numbers correctly?
We've got people checking numbers before races, but we can't get
everything. I've been putting notes in the results but people don't want to
put in the effort to fix their numbers.

Can we start issuing warnings for people who aren't getting the hint and
are doing this more than once? Do we have other ways of dealing with this?
I give a lot of leeway to the cat 5 guy who's rolled up to the start line
for the first time ever, but when you've got a masters 2/3 guy who's doing
stuff like putting his number sideways, there's no excuse for that. And
waiting a couple days for results is no motivation for them, all it does is
get me emails from people wondering when results will be done.

Dan