Sara Davidson

Frankly, the attitudes of most of the men in this thread are enough to make me very seriously rethink my participation in OBRA events. I doubt I'm the only woman doing so today.

Ron

You can’t say it’s not about money, then have your only complaint and only solution revolve around money.

What else should we do? Offer multiple series’ and competitions aimed specifically at women? Provide women’s categories at all races? Make sure there is equal access to venues, officials, volunteers and other support? Make sure someone is waiting 30 minutes in freezing rain to score that last female finisher, so she feels her race is just as important as a 1/2 man?

Maybe if we only did some of those things, that would be a good start?

You believe we have to make changes if we want to encourage female participation. I agree (although it’s more than a gender-specific problem). But what do you want and what do you propose besides an extra $100 from the pocket of a promoter? Because I don’t agree that is a solution. I don’t believe that lack of prize money ever stopped anybody from entering their first amateur bike race.

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 22, 2018, at 4:48 PM, Heather Johnson via OBRA > wrote:

FWIW it isn't a matter of winning money. I see it as a matter of showing women that we are indeed valued equally. (if you have to explain it, there's something wrong!) I personally like the idea that Rick Johnson came up with as we discussed it off-list.
all prize money should go towards medical insurance for participants in the event they are injured in a crash.
Perhaps not insurance specifically, but you get the general sentiment. Since this seems to be such a chronic problem point why not just adjust things so women who are looking at races don't feel like 2nd class citizens just looking at a flyer and we can help provide support for a problem that does stop some (of both genders) from entering?

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Marek Litinsky

Or we could just combine adult fields in one male and one female group and provide equal and fair payout for all adults who want to have decidedly race-oriented experience?

We could still ���score��� separately for the sake of upgrade points for all those racers who have national and international racing in their future?

stevea.long

OMG,
How many of the people complaining in this thread are actually putting on a race? This thread is rather daunting if you ask me,  a lowly promoter of a single race

Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S®4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone

If y'all want to continue to pander to the traditional OBRA core market of upper middle class white males with lots of free time, then great. Keep it up. This attitude and 'viewpoint' is a great way to do that. Just don't be surprised when there's not a lot of sympathy and head-scratching when registration numbers decline year after year.

Ron - I'm no math wizard, but I see five men's fields paying out $1625 to 26 men, and two women's fields paying out $375 dollars to 6 women. That comes out to exactly $62.5 per person across both fields - which is a great example of how to be 'technically' equal while still managing to pay the men over FOUR times as much purse. If you want to see how to do equal payout right - and grow your event while you're at it - go check out the Corvallis Cross Classic.

Clearly nobody's doing local club races to get rich, but if you're going to reward the winners, why not at least TRY to do so equally? And quit with the 'oh, well we we pay women less because less of them show up' argument. Less of them show up because the purse issue is just one facet of the shitty behavior women have to put up with if they want to participate in our events. Fix that, fix the shitty attitudes, and see what happens next.

-Brad

Adam Angert

Mike - You are correct. I misread your post in my previous reply... which doesn't appear to have posted to OBRA Chat anyways.

Adam Angert

Mike - My understanding was that it was an advisory vote and that the ED would ultimately make the decision. That said, the first paragraph of the OBRA Administrative Rules reads as follows:

"Modification of these rules may be made by vote of the Board of
Directors at any time or by vote of club representatives, generally
at an annual meeting. Changes to the rules which are primarily
of a housekeeping nature, such as printing format or changing
numbering, may be made without board approval."

We held a vote of club representatives and the rule proposal was passed.

Heather Johnson

FWIW it isn't a matter of winning money. I see it as a matter of showing
women that we are indeed valued equally. (if you have to explain it,
there's something wrong!) I personally like the idea that Rick Johnson came
up with as we discussed it off-list.

all prize money should go towards medical insurance for participants in the
event they are injured in a crash.

Perhaps not insurance specifically, but you get the general sentiment.
Since this seems to be such a chronic problem point why not just adjust
things so women who are looking at races don't feel like 2nd class citizens
just looking at a flyer and we can help provide support for a problem that
does stop some (of both genders) from entering?

Mike Murray

If the team representative voted for this rule change why is it not a
current rule? The ED does not have discretion to create, veto, implement or
not implement rule changes voted in by club representatives beyond the
ability to have event specific rules at the request of the race organizer
and with permission of the CR.

Beardsley's note indicates that Kenji stated that this would be an
administrative rule. I am not sure I agree with this but:

- Admin rules can be changed by vote of club representatives.
- The ED can NOT implement admin rules as Steven implied in his note.

Mike Murray
-----Original Message-----
From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Adam Angert via
OBRA
Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2018 09:59
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] KVRR

The appropriate venue for these objections was at the OBRA annual meeting,
where we discussed a proposal to amend the OBRA Administrative rules to
require equal prize payout.
There were few objections to this proposal at that time. The objections were
mostly related to the feasibility of equally dividing non-cash prizes in
large quantities at the Cross Crusade. There were no other objections that I
recall from any of the promoters present.
The team leaders and promoters in attendance then voted, almost unanimously,
in support of equal prizing.
It is now up to the OBRA Executive Director, having received the advise of
annual meeting attendees, to implement this rule change.
_______________________________________________
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Martha Walsh

Thanks, Paul!   -Martha
On Thursday, March 22, 2018, 10:53:41 AM PDT, anklebiter856 via OBRA wrote:

I reached out to Scottie to see what he said.  He has put past suggestions into consideration.
Here is what he had to say, "I will send you our prize list for this year and let everyone have a look at it.  We are matching the men's and women's podium spots equally and spending more on the women's non-cash prizes than the men's.

I for one am about 3 inches away from washing my hands of the whole XXXX thing and telling people to put on their own race.  If we don't get some marshals and drivers, there won't be a race this year and all people can do is xxx about the xxx prize list.

I'm in Maui and I'm going to go ride my bike."
I would like to add, we drove Chad away from directing the Cascade Classic last year with this issue as one of the contributing factors.  We got extremely lucky with Bart filling up the void.  We got a second chance with that one.  We will not with KVRR. 
Some additional facts about the race:  Scottie also is haunted by the rising cost of renting the parking from the folks that lease the property for their Christmas Tree farm along with the people on the corner near the start who are not very fond of riders peeing in public before the race.
For me personally, this race stacks up there with all the National events and a few stage races that I do.  There are very few one-day events that are this well organized with a larger payout on a such a challenging course.  Where else are you going to get to wear a regal robe and crown?
I am very grateful to Scottie and Cameron for hosting this event for so many years full of so many almost memories.
Paul Bourcier

On Thu, Mar 22, 2018 at 9:27 AM, Marek Litinsky via OBRA wrote:

>
> I really hope OBRA would take a position of not intruding into private business decisions of private entity that hires OBRA to provide service for said entity.
>
> Customers of said entity have all rights to avoid the event if so desired.
>
>> On Mar 22, 2018, at 8:43 AM, Adam Angert via OBRA wrote:
>>
>> Here we go again....
>> Wouldn't it be nice if OBRA leadership took a stance on this issue so that everyone can use their energy for something positive.
>> ______________________________ _________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/ listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
______________________________ _________________
OBRA mailing list
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John Wilger

Well-stated, Brad. +1

Given the size of these prizes anyway, I wish we’d just do away with
payouts altogether and just give the winners a trophy. Do we really have
people racing OBRA events to earn money/gift certificates? Seriously, who
here would quit entering OBRA races if there were no prize other than
getting to stand on the podium?

I doubt attendance would be affected very much if there were no prizes of
significant monetary value, but having to see arguments from people who
can’t understand why a women’s field getting a much lower payout is
actively harmful to the sport sure does leave a bad taste.

I say all this as someone who is too slow to win cash or a trophy, of
course.

On Thu, Mar 22, 2018 at 10:25 AM Brad Davidson via OBRA
wrote:

> Come on Sal, your MRA is showing. This is not a matter of your 'viewpoint'
> being correct or not. It's disrespectful, unequal, and it's turning off a
> significant portion of OBRA's potential audience.
>
> If y'all want to continue to pander to the traditional OBRA core market of
> upper middle class white males with lots of free time, then great. Keep it
> up. This attitude and 'viewpoint' is a great way to do that. Just don't be
> surprised when there's not a lot of sympathy and head-scratching when
> registration numbers decline year after year.
>
> Ron - I'm no math wizard, but I see five men's fields paying out $1625 to
> 26 men, and two women's fields paying out $375 dollars to 6 women. That
> comes out to exactly $62.5 per person across both fields - which is a great
> example of how to be 'technically' equal while still managing to pay the
> men over FOUR times as much purse. If you want to see how to do equal
> payout right - and grow your event while you're at it - go check out the
> Corvallis Cross Classic.
>
> Clearly nobody's doing local club races to get rich, but if you're going
> to reward the winners, why not at least TRY to do so equally? And quit with
> the 'oh, well we we pay women less because less of them show up' argument.
> Less of them show up because the purse issue is just one facet of the
> shitty behavior women have to put up with if they want to participate in
> our events. Fix that, fix the shitty attitudes, and see what happens next.
>
> -Brad
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
--
John Wilger | +1 (971) 678-0999 | http://johnwilger.com

anklebiter856

I reached out to Scottie to see what he said. He has put past suggestions
into consideration.

Here is what he had to say, "I will send you our prize list for this year
and let everyone have a look at it. *We are matching the men's and women's
podium spots equally and spending more on the women's non-cash prizes than
the men's.*

I for one am about 3 inches away from washing my hands of the whole XXXX
thing and telling people to put on their own race. *If we don't get some
marshals and drivers, there won't be a race this year* and all people can
do is xxx about the xxx prize list.

I'm in Maui and I'm going to go ride my bike."

I would like to add, we drove Chad away from directing the Cascade Classic
last year with this issue as one of the contributing factors. We got
extremely lucky with Bart filling up the void. We got a second chance with
that one. We will not with KVRR.

Some additional facts about the race: Scottie also is haunted by the
rising cost of renting the parking from the folks that lease the property
for their Christmas Tree farm along with the people on the corner near the
start who are not very fond of riders peeing in public before the race.

For me personally, this race stacks up there with all the National events
and a few stage races that I do. There are very few one-day events that
are this well organized with a larger payout on a such a challenging
course. Where else are you going to get to wear a regal robe and crown?

I am very grateful to Scottie and Cameron for hosting this event for so
many years full of so many almost memories.

Paul Bourcier

On Thu, Mar 22, 2018 at 9:27 AM, Marek Litinsky via OBRA wrote:

>
>
>
>
> >
> > I really hope OBRA would take a position of not intruding into private
> business decisions of private entity that hires OBRA to provide service for
> said entity.
> >
> > Customers of said entity have all rights to avoid the event if so
> desired.
> >
> >> On Mar 22, 2018, at 8:43 AM, Adam Angert via OBRA
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Here we go again....
> >> Wouldn't it be nice if OBRA leadership took a stance on this issue so
> that everyone can use their energy for something positive.
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> OBRA mailing list
> >> obra@list.obra.org
> >> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Brad Davidson

Come on Sal, your MRA is showing. This is not a matter of your 'viewpoint'
being correct or not. It's disrespectful, unequal, and it's turning off a
significant portion of OBRA's potential audience.

If y'all want to continue to pander to the traditional OBRA core market of
upper middle class white males with lots of free time, then great. Keep it
up. This attitude and 'viewpoint' is a great way to do that. Just don't be
surprised when there's not a lot of sympathy and head-scratching when
registration numbers decline year after year.

Ron - I'm no math wizard, but I see five men's fields paying out $1625 to
26 men, and two women's fields paying out $375 dollars to 6 women. That
comes out to exactly $62.5 per person across both fields - which is a great
example of how to be 'technically' equal while still managing to pay the
men over FOUR times as much purse. If you want to see how to do equal
payout right - and grow your event while you're at it - go check out the
Corvallis Cross Classic.

Clearly nobody's doing local club races to get rich, but if you're going to
reward the winners, why not at least TRY to do so equally? And quit with
the 'oh, well we we pay women less because less of them show up' argument.
Less of them show up because the purse issue is just one facet of the
shitty behavior women have to put up with if they want to participate in
our events. Fix that, fix the shitty attitudes, and see what happens next.

-Brad

Adam Angert

The appropriate venue for these objections was at the OBRA annual meeting, where we discussed a proposal to amend the OBRA Administrative rules to require equal prize payout.
There were few objections to this proposal at that time. The objections were mostly related to the feasibility of equally dividing non-cash prizes in large quantities at the Cross Crusade. There were no other objections that I recall from any of the promoters present.
The team leaders and promoters in attendance then voted, almost unanimously, in support of equal prizing.
It is now up to the OBRA Executive Director, having received the advise of annual meeting attendees, to implement this rule change.

Tony Dirks

Amen
________________________________
From: OBRA on behalf of Marek Litinsky via OBRA
Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2018 9:27 AM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] KVRR

>
> I really hope OBRA would take a position of not intruding into private business decisions of private entity that hires OBRA to provide service for said entity.
>
> Customers of said entity have all rights to avoid the event if so desired.
>
>> On Mar 22, 2018, at 8:43 AM, Adam Angert via OBRA wrote:
>>
>> Here we go again....
>> Wouldn't it be nice if OBRA leadership took a stance on this issue so that everyone can use their energy for something positive.
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Marek Litinsky

>
> I really hope OBRA would take a position of not intruding into private business decisions of private entity that hires OBRA to provide service for said entity.
>
> Customers of said entity have all rights to avoid the event if so desired.
>
>> On Mar 22, 2018, at 8:43 AM, Adam Angert via OBRA wrote:
>>
>> Here we go again....
>> Wouldn't it be nice if OBRA leadership took a stance on this issue so that everyone can use their energy for something positive.
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Jordan F

I'm so glad we have such a strong community of men here who know what's best for women's racing. Clearly, you know what you're talking about, since numbers are so good right now, and we're definitely not losing dozens of women to other sports/disciplines that actually respect them every year.

Adam Angert

Here we go again....
Wouldn't it be nice if OBRA leadership took a stance on this issue so that everyone can use their energy for something positive.

Ron

What is equal about 19 women racing for $575 (including the $50 Cat 3 only prize) and 46 men racing for $775? I’m not sure the right people are complaining about payouts.

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 22, 2018, at 12:37 AM, Brad Davidson via OBRA > wrote:

If bike racing is in trouble, this thread is why. It's no wonder women don't show up to races when the folks in this community are so willing to flame them as ungrateful, or tell them to go do a "bubble run", when they ask for equal treatment. After much of that, I'd find something else to do, too. And with the ladies go their friends, partners, kids, etc.

If bike racing is in trouble, don't look outward, look in.

-Brad

On Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 23:37 Salvatore Collura via OBRA > wrote:
You’re right Brad, it is happening, and races are disappearing and future promoters will have to take losses to put on events. But, at least the prizes will be equal.

Heather, pointing out that the KVRR flyer has no sponsors on it is hilarious. Have you ever tried to put on a race? The joke here is that you don’t realize that with no sponsorship dollars, the promoter is putting his neck out there financially so that YOU can race your bike.

Elizabeth, show me the “institutional hoops” that make a men’s race 10mph faster than a women’s race.

And before you call me a sexist please remember that I started a women’s-only criterium series and took a financial loss to do it. I also added a women’s race to my Twilight series when we already had a really tight schedule and lost money on that as well. People, I encourage you to use your brains to think. Bike racing is in trouble, that should be our only agenda.

-sal

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 21, 2018, at 10:39 PM, Ron > wrote:

Brad, "Equal" and "Fair" are not the same thing. Something can be equal without being fair, and vice-versa.

Aaron, I challenge you to sit in an official's car behind every field at a road race and tell me that all of them are just as exciting as the others. They might all be working equally hard. They are not all equally exciting. Note this comment is age and gender neutral - decide for yourself which is which.

Heather, Maybe it's not discrimination. Maybe it's economics. Last year, they offered $525 and got 19 Cat 1/2/3 women. The field probably didn't pay for itself. Your other argument is that, if women can't support a larger purse, then no one should get one? And that will make it fair?

I believe promoters will and have supported ideas that target growing women's participation. I just don't think equal payouts are a difference maker. Focus your effort on how to promote and organize events in a way that encourage women's participation. Women's Prestige Series and PNWC are about improving racing opportunities and experiences, not about demanding equal payouts.

________________________________
From: OBRA > on behalf of Salvatore Collura via OBRA >
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2018 8:43 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] KVRR

You have no “right” to equal payout. Earn it. Make women’s bicycle racing the most exciting sport on the planet and it will pay for itself. It’s bullying because it’s your opinion being forced on someone else. I think Juniors and Cat 4/5s should get the best prizes because they are the future of the sport. I would never “put a race on notice” to force my personal viewpoint.

-sal

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 21, 2018, at 8:32 PM, Heather Johnson > wrote:

Sal this race has been put on notice for several years now that both men and women view this as a discriminatory practice. In addition to which they've made the payouts considerably more unequal this year than previous years. They're going backwards. "Being grateful there's a race" is not an excuse. If it's really such a problem for them hearing about this they could simply choose to eliminate the payout and put the registration money towards running the race/making a profit. Which would be fine. This isn't bullying, this is pointing out a discriminatory practice that is viewed as a significant factor in why we have such a difficult time getting women to stay in the sport. Being told to be grateful there's a women's field just reeks of sexism.

Heather Johnson
heatherjpdx@gmail.com
503-808-0616

On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 7:41 PM, Salvatore Collura via OBRA > wrote:
I can’t tell if y’all are serious. How about being happy there is a KVRR? And even happier that is has women’s categories?
Or, you could bully one of the few remaining promoters over prize distribution.

-sal

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 21, 2018, at 7:20 PM, Brian List via OBRA > wrote:

Just in case everyone isn't aware, I want to point out that "Men's" races are not gender restricted. Per rule 6.6.2:

"6.6.2 Women - Women may enter any race for which they are eligible by age, category, and any performance requirements and may enter categorized races for men that are up to one category lower than their women’s category, or in the case of category 1 women, up to two categories lower. Category 1/2 master women can race with master men up to 10 years older and Category 3/4 master women can race with master men up to 20 years older."

Any 1-2 woman can race in the Pro 1-2 field. Or, any 1-2-3 woman can race in the Men 3-4-5 field, etc.

I'm not saying this addresses the concern, just wanted to share it since it is related to the topic.

-brian

On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 4:10 PM, Heather Johnson via OBRA > wrote:
Can anyone please explain to me the prize list for King's Valley Road Race? Because I find it beyond perplexing/insulting that the novice men have a better payout than the 1/2/3 women. Not to mention that the P/1/2 men are receiving almost 300% what the 1/2/3 women are. Holy pay gap batman.

Pro-1-2 75 Miles $775 8 Deep
Masters 40-49 (Cat 3, 4, & 5) 56 Miles $265 6 Deep
Men Cat 3-4-5 * 56 Miles $325 6 Deep
Masters 50+/60+ (Cat 3, 4, & 5) 56 Miles $260 3/3 Deep
Women Cat 1-2-3** 56 Miles $265 3 Deep*
Women Cat 4-5 & 40+ Cat 3, 4 & 5** 37 Miles $110 3 Deep **

This seems like a good strategy if you want women to boycott, but otherwise? Not so much.

Heather Johnson

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Salvatore Collura

Actually this thread started because the promoter was being “flamed”.
I guess it’s impossible to discuss this subject because there is only one correct viewpoint.
Oh well.

-sal

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 22, 2018, at 12:37 AM, Brad Davidson via OBRA > wrote:

If bike racing is in trouble, this thread is why. It's no wonder women don't show up to races when the folks in this community are so willing to flame them as ungrateful, or tell them to go do a "bubble run", when they ask for equal treatment. After much of that, I'd find something else to do, too. And with the ladies go their friends, partners, kids, etc.

If bike racing is in trouble, don't look outward, look in.

-Brad

On Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 23:37 Salvatore Collura via OBRA > wrote:
You’re right Brad, it is happening, and races are disappearing and future promoters will have to take losses to put on events. But, at least the prizes will be equal.

Heather, pointing out that the KVRR flyer has no sponsors on it is hilarious. Have you ever tried to put on a race? The joke here is that you don’t realize that with no sponsorship dollars, the promoter is putting his neck out there financially so that YOU can race your bike.

Elizabeth, show me the “institutional hoops” that make a men’s race 10mph faster than a women’s race.

And before you call me a sexist please remember that I started a women’s-only criterium series and took a financial loss to do it. I also added a women’s race to my Twilight series when we already had a really tight schedule and lost money on that as well. People, I encourage you to use your brains to think. Bike racing is in trouble, that should be our only agenda.

-sal

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 21, 2018, at 10:39 PM, Ron > wrote:

Brad, "Equal" and "Fair" are not the same thing. Something can be equal without being fair, and vice-versa.

Aaron, I challenge you to sit in an official's car behind every field at a road race and tell me that all of them are just as exciting as the others. They might all be working equally hard. They are not all equally exciting. Note this comment is age and gender neutral - decide for yourself which is which.

Heather, Maybe it's not discrimination. Maybe it's economics. Last year, they offered $525 and got 19 Cat 1/2/3 women. The field probably didn't pay for itself. Your other argument is that, if women can't support a larger purse, then no one should get one? And that will make it fair?

I believe promoters will and have supported ideas that target growing women's participation. I just don't think equal payouts are a difference maker. Focus your effort on how to promote and organize events in a way that encourage women's participation. Women's Prestige Series and PNWC are about improving racing opportunities and experiences, not about demanding equal payouts.

________________________________
From: OBRA > on behalf of Salvatore Collura via OBRA >
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2018 8:43 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] KVRR

You have no “right” to equal payout. Earn it. Make women’s bicycle racing the most exciting sport on the planet and it will pay for itself. It’s bullying because it’s your opinion being forced on someone else. I think Juniors and Cat 4/5s should get the best prizes because they are the future of the sport. I would never “put a race on notice” to force my personal viewpoint.

-sal

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 21, 2018, at 8:32 PM, Heather Johnson > wrote:

Sal this race has been put on notice for several years now that both men and women view this as a discriminatory practice. In addition to which they've made the payouts considerably more unequal this year than previous years. They're going backwards. "Being grateful there's a race" is not an excuse. If it's really such a problem for them hearing about this they could simply choose to eliminate the payout and put the registration money towards running the race/making a profit. Which would be fine. This isn't bullying, this is pointing out a discriminatory practice that is viewed as a significant factor in why we have such a difficult time getting women to stay in the sport. Being told to be grateful there's a women's field just reeks of sexism.

Heather Johnson
heatherjpdx@gmail.com
503-808-0616

On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 7:41 PM, Salvatore Collura via OBRA > wrote:
I can’t tell if y’all are serious. How about being happy there is a KVRR? And even happier that is has women’s categories?
Or, you could bully one of the few remaining promoters over prize distribution.

-sal

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 21, 2018, at 7:20 PM, Brian List via OBRA > wrote:

Just in case everyone isn't aware, I want to point out that "Men's" races are not gender restricted. Per rule 6.6.2:

"6.6.2 Women - Women may enter any race for which they are eligible by age, category, and any performance requirements and may enter categorized races for men that are up to one category lower than their women’s category, or in the case of category 1 women, up to two categories lower. Category 1/2 master women can race with master men up to 10 years older and Category 3/4 master women can race with master men up to 20 years older."

Any 1-2 woman can race in the Pro 1-2 field. Or, any 1-2-3 woman can race in the Men 3-4-5 field, etc.

I'm not saying this addresses the concern, just wanted to share it since it is related to the topic.

-brian

On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 4:10 PM, Heather Johnson via OBRA > wrote:
Can anyone please explain to me the prize list for King's Valley Road Race? Because I find it beyond perplexing/insulting that the novice men have a better payout than the 1/2/3 women. Not to mention that the P/1/2 men are receiving almost 300% what the 1/2/3 women are. Holy pay gap batman.

Pro-1-2 75 Miles $775 8 Deep
Masters 40-49 (Cat 3, 4, & 5) 56 Miles $265 6 Deep
Men Cat 3-4-5 * 56 Miles $325 6 Deep
Masters 50+/60+ (Cat 3, 4, & 5) 56 Miles $260 3/3 Deep
Women Cat 1-2-3** 56 Miles $265 3 Deep*
Women Cat 4-5 & 40+ Cat 3, 4 & 5** 37 Miles $110 3 Deep **

This seems like a good strategy if you want women to boycott, but otherwise? Not so much.

Heather Johnson

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Brad Davidson

If bike racing is in trouble, this thread is why. It's no wonder women
don't show up to races when the folks in this community are so willing to
flame them as ungrateful, or tell them to go do a "bubble run", when they
ask for equal treatment. After much of that, I'd find something else to do,
too. And with the ladies go their friends, partners, kids, etc.

If bike racing is in trouble, don't look outward, look in.

-Brad

On Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 23:37 Salvatore Collura via OBRA
wrote:

> You’re right Brad, it is happening, and races are disappearing and future
> promoters will have to take losses to put on events. But, at least the
> prizes will be equal.
>
> Heather, pointing out that the KVRR flyer has no sponsors on it is
> hilarious. Have you ever tried to put on a race? The joke here is that you
> don’t realize that with no sponsorship dollars, the promoter is putting his
> neck out there financially so that YOU can race your bike.
>
> Elizabeth, show me the “institutional hoops” that make a men’s race 10mph
> faster than a women’s race.
>
> And before you call me a sexist please remember that I started a
> women’s-only criterium series and took a financial loss to do it. I also
> added a women’s race to my Twilight series when we already had a really
> tight schedule and lost money on that as well. People, I encourage you to
> use your brains to think. Bike racing is in trouble, that should be our
> only agenda.
>
> -sal
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 21, 2018, at 10:39 PM, Ron wrote:
>
> Brad, "Equal" and "Fair" are not the same thing. Something can be equal
> without being fair, and vice-versa.
>
>
> Aaron, I challenge you to sit in an official's car behind every field at a
> road race and tell me that all of them are just as exciting as the others.
> They might all be working equally hard. They are not all equally
> exciting. Note this comment is age and gender neutral - decide for
> yourself which is which.
>
>
> Heather, Maybe it's not discrimination. Maybe it's economics. Last year,
> they offered $525 and got 19 Cat 1/2/3 women. The field probably didn't
> pay for itself. Your other argument is that, if women can't support a
> larger purse, then no one should get one? And that will make it fair?
>
>
> I believe promoters will and have supported ideas that target growing
> women's participation. I just don't think equal payouts are a difference
> maker. Focus your effort on how to promote and organize events in a way
> that encourage women's participation. Women's Prestige Series and PNWC are
> about improving racing opportunities and experiences, not about demanding
> equal payouts.
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* OBRA on behalf of Salvatore Collura
> via OBRA
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 21, 2018 8:43 PM
> *To:* obra@list.obra.org
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] KVRR
>
> You have no “right” to equal payout. Earn it. Make women’s bicycle racing
> the most exciting sport on the planet and it will pay for itself. It’s
> bullying because it’s your opinion being forced on someone else. I think
> Juniors and Cat 4/5s should get the best prizes because they are the future
> of the sport. I would never “put a race on notice” to force my personal
> viewpoint.
>
> -sal
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 21, 2018, at 8:32 PM, Heather Johnson
> wrote:
>
> Sal this race has been put on notice for several years now that both men
> and women view this as a discriminatory practice. In addition to which
> they've made the payouts considerably more unequal this year than previous
> years. They're going backwards. "Being grateful there's a race" is not
> an excuse. If it's really such a problem for them hearing about this they
> could simply choose to eliminate the payout and put the registration money
> towards running the race/making a profit. Which would be fine. This isn't
> bullying, this is pointing out a discriminatory practice that is viewed as
> a significant factor in why we have such a difficult time getting women to
> stay in the sport. Being told to be grateful there's a women's field just
> reeks of sexism.
>
> Heather Johnson
> heatherjpdx@gmail.com
> 503-808-0616
>
> On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 7:41 PM, Salvatore Collura via OBRA <
> obra@list.obra.org> wrote:
>
> I can’t tell if y’all are serious. How about being happy there is a KVRR?
> And even happier that is has women’s categories?
> Or, you could bully one of the few remaining promoters over prize
> distribution.
>
> -sal
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 21, 2018, at 7:20 PM, Brian List via OBRA
> wrote:
>
> Just in case everyone isn't aware, I want to point out that "Men's" races
> are not gender restricted. Per rule 6.6.2:
>
> "6.6.2 Women - Women may enter any race for which they are eligible by
> age, category, and any performance requirements and may enter categorized
> races for men that are up to one category lower than their women’s
> category, or in the case of category 1 women, up to two categories lower.
> Category 1/2 master women can race with master men up to 10 years older and
> Category 3/4 master women can race with master men up to 20 years older."
>
> Any 1-2 woman can race in the Pro 1-2 field. Or, any 1-2-3 woman can race
> in the Men 3-4-5 field, etc.
>
> I'm not saying this addresses the concern, just wanted to share it since
> it is related to the topic.
>
> -brian
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 4:10 PM, Heather Johnson via OBRA <
> obra@list.obra.org> wrote:
>
> Can anyone please explain to me the prize list for King's Valley Road
> Race? Because I find it beyond perplexing/insulting that the novice men
> have a better payout than the 1/2/3 women. Not to mention that the P/1/2
> men are receiving almost 300% what the 1/2/3 women are. Holy pay gap
> batman.
>
> Pro-1-2 75 Miles $775 8 Deep
> Masters 40-49 (Cat 3, 4, & 5) 56 Miles $265 6 Deep
> Men Cat 3-4-5 * 56 Miles $325 6 Deep
> Masters 50+/60+ (Cat 3, 4, & 5) 56 Miles $260 3/3 Deep
> Women Cat 1-2-3** 56 Miles $265 3 Deep*
> Women Cat 4-5 & 40+ Cat 3, 4 & 5** 37 Miles $110 3 Deep **
>
> This seems like a good strategy if you want women to boycott, but
> otherwise? Not so much.
>
> Heather Johnson
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Salvatore Collura

You’re right Brad, it is happening, and races are disappearing and future promoters will have to take losses to put on events. But, at least the prizes will be equal.

Heather, pointing out that the KVRR flyer has no sponsors on it is hilarious. Have you ever tried to put on a race? The joke here is that you don’t realize that with no sponsorship dollars, the promoter is putting his neck out there financially so that YOU can race your bike.

Elizabeth, show me the “institutional hoops” that make a men’s race 10mph faster than a women’s race.

And before you call me a sexist please remember that I started a women’s-only criterium series and took a financial loss to do it. I also added a women’s race to my Twilight series when we already had a really tight schedule and lost money on that as well. People, I encourage you to use your brains to think. Bike racing is in trouble, that should be our only agenda.

-sal

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 21, 2018, at 10:39 PM, Ron > wrote:

Brad, "Equal" and "Fair" are not the same thing. Something can be equal without being fair, and vice-versa.

Aaron, I challenge you to sit in an official's car behind every field at a road race and tell me that all of them are just as exciting as the others. They might all be working equally hard. They are not all equally exciting. Note this comment is age and gender neutral - decide for yourself which is which.

Heather, Maybe it's not discrimination. Maybe it's economics. Last year, they offered $525 and got 19 Cat 1/2/3 women. The field probably didn't pay for itself. Your other argument is that, if women can't support a larger purse, then no one should get one? And that will make it fair?

I believe promoters will and have supported ideas that target growing women's participation. I just don't think equal payouts are a difference maker. Focus your effort on how to promote and organize events in a way that encourage women's participation. Women's Prestige Series and PNWC are about improving racing opportunities and experiences, not about demanding equal payouts.

________________________________
From: OBRA > on behalf of Salvatore Collura via OBRA >
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2018 8:43 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] KVRR

You have no “right” to equal payout. Earn it. Make women’s bicycle racing the most exciting sport on the planet and it will pay for itself. It’s bullying because it’s your opinion being forced on someone else. I think Juniors and Cat 4/5s should get the best prizes because they are the future of the sport. I would never “put a race on notice” to force my personal viewpoint.

-sal

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 21, 2018, at 8:32 PM, Heather Johnson > wrote:

Sal this race has been put on notice for several years now that both men and women view this as a discriminatory practice. In addition to which they've made the payouts considerably more unequal this year than previous years. They're going backwards. "Being grateful there's a race" is not an excuse. If it's really such a problem for them hearing about this they could simply choose to eliminate the payout and put the registration money towards running the race/making a profit. Which would be fine. This isn't bullying, this is pointing out a discriminatory practice that is viewed as a significant factor in why we have such a difficult time getting women to stay in the sport. Being told to be grateful there's a women's field just reeks of sexism.

Heather Johnson
heatherjpdx@gmail.com
503-808-0616

On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 7:41 PM, Salvatore Collura via OBRA > wrote:
I can’t tell if y’all are serious. How about being happy there is a KVRR? And even happier that is has women’s categories?
Or, you could bully one of the few remaining promoters over prize distribution.

-sal

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 21, 2018, at 7:20 PM, Brian List via OBRA > wrote:

Just in case everyone isn't aware, I want to point out that "Men's" races are not gender restricted. Per rule 6.6.2:

"6.6.2 Women - Women may enter any race for which they are eligible by age, category, and any performance requirements and may enter categorized races for men that are up to one category lower than their women’s category, or in the case of category 1 women, up to two categories lower. Category 1/2 master women can race with master men up to 10 years older and Category 3/4 master women can race with master men up to 20 years older."

Any 1-2 woman can race in the Pro 1-2 field. Or, any 1-2-3 woman can race in the Men 3-4-5 field, etc.

I'm not saying this addresses the concern, just wanted to share it since it is related to the topic.

-brian

On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 4:10 PM, Heather Johnson via OBRA > wrote:
Can anyone please explain to me the prize list for King's Valley Road Race? Because I find it beyond perplexing/insulting that the novice men have a better payout than the 1/2/3 women. Not to mention that the P/1/2 men are receiving almost 300% what the 1/2/3 women are. Holy pay gap batman.

Pro-1-2 75 Miles $775 8 Deep
Masters 40-49 (Cat 3, 4, & 5) 56 Miles $265 6 Deep
Men Cat 3-4-5 * 56 Miles $325 6 Deep
Masters 50+/60+ (Cat 3, 4, & 5) 56 Miles $260 3/3 Deep
Women Cat 1-2-3** 56 Miles $265 3 Deep*
Women Cat 4-5 & 40+ Cat 3, 4 & 5** 37 Miles $110 3 Deep **

This seems like a good strategy if you want women to boycott, but otherwise? Not so much.

Heather Johnson

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
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obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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Matt

Is this starting again?
I think there is a level of absurdity in anyone complaining to a promoter about putting on a race that there are not enough prizes. Go take Econ 101 and this will all make sense.
For anyone who is perplexed or confused about the amount or distribution of prizes is free to send their own money to the promoter to rectify the situation, or recruit sponsors on behalf of the promoter to provide more prizes, or promote their own race and provide whatever prizes they care to.

Kings Valley is a great race, with very generous prizes, there is no reason to complain about anything. For anyone complaining, there is a color bubble princess 5K fun run somewhere that is probably a better fit.

Ron

Brad, "Equal" and "Fair" are not the same thing. Something can be equal without being fair, and vice-versa.

Aaron, I challenge you to sit in an official's car behind every field at a road race and tell me that all of them are just as exciting as the others. They might all be working equally hard. They are not all equally exciting. Note this comment is age and gender neutral - decide for yourself which is which.

Heather, Maybe it's not discrimination. Maybe it's economics. Last year, they offered $525 and got 19 Cat 1/2/3 women. The field probably didn't pay for itself. Your other argument is that, if women can't support a larger purse, then no one should get one? And that will make it fair?

I believe promoters will and have supported ideas that target growing women's participation. I just don't think equal payouts are a difference maker. Focus your effort on how to promote and organize events in a way that encourage women's participation. Women's Prestige Series and PNWC are about improving racing opportunities and experiences, not about demanding equal payouts.

________________________________
From: OBRA on behalf of Salvatore Collura via OBRA
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2018 8:43 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] KVRR

You have no “right” to equal payout. Earn it. Make women’s bicycle racing the most exciting sport on the planet and it will pay for itself. It’s bullying because it’s your opinion being forced on someone else. I think Juniors and Cat 4/5s should get the best prizes because they are the future of the sport. I would never “put a race on notice” to force my personal viewpoint.

-sal

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 21, 2018, at 8:32 PM, Heather Johnson > wrote:

Sal this race has been put on notice for several years now that both men and women view this as a discriminatory practice. In addition to which they've made the payouts considerably more unequal this year than previous years. They're going backwards. "Being grateful there's a race" is not an excuse. If it's really such a problem for them hearing about this they could simply choose to eliminate the payout and put the registration money towards running the race/making a profit. Which would be fine. This isn't bullying, this is pointing out a discriminatory practice that is viewed as a significant factor in why we have such a difficult time getting women to stay in the sport. Being told to be grateful there's a women's field just reeks of sexism.

Heather Johnson
heatherjpdx@gmail.com
503-808-0616

On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 7:41 PM, Salvatore Collura via OBRA > wrote:
I can’t tell if y’all are serious. How about being happy there is a KVRR? And even happier that is has women’s categories?
Or, you could bully one of the few remaining promoters over prize distribution.

-sal

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 21, 2018, at 7:20 PM, Brian List via OBRA > wrote:

Just in case everyone isn't aware, I want to point out that "Men's" races are not gender restricted. Per rule 6.6.2:

"6.6.2 Women - Women may enter any race for which they are eligible by age, category, and any performance requirements and may enter categorized races for men that are up to one category lower than their women’s category, or in the case of category 1 women, up to two categories lower. Category 1/2 master women can race with master men up to 10 years older and Category 3/4 master women can race with master men up to 20 years older."

Any 1-2 woman can race in the Pro 1-2 field. Or, any 1-2-3 woman can race in the Men 3-4-5 field, etc.

I'm not saying this addresses the concern, just wanted to share it since it is related to the topic.

-brian

On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 4:10 PM, Heather Johnson via OBRA > wrote:
Can anyone please explain to me the prize list for King's Valley Road Race? Because I find it beyond perplexing/insulting that the novice men have a better payout than the 1/2/3 women. Not to mention that the P/1/2 men are receiving almost 300% what the 1/2/3 women are. Holy pay gap batman.

Pro-1-2 75 Miles $775 8 Deep
Masters 40-49 (Cat 3, 4, & 5) 56 Miles $265 6 Deep
Men Cat 3-4-5 * 56 Miles $325 6 Deep
Masters 50+/60+ (Cat 3, 4, & 5) 56 Miles $260 3/3 Deep
Women Cat 1-2-3** 56 Miles $265 3 Deep*
Women Cat 4-5 & 40+ Cat 3, 4 & 5** 37 Miles $110 3 Deep **

This seems like a good strategy if you want women to boycott, but otherwise? Not so much.

Heather Johnson

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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Robert Burney

This is a lot of speculation and complaining. Why not wait for the promoter to explain why the prizes were allocated this way, and then comment?

I recall reading on OBRA of at least one other race that offered equal prize lists within the last 2 years, and very few women attended the race. If I remember correctly, not enough women attended to race to claim the full prize list.

I feel that we should all try to get the facts and the reasons that led to the promoter’s actions before all this public discussion.
Robert

[cid:image001.png@01D0A1EC.0AD66180]
Robert Burney, JD
o: 503-608-7813
f: 503-210-1595
c: 503-502-4289
www.IntegrityFinancialpdx.com

Brokerage of Life Insurance, Annuities, Long Term Care and Disability Insurance.

10445 SW Canyon Rd., Suite 101
Beaverton, OR 97005

From: OBRA On Behalf Of Brad Davidson via OBRA
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2018 9:37 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] KVRR

Man, I really thought we were past the point in history where people would whine about 'bullying' when someone asks for fair and equal treatment. Maybe the best we can hope for is that the 'remaining promoters' that feel this way are all forced to fold up shop, making space for those with more modern viewpoints. Could be we're already seeing that happen.
-Brad

On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 7:41 PM, Salvatore Collura via OBRA > wrote:
I can’t tell if y’all are serious. How about being happy there is a KVRR? And even happier that is has women’s categories?
Or, you could bully one of the few remaining promoters over prize distribution.

-sal

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 21, 2018, at 7:20 PM, Brian List via OBRA > wrote:
Just in case everyone isn't aware, I want to point out that "Men's" races are not gender restricted. Per rule 6.6.2:

"6.6.2 Women - Women may enter any race for which they are eligible by age, category, and any performance requirements and may enter categorized races for men that are up to one category lower than their women’s category, or in the case of category 1 women, up to two categories lower. Category 1/2 master women can race with master men up to 10 years older and Category 3/4 master women can race with master men up to 20 years older."

Any 1-2 woman can race in the Pro 1-2 field. Or, any 1-2-3 woman can race in the Men 3-4-5 field, etc.

I'm not saying this addresses the concern, just wanted to share it since it is related to the topic.

-brian

On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 4:10 PM, Heather Johnson via OBRA > wrote:
Can anyone please explain to me the prize list for King's Valley Road Race? Because I find it beyond perplexing/insulting that the novice men have a better payout than the 1/2/3 women. Not to mention that the P/1/2 men are receiving almost 300% what the 1/2/3 women are. Holy pay gap batman.

Pro-1-2 75 Miles $775 8 Deep
Masters 40-49 (Cat 3, 4, & 5) 56 Miles $265 6 Deep
Men Cat 3-4-5 * 56 Miles $325 6 Deep
Masters 50+/60+ (Cat 3, 4, & 5) 56 Miles $260 3/3 Deep
Women Cat 1-2-3** 56 Miles $265 3 Deep*
Women Cat 4-5 & 40+ Cat 3, 4 & 5** 37 Miles $110 3 Deep **

This seems like a good strategy if you want women to boycott, but otherwise? Not so much.

Heather Johnson

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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Aaron Anderson

This reply is probably just shouting into the internet, but its hard to read a comment like Sal's about women needing to "earn" equal payouts and not respond. Women's racing is just as exciting as men's racing, the athletes are pushing themselves just as hard. To say they haven't "earned" their victories as much as men is simply wrong. Beyond this, organized racing for women (in all racing sports) is relatively young, so why not rectify this by making a point to support and encourage women's racing? Also - equality is not a personal viewpoint.

Finally argument that its more important to support Cat 5 men than Elite women is frankly laughable. This is a fun hobby for 99% of us.

Brad Davidson

Man, I really thought we were past the point in history where people would
whine about 'bullying' when someone asks for fair and equal treatment.
Maybe the best we can hope for is that the 'remaining promoters' that feel
this way are all forced to fold up shop, making space for those with more
modern viewpoints. Could be we're already seeing that happen.

-Brad

On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 7:41 PM, Salvatore Collura via OBRA <
obra@list.obra.org> wrote:

> I can’t tell if y’all are serious. How about being happy there is a KVRR?
> And even happier that is has women’s categories?
> Or, you could bully one of the few remaining promoters over prize
> distribution.
>
> -sal
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 21, 2018, at 7:20 PM, Brian List via OBRA
> wrote:
>
> Just in case everyone isn't aware, I want to point out that "Men's" races
> are not gender restricted. Per rule 6.6.2:
>
> "6.6.2 Women - Women may enter any race for which they are eligible by
> age, category, and any performance requirements and may enter categorized
> races for men that are up to one category lower than their women’s
> category, or in the case of category 1 women, up to two categories lower.
> Category 1/2 master women can race with master men up to 10 years older and
> Category 3/4 master women can race with master men up to 20 years older."
>
> Any 1-2 woman can race in the Pro 1-2 field. Or, any 1-2-3 woman can race
> in the Men 3-4-5 field, etc.
>
> I'm not saying this addresses the concern, just wanted to share it since
> it is related to the topic.
>
> -brian
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 4:10 PM, Heather Johnson via OBRA <
> obra@list.obra.org> wrote:
>
>> Can anyone please explain to me the prize list for King's Valley Road
>> Race? Because I find it beyond perplexing/insulting that the novice men
>> have a better payout than the 1/2/3 women. Not to mention that the P/1/2
>> men are receiving almost 300% what the 1/2/3 women are. Holy pay gap
>> batman.
>>
>> Pro-1-2 75 Miles $775 8 Deep
>> Masters 40-49 (Cat 3, 4, & 5) 56 Miles $265 6 Deep
>> Men Cat 3-4-5 * 56 Miles $325 6 Deep
>> Masters 50+/60+ (Cat 3, 4, & 5) 56 Miles $260 3/3 Deep
>> Women Cat 1-2-3** 56 Miles $265 3 Deep*
>> Women Cat 4-5 & 40+ Cat 3, 4 & 5** 37 Miles $110 3 Deep **
>>
>> This seems like a good strategy if you want women to boycott, but
>> otherwise? Not so much.
>>
>> Heather Johnson
>>
>>
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>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
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Salvatore Collura

You have no “right” to equal payout. Earn it. Make women’s bicycle racing the most exciting sport on the planet and it will pay for itself. It’s bullying because it’s your opinion being forced on someone else. I think Juniors and Cat 4/5s should get the best prizes because they are the future of the sport. I would never “put a race on notice” to force my personal viewpoint.

-sal

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 21, 2018, at 8:32 PM, Heather Johnson > wrote:

Sal this race has been put on notice for several years now that both men and women view this as a discriminatory practice. In addition to which they've made the payouts considerably more unequal this year than previous years. They're going backwards. "Being grateful there's a race" is not an excuse. If it's really such a problem for them hearing about this they could simply choose to eliminate the payout and put the registration money towards running the race/making a profit. Which would be fine. This isn't bullying, this is pointing out a discriminatory practice that is viewed as a significant factor in why we have such a difficult time getting women to stay in the sport. Being told to be grateful there's a women's field just reeks of sexism.

Heather Johnson
heatherjpdx@gmail.com
503-808-0616

On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 7:41 PM, Salvatore Collura via OBRA > wrote:
I can’t tell if y’all are serious. How about being happy there is a KVRR? And even happier that is has women’s categories?
Or, you could bully one of the few remaining promoters over prize distribution.

-sal

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 21, 2018, at 7:20 PM, Brian List via OBRA > wrote:

Just in case everyone isn't aware, I want to point out that "Men's" races are not gender restricted. Per rule 6.6.2:

"6.6.2 Women - Women may enter any race for which they are eligible by age, category, and any performance requirements and may enter categorized races for men that are up to one category lower than their women’s category, or in the case of category 1 women, up to two categories lower. Category 1/2 master women can race with master men up to 10 years older and Category 3/4 master women can race with master men up to 20 years older."

Any 1-2 woman can race in the Pro 1-2 field. Or, any 1-2-3 woman can race in the Men 3-4-5 field, etc.

I'm not saying this addresses the concern, just wanted to share it since it is related to the topic.

-brian

On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 4:10 PM, Heather Johnson via OBRA > wrote:
Can anyone please explain to me the prize list for King's Valley Road Race? Because I find it beyond perplexing/insulting that the novice men have a better payout than the 1/2/3 women. Not to mention that the P/1/2 men are receiving almost 300% what the 1/2/3 women are. Holy pay gap batman.

Pro-1-2 75 Miles $775 8 Deep
Masters 40-49 (Cat 3, 4, & 5) 56 Miles $265 6 Deep
Men Cat 3-4-5 * 56 Miles $325 6 Deep
Masters 50+/60+ (Cat 3, 4, & 5) 56 Miles $260 3/3 Deep
Women Cat 1-2-3** 56 Miles $265 3 Deep*
Women Cat 4-5 & 40+ Cat 3, 4 & 5** 37 Miles $110 3 Deep **

This seems like a good strategy if you want women to boycott, but otherwise? Not so much.

Heather Johnson

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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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Dan Anderson

Why do Cat 3-4-5 racers get cash prizes at all?  Your prize for winning should be upgrade points, that's all.  Kick that cash up to the Cat 1-2-3 women.  You should be racing for the love of racing, or whatever it is you think Cat 1-2-3 women should be racing for, since you don't think prize money is important.
Dan

On Wednesday, March 21, 2018, 4:14:40 PM PDT, Heather Johnson via OBRA wrote:

Can anyone please explain to me the prize list for King's Valley Road Race? Because I find it beyond perplexing/insulting that the novice men have a better payout than the 1/2/3 women. Not to mention that the P/1/2 men are receiving almost 300% what the 1/2/3 women are. Holy pay gap batman.
Pro-1-2 75 Miles $775 8 Deep Masters 40-49 (Cat 3, 4, & 5) 56 Miles $265 6 Deep Men Cat 3-4-5 * 56 Miles $325 6 Deep Masters 50+/60+ (Cat 3, 4, & 5) 56 Miles $260 3/3 Deep Women Cat 1-2-3** 56 Miles $265 3 Deep* Women Cat 4-5 & 40+ Cat 3, 4 & 5** 37 Miles $110 3 Deep ** 
This seems like a good strategy if you want women to boycott, but otherwise? Not so much.
Heather Johnson
_______________________________________________
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obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Salvatore Collura

I can’t tell if y’all are serious. How about being happy there is a KVRR? And even happier that is has women’s categories?
Or, you could bully one of the few remaining promoters over prize distribution.

-sal

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 21, 2018, at 7:20 PM, Brian List via OBRA > wrote:

Just in case everyone isn't aware, I want to point out that "Men's" races are not gender restricted. Per rule 6.6.2:

"6.6.2 Women - Women may enter any race for which they are eligible by age, category, and any performance requirements and may enter categorized races for men that are up to one category lower than their women’s category, or in the case of category 1 women, up to two categories lower. Category 1/2 master women can race with master men up to 10 years older and Category 3/4 master women can race with master men up to 20 years older."

Any 1-2 woman can race in the Pro 1-2 field. Or, any 1-2-3 woman can race in the Men 3-4-5 field, etc.

I'm not saying this addresses the concern, just wanted to share it since it is related to the topic.

-brian

On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 4:10 PM, Heather Johnson via OBRA > wrote:
Can anyone please explain to me the prize list for King's Valley Road Race? Because I find it beyond perplexing/insulting that the novice men have a better payout than the 1/2/3 women. Not to mention that the P/1/2 men are receiving almost 300% what the 1/2/3 women are. Holy pay gap batman.

Pro-1-2 75 Miles $775 8 Deep
Masters 40-49 (Cat 3, 4, & 5) 56 Miles $265 6 Deep
Men Cat 3-4-5 * 56 Miles $325 6 Deep
Masters 50+/60+ (Cat 3, 4, & 5) 56 Miles $260 3/3 Deep
Women Cat 1-2-3** 56 Miles $265 3 Deep*
Women Cat 4-5 & 40+ Cat 3, 4 & 5** 37 Miles $110 3 Deep **

This seems like a good strategy if you want women to boycott, but otherwise? Not so much.

Heather Johnson

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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Brian List

Just in case everyone isn't aware, I want to point out that "Men's" races
are not gender restricted. Per rule 6.6.2:

"6.6.2 Women - Women may enter any race for which they are eligible by age,
category, and any performance requirements and may enter categorized races
for men that are up to one category lower than their women’s category, or
in the case of category 1 women, up to two categories lower. Category 1/2
master women can race with master men up to 10 years older and Category 3/4
master women can race with master men up to 20 years older."

Any 1-2 woman can race in the Pro 1-2 field. Or, any 1-2-3 woman can race
in the Men 3-4-5 field, etc.

I'm not saying this addresses the concern, just wanted to share it since it
is related to the topic.

-brian

On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 4:10 PM, Heather Johnson via OBRA <
obra@list.obra.org> wrote:

> Can anyone please explain to me the prize list for King's Valley Road
> Race? Because I find it beyond perplexing/insulting that the novice men
> have a better payout than the 1/2/3 women. Not to mention that the P/1/2
> men are receiving almost 300% what the 1/2/3 women are. Holy pay gap batman.
>
> Pro-1-2 75 Miles $775 8 Deep
> Masters 40-49 (Cat 3, 4, & 5) 56 Miles $265 6 Deep
> Men Cat 3-4-5 * 56 Miles $325 6 Deep
> Masters 50+/60+ (Cat 3, 4, & 5) 56 Miles $260 3/3 Deep
> Women Cat 1-2-3** 56 Miles $265 3 Deep*
> Women Cat 4-5 & 40+ Cat 3, 4 & 5** 37 Miles $110 3 Deep **
>
> This seems like a good strategy if you want women to boycott, but
> otherwise? Not so much.
>
> Heather Johnson
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

Brad Davidson

It's not about the money. It's about recognizing people equally. What if
the men's fields got a 5-step podium and the women only got 3? Or would you
complain that if people are only competing for the win they should just
stay home? If you want to take that attitude about it then why are you
posting on a forum for people who want to *race* their bikes?

People make excuses by pointing at the smaller women's field sizes, which
is a cop-out. Of course they're going to be smaller when you put your thumb
on the scale by not even pretending to reward folks equally for their
accomplishments.

-Brad

On Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 17:36 Adams, Mike wrote:

> Agreed all should be equal, or is that life should be equal, but if the
> only reason you are racing is this small amount of monetary gain, then
> don’t go stay home and go for a ”training ride”. I raced for quite a few
> years and only did it for the trill, team, riding bar to bar-shoulder to
> shoulder with others and corner marshals, they even stopped traffic when I
> was dropped over and over, how much fun is that, are we having fun yet.
> When the money is the only reason than don’t go!
>
>
>
> Mike Adams
>
>
>
> *From:* OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] *On Behalf Of *Brad
> Davidson via OBRA
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 21, 2018 5:13 PM
> *To:* Obra
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] KVRR
>
>
>
> That said - I can't find that language anywhere except for the proposed
> changes for 2018. It appears that none of the documents on the website
> (racing rules, promoter agreement, etc) have been updated for 2018 yet.
>
>
>
> Hopefully someone can show me why I'm wrong.
>
>
>
> -Brad
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 17:08 Brad Davidson wrote:
>
> Sure doesn't seem to comply with the OBRA prize rules...
>
>
>
> > J. Event Organizer Responsibilities
>
> >
>
> > J.7. The event organizer shall evenly divide prizes for each category
> between the Men’s and Women’s fields. Including but not limited to, cash,
> gift certificates, and product.
>
> >
>
> > J.7.a Equal prize distribution shall be enforced if there is a field
> category differential. As an example, where there is a separate Category 3
> field for the Men, but Women are combined Category 1/2/3, the Category 3
> Women’s prizes shall be combined with the Category 1/2 Women’s prizes. The
> organizer shall have discretion as to whether combined fields will be
> prized separately.
>
>
>
> -Brad
>
>
>
> On Mar 21, 2018 16:45, "Matt Ritzow via OBRA" wrote:
>
> I believe it is because it is based, at least in part, on registrations. I
> think only 10 to 15 women showed up 1/2 field last year.
>
> Matt.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 4:10 PM, Heather Johnson via OBRA <
> obra@list.obra.org> wrote:
>
> Can anyone please explain to me the prize list for King's Valley Road
> Race? Because I find it beyond perplexing/insulting that the novice men
> have a better payout than the 1/2/3 women. Not to mention that the P/1/2
> men are receiving almost 300% what the 1/2/3 women are. Holy pay gap batman.
>
>
>
> Pro-1-2 75 Miles $775 8 Deep
>
> Masters 40-49 (Cat 3, 4, & 5) 56 Miles $265 6 Deep
>
> Men Cat 3-4-5 * 56 Miles $325 6 Deep
>
> Masters 50+/60+ (Cat 3, 4, & 5) 56 Miles $260 3/3 Deep
>
> Women Cat 1-2-3** 56 Miles $265 3 Deep*
>
> Women Cat 4-5 & 40+ Cat 3, 4 & 5** 37 Miles $110 3 Deep **
>
>
>
> This seems like a good strategy if you want women to boycott, but
> otherwise? Not so much.
>
>
> Heather Johnson
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Matt Ritzow
>
> General Manager/Partner Owner
> Bicycle Way of Life Inc.
> 556 Charnelton St.
> Eugene, Or. 97401
> 541-393-0147
> 541-344-4105
>
> @bwol_racing
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
>
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message is for intended addressee(s) only and
> may contain information that is confidential, privileged or otherwise
> exempt from disclosure under applicable law.
>

Leibowitz, Flora Lynn

That’s a pretty good turnout these days for OBRA women 1-2. I’ve been in 4/5 races in the last several years that drew about that.

From: OBRA On Behalf Of Matt Ritzow via OBRA
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2018 4:33 PM
To: Heather Johnson
Cc: obra
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] KVRR

I believe it is because it is based, at least in part, on registrations. I think only 10 to 15 women showed up 1/2 field last year.
Matt.

On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 4:10 PM, Heather Johnson via OBRA > wrote:
Can anyone please explain to me the prize list for King's Valley Road Race? Because I find it beyond perplexing/insulting that the novice men have a better payout than the 1/2/3 women. Not to mention that the P/1/2 men are receiving almost 300% what the 1/2/3 women are. Holy pay gap batman.

Pro-1-2 75 Miles $775 8 Deep
Masters 40-49 (Cat 3, 4, & 5) 56 Miles $265 6 Deep
Men Cat 3-4-5 * 56 Miles $325 6 Deep
Masters 50+/60+ (Cat 3, 4, & 5) 56 Miles $260 3/3 Deep
Women Cat 1-2-3** 56 Miles $265 3 Deep*
Women Cat 4-5 & 40+ Cat 3, 4 & 5** 37 Miles $110 3 Deep **

This seems like a good strategy if you want women to boycott, but otherwise? Not so much.

Heather Johnson

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

--
Matt Ritzow
General Manager/Partner Owner
Bicycle Way of Life Inc.
556 Charnelton St.
Eugene, Or. 97401
541-393-0147
541-344-4105
[cid:image001.png@01D100F8.B02550E0] @bwol_racing

Brad Davidson

That said - I can't find that language anywhere except for the proposed
changes for 2018. It appears that none of the documents on the website
(racing rules, promoter agreement, etc) have been updated for 2018 yet.

Hopefully someone can show me why I'm wrong.

-Brad

On Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 17:08 Brad Davidson wrote:

> Sure doesn't seem to comply with the OBRA prize rules...
>
> > J. Event Organizer Responsibilities
> >
> > J.7. The event organizer shall evenly divide prizes for each category
> between the Men’s and Women’s fields. Including but not limited to, cash,
> gift certificates, and product.
> >
> > J.7.a Equal prize distribution shall be enforced if there is a field
> category differential. As an example, where there is a separate Category 3
> field for the Men, but Women are combined Category 1/2/3, the Category 3
> Women’s prizes shall be combined with the Category 1/2 Women’s prizes. The
> organizer shall have discretion as to whether combined fields will be
> prized separately.
>
> -Brad
>
> On Mar 21, 2018 16:45, "Matt Ritzow via OBRA" wrote:
>
> I believe it is because it is based, at least in part, on registrations. I
> think only 10 to 15 women showed up 1/2 field last year.
> Matt.
>
> On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 4:10 PM, Heather Johnson via OBRA <
> obra@list.obra.org> wrote:
>
>> Can anyone please explain to me the prize list for King's Valley Road
>> Race? Because I find it beyond perplexing/insulting that the novice men
>> have a better payout than the 1/2/3 women. Not to mention that the P/1/2
>> men are receiving almost 300% what the 1/2/3 women are. Holy pay gap batman.
>>
>> Pro-1-2 75 Miles $775 8 Deep
>> Masters 40-49 (Cat 3, 4, & 5) 56 Miles $265 6 Deep
>> Men Cat 3-4-5 * 56 Miles $325 6 Deep
>> Masters 50+/60+ (Cat 3, 4, & 5) 56 Miles $260 3/3 Deep
>> Women Cat 1-2-3** 56 Miles $265 3 Deep*
>> Women Cat 4-5 & 40+ Cat 3, 4 & 5** 37 Miles $110 3 Deep **
>>
>> This seems like a good strategy if you want women to boycott, but
>> otherwise? Not so much.
>>
>> Heather Johnson
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Matt Ritzow
> General Manager/Partner Owner
> Bicycle Way of Life Inc.
> 556 Charnelton St.
> Eugene, Or. 97401
> 541-393-0147
> 541-344-4105
> [image: cid:image001.png@01D100F8.B02550E0] @bwol_racing
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>

Steven Beardsley

No such rule was passed. Kenji brought it up for discussion at the meeting,
but also said that any rule governing prize payout would be an admin rule
that would be implemented by the ED and/or Board.

On Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 4:45 PM Hazel Gross via OBRA
wrote:

> There was a rule passed at the annual meeting about equal payout so this
> shouldn't be allowed to happen...
>
> On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 4:10 PM, Heather Johnson via OBRA <
> obra@list.obra.org> wrote:
>
>> Can anyone please explain to me the prize list for King's Valley Road
>> Race? Because I find it beyond perplexing/insulting that the novice men
>> have a better payout than the 1/2/3 women. Not to mention that the P/1/2
>> men are receiving almost 300% what the 1/2/3 women are. Holy pay gap batman.
>>
>> Pro-1-2 75 Miles $775 8 Deep
>> Masters 40-49 (Cat 3, 4, & 5) 56 Miles $265 6 Deep
>> Men Cat 3-4-5 * 56 Miles $325 6 Deep
>> Masters 50+/60+ (Cat 3, 4, & 5) 56 Miles $260 3/3 Deep
>> Women Cat 1-2-3** 56 Miles $265 3 Deep*
>> Women Cat 4-5 & 40+ Cat 3, 4 & 5** 37 Miles $110 3 Deep **
>>
>> This seems like a good strategy if you want women to boycott, but
>> otherwise? Not so much.
>>
>> Heather Johnson
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Brad Davidson

Sure doesn't seem to comply with the OBRA prize rules...

> J. Event Organizer Responsibilities
>
> J.7. The event organizer shall evenly divide prizes for each category
between the Men’s and Women’s fields. Including but not limited to, cash,
gift certificates, and product.
>
> J.7.a Equal prize distribution shall be enforced if there is a field
category differential. As an example, where there is a separate Category 3
field for the Men, but Women are combined Category 1/2/3, the Category 3
Women’s prizes shall be combined with the Category 1/2 Women’s prizes. The
organizer shall have discretion as to whether combined fields will be
prized separately.

-Brad

On Mar 21, 2018 16:45, "Matt Ritzow via OBRA" wrote:

I believe it is because it is based, at least in part, on registrations. I
think only 10 to 15 women showed up 1/2 field last year.
Matt.

On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 4:10 PM, Heather Johnson via OBRA <
obra@list.obra.org> wrote:

> Can anyone please explain to me the prize list for King's Valley Road
> Race? Because I find it beyond perplexing/insulting that the novice men
> have a better payout than the 1/2/3 women. Not to mention that the P/1/2
> men are receiving almost 300% what the 1/2/3 women are. Holy pay gap batman.
>
> Pro-1-2 75 Miles $775 8 Deep
> Masters 40-49 (Cat 3, 4, & 5) 56 Miles $265 6 Deep
> Men Cat 3-4-5 * 56 Miles $325 6 Deep
> Masters 50+/60+ (Cat 3, 4, & 5) 56 Miles $260 3/3 Deep
> Women Cat 1-2-3** 56 Miles $265 3 Deep*
> Women Cat 4-5 & 40+ Cat 3, 4 & 5** 37 Miles $110 3 Deep **
>
> This seems like a good strategy if you want women to boycott, but
> otherwise? Not so much.
>
> Heather Johnson
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

--
Matt Ritzow
General Manager/Partner Owner
Bicycle Way of Life Inc.
556 Charnelton St.
Eugene, Or. 97401
541-393-0147
541-344-4105
[image: cid:image001.png@01D100F8.B02550E0] @bwol_racing

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Matt Ritzow

I believe it is because it is based, at least in part, on registrations. I
think only 10 to 15 women showed up 1/2 field last year.
Matt.

On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 4:10 PM, Heather Johnson via OBRA <
obra@list.obra.org> wrote:

> Can anyone please explain to me the prize list for King's Valley Road
> Race? Because I find it beyond perplexing/insulting that the novice men
> have a better payout than the 1/2/3 women. Not to mention that the P/1/2
> men are receiving almost 300% what the 1/2/3 women are. Holy pay gap batman.
>
> Pro-1-2 75 Miles $775 8 Deep
> Masters 40-49 (Cat 3, 4, & 5) 56 Miles $265 6 Deep
> Men Cat 3-4-5 * 56 Miles $325 6 Deep
> Masters 50+/60+ (Cat 3, 4, & 5) 56 Miles $260 3/3 Deep
> Women Cat 1-2-3** 56 Miles $265 3 Deep*
> Women Cat 4-5 & 40+ Cat 3, 4 & 5** 37 Miles $110 3 Deep **
>
> This seems like a good strategy if you want women to boycott, but
> otherwise? Not so much.
>
> Heather Johnson
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

--
Matt Ritzow
General Manager/Partner Owner
Bicycle Way of Life Inc.
556 Charnelton St.
Eugene, Or. 97401
541-393-0147
541-344-4105
[image: cid:image001.png@01D100F8.B02550E0] @bwol_racing

Hazel Gross

There was a rule passed at the annual meeting about equal payout so this
shouldn't be allowed to happen...

On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 4:10 PM, Heather Johnson via OBRA <
obra@list.obra.org> wrote:

> Can anyone please explain to me the prize list for King's Valley Road
> Race? Because I find it beyond perplexing/insulting that the novice men
> have a better payout than the 1/2/3 women. Not to mention that the P/1/2
> men are receiving almost 300% what the 1/2/3 women are. Holy pay gap batman.
>
> Pro-1-2 75 Miles $775 8 Deep
> Masters 40-49 (Cat 3, 4, & 5) 56 Miles $265 6 Deep
> Men Cat 3-4-5 * 56 Miles $325 6 Deep
> Masters 50+/60+ (Cat 3, 4, & 5) 56 Miles $260 3/3 Deep
> Women Cat 1-2-3** 56 Miles $265 3 Deep*
> Women Cat 4-5 & 40+ Cat 3, 4 & 5** 37 Miles $110 3 Deep **
>
> This seems like a good strategy if you want women to boycott, but
> otherwise? Not so much.
>
> Heather Johnson
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

Matt Martel

Why dont you ask the promoter? His information is right on the flyer you
were looking at when you copied the prize list. Scott Goldstein.
KingsValleyRR@gmail.com (541) 359-9007

Matt Martel

On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 4:10 PM, Heather Johnson via OBRA <
obra@list.obra.org> wrote:

> Can anyone please explain to me the prize list for King's Valley Road
> Race? Because I find it beyond perplexing/insulting that the novice men
> have a better payout than the 1/2/3 women. Not to mention that the P/1/2
> men are receiving almost 300% what the 1/2/3 women are. Holy pay gap batman.
>
> Pro-1-2 75 Miles $775 8 Deep
> Masters 40-49 (Cat 3, 4, & 5) 56 Miles $265 6 Deep
> Men Cat 3-4-5 * 56 Miles $325 6 Deep
> Masters 50+/60+ (Cat 3, 4, & 5) 56 Miles $260 3/3 Deep
> Women Cat 1-2-3** 56 Miles $265 3 Deep*
> Women Cat 4-5 & 40+ Cat 3, 4 & 5** 37 Miles $110 3 Deep **
>
> This seems like a good strategy if you want women to boycott, but
> otherwise? Not so much.
>
> Heather Johnson
>
>
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Heather Johnson

Can anyone please explain to me the prize list for King's Valley Road Race?
Because I find it beyond perplexing/insulting that the novice men have a
better payout than the 1/2/3 women. Not to mention that the P/1/2 men are
receiving almost 300% what the 1/2/3 women are. Holy pay gap batman.

Pro-1-2 75 Miles $775 8 Deep
Masters 40-49 (Cat 3, 4, & 5) 56 Miles $265 6 Deep
Men Cat 3-4-5 * 56 Miles $325 6 Deep
Masters 50+/60+ (Cat 3, 4, & 5) 56 Miles $260 3/3 Deep
Women Cat 1-2-3** 56 Miles $265 3 Deep*
Women Cat 4-5 & 40+ Cat 3, 4 & 5** 37 Miles $110 3 Deep **

This seems like a good strategy if you want women to boycott, but
otherwise? Not so much.

Heather Johnson

T. Kenji Sugahara

Thanks Scott, officials, everyone for a great King's Valley RR!

The weather was beautiful, the course excellent as usual.

Congrats to all the finishers!

I have the top four from each category posted with some pictures.
(Of course not the quality of Bill, Shane, Tim or others' photography)

Kenji
----
http://obra3.blogspot.com