Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth your time)

Dan H

2005-01-27



"If that doesn't work then throw on a

 heaping pile of metal filings. "



Good idea! Now I have another use for that radar deflecting chaff I always

carry. ...Oh wait, that's aluminum. Maybe flares..





----- Original Message -----

From: "Brian Engelen" <beng-@comcast.net>

To: "'obra'" <ob-@topica.com>

Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 8:55 AM

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth your

time)





 I believe that the steel cleat on your shoe will do a better job than your

wheel. The wire in the street is part of an inductive loop circuit. Iron

is sensed better than aluminum. If that doesn't work then throw on a

heaping pile of metal filings. Brian





-----Original Message-----

From: Dan H [mailto:da-@bicyclerepairman.us]

Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 9:02 AM

To: Raisman, Greg; Jerry.-@comcast.net; ron-@spiritone.com;

sus-@teamestrogen.com; CycleO-@yahoogroups.com; 'obra';

shi-@lists.riseup.net

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth your

time)





Yeah, after 2 signal cycles when I realize the light is not going to

change,

 I will dismount, squat in the middle of the intersection in my cleats and

wave my bike horizontaly over the metal detector loop until the light

changes. I'd rather get a ticket.



----- Original Message -----

From: "Raisman, Greg" <Greg.R-@pdxtrans.org>

To: "'Dan H'" <da-@bicyclerepairman.us>; <Jerry.-@comcast.net>;

<ron-@spiritone.com>; <sus-@teamestrogen.com>;

<CycleO-@yahoogroups.com>; "'obra'" <ob-@topica.com>;

<shi-@lists.riseup.net>

Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 8:14 AM

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth your

time)





 Just an FYI:



I've heard the signal engineers around here say, "Put your tire on the

wire." This will supposedly trip the sensor when you're riding your

bicycle.

 So, When you see that black line on the pavement, under it is a wire

that

is

 tripped by magnets when metal passes over. Try putting your tire right

on the wire. I've had better luck trying it this way.



Enjoy.

Greg



-----Original Message-----

From: Dan H [mailto:da-@bicyclerepairman.us]

Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 12:28 AM

To: Jerry.-@comcast.net; ron-@spiritone.com;

sus-@teamestrogen.com; CycleO-@yahoogroups.com; 'obra';

shi-@lists.riseup.net

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth

your

time)











 A substantial number of red lights I encounter are NOT designed to

sense bikes.



That can be a problem. Usually a motorist will pull up behind me but

stop too far back to trigger the signal thinking they are being

courtious. I look back and becon them forward pointing at the road

immediatly behind me but most of the time I just get quizical looks

like that RCA dog and they just sit there so I increase the amplitude

of my signal with a big wave of my arm, like, "come here! See the big

loop in the road? it's a metal detector! Look!" About one in five will

figure it out and pull forward enough to trip the signal. I think a

lot people still think the signal

uses

 a pressure pad. They don't. That went out with the 70's.

If the motorist does not trip the signal in 2 cycles I'm forced to

make an illegal manuever to get things going. Sometimes you just have

to.

 

----- Original Message -----

From: "ron strasser" <ron-@spiritone.com>

To: <sus-@teamestrogen.com>; <CycleO-@yahoogroups.com>; "'obra'"

<ob-@topica.com>; <shi-@lists.riseup.net>

Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 7:54 PM

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth

your

   time)





 I agree that the bottom line is for us cyclists to not break the

rules

of

   the road (especially in busy urban areas and country roads that

have

poor

  sightlines). The auto drivers that see rules being disobeyed or

have

to

   deal with it will not remember the other riders that are riding

properly.

  I

urge cyclists to keep the respect of most motor vehicle drivers by

being

   courteous and riding in a predictable manner. I know that we

cannot

stop

 a

  driver from breaking the rules of the road...but two wrongs do not

make

 a

  right. Even when you are in a hurry on your rides, you make many

decisions based on your own safety. I would urge all to consider

obeying the

rules

  of

the road as a personal safety decision... in the short and long

term. ron strasser

----- Original Message -----

From: "Susan Otcenas" <sus-@teamestrogen.com>

To: <CycleO-@yahoogroups.com>; "'obra'" <ob-@topica.com>;

<shi-@lists.riseup.net>

Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 5:05 PM

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth your

time)

  



 Apologies in advance for cross-posting to more than one e-list.



Yesterday, the Oregonian published a Letter to the Editor that I

wrote

   after

 reading about the latest hit-and-run here on the west side.

Should

you

   care

 to read it, here's a link to my letter

http://www.oregonlive.com/letters/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/editorial/110639

     8840172300.xml

as well as the original article

http://www.oregonlive.com/metrowest/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/metro_west_new

     s/110544844993880.xml



Predictably, yesterday evening I received an anonymous phone call

from

    "Jack" who wanted to talk about my letter. Luckily, he wasn't a

nutcase,

   and we had an hour-long conversation about the differences

between

the

    way

cyclists and motorists see the world. It was a productive

conversation,

   with both of us conceding a few points.



Jack's biggest beef with cyclists was the way in which cyclists

often seem to flaunt the rules of the road. Running red lights

and stop signs,

riding

 3 abreast or in packs that do not move over when vehicles

approach

from

    behind, failing to signal, etc. We demand "respect" and assert

our "rights", yet fail to observe the rules ourselves. Frankly,

I agree

with

   him. Sure, motorists break the rules all the time, but it

doesn't matter. WE CAN NOT OCCUPY THE MORAL HIGH GROUND WHILE NOT

OBEYING THE RULES OURSELVES.



I want to start a discussion on a "code of conduct" of sorts.



### Note:

- If you wish to debate the evilness of autos, please start

another

thread.

 - If you wish to debate the war in Iraq, please start another

thread.

- If you wish to debate the FAIRNESS of said rules, DON'T start a

thread.

   Pony up the bucks to join the BTA, or better yet volunteer your

time

with

   them to advocate for change.

###



The fact is, the rules are the rules, such as they are. If we

ever

wish

  to

 gain the respect of the motorists, we have to do a better job of

obeying

  the

 rules of the road. And we have to figure out a way to politely

tell

our

   fellow cyclists that certain behavior is not acceptable. There's

a

lot

    to

be said for peer pressure.



In response to a recent post about police ticketing cyclists who

were

not

   stopping at a particular intersection yesterday, I would very

much

like

    to

commend the OBRA members who pointed that no e-mail "warning"

should

be

    necessary. My favorite was:



"Remember the "three R's" of cycling:



         Same road

         Same rules

         Same rights"



For myself, I'm making a pledge to do better. I know I

can't/won't

be

    perfect. But I'm going to re-double my efforts to stop at every

stop sign instead of sometimes rolling through when it's "clear".

I'm going to

ask

   friends on group rides to be more conscious of approaching

vehicles

so

   that

 we can be courteous to our fellow citizens by allowing them to

safely

pass.

 I'm going to re-read "Pedal Power, A Legal Guide for Oregon

Bicyclists"

    so

I

 can be sure of my rights and responsibilities (free download

available

 at

   http://www.stc-law.com/bikepower.html ).   I'm hoping that some of

you

   will

 also take some time to look at how you use your bicycle, and see

if

there

   isn't some small way in which you can improve as well. Every

action

we

    as

individuals take is seen as representative of our entire

class--especially if it's a negative action, which reinforces

what motorists already

think

  and

 expect.



So, I pose two questions:



1) What's the best way for individual cyclists to communicate

with

other

   individual cyclists, on the road, about behaving?



And



2) What would be the most effective way for an organization (like

the BTA, OBRA, the Wheelman, etc.) to do broad outreach to the

cycling

community

    on

this issue?



I apologize if this e-mail has come across as preachy. That's

not my intent. I just think we need to figure out a way to

peacefully

co-exist

   with motorists and this seems like a good way to start. Please

don't

flame

 me if you disagree. Constructive criticism and discussion

welcome.



Susan



--------------------------------------------

Susan Otcenas

TEAM ESTROGEN, INC. __~o

2038 NW Aloclek Dr., Suite 220     -\_<,

Hillsboro, OR 97124    (*)/'(*)



http://www.TeamEstrogen.com

1-877-310-4592

--------------------------------------------

Cycling Apparel and Accessories for Women

--------------------------------------------



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com. To respond

to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org To unsubscribe send

to obra-uns-@topica.com



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org To

unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



Brian Engelen

2005-01-27



I believe that the steel cleat on your shoe will do a better job than your

wheel. The wire in the street is part of an inductive loop circuit. Iron

is sensed better than aluminum. If that doesn't work then throw on a

heaping pile of metal filings. Brian





-----Original Message-----

From: Dan H [mailto:da-@bicyclerepairman.us]

Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 9:02 AM

To: Raisman, Greg; Jerry.-@comcast.net; ron-@spiritone.com;

sus-@teamestrogen.com; CycleO-@yahoogroups.com; 'obra';

shi-@lists.riseup.net

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth your

time)





Yeah, after 2 signal cycles when I realize the light is not going to change,

I will dismount, squat in the middle of the intersection in my cleats and

wave my bike horizontaly over the metal detector loop until the light

changes. I'd rather get a ticket.



----- Original Message -----

From: "Raisman, Greg" <Greg.R-@pdxtrans.org>

To: "'Dan H'" <da-@bicyclerepairman.us>; <Jerry.-@comcast.net>;

<ron-@spiritone.com>; <sus-@teamestrogen.com>;

<CycleO-@yahoogroups.com>; "'obra'" <ob-@topica.com>;

<shi-@lists.riseup.net>

Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 8:14 AM

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth your

time)





 Just an FYI:



I've heard the signal engineers around here say, "Put your tire on the

wire." This will supposedly trip the sensor when you're riding your

bicycle.

 So, When you see that black line on the pavement, under it is a wire

that

is

 tripped by magnets when metal passes over. Try putting your tire right

on the wire. I've had better luck trying it this way.



Enjoy.

Greg



-----Original Message-----

From: Dan H [mailto:da-@bicyclerepairman.us]

Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 12:28 AM

To: Jerry.-@comcast.net; ron-@spiritone.com;

sus-@teamestrogen.com; CycleO-@yahoogroups.com; 'obra';

shi-@lists.riseup.net

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth

your

time)











 A substantial number of red lights I encounter are NOT designed to

sense bikes.



That can be a problem. Usually a motorist will pull up behind me but

stop too far back to trigger the signal thinking they are being

courtious. I look back and becon them forward pointing at the road

immediatly behind me but most of the time I just get quizical looks

like that RCA dog and they just sit there so I increase the amplitude

of my signal with a big wave of my arm, like, "come here! See the big

loop in the road? it's a metal detector! Look!" About one in five will

figure it out and pull forward enough to trip the signal. I think a

lot people still think the signal

uses

 a pressure pad. They don't. That went out with the 70's.

If the motorist does not trip the signal in 2 cycles I'm forced to

make an illegal manuever to get things going. Sometimes you just have

to.

 

----- Original Message -----

From: "ron strasser" <ron-@spiritone.com>

To: <sus-@teamestrogen.com>; <CycleO-@yahoogroups.com>; "'obra'"

<ob-@topica.com>; <shi-@lists.riseup.net>

Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 7:54 PM

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth your

time)





 I agree that the bottom line is for us cyclists to not break the

rules

of

   the road (especially in busy urban areas and country roads that

have

poor

  sightlines). The auto drivers that see rules being disobeyed or

have

to

   deal with it will not remember the other riders that are riding

properly.

  I

urge cyclists to keep the respect of most motor vehicle drivers by

being

   courteous and riding in a predictable manner. I know that we

cannot

stop

 a

  driver from breaking the rules of the road...but two wrongs do not

make

 a

  right. Even when you are in a hurry on your rides, you make many

decisions based on your own safety. I would urge all to consider

obeying the

rules

  of

the road as a personal safety decision... in the short and long

term. ron strasser

----- Original Message -----

From: "Susan Otcenas" <sus-@teamestrogen.com>

To: <CycleO-@yahoogroups.com>; "'obra'" <ob-@topica.com>;

<shi-@lists.riseup.net>

Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 5:05 PM

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth your

time)

  



 Apologies in advance for cross-posting to more than one e-list.



Yesterday, the Oregonian published a Letter to the Editor that I

wrote

   after

 reading about the latest hit-and-run here on the west side.

Should

you

   care

 to read it, here's a link to my letter

http://www.oregonlive.com/letters/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/editorial/110639

    8840172300.xml

as well as the original article

http://www.oregonlive.com/metrowest/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/metro_west_new

    s/110544844993880.xml



Predictably, yesterday evening I received an anonymous phone call

from

    "Jack" who wanted to talk about my letter. Luckily, he wasn't a

nutcase,

   and we had an hour-long conversation about the differences

between

the

    way

cyclists and motorists see the world. It was a productive

conversation,

   with both of us conceding a few points.



Jack's biggest beef with cyclists was the way in which cyclists

often seem to flaunt the rules of the road. Running red lights

and stop signs,

riding

 3 abreast or in packs that do not move over when vehicles

approach

from

    behind, failing to signal, etc. We demand "respect" and assert

our "rights", yet fail to observe the rules ourselves. Frankly,

I agree

with

   him. Sure, motorists break the rules all the time, but it

doesn't matter. WE CAN NOT OCCUPY THE MORAL HIGH GROUND WHILE NOT

OBEYING THE RULES OURSELVES.



I want to start a discussion on a "code of conduct" of sorts.



### Note:

- If you wish to debate the evilness of autos, please start

another

thread.

 - If you wish to debate the war in Iraq, please start another

thread.

- If you wish to debate the FAIRNESS of said rules, DON'T start a

thread.

   Pony up the bucks to join the BTA, or better yet volunteer your

time

with

   them to advocate for change.

###



The fact is, the rules are the rules, such as they are. If we

ever

wish

  to

 gain the respect of the motorists, we have to do a better job of

obeying

  the

 rules of the road. And we have to figure out a way to politely

tell

our

   fellow cyclists that certain behavior is not acceptable. There's

a

lot

    to

be said for peer pressure.



In response to a recent post about police ticketing cyclists who

were

not

   stopping at a particular intersection yesterday, I would very

much

like

    to

commend the OBRA members who pointed that no e-mail "warning"

should

be

    necessary. My favorite was:



"Remember the "three R's" of cycling:



         Same road

         Same rules

         Same rights"



For myself, I'm making a pledge to do better. I know I

can't/won't

be

    perfect. But I'm going to re-double my efforts to stop at every

stop sign instead of sometimes rolling through when it's "clear".

I'm going to

ask

   friends on group rides to be more conscious of approaching

vehicles

so

   that

 we can be courteous to our fellow citizens by allowing them to

safely

pass.

 I'm going to re-read "Pedal Power, A Legal Guide for Oregon

Bicyclists"

    so

I

 can be sure of my rights and responsibilities (free download

available

 at

   http://www.stc-law.com/bikepower.html ).   I'm hoping that some of

you

   will

 also take some time to look at how you use your bicycle, and see

if

there

   isn't some small way in which you can improve as well. Every

action

we

    as

individuals take is seen as representative of our entire

class--especially if it's a negative action, which reinforces

what motorists already

think

  and

 expect.



So, I pose two questions:



1) What's the best way for individual cyclists to communicate

with

other

   individual cyclists, on the road, about behaving?



And



2) What would be the most effective way for an organization (like

the BTA, OBRA, the Wheelman, etc.) to do broad outreach to the

cycling

community

    on

this issue?



I apologize if this e-mail has come across as preachy. That's

not my intent. I just think we need to figure out a way to

peacefully

co-exist

   with motorists and this seems like a good way to start. Please

don't

flame

 me if you disagree. Constructive criticism and discussion

welcome.



Susan



--------------------------------------------

Susan Otcenas

TEAM ESTROGEN, INC. __~o

2038 NW Aloclek Dr., Suite 220     -\_<,

Hillsboro, OR 97124    (*)/'(*)



http://www.TeamEstrogen.com

1-877-310-4592

--------------------------------------------

Cycling Apparel and Accessories for Women

--------------------------------------------



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com. To respond

to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org To unsubscribe send

to obra-uns-@topica.com



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org To

unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



Dan H

2005-01-27



Yeah, after 2 signal cycles when I realize the light is not going to change,

I will dismount, squat in the middle of the intersection in my cleats and

wave my bike horizontaly over the metal detector loop until the light

changes. I'd rather get a ticket.



----- Original Message -----

From: "Raisman, Greg" <Greg.R-@pdxtrans.org>

To: "'Dan H'" <da-@bicyclerepairman.us>; <Jerry.-@comcast.net>;

<ron-@spiritone.com>; <sus-@teamestrogen.com>;

<CycleO-@yahoogroups.com>; "'obra'" <ob-@topica.com>;

<shi-@lists.riseup.net>

Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 8:14 AM

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth your

time)





 Just an FYI:



I've heard the signal engineers around here say, "Put your tire on the

wire." This will supposedly trip the sensor when you're riding your

bicycle.

 So, When you see that black line on the pavement, under it is a wire that

is

 tripped by magnets when metal passes over. Try putting your tire right on

the wire. I've had better luck trying it this way.



Enjoy.

Greg



-----Original Message-----

From: Dan H [mailto:da-@bicyclerepairman.us]

Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 12:28 AM

To: Jerry.-@comcast.net; ron-@spiritone.com;

sus-@teamestrogen.com; CycleO-@yahoogroups.com; 'obra';

shi-@lists.riseup.net

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth your

time)











 A substantial number of red lights I encounter are NOT designed to sense

bikes.



That can be a problem. Usually a motorist will pull up behind me but stop

too far back to trigger the signal thinking they are being courtious. I

look back and becon them forward pointing at the road immediatly behind me

but most of the time I just get quizical looks like that RCA dog and they

just sit there so I increase the amplitude of my signal with a big wave of

my arm, like, "come here! See the big loop in the road? it's a metal

detector! Look!" About one in five will figure it out and pull forward

enough to trip the signal. I think a lot people still think the signal

uses

 a pressure pad. They don't. That went out with the 70's.

If the motorist does not trip the signal in 2 cycles I'm forced to make an

illegal manuever to get things going. Sometimes you just have to.

 

----- Original Message -----

From: "ron strasser" <ron-@spiritone.com>

To: <sus-@teamestrogen.com>; <CycleO-@yahoogroups.com>; "'obra'"

<ob-@topica.com>; <shi-@lists.riseup.net>

Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 7:54 PM

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth your

time)





 I agree that the bottom line is for us cyclists to not break the rules

of

   the road (especially in busy urban areas and country roads that have

poor

  sightlines). The auto drivers that see rules being disobeyed or have

to

   deal with it will not remember the other riders that are riding

properly.

  I

urge cyclists to keep the respect of most motor vehicle drivers by

being

   courteous and riding in a predictable manner. I know that we cannot

stop

 a

  driver from breaking the rules of the road...but two wrongs do not

make

 a

  right. Even when you are in a hurry on your rides, you make many

decisions

based on your own safety. I would urge all to consider obeying the

rules

  of

the road as a personal safety decision... in the short and long term.

ron strasser

----- Original Message -----

From: "Susan Otcenas" <sus-@teamestrogen.com>

To: <CycleO-@yahoogroups.com>; "'obra'" <ob-@topica.com>;

<shi-@lists.riseup.net>

Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 5:05 PM

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth your

time)

  



 Apologies in advance for cross-posting to more than one e-list.



Yesterday, the Oregonian published a Letter to the Editor that I

wrote

   after

 reading about the latest hit-and-run here on the west side. Should

you

   care

 to read it, here's a link to my letter

http://www.oregonlive.com/letters/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/editorial/110639

    8840172300.xml

as well as the original article

http://www.oregonlive.com/metrowest/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/metro_west_new

    s/110544844993880.xml



Predictably, yesterday evening I received an anonymous phone call

from

    "Jack" who wanted to talk about my letter. Luckily, he wasn't a

nutcase,

   and we had an hour-long conversation about the differences between

the

    way

cyclists and motorists see the world. It was a productive

conversation,

   with both of us conceding a few points.



Jack's biggest beef with cyclists was the way in which cyclists often

seem

to flaunt the rules of the road. Running red lights and stop signs,

riding

 3 abreast or in packs that do not move over when vehicles approach

from

    behind, failing to signal, etc. We demand "respect" and assert our

"rights", yet fail to observe the rules ourselves. Frankly, I agree

with

   him. Sure, motorists break the rules all the time, but it doesn't

matter.

WE CAN NOT OCCUPY THE MORAL HIGH GROUND WHILE NOT OBEYING THE RULES

OURSELVES.



I want to start a discussion on a "code of conduct" of sorts.



### Note:

- If you wish to debate the evilness of autos, please start another

thread.

 - If you wish to debate the war in Iraq, please start another thread.

- If you wish to debate the FAIRNESS of said rules, DON'T start a

thread.

   Pony up the bucks to join the BTA, or better yet volunteer your time

with

   them to advocate for change.

###



The fact is, the rules are the rules, such as they are. If we ever

wish

  to

 gain the respect of the motorists, we have to do a better job of

obeying

  the

 rules of the road. And we have to figure out a way to politely tell

our

   fellow cyclists that certain behavior is not acceptable. There's a

lot

    to

be said for peer pressure.



In response to a recent post about police ticketing cyclists who were

not

   stopping at a particular intersection yesterday, I would very much

like

    to

commend the OBRA members who pointed that no e-mail "warning" should

be

    necessary. My favorite was:



"Remember the "three R's" of cycling:



         Same road

         Same rules

         Same rights"



For myself, I'm making a pledge to do better. I know I can't/won't

be

    perfect. But I'm going to re-double my efforts to stop at every stop

sign

instead of sometimes rolling through when it's "clear". I'm going to

ask

   friends on group rides to be more conscious of approaching vehicles

so

   that

 we can be courteous to our fellow citizens by allowing them to safely

pass.

 I'm going to re-read "Pedal Power, A Legal Guide for Oregon

Bicyclists"

    so

I

 can be sure of my rights and responsibilities (free download

available

 at

   http://www.stc-law.com/bikepower.html ).   I'm hoping that some of

you

   will

 also take some time to look at how you use your bicycle, and see if

there

   isn't some small way in which you can improve as well. Every action

we

    as

individuals take is seen as representative of our entire

class--especially

if it's a negative action, which reinforces what motorists already

think

  and

 expect.



So, I pose two questions:



1) What's the best way for individual cyclists to communicate with

other

   individual cyclists, on the road, about behaving?



And



2) What would be the most effective way for an organization (like the

BTA,

OBRA, the Wheelman, etc.) to do broad outreach to the cycling

community

    on

this issue?



I apologize if this e-mail has come across as preachy. That's not my

intent. I just think we need to figure out a way to peacefully

co-exist

   with motorists and this seems like a good way to start. Please don't

flame

 me if you disagree. Constructive criticism and discussion welcome.



Susan



--------------------------------------------

Susan Otcenas

TEAM ESTROGEN, INC. __~o

2038 NW Aloclek Dr., Suite 220     -\_<,

Hillsboro, OR 97124    (*)/'(*)



http://www.TeamEstrogen.com

1-877-310-4592

--------------------------------------------

Cycling Apparel and Accessories for Women

--------------------------------------------



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

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To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



Ron & Dorothy

2005-01-26



This is a multi-part message in MIME format.



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I don't have a problem with heavier fines (good idea). I am not a mother (another responder). I know that you have to be realistic with regard to the rules when sitting at lights that are not changing. I know that many of the riders that break the rules are not educated about the basic rules, but I do not believe that I am being naive when I say that obeying the rules as I mentioned (and this seems to have taken on the need for massive detail) in urban areas (especially when there are auto drivers around watching the cyclist blow a light.... does alot of harm with regard to all cyclists. I wish more folks rode bikes (got out of their rolling caskets) and then they would understand what we deal with when riding. I know that there are always going to be drivers that will kill cyclists with their autos.... but the more we can do to gain respect one person at a time will help. Many good points have been made here. I hope we all gain. Thanks for pointing out how I was unclear in my other response.

----- Original Message -----

From: Peter Murphy

To: ob-@topica.com ; shi-@lists.riseup.net

Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 10:27 AM

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth your time)





How is a cyclist supposed to earn the respect of car drivers when car drivers don't even respect each other?



Even if all the cyclists followed every rule of the road, cars and truck drivers would not respect them because bicycles are an impediment to their destination, for which they are already late.



I am not advocating disregarding the rules, quite the contrary. I believe in obeying traffic laws. But to think that you will gain respect from a part of the population, who believes you have no right to the asphalt, by just obeying traffic laws is naiive and about as productive as arguing with Lars Larson on the phone.



Advocate for heavier traffic fines and prosecution of the people who break the law. This includes cyclists. If a cyclist blows a red light and gets caught, fine 'em, but also fine the car that did not come to a complete stop beore making a right turn on a red light.



Pete Murphy







>From: ron strasser <ron-@spiritone.com>



>Reply-To: ron-@spiritone.com

>To: sus-@teamestrogen.com, CycleO-@yahoogroups.com, 'obra' <ob-@topica.com>, shi-@lists.riseup.net

>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth your time)

>Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 19:54:13 -0800

>

>I agree that the bottom line is for us cyclists to not break the rules of

>the road (especially in busy urban areas and country roads that have poor

>sightlines). The auto drivers that see rules being disobeyed or have to

>deal with it will not remember the other riders that are riding properly. I

>urge cyclists to keep the respect of most motor vehicle drivers by being

>courteous and riding in a predictable manner. I know that we cannot stop a

>driver from breaking the rules of the road...but two wrongs do not make a

>right. Even when you are in a hurry on your rides, you make many decisions

>based on your own safety. I would urge all to consider obeying the rules of

>the road as a personal safety decision... in the short and long term.

>ron strasser

>----- Original Message -----

>From: "Susan Otcenas" <sus-@teamestrogen.com>

>To: <CycleO-@yahoogroups.com>; "'obra'" <ob-@topica.com>;

><shi-@lists.riseup.net>

>Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 5:05 PM

>Subject: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth your time)

>

>

> > Apologies in advance for cross-posting to more than one e-list.

> >

> > Yesterday, the Oregonian published a Letter to the Editor that I wrote

>after

> > reading about the latest hit-and-run here on the west side. Should you

>care

> > to read it, here's a link to my letter

> >

>http://www.oregonlive.com/letters/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/editorial/110639

> > 8840172300.xml

> > as well as the original article

> >

>http://www.oregonlive.com/metrowest/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/metro_west_new

> > s/110544844993880.xml

> >

> > Predictably, yesterday evening I received an anonymous phone call from

> > "Jack" who wanted to talk about my letter. Luckily, he wasn't a nutcase,

> > and we had an hour-long conversation about the differences between the way

> > cyclists and motorists see the world. It was a productive conversation,

> > with both of us conceding a few points.

> >

> > Jack's biggest beef with cyclists was the way in which cyclists often seem

> > to flaunt the rules of the road. Running red lights and stop signs,

>riding

> > 3 abreast or in packs that do not move over when vehicles approach from

> > behind, failing to signal, etc. We demand "respect" and assert our

> > "rights", yet fail to observe the rules ourselves. Frankly, I agree with

> > him. Sure, motorists break the rules all the time, but it doesn't matter.

> > WE CAN NOT OCCUPY THE MORAL HIGH GROUND WHILE NOT OBEYING THE RULES

> > OURSELVES.

> >

> > I want to start a discussion on a "code of conduct" of sorts.

> >

> > ### Note:

> > - If you wish to debate the evilness of autos, please start another

>thread.

> > - If you wish to debate the war in Iraq, please start another thread.

> > - If you wish to debate the FAIRNESS of said rules, DON'T start a thread.

> > Pony up the bucks to join the BTA, or better yet volunteer your time with

> > them to advocate for change.

> > ###

> >

> > The fact is, the rules are the rules, such as they are. If we ever wish

>to

> > gain the respect of the motorists, we have to do a better job of obeying

>the

> > rules of the road. And we have to figure out a way to politely tell our

> > fellow cyclists that certain behavior is not acceptable. There's a lot to

> > be said for peer pressure.

> >

> > In response to a recent post about police ticketing cyclists who were not

> > stopping at a particular intersection yesterday, I would very much like to

> > commend the OBRA members who pointed that no e-mail "warning" should be

> > necessary. My favorite was:

> >

> > "Remember the "three R's" of cycling:

> >

> >         Same road

> >         Same rules

> >         Same rights"

> >

> > For myself, I'm making a pledge to do better. I know I can't/won't be

> > perfect. But I'm going to re-double my efforts to stop at every stop sign

> > instead of sometimes rolling through when it's "clear". I'm going to ask

> > friends on group rides to be more conscious of approaching vehicles so

>that

> > we can be courteous to our fellow citizens by allowing them to safely

>pass.

> > I'm going to re-read "Pedal Power, A Legal Guide for Oregon Bicyclists" so

>I

> > can be sure of my rights and responsibilities (free download available at

> > http://www.stc-law.com/bikepower.html ).   I'm hoping that some of you

>will

> > also take some time to look at how you use your bicycle, and see if there

> > isn't some small way in which you can improve as well. Every action we as

> > individuals take is seen as representative of our entire class--especially

> > if it's a negative action, which reinforces what motorists already think

>and

> > expect.

> >

> > So, I pose two questions:

> >

> > 1) What's the best way for individual cyclists to communicate with other

> > individual cyclists, on the road, about behaving?

> >

> > And

> >

> > 2) What would be the most effective way for an organization (like the BTA,

> > OBRA, the Wheelman, etc.) to do broad outreach to the cycling community on

> > this issue?

> >

> > I apologize if this e-mail has come across as preachy. That's not my

> > intent. I just think we need to figure out a way to peacefully co-exist

> > with motorists and this seems like a good way to start. Please don't

>flame

> > me if you disagree. Constructive criticism and discussion welcome.

> >

> > Susan

> >

> > --------------------------------------------

> > Susan Otcenas

> > TEAM ESTROGEN, INC. __~o

> > 2038 NW Aloclek Dr., Suite 220     -\_<,

> > Hillsboro, OR 97124    (*)/'(*)

> >

> > http://www.TeamEstrogen.com

> > 1-877-310-4592

> > --------------------------------------------

> > Cycling Apparel and Accessories for Women

> > --------------------------------------------

> >

> > To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

> > To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

> > To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

> >

> >

> >

>

>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

>To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

>To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

>

>

>

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I don't have a problem with heavier fines (good

idea).  I am not a mother (another responder).  I know that you have

to be realistic with regard to the rules when sitting at lights that are not

changing.  I know that many of the riders that break the rules are not

educated about the basic rules, but I do not believe that I am being naive when

I say that obeying the rules as I mentioned (and this seems to have taken on the

need for massive detail) in urban areas (especially when there are auto drivers

around watching the cyclist blow a light.... does alot of harm with regard to

all cyclists.  I wish more folks rode bikes (got out of their rolling

caskets) and then they would understand what we deal with when riding.  I

know that there are always going to be drivers that will kill cyclists with

their autos.... but the more we can do to gain respect one person at a time will

help.  Many good points have been made here.  I hope we all

gain.  Thanks for pointing out how I was unclear in my other

response. </FONT></DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>

<DIV

style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>

<A title=murp-@hotmail.com

href="mailto:murphy_-@hotmail.com">Peter Murphy</A> </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title-@topica.com

href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A> ; <A

title=-@lists.riseup.net

href="mailto:shi-@lists.riseup.net">shi-@lists.riseup.net</A> </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January 26, 2005 10:27

AM</DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct

(long, but hopefully worth your time)</DIV>

<DIV><BR></DIV>

<DIV>

<DIV class=RTE>

<P>How is a cyclist supposed to earn the respect of car drivers when car

drivers don't even respect each other?</P>

<P>Even if all the cyclists followed every rule of the road, cars and truck

drivers would not respect them because bicycles are an impediment

to their destination, for which they are already late. </P>

<P>I am not advocating disregarding the rules, quite the contrary. I believe

in obeying traffic laws. But to think that you will gain respect from a part

of the population, who believes you have no right to the asphalt, by just

obeying traffic laws is naiive and about as productive as arguing with Lars

Larson on the phone. </P>

<P>Advocate for heavier traffic fines and prosecution of the people who break

the law. This includes cyclists. If a cyclist blows a red light and

gets caught, fine 'em, but also fine the car that did not come to a complete

stop beore making a right turn on a red light.<BR><BR>Pete Murphy </P></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<P> </P>

<P>>From: ron strasser <ron-@spiritone.com> </P>

<DIV></DIV>>Reply-To: ron-@spiritone.com

<DIV></DIV>>To: sus-@teamestrogen.com, CycleO-@yahoogroups.com, 'obra'

<ob-@topica.com>, shi-@lists.riseup.net

<DIV></DIV>>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long,  but

hopefully worth your time)

<DIV></DIV>>Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 19:54:13 -0800

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>I agree that the bottom line is for us cyclists to not break

the rules of

<DIV></DIV>>the road (especially in busy urban areas and country roads that

have poor

<DIV></DIV>>sightlines).  The auto drivers that see rules being

disobeyed or have to

<DIV></DIV>>deal with it will not remember the other riders that are riding

properly.  I

<DIV></DIV>>urge cyclists to keep the respect of most motor vehicle drivers

by being

<DIV></DIV>>courteous and riding in a predictable manner. I know that we

cannot stop a

<DIV></DIV>>driver from breaking the rules of the road...but two wrongs do

not make a

<DIV></DIV>>right.  Even when you are in a hurry on your rides,

you make many decisions

<DIV></DIV>>based on your own safety.  I would urge all to

consider obeying the rules of

<DIV></DIV>>the road as a personal safety decision... in the short and long

term.

<DIV></DIV>>ron strasser

<DIV></DIV>>----- Original Message -----

<DIV></DIV>>From: "Susan Otcenas" <sus-@teamestrogen.com>

<DIV></DIV>>To: <CycleO-@yahoogroups.com>; "'obra'"

<ob-@topica.com>;

<DIV></DIV>><shi-@lists.riseup.net>

<DIV></DIV>>Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 5:05 PM

<DIV></DIV>>Subject: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth

your time)

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>> > Apologies in advance for cross-posting to more than one

e-list.

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > Yesterday, the Oregonian published a Letter to the Editor

that I wrote

<DIV></DIV>>after

<DIV></DIV>> > reading about the latest hit-and-run here on the west

side.  Should you

<DIV></DIV>>care

<DIV></DIV>> > to read it, here's a link to my letter

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>>http://www.oregonlive.com/letters/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/editorial/110639



<DIV></DIV>> > 8840172300.xml

<DIV></DIV>> > as well as the original article

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>>http://www.oregonlive.com/metrowest/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/metro_west_new



<DIV></DIV>> > s/110544844993880.xml

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > Predictably, yesterday evening I received an anonymous

phone call from

<DIV></DIV>> > "Jack" who wanted to talk about my

letter.  Luckily, he wasn't a nutcase,

<DIV></DIV>> > and we had an hour-long conversation about the

differences between the way

<DIV></DIV>> > cyclists and motorists see the world.  It was a

productive conversation,

<DIV></DIV>> > with both of us conceding a few points.

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > Jack's biggest beef with cyclists was the way in which

cyclists often seem

<DIV></DIV>> > to flaunt the rules of the road.  Running red

lights and stop signs,

<DIV></DIV>>riding

<DIV></DIV>> > 3 abreast or in packs that do not move over when vehicles

approach from

<DIV></DIV>> > behind, failing to signal, etc.  We demand

"respect" and assert our

<DIV></DIV>> > "rights", yet fail to observe the rules

ourselves.  Frankly, I agree with

<DIV></DIV>> > him.  Sure, motorists break the rules all the

time, but it doesn't matter.

<DIV></DIV>> > WE CAN NOT OCCUPY THE MORAL HIGH GROUND WHILE NOT OBEYING

THE RULES

<DIV></DIV>> > OURSELVES.

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > I want to start a discussion on a "code of conduct" of

sorts.

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > ### Note:

<DIV></DIV>> > - If you wish to debate the evilness of autos, please

start another

<DIV></DIV>>thread.

<DIV></DIV>> > - If you wish to debate the war in Iraq, please start

another thread.

<DIV></DIV>> > - If you wish to debate the FAIRNESS of said rules, DON'T

start a thread.

<DIV></DIV>> > Pony up the bucks to join the BTA, or better yet

volunteer your time with

<DIV></DIV>> > them to advocate for change.

<DIV></DIV>> > ###

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > The fact is, the rules are the rules, such as they

are.  If we ever wish

<DIV></DIV>>to

<DIV></DIV>> > gain the respect of the motorists, we have to do a better

job of obeying

<DIV></DIV>>the

<DIV></DIV>> > rules of the road.  And we have to figure out a

way to politely tell our

<DIV></DIV>> > fellow cyclists that certain behavior is not

acceptable.  There's a lot to

<DIV></DIV>> > be said for peer pressure.

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > In response to a recent post about police ticketing

cyclists who were not

<DIV></DIV>> > stopping at a particular intersection yesterday, I would

very much like to

<DIV></DIV>> > commend the OBRA members who pointed that no e-mail

"warning" should be

<DIV></DIV>> > necessary.  My favorite was:

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > "Remember the "three R's" of cycling:

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> >         Same road



<DIV></DIV>> >         Same

rules

<DIV></DIV>> >         Same

rights"

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > For myself, I'm making a pledge to do

better.  I know I can't/won't be

<DIV></DIV>> > perfect.  But I'm going to re-double my efforts

to stop at every stop sign

<DIV></DIV>> > instead of sometimes rolling through when it's

"clear".  I'm going to ask

<DIV></DIV>> > friends on group rides to be more conscious of

approaching vehicles so

<DIV></DIV>>that

<DIV></DIV>> > we can be courteous to our fellow citizens by allowing

them to safely

<DIV></DIV>>pass.

<DIV></DIV>> > I'm going to re-read "Pedal Power, A Legal Guide for

Oregon Bicyclists" so

<DIV></DIV>>I

<DIV></DIV>> > can be sure of my rights and responsibilities (free

download available at

<DIV></DIV>> > http://www.stc-law.com/bikepower.html ).   I'm

hoping that some of you

<DIV></DIV>>will

<DIV></DIV>> > also take some time to look at how you use your bicycle,

and see if there

<DIV></DIV>> > isn't some small way in which you can improve as

well.  Every action we as

<DIV></DIV>> > individuals take is seen as representative of our entire

class--especially

<DIV></DIV>> > if it's a negative action, which reinforces what

motorists already think

<DIV></DIV>>and

<DIV></DIV>> > expect.

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > So, I pose two questions:

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > 1) What's the best way for individual cyclists to

communicate with other

<DIV></DIV>> > individual cyclists, on the road, about behaving?

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > And

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > 2) What would be the most effective way for an

organization (like the BTA,

<DIV></DIV>> > OBRA, the Wheelman, etc.) to do broad outreach to the

cycling community on

<DIV></DIV>> > this issue?

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > I apologize if this e-mail has come across as

preachy.  That's not my

<DIV></DIV>> > intent.  I just think we need to figure out a

way to peacefully co-exist

<DIV></DIV>> > with motorists and this seems like a good way to

start.  Please don't

<DIV></DIV>>flame

<DIV></DIV>> > me if you disagree.  Constructive criticism and

discussion welcome.

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > Susan

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > --------------------------------------------

<DIV></DIV>> > Susan Otcenas

<DIV></DIV>> > TEAM ESTROGEN, INC. __~o

<DIV></DIV>> > 2038 NW Aloclek Dr., Suite 220    

-\_<,

<DIV></DIV>> > Hillsboro, OR 97124    (*)/'(*)

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > http://www.TeamEstrogen.com

<DIV></DIV>> > 1-877-310-4592

<DIV></DIV>> > --------------------------------------------

<DIV></DIV>> >  Cycling Apparel and Accessories for Women

<DIV></DIV>> > --------------------------------------------

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

<DIV></DIV>> > To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

<DIV></DIV>> > To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

<DIV></DIV>>To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

<DIV></DIV>>To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV></DIV><PRE>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>



------=_NextPart_000_0093_01C503E2.180F1120--



Andrew Beehler

2005-01-26



This is the argument that cyclists, or "people on bikes" are making every

day, and the reason that this string keeps on going. We have to face that

whenever we run a light or stop sign, we are breaking the law. It is not

more ok to break a traffic law if no cars are around.

I am not saying that I do not do the same things at lights, because I do.

I'm just saying that when questioned about it, we should take

accountability, and not claim that it is ok to break a law if no one is

looking.



-Andrew



-----Original Message-----

From: Schreck, George [mailto:george.-@pacificorp.com]

Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 9:48 AM

To: da-@bicyclerepairman.us; Jerry.-@comcast.net; ron-@spiritone.com;

sus-@teamestrogen.com; CycleO-@yahoogroups.com; obra;

shi-@lists.riseup.net

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth your

time)



Yes, following the law does not mean obey it when the result is stupid

like sitting there for ten minutes waiting for a car to trip the light.

At some point, you have to be reasonable. Also, my view is that in

those situations, the road has been designed in a manner that does not

accord me equal treatment as a bicyclist, so I address the situation by

modifying the rule to address the discrepancy and treat it more in the

nature of a stop sign.



-----Original Message-----

From: Dan H [mailto:da-@bicyclerepairman.us]

Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 12:28 AM

To: Jerry.-@comcast.net; ron-@spiritone.com;

sus-@teamestrogen.com; CycleO-@yahoogroups.com; 'obra';

shi-@lists.riseup.net

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth your

time)









 A substantial number of red lights I encounter are NOT designed to

sense

 bikes.



That can be a problem. Usually a motorist will pull up behind me but

stop

too far back to trigger the signal thinking they are being courtious. I

look back and becon them forward pointing at the road immediatly behind

me

but most of the time I just get quizical looks like that RCA dog and

they

just sit there so I increase the amplitude of my signal with a big wave

of

my arm, like, "come here! See the big loop in the road? it's a metal

detector! Look!" About one in five will figure it out and pull forward

enough to trip the signal. I think a lot people still think the signal

uses

a pressure pad. They don't. That went out with the 70's.

If the motorist does not trip the signal in 2 cycles I'm forced to make

an

illegal manuever to get things going. Sometimes you just have to.

 

----- Original Message -----

From: "ron strasser" <ron-@spiritone.com>

To: <sus-@teamestrogen.com>; <CycleO-@yahoogroups.com>; "'obra'"

<ob-@topica.com>; <shi-@lists.riseup.net>

Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 7:54 PM

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth

your

 time)





 I agree that the bottom line is for us cyclists to not break the

rules of

  the road (especially in busy urban areas and country roads that have

poor

  sightlines). The auto drivers that see rules being disobeyed or

have to

  deal with it will not remember the other riders that are riding

properly.

  I

urge cyclists to keep the respect of most motor vehicle drivers by

being

  courteous and riding in a predictable manner. I know that we cannot

stop

a

  driver from breaking the rules of the road...but two wrongs do not

make

a

  right. Even when you are in a hurry on your rides, you make many

decisions

based on your own safety. I would urge all to consider obeying the

rules

  of

the road as a personal safety decision... in the short and long

term.

  ron strasser

----- Original Message -----

From: "Susan Otcenas" <sus-@teamestrogen.com>

To: <CycleO-@yahoogroups.com>; "'obra'" <ob-@topica.com>;

<shi-@lists.riseup.net>

Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 5:05 PM

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth your

time)

  



 Apologies in advance for cross-posting to more than one e-list.



Yesterday, the Oregonian published a Letter to the Editor that I

wrote

  after

 reading about the latest hit-and-run here on the west side. Should

you

  care

 to read it, here's a link to my letter

http://www.oregonlive.com/letters/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/editorial/11

0639

   8840172300.xml

as well as the original article

http://www.oregonlive.com/metrowest/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/metro_west

_new

   s/110544844993880.xml



Predictably, yesterday evening I received an anonymous phone call

from

   "Jack" who wanted to talk about my letter. Luckily, he wasn't a

nutcase,

   and we had an hour-long conversation about the differences between

the

   way

cyclists and motorists see the world. It was a productive

conversation,

   with both of us conceding a few points.



Jack's biggest beef with cyclists was the way in which cyclists

often

   seem

to flaunt the rules of the road. Running red lights and stop

signs,

  riding

 3 abreast or in packs that do not move over when vehicles approach

from

   behind, failing to signal, etc. We demand "respect" and assert our

"rights", yet fail to observe the rules ourselves. Frankly, I

agree

with

   him. Sure, motorists break the rules all the time, but it doesn't

matter.

WE CAN NOT OCCUPY THE MORAL HIGH GROUND WHILE NOT OBEYING THE RULES

OURSELVES.



I want to start a discussion on a "code of conduct" of sorts.



### Note:

- If you wish to debate the evilness of autos, please start another

thread.

 - If you wish to debate the war in Iraq, please start another

thread.

   - If you wish to debate the FAIRNESS of said rules, DON'T start a

thread.

   Pony up the bucks to join the BTA, or better yet volunteer your

time

with

   them to advocate for change.

###



The fact is, the rules are the rules, such as they are. If we ever

wish

  to

 gain the respect of the motorists, we have to do a better job of

obeying

  the

 rules of the road. And we have to figure out a way to politely

tell

our

   fellow cyclists that certain behavior is not acceptable. There's a

lot

   to

be said for peer pressure.



In response to a recent post about police ticketing cyclists who

were

not

   stopping at a particular intersection yesterday, I would very much

like

   to

commend the OBRA members who pointed that no e-mail "warning"

should be

   necessary. My favorite was:



"Remember the "three R's" of cycling:



         Same road

         Same rules

         Same rights"



For myself, I'm making a pledge to do better. I know I can't/won't

be

   perfect. But I'm going to re-double my efforts to stop at every

stop

   sign

instead of sometimes rolling through when it's "clear". I'm going

to

ask

   friends on group rides to be more conscious of approaching vehicles

so

  that

 we can be courteous to our fellow citizens by allowing them to

safely

  pass.

 I'm going to re-read "Pedal Power, A Legal Guide for Oregon

Bicyclists"

   so

I

 can be sure of my rights and responsibilities (free download

available

at

   http://www.stc-law.com/bikepower.html ).   I'm hoping that some of

you

  will

 also take some time to look at how you use your bicycle, and see if

there

   isn't some small way in which you can improve as well. Every

action we

   as

individuals take is seen as representative of our entire

class--especially

if it's a negative action, which reinforces what motorists already

think

  and

 expect.



So, I pose two questions:



1) What's the best way for individual cyclists to communicate with

other

   individual cyclists, on the road, about behaving?



And



2) What would be the most effective way for an organization (like

the

   BTA,

OBRA, the Wheelman, etc.) to do broad outreach to the cycling

community

   on

this issue?



I apologize if this e-mail has come across as preachy. That's not

my

   intent. I just think we need to figure out a way to peacefully

co-exist

   with motorists and this seems like a good way to start. Please

don't

  flame

 me if you disagree. Constructive criticism and discussion welcome.



Susan



--------------------------------------------

Susan Otcenas

TEAM ESTROGEN, INC. __~o

2038 NW Aloclek Dr., Suite 220     -\_<,

Hillsboro, OR 97124    (*)/'(*)



http://www.TeamEstrogen.com

1-877-310-4592

--------------------------------------------

Cycling Apparel and Accessories for Women

--------------------------------------------



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

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To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



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To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



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It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this email by anyone

else, unless expressly approved by the sender or an authorized addressee, is

unauthorized.



If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution

or any action omitted or taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be

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contact the sender, delete this e-mail and destroy all copies.



============================================================================

==



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Peter Murphy

2005-01-26



<html><div style='background-color:'><DIV class=RTE>

<P><BR><BR></P></DIV>

<P>Jerry et al.</P>

<P>Look for the point where the "loop" connects to the wire that leads back to the signal controller. Place your bike so that the cranks (biggest hunk of metal) over that point. If you still have problems, note the intersection and the direction of travel and notify the county or city and they may be able to increase the sensitivity.<BR><BR><BR>Pete Murphy </P>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<P> </P>

<P>>From: Jerry Winter <Jerry.-@comcast.net> </P>

<DIV></DIV>>Reply-To: Jerry.-@comcast.net

<DIV></DIV>>To: ron-@spiritone.com, sus-@teamestrogen.com, CycleO-@yahoogroups.com, 'obra' <ob-@topica.com>, shi-@lists.riseup.net

<DIV></DIV>>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long,  but hopefully worth your time)

<DIV></DIV>>Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 23:15:36 -0800

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>A substantial number of red lights I encounter are NOT designed to

<DIV></DIV>>sense bikes.  Obeying the law (waiting for the light to turn green)

<DIV></DIV>>is pretty hard to do ... after you've waited through several greens

<DIV></DIV>>on the cross traffic. Cars in adjacent lanes occassionally seem

<DIV></DIV>>perturbed when bikes run the red. They've never had to wait through

<DIV></DIV>>several greens.

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>Jerry Winter

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>----- Original Message ----- From: "ron strasser"

<DIV></DIV>><ron-@spiritone.com>

<DIV></DIV>>To: <sus-@teamestrogen.com>; <CycleO-@yahoogroups.com>;

<DIV></DIV>>"'obra'" <ob-@topica.com>; <shi-@lists.riseup.net>

<DIV></DIV>>Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 7:54 PM

<DIV></DIV>>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth

<DIV></DIV>>your time)

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>>I agree that the bottom line is for us cyclists to not break the

<DIV></DIV>>>rules of

<DIV></DIV>>>the road (especially in busy urban areas and country roads that

<DIV></DIV>>>have poor

<DIV></DIV>>>sightlines).  The auto drivers that see rules being disobeyed or

<DIV></DIV>>>have to

<DIV></DIV>>>deal with it will not remember the other riders that are riding

<DIV></DIV>>>properly. I

<DIV></DIV>>>urge cyclists to keep the respect of most motor vehicle drivers by

<DIV></DIV>>>being

<DIV></DIV>>>courteous and riding in a predictable manner. I know that we cannot

<DIV></DIV>>>stop a

<DIV></DIV>>>driver from breaking the rules of the road...but two wrongs do not

<DIV></DIV>>>make a

<DIV></DIV>>>right.  Even when you are in a hurry on your rides, you make many

<DIV></DIV>>>decisions

<DIV></DIV>>>based on your own safety.  I would urge all to consider obeying the

<DIV></DIV>>>rules of

<DIV></DIV>>>the road as a personal safety decision... in the short and long

<DIV></DIV>>>term.

<DIV></DIV>>>ron strasser

<DIV></DIV>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan Otcenas"

<DIV></DIV>>><sus-@teamestrogen.com>

<DIV></DIV>>>To: <CycleO-@yahoogroups.com>; "'obra'" <ob-@topica.com>;

<DIV></DIV>>><shi-@lists.riseup.net>

<DIV></DIV>>>Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 5:05 PM

<DIV></DIV>>>Subject: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth

<DIV></DIV>>>your time)

<DIV></DIV>>>

<DIV></DIV>>>

<DIV></DIV>>>>Apologies in advance for cross-posting to more than one e-list.

<DIV></DIV>>>>

<DIV></DIV>>>>Yesterday, the Oregonian published a Letter to the Editor that I

<DIV></DIV>>>>wrote

<DIV></DIV>>>after

<DIV></DIV>>>>reading about the latest hit-and-run here on the west side.  

<DIV></DIV>>>>Should you

<DIV></DIV>>>care

<DIV></DIV>>>>to read it, here's a link to my letter

<DIV></DIV>>>>

<DIV></DIV>>>http://www.oregonlive.com/letters/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/editorial/110639

<DIV></DIV>>>>8840172300.xml

<DIV></DIV>>>>as well as the original article

<DIV></DIV>>>>

<DIV></DIV>>>http://www.oregonlive.com/metrowest/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/metro_west_new

<DIV></DIV>>>>s/110544844993880.xml

<DIV></DIV>>>>

<DIV></DIV>>>>Predictably, yesterday evening I received an anonymous phone call

<DIV></DIV>>>>from

<DIV></DIV>>>>"Jack" who wanted to talk about my letter.  Luckily, he wasn't a

<DIV></DIV>>>>nutcase,

<DIV></DIV>>>>and we had an hour-long conversation about the differences between

<DIV></DIV>>>>the way

<DIV></DIV>>>>cyclists and motorists see the world.  It was a productive

<DIV></DIV>>>>conversation,

<DIV></DIV>>>>with both of us conceding a few points.

<DIV></DIV>>>>

<DIV></DIV>>>>Jack's biggest beef with cyclists was the way in which cyclists

<DIV></DIV>>>>often seem

<DIV></DIV>>>>to flaunt the rules of the road.  Running red lights and stop

<DIV></DIV>>>>signs,

<DIV></DIV>>>riding

<DIV></DIV>>>>3 abreast or in packs that do not move over when vehicles approach

<DIV></DIV>>>>from

<DIV></DIV>>>>behind, failing to signal, etc.  We demand "respect" and assert

<DIV></DIV>>>>our

<DIV></DIV>>>>"rights", yet fail to observe the rules ourselves.  Frankly, I

<DIV></DIV>>>>agree with

<DIV></DIV>>>>him.  Sure, motorists break the rules all the time, but it doesn't

<DIV></DIV>>>>matter.

<DIV></DIV>>>>WE CAN NOT OCCUPY THE MORAL HIGH GROUND WHILE NOT OBEYING THE

<DIV></DIV>>>>RULES

<DIV></DIV>>>>OURSELVES.

<DIV></DIV>>>>

<DIV></DIV>>>>I want to start a discussion on a "code of conduct" of sorts.

<DIV></DIV>>>>

<DIV></DIV>>>>### Note:

<DIV></DIV>>>>- If you wish to debate the evilness of autos, please start

<DIV></DIV>>>>another

<DIV></DIV>>>thread.

<DIV></DIV>>>>- If you wish to debate the war in Iraq, please start another

<DIV></DIV>>>>thread.

<DIV></DIV>>>>- If you wish to debate the FAIRNESS of said rules, DON'T start a

<DIV></DIV>>>>thread.

<DIV></DIV>>>>Pony up the bucks to join the BTA, or better yet volunteer your

<DIV></DIV>>>>time with

<DIV></DIV>>>>them to advocate for change.

<DIV></DIV>>>>###

<DIV></DIV>>>>

<DIV></DIV>>>>The fact is, the rules are the rules, such as they are.  If we

<DIV></DIV>>>>ever wish

<DIV></DIV>>>to

<DIV></DIV>>>>gain the respect of the motorists, we have to do a better job of

<DIV></DIV>>>>obeying

<DIV></DIV>>>the

<DIV></DIV>>>>rules of the road.  And we have to figure out a way to politely

<DIV></DIV>>>>tell our

<DIV></DIV>>>>fellow cyclists that certain behavior is not acceptable.  There's

<DIV></DIV>>>>a lot to

<DIV></DIV>>>>be said for peer pressure.

<DIV></DIV>>>>

<DIV></DIV>>>>In response to a recent post about police ticketing cyclists who

<DIV></DIV>>>>were not

<DIV></DIV>>>>stopping at a particular intersection yesterday, I would very much

<DIV></DIV>>>>like to

<DIV></DIV>>>>commend the OBRA members who pointed that no e-mail "warning"

<DIV></DIV>>>>should be

<DIV></DIV>>>>necessary.  My favorite was:

<DIV></DIV>>>>

<DIV></DIV>>>>"Remember the "three R's" of cycling:

<DIV></DIV>>>>

<DIV></DIV>>>>         Same road

<DIV></DIV>>>>         Same rules

<DIV></DIV>>>>         Same rights"

<DIV></DIV>>>>

<DIV></DIV>>>>For myself, I'm making a pledge to do better.  I know I

<DIV></DIV>>>>can't/won't be

<DIV></DIV>>>>perfect.  But I'm going to re-double my efforts to stop at every

<DIV></DIV>>>>stop sign

<DIV></DIV>>>>instead of sometimes rolling through when it's "clear".  I'm going

<DIV></DIV>>>>to ask

<DIV></DIV>>>>friends on group rides to be more conscious of approaching

<DIV></DIV>>>>vehicles so

<DIV></DIV>>>that

<DIV></DIV>>>>we can be courteous to our fellow citizens by allowing them to

<DIV></DIV>>>>safely

<DIV></DIV>>>pass.

<DIV></DIV>>>>I'm going to re-read "Pedal Power, A Legal Guide for Oregon

<DIV></DIV>>>>Bicyclists" so

<DIV></DIV>>>I

<DIV></DIV>>>>can be sure of my rights and responsibilities (free download

<DIV></DIV>>>>available at

<DIV></DIV>>>>http://www.stc-law.com/bikepower.html ).   I'm hoping that some of

<DIV></DIV>>>>you

<DIV></DIV>>>will

<DIV></DIV>>>>also take some time to look at how you use your bicycle, and see

<DIV></DIV>>>>if there

<DIV></DIV>>>>isn't some small way in which you can improve as well.  Every

<DIV></DIV>>>>action we as

<DIV></DIV>>>>individuals take is seen as representative of our entire

<DIV></DIV>>>>class--especially

<DIV></DIV>>>>if it's a negative action, which reinforces what motorists already

<DIV></DIV>>>>think

<DIV></DIV>>>and

<DIV></DIV>>>>expect.

<DIV></DIV>>>>

<DIV></DIV>>>>So, I pose two questions:

<DIV></DIV>>>>

<DIV></DIV>>>>1) What's the best way for individual cyclists to communicate with

<DIV></DIV>>>>other

<DIV></DIV>>>>individual cyclists, on the road, about behaving?

<DIV></DIV>>>>

<DIV></DIV>>>>And

<DIV></DIV>>>>

<DIV></DIV>>>>2) What would be the most effective way for an organization (like

<DIV></DIV>>>>the BTA,

<DIV></DIV>>>>OBRA, the Wheelman, etc.) to do broad outreach to the cycling

<DIV></DIV>>>>community on

<DIV></DIV>>>>this issue?

<DIV></DIV>>>>

<DIV></DIV>>>>I apologize if this e-mail has come across as preachy.  That's not

<DIV></DIV>>>>my

<DIV></DIV>>>>intent.  I just think we need to figure out a way to peacefully

<DIV></DIV>>>>co-exist

<DIV></DIV>>>>with motorists and this seems like a good way to start.  Please

<DIV></DIV>>>>don't

<DIV></DIV>>>flame

<DIV></DIV>>>>me if you disagree.  Constructive criticism and discussion

<DIV></DIV>>>>welcome.

<DIV></DIV>>>>

<DIV></DIV>>>>Susan

<DIV></DIV>>>>

<DIV></DIV>>>>--------------------------------------------

<DIV></DIV>>>>Susan Otcenas

<DIV></DIV>>>>TEAM ESTROGEN, INC. __~o

<DIV></DIV>>>>2038 NW Aloclek Dr., Suite 220     -\_<,

<DIV></DIV>>>>Hillsboro, OR 97124    (*)/'(*)

<DIV></DIV>>>>

<DIV></DIV>>>>http://www.TeamEstrogen.com

<DIV></DIV>>>>1-877-310-4592

<DIV></DIV>>>>--------------------------------------------

<DIV></DIV>>>>  Cycling Apparel and Accessories for Women

<DIV></DIV>>>>--------------------------------------------

<DIV></DIV>>>>

<DIV></DIV>>>>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

<DIV></DIV>>>>To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

<DIV></DIV>>>>To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

<DIV></DIV>>>>

<DIV></DIV>>>>

<DIV></DIV>>>>

<DIV></DIV>>>

<DIV></DIV>>>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

<DIV></DIV>>>To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

<DIV></DIV>>>To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

<DIV></DIV>>>

<DIV></DIV>>>

<DIV></DIV>>>

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

<DIV></DIV>>To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

<DIV></DIV>>To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV></div></html>



Peter Murphy

2005-01-26



<html><div style='background-color:'><DIV class=RTE>

<P>How is a cyclist supposed to earn the respect of car drivers when car drivers don't even respect each other?</P>

<P>Even if all the cyclists followed every rule of the road, cars and truck drivers would not respect them because bicycles are an impediment to their destination, for which they are already late. </P>

<P>I am not advocating disregarding the rules, quite the contrary. I believe in obeying traffic laws. But to think that you will gain respect from a part of the population, who believes you have no right to the asphalt, by just obeying traffic laws is naiive and about as productive as arguing with Lars Larson on the phone. </P>

<P>Advocate for heavier traffic fines and prosecution of the people who break the law. This includes cyclists. If a cyclist blows a red light and gets caught, fine 'em, but also fine the car that did not come to a complete stop beore making a right turn on a red light.<BR><BR>Pete Murphy </P></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<P> </P>

<P>>From: ron strasser <ron-@spiritone.com> </P>

<DIV></DIV>>Reply-To: ron-@spiritone.com

<DIV></DIV>>To: sus-@teamestrogen.com, CycleO-@yahoogroups.com, 'obra' <ob-@topica.com>, shi-@lists.riseup.net

<DIV></DIV>>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long,  but hopefully worth your time)

<DIV></DIV>>Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 19:54:13 -0800

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>I agree that the bottom line is for us cyclists to not break the rules of

<DIV></DIV>>the road (especially in busy urban areas and country roads that have poor

<DIV></DIV>>sightlines).  The auto drivers that see rules being disobeyed or have to

<DIV></DIV>>deal with it will not remember the other riders that are riding properly.  I

<DIV></DIV>>urge cyclists to keep the respect of most motor vehicle drivers by being

<DIV></DIV>>courteous and riding in a predictable manner. I know that we cannot stop a

<DIV></DIV>>driver from breaking the rules of the road...but two wrongs do not make a

<DIV></DIV>>right.  Even when you are in a hurry on your rides, you make many decisions

<DIV></DIV>>based on your own safety.  I would urge all to consider obeying the rules of

<DIV></DIV>>the road as a personal safety decision... in the short and long term.

<DIV></DIV>>ron strasser

<DIV></DIV>>----- Original Message -----

<DIV></DIV>>From: "Susan Otcenas" <sus-@teamestrogen.com>

<DIV></DIV>>To: <CycleO-@yahoogroups.com>; "'obra'" <ob-@topica.com>;

<DIV></DIV>><shi-@lists.riseup.net>

<DIV></DIV>>Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 5:05 PM

<DIV></DIV>>Subject: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth your time)

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>> > Apologies in advance for cross-posting to more than one e-list.

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > Yesterday, the Oregonian published a Letter to the Editor that I wrote

<DIV></DIV>>after

<DIV></DIV>> > reading about the latest hit-and-run here on the west side.  Should you

<DIV></DIV>>care

<DIV></DIV>> > to read it, here's a link to my letter

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>>http://www.oregonlive.com/letters/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/editorial/110639

<DIV></DIV>> > 8840172300.xml

<DIV></DIV>> > as well as the original article

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>>http://www.oregonlive.com/metrowest/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/metro_west_new

<DIV></DIV>> > s/110544844993880.xml

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > Predictably, yesterday evening I received an anonymous phone call from

<DIV></DIV>> > "Jack" who wanted to talk about my letter.  Luckily, he wasn't a nutcase,

<DIV></DIV>> > and we had an hour-long conversation about the differences between the way

<DIV></DIV>> > cyclists and motorists see the world.  It was a productive conversation,

<DIV></DIV>> > with both of us conceding a few points.

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > Jack's biggest beef with cyclists was the way in which cyclists often seem

<DIV></DIV>> > to flaunt the rules of the road.  Running red lights and stop signs,

<DIV></DIV>>riding

<DIV></DIV>> > 3 abreast or in packs that do not move over when vehicles approach from

<DIV></DIV>> > behind, failing to signal, etc.  We demand "respect" and assert our

<DIV></DIV>> > "rights", yet fail to observe the rules ourselves.  Frankly, I agree with

<DIV></DIV>> > him.  Sure, motorists break the rules all the time, but it doesn't matter.

<DIV></DIV>> > WE CAN NOT OCCUPY THE MORAL HIGH GROUND WHILE NOT OBEYING THE RULES

<DIV></DIV>> > OURSELVES.

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > I want to start a discussion on a "code of conduct" of sorts.

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > ### Note:

<DIV></DIV>> > - If you wish to debate the evilness of autos, please start another

<DIV></DIV>>thread.

<DIV></DIV>> > - If you wish to debate the war in Iraq, please start another thread.

<DIV></DIV>> > - If you wish to debate the FAIRNESS of said rules, DON'T start a thread.

<DIV></DIV>> > Pony up the bucks to join the BTA, or better yet volunteer your time with

<DIV></DIV>> > them to advocate for change.

<DIV></DIV>> > ###

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > The fact is, the rules are the rules, such as they are.  If we ever wish

<DIV></DIV>>to

<DIV></DIV>> > gain the respect of the motorists, we have to do a better job of obeying

<DIV></DIV>>the

<DIV></DIV>> > rules of the road.  And we have to figure out a way to politely tell our

<DIV></DIV>> > fellow cyclists that certain behavior is not acceptable.  There's a lot to

<DIV></DIV>> > be said for peer pressure.

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > In response to a recent post about police ticketing cyclists who were not

<DIV></DIV>> > stopping at a particular intersection yesterday, I would very much like to

<DIV></DIV>> > commend the OBRA members who pointed that no e-mail "warning" should be

<DIV></DIV>> > necessary.  My favorite was:

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > "Remember the "three R's" of cycling:

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> >         Same road

<DIV></DIV>> >         Same rules

<DIV></DIV>> >         Same rights"

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > For myself, I'm making a pledge to do better.  I know I can't/won't be

<DIV></DIV>> > perfect.  But I'm going to re-double my efforts to stop at every stop sign

<DIV></DIV>> > instead of sometimes rolling through when it's "clear".  I'm going to ask

<DIV></DIV>> > friends on group rides to be more conscious of approaching vehicles so

<DIV></DIV>>that

<DIV></DIV>> > we can be courteous to our fellow citizens by allowing them to safely

<DIV></DIV>>pass.

<DIV></DIV>> > I'm going to re-read "Pedal Power, A Legal Guide for Oregon Bicyclists" so

<DIV></DIV>>I

<DIV></DIV>> > can be sure of my rights and responsibilities (free download available at

<DIV></DIV>> > http://www.stc-law.com/bikepower.html ).   I'm hoping that some of you

<DIV></DIV>>will

<DIV></DIV>> > also take some time to look at how you use your bicycle, and see if there

<DIV></DIV>> > isn't some small way in which you can improve as well.  Every action we as

<DIV></DIV>> > individuals take is seen as representative of our entire class--especially

<DIV></DIV>> > if it's a negative action, which reinforces what motorists already think

<DIV></DIV>>and

<DIV></DIV>> > expect.

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > So, I pose two questions:

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > 1) What's the best way for individual cyclists to communicate with other

<DIV></DIV>> > individual cyclists, on the road, about behaving?

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > And

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > 2) What would be the most effective way for an organization (like the BTA,

<DIV></DIV>> > OBRA, the Wheelman, etc.) to do broad outreach to the cycling community on

<DIV></DIV>> > this issue?

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > I apologize if this e-mail has come across as preachy.  That's not my

<DIV></DIV>> > intent.  I just think we need to figure out a way to peacefully co-exist

<DIV></DIV>> > with motorists and this seems like a good way to start.  Please don't

<DIV></DIV>>flame

<DIV></DIV>> > me if you disagree.  Constructive criticism and discussion welcome.

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > Susan

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > --------------------------------------------

<DIV></DIV>> > Susan Otcenas

<DIV></DIV>> > TEAM ESTROGEN, INC. __~o

<DIV></DIV>> > 2038 NW Aloclek Dr., Suite 220     -\_<,

<DIV></DIV>> > Hillsboro, OR 97124    (*)/'(*)

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > http://www.TeamEstrogen.com

<DIV></DIV>> > 1-877-310-4592

<DIV></DIV>> > --------------------------------------------

<DIV></DIV>> >  Cycling Apparel and Accessories for Women

<DIV></DIV>> > --------------------------------------------

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

<DIV></DIV>> > To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

<DIV></DIV>> > To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

<DIV></DIV>>To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

<DIV></DIV>>To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV></div></html>



shane.-@comcast.net

2005-01-26





--NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_2420_1106762273_0

Content-Type: text/plain

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit



Mike is right about kids and adults that are on bikes because they have to be. These are the same bike riders that don't have lights at night and do other stupid things that as a cyclist I have almost wrecked into many of times because of their erratic behavior.

I will say that education (in the schools) is the way to go. I believe that the BTA is working with cities and or schools to have programs in the fall and spring. These programs are probably the best way because they have so many benefits. One, kids get educated on the rules of the road. Two, they are getting out and exercising. Three there bikes are being checked for safety and are being setup quasi-properly for the rider.

So if you want to help "educate" bicyclist/bike riders on the rules of the road, volunteer your time with the school cycling programs.



-------------- Original message --------------



 I think the problem is not so much with "cyclists" but more with "people on

bikes". The most frequent road rule violators are kids or adults on a bike

that are clearly not a fitness riders, commuters, racers, etc. Likely many

of these people are on bikes because their privilege to drive a car has been

removed due to traffic offenses, DUII, etc. Although there are lots of

"cyclists" here there are more "people on bikes". I am not certain that

this group is approachable and it is certainly not approachable on this

list. Peer pressure might help but also might put the "peer" at risk.

Police enforcement of road rules might help. It is rare enough for police to

write cyclists tickets that it is something that has been noted on the list.

Public education programs might also help.



Mike Murray



-----Original Message-----

From: Susan Otcenas [mailto:sus-@teamestrogen.com]

Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 17:05 PM

To: CycleO-@yahoogroups.com; 'obra'; shi-@lists.riseup.net

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth your time)





Apologies in advance for cross-posting to more than one e-list.



Yesterday, the Oregonian published a Letter to the Editor that I wrote after

reading about the latest hit-and-run here on the west side. Should you care

to read it, here's a link to my letter

http://www.oregonlive.com/letters/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/editorial/110639

8840172300.xml

as well as the original article

http://www.oregonlive.com/metrowest/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/metro_west_new

s/110544844993880.xml



Predictably, yesterday evening I received an anonymous phone call from

"Jack" who wanted to talk about my letter. Luckily, he wasn't a nutcase,

and we had an hour-long conversation about the differences between the way

cyclists and motorists see the world. It was a productive conversation,

with both of us conceding a few points.



Jack's biggest beef with cyclists was the way in which cyclists often seem

to flaunt the rules of the road. Running red lights and stop signs, riding

3 abreast or in packs that do not move over when vehicles approach from

behind, failing to signal, etc. We demand "respect" and assert our

"rights", yet fail to observe the rules ourselves. Frankly, I agree with

him. Sure, motorists break the rules all the time, but it doesn't matter.

WE CAN NOT OCCUPY THE MORAL HIGH GROUND WHILE NOT OBEYING THE RULES

OURSELVES.



I want to start a discussion on a "code of conduct" of sorts.



### Note:

- If you wish to debate the evilness of autos, please start another thread.

- If you wish to debate the war in Iraq, please start another thread.

- If you wish to debate the FAIRNESS of said rules, DON'T start a thread.

Pony up the bucks to join the BTA, or better yet volunteer your time with

them to advocate for change. ###



The fact is, the rules are the rules, such as they are. If we ever wish to

gain the respect of the motorists, we have to do a better job of obeying the

rules of the road. And we have to figure out a way to politely tell our

fellow cyclists that certain behavior is not acceptable. There's a lot to

be said for peer pressure.



In response to a recent post about police ticketing cyclists who were not

stopping at a particular intersection yesterday, I would very much like to

commend the OBRA members who pointed that no e-mail "warning" should be

necessary. My favorite was:



"Remember the "three R's" of cycling:



Same road

Same rules

Same rights"



For myself, I'm making a pledge to do better. I know I can't/won't be

perfect. But I'm going to re-double my efforts to stop at every stop sign

instead of sometimes rolling through when it's "clear". I'm going to ask

friends on group rides to be more conscious of approaching vehicles so that

we can be courteous to our fellow citizens by allowing them to safely pass.

I'm going to re-read "Pedal Power, A Legal Guide for Oregon Bicyclists" so I

can be sure of my rights and responsibilities (free download available at

http://www.stc-law.com/bikepower.html ). I'm hoping that some of you will

also take some time to look at how you use your bicycle, and see if there

isn't some small way in which you can improve as well. Every action we as

individuals take is seen as representative of our entire class--especially

if it's a negative action, which reinforces what motorists already think and

expect.



So, I pose two questions:



1) What's the best way for individual cyclists to communicate with other

individual cyclists, on the road, about behaving?



And



2) What would be the most effective way for an organization (like the BTA,

OBRA, the Wheelman, etc.) to do broad outreach to the cycling community on

this issue?



I apologize if this e-mail has come across as preachy. That's not my

intent. I just think we need to figure out a way to peacefully co-exist

with motorists and this seems like a good way to start. Please don't flame

me if you disagree. Constructive criticism and discussion welcome.



Susan



--------------------------------------------

Susan Otcenas

TEAM ESTROGEN, INC. __~o

2038 NW Aloclek Dr., Suite 220 -\_<,

Hillsboro, OR 97124 (*)/'(*)



http://www.TeamEstrogen.com

1-877-310-4592

--------------------------------------------

Cycling Apparel and Accessories for Women

--------------------------------------------



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

--NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_2420_1106762273_0

Content-Type: text/html

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit



<html><body>

<DIV>

<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Mike is right about kids and adults that are on bikes because they have to be.  These are the same bike riders that don't have lights at night and do other stupid things that as a cyclist I have almost wrecked into many of times because of their erratic behavior.  <SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial Unicode MS'"><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>

<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">I will say that education (in the schools) is the way to go. I believe that the BTA is working with cities and or schools to have programs in the fall and spring.  These programs are probably the best way because they have so many benefits.  One, kids get educated on the rules of the road. Two, they are getting out and exercising.  Three there bikes are being checked for safety and are being setup quasi-properly for the rider.<o:p></o:p></P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">So if you want to help "educate" bicyclist/bike riders on the rules of the road, volunteer your time with the school cycling programs.  </SPAN></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>



--NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_2420_1106762273_0--



mike.m-@obra.org

2005-01-26



I think the problem is not so much with "cyclists" but more with "people on

bikes". The most frequent road rule violators are kids or adults on a bike

that are clearly not a fitness riders, commuters, racers, etc. Likely many

of these people are on bikes because their privilege to drive a car has been

removed due to traffic offenses, DUII, etc. Although there are lots of

"cyclists" here there are more "people on bikes". I am not certain that

this group is approachable and it is certainly not approachable on this

list. Peer pressure might help but also might put the "peer" at risk.

Police enforcement of road rules might help. It is rare enough for police to

write cyclists tickets that it is something that has been noted on the list.

Public education programs might also help.



Mike Murray



-----Original Message-----

From: Susan Otcenas [mailto:sus-@teamestrogen.com]

Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 17:05 PM

To: CycleO-@yahoogroups.com; 'obra'; shi-@lists.riseup.net

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth your time)





Apologies in advance for cross-posting to more than one e-list.



Yesterday, the Oregonian published a Letter to the Editor that I wrote after

reading about the latest hit-and-run here on the west side. Should you care

to read it, here's a link to my letter

http://www.oregonlive.com/letters/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/editorial/110639

8840172300.xml

as well as the original article

http://www.oregonlive.com/metrowest/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/metro_west_new

s/110544844993880.xml



Predictably, yesterday evening I received an anonymous phone call from

"Jack" who wanted to talk about my letter. Luckily, he wasn't a nutcase,

and we had an hour-long conversation about the differences between the way

cyclists and motorists see the world. It was a productive conversation,

with both of us conceding a few points.



Jack's biggest beef with cyclists was the way in which cyclists often seem

to flaunt the rules of the road. Running red lights and stop signs, riding

3 abreast or in packs that do not move over when vehicles approach from

behind, failing to signal, etc. We demand "respect" and assert our

"rights", yet fail to observe the rules ourselves. Frankly, I agree with

him. Sure, motorists break the rules all the time, but it doesn't matter.

WE CAN NOT OCCUPY THE MORAL HIGH GROUND WHILE NOT OBEYING THE RULES

OURSELVES.



I want to start a discussion on a "code of conduct" of sorts.



### Note:

- If you wish to debate the evilness of autos, please start another thread.

- If you wish to debate the war in Iraq, please start another thread.

- If you wish to debate the FAIRNESS of said rules, DON'T start a thread.

Pony up the bucks to join the BTA, or better yet volunteer your time with

them to advocate for change. ###



The fact is, the rules are the rules, such as they are. If we ever wish to

gain the respect of the motorists, we have to do a better job of obeying the

rules of the road. And we have to figure out a way to politely tell our

fellow cyclists that certain behavior is not acceptable. There's a lot to

be said for peer pressure.



In response to a recent post about police ticketing cyclists who were not

stopping at a particular intersection yesterday, I would very much like to

commend the OBRA members who pointed that no e-mail "warning" should be

necessary. My favorite was:



"Remember the "three R's" of cycling:



        Same road

        Same rules

        Same rights"



For myself, I'm making a pledge to do better. I know I can't/won't be

perfect. But I'm going to re-double my efforts to stop at every stop sign

instead of sometimes rolling through when it's "clear". I'm going to ask

friends on group rides to be more conscious of approaching vehicles so that

we can be courteous to our fellow citizens by allowing them to safely pass.

I'm going to re-read "Pedal Power, A Legal Guide for Oregon Bicyclists" so I

can be sure of my rights and responsibilities (free download available at

http://www.stc-law.com/bikepower.html ).   I'm hoping that some of you will

also take some time to look at how you use your bicycle, and see if there

isn't some small way in which you can improve as well. Every action we as

individuals take is seen as representative of our entire class--especially

if it's a negative action, which reinforces what motorists already think and

expect.



So, I pose two questions:



1) What's the best way for individual cyclists to communicate with other

individual cyclists, on the road, about behaving?



And



2) What would be the most effective way for an organization (like the BTA,

OBRA, the Wheelman, etc.) to do broad outreach to the cycling community on

this issue?



I apologize if this e-mail has come across as preachy. That's not my

intent. I just think we need to figure out a way to peacefully co-exist

with motorists and this seems like a good way to start. Please don't flame

me if you disagree. Constructive criticism and discussion welcome.



Susan



--------------------------------------------

Susan Otcenas                  

TEAM ESTROGEN, INC. __~o

2038 NW Aloclek Dr., Suite 220     -\_<,

Hillsboro, OR 97124    (*)/'(*)



http://www.TeamEstrogen.com

1-877-310-4592                

--------------------------------------------

Cycling Apparel and Accessories for Women

--------------------------------------------



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



shane.-@comcast.net

2005-01-26





--NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_15041_1106754423_0

Content-Type: text/plain

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit



If you call the department that handles lights for your city, they can adjust the sensors. Weather seems to affect them so some times they need to be recalibrated with the change of seasons. I don't know about other cities but Corvallis is very good about this. They are usually out in a week and have it fixed.



-------------- Original message --------------



 A substantial number of red lights I encounter are NOT designed to sense

bikes. Obeying the law (waiting for the light to turn green) is pretty hard

to do ... after you've waited through several greens on the cross traffic.

Cars in adjacent lanes occassionally seem perturbed when bikes run the red.

They've never had to wait through several greens.



Jerry Winter



----- Original Message -----

From: "ron strasser"

To: ; ; "'obra'"

;

Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 7:54 PM

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth your

time)





 I agree that the bottom line is for us cyclists to not break the rules of

the road (especially in busy urban areas and country roads that have poor

sightlines). The auto drivers that see rules being disobeyed or have to

deal with it will not remember the other riders that are riding properly.

I

urge cyclists to keep the respect of most motor vehicle drivers by being

courteous and riding in a predictable manner. I know that we cannot stop a

driver from breaking the rules of the road...but two wrongs do not make a

right. Even when you are in a hurry on your rides, you make many

decisions

based on your own safety. I would urge all to consider obeying the rules

of

the road as a personal safety decision... in the short and long term.

ron strasser

----- Original Message -----

From: "Susan Otcenas"

To: ; "'obra'" ;



Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 5:05 PM

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth your time)





 Apologies in advance for cross-posting to more than one e-list.



Yesterday, the Oregonian published a Letter to the Editor that I wrote

after

 reading about the latest hit-and-run here on the west side. Should you

care

 to read it, here's a link to my letter

http://www.oregonlive.com/letters/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/editorial/110639

 8840172300.xml

as well as the original article

http://www.oregonlive.com/metrowest/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/metro_west_new

 s/110544844993880.xml



Predictably, yesterday evening I received an anonymous phone call from

"Jack" who wanted to talk about my letter. Luckily, he wasn't a nutcase,

and we had an hour-long conversation about the differences between the

way

cyclists and motorists see the world. It was a productive conversation,

with both of us conceding a few points.



Jack's biggest beef with cyclists was the way in which cyclists often

seem

to flaunt the rules of the road. Running red lights and stop signs,

riding

 3 abreast or in packs that do not move over when vehicles approach from

behind, failing to signal, etc. We demand "respect" and assert our

"rights", yet fail to observe the rules ourselves. Frankly, I agree with

him. Sure, motorists break the rules all the time, but it doesn't

matter.

WE CAN NOT OCCUPY THE MORAL HIGH GROUND WHILE NOT OBEYING THE RULES

OURSELVES.



I want to start a discussion on a "code of conduct" of sorts.



### Note:

- If you wish to debate the evilness of autos, please start another

thread.

 - If you wish to debate the war in Iraq, please start another thread.

- If you wish to debate the FAIRNESS of said rules, DON'T start a thread.

Pony up the bucks to join the BTA, or better yet volunteer your time with

them to advocate for change.

###



The fact is, the rules are the rules, such as they are. If we ever wish

to

 gain the respect of the motorists, we have to do a better job of obeying

the

 rules of the road. And we have to figure out a way to politely tell our

fellow cyclists that certain behavior is not acceptable. There's a lot

to

be said for peer pressure.



In response to a recent post about police ticketing cyclists who were not

stopping at a particular intersection yesterday, I would very much like

to

commend the OBRA members who pointed that no e-mail "warning" should be

necessary. My favorite was:



"Remember the "three R's" of cycling:



Same road

Same rules

Same rights"



For myself, I'm making a pledge to do better. I know I can't/won't be

perfect. But I'm going to re-double my efforts to stop at every stop

sign

instead of sometimes rolling through when it's "clear". I'm going to ask

friends on group rides to be more conscious of approaching vehicles so

that

 we can be courteous to our fellow citizens by allowing them to safely

pass.

 I'm going to re-read "Pedal Power, A Legal Guide for Oregon Bicyclists"

so

I

 can be sure of my rights and responsibilities (free download available at

http://www.stc-law.com/bikepower.html ). I'm hoping that some of you

will

 also take some time to look at how you use your bicycle, and see if there

isn't some small way in which you can improve as well. Every action we

as

individuals take is seen as representative of our entire

class--especially

if it's a negative action, which reinforces what motorists already think

and

 expect.



So, I pose two questions:



1) What's the best way for individual cyclists to communicate with other

individual cyclists, on the road, about behaving?



And



2) What would be the most effective way for an organization (like the

BTA,

OBRA, the Wheelman, etc.) to do broad outreach to the cycling community

on

this issue?



I apologize if this e-mail has come across as preachy. That's not my

intent. I just think we need to figure out a way to peacefully co-exist

with motorists and this seems like a good way to start. Please don't

flame

 me if you disagree. Constructive criticism and discussion welcome.



Susan



--------------------------------------------

Susan Otcenas

TEAM ESTROGEN, INC. __~o

2038 NW Aloclek Dr., Suite 220 -\_<,

Hillsboro, OR 97124 (*)/'(*)



http://www.TeamEstrogen.com

1-877-310-4592

--------------------------------------------

Cycling Apparel and Accessories for Women

--------------------------------------------



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

--NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_15041_1106754423_0

Content-Type: text/html

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit



<html><body>

<DIV>If you call the department that handles lights for your city, they can adjust the sensors.  Weather seems to affect them so some times they need to be recalibrated with the change of seasons.  I don't know about other cities but Corvallis is very good about this.  They are usually out in a week and have it fixed.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>



--NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_15041_1106754423_0--



Dan H

2005-01-25









 A substantial number of red lights I encounter are NOT designed to sense

bikes.



That can be a problem. Usually a motorist will pull up behind me but stop

too far back to trigger the signal thinking they are being courtious. I

look back and becon them forward pointing at the road immediatly behind me

but most of the time I just get quizical looks like that RCA dog and they

just sit there so I increase the amplitude of my signal with a big wave of

my arm, like, "come here! See the big loop in the road? it's a metal

detector! Look!" About one in five will figure it out and pull forward

enough to trip the signal. I think a lot people still think the signal uses

a pressure pad. They don't. That went out with the 70's.

If the motorist does not trip the signal in 2 cycles I'm forced to make an

illegal manuever to get things going. Sometimes you just have to.

 

----- Original Message -----

From: "ron strasser" <ron-@spiritone.com>

To: <sus-@teamestrogen.com>; <CycleO-@yahoogroups.com>; "'obra'"

<ob-@topica.com>; <shi-@lists.riseup.net>

Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 7:54 PM

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth your

time)





 I agree that the bottom line is for us cyclists to not break the rules of

the road (especially in busy urban areas and country roads that have

poor

  sightlines). The auto drivers that see rules being disobeyed or have to

deal with it will not remember the other riders that are riding

properly.

  I

urge cyclists to keep the respect of most motor vehicle drivers by being

courteous and riding in a predictable manner. I know that we cannot stop

a

  driver from breaking the rules of the road...but two wrongs do not make

a

  right. Even when you are in a hurry on your rides, you make many

decisions

based on your own safety. I would urge all to consider obeying the

rules

  of

the road as a personal safety decision... in the short and long term.

ron strasser

----- Original Message -----

From: "Susan Otcenas" <sus-@teamestrogen.com>

To: <CycleO-@yahoogroups.com>; "'obra'" <ob-@topica.com>;

<shi-@lists.riseup.net>

Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 5:05 PM

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth your

time)

  



 Apologies in advance for cross-posting to more than one e-list.



Yesterday, the Oregonian published a Letter to the Editor that I wrote

after

 reading about the latest hit-and-run here on the west side. Should you

care

 to read it, here's a link to my letter

http://www.oregonlive.com/letters/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/editorial/110639

   8840172300.xml

as well as the original article

http://www.oregonlive.com/metrowest/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/metro_west_new

   s/110544844993880.xml



Predictably, yesterday evening I received an anonymous phone call from

"Jack" who wanted to talk about my letter. Luckily, he wasn't a

nutcase,

   and we had an hour-long conversation about the differences between the

way

cyclists and motorists see the world. It was a productive

conversation,

   with both of us conceding a few points.



Jack's biggest beef with cyclists was the way in which cyclists often

seem

to flaunt the rules of the road. Running red lights and stop signs,

riding

 3 abreast or in packs that do not move over when vehicles approach from

behind, failing to signal, etc. We demand "respect" and assert our

"rights", yet fail to observe the rules ourselves. Frankly, I agree

with

   him. Sure, motorists break the rules all the time, but it doesn't

matter.

WE CAN NOT OCCUPY THE MORAL HIGH GROUND WHILE NOT OBEYING THE RULES

OURSELVES.



I want to start a discussion on a "code of conduct" of sorts.



### Note:

- If you wish to debate the evilness of autos, please start another

thread.

 - If you wish to debate the war in Iraq, please start another thread.

- If you wish to debate the FAIRNESS of said rules, DON'T start a

thread.

   Pony up the bucks to join the BTA, or better yet volunteer your time

with

   them to advocate for change.

###



The fact is, the rules are the rules, such as they are. If we ever

wish

  to

 gain the respect of the motorists, we have to do a better job of

obeying

  the

 rules of the road. And we have to figure out a way to politely tell

our

   fellow cyclists that certain behavior is not acceptable. There's a lot

to

be said for peer pressure.



In response to a recent post about police ticketing cyclists who were

not

   stopping at a particular intersection yesterday, I would very much like

to

commend the OBRA members who pointed that no e-mail "warning" should be

necessary. My favorite was:



"Remember the "three R's" of cycling:



         Same road

         Same rules

         Same rights"



For myself, I'm making a pledge to do better. I know I can't/won't be

perfect. But I'm going to re-double my efforts to stop at every stop

sign

instead of sometimes rolling through when it's "clear". I'm going to

ask

   friends on group rides to be more conscious of approaching vehicles so

that

 we can be courteous to our fellow citizens by allowing them to safely

pass.

 I'm going to re-read "Pedal Power, A Legal Guide for Oregon Bicyclists"

so

I

 can be sure of my rights and responsibilities (free download available

at

   http://www.stc-law.com/bikepower.html ).   I'm hoping that some of you

will

 also take some time to look at how you use your bicycle, and see if

there

   isn't some small way in which you can improve as well. Every action we

as

individuals take is seen as representative of our entire

class--especially

if it's a negative action, which reinforces what motorists already

think

  and

 expect.



So, I pose two questions:



1) What's the best way for individual cyclists to communicate with

other

   individual cyclists, on the road, about behaving?



And



2) What would be the most effective way for an organization (like the

BTA,

OBRA, the Wheelman, etc.) to do broad outreach to the cycling community

on

this issue?



I apologize if this e-mail has come across as preachy. That's not my

intent. I just think we need to figure out a way to peacefully

co-exist

   with motorists and this seems like a good way to start. Please don't

flame

 me if you disagree. Constructive criticism and discussion welcome.



Susan



--------------------------------------------

Susan Otcenas

TEAM ESTROGEN, INC. __~o

2038 NW Aloclek Dr., Suite 220     -\_<,

Hillsboro, OR 97124    (*)/'(*)



http://www.TeamEstrogen.com

1-877-310-4592

--------------------------------------------

Cycling Apparel and Accessories for Women

--------------------------------------------



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

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Dan H

2005-01-25



There are people who cycle for sport and there are people who ride bikes.

Don't go all "literal" on me now and don't ask why "literal" is in quotes.



----- Original Message -----

From: "ricky roma" <r1cky-@hotmail.com>

To: <ob-@topica.com>

Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 8:27 PM

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth your

time)





 

I'm interested what your use of quotes around "cyclists" was supposed to

infer.



It sounds like you have a specific definition for what a true cyclist

(sans quotes) is. Care to enlighten us?





Dan H wrote:

 

Unfortunatly, most of the "cyclists" that need to see this are not on

the

list.



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



Jerry Winter

2005-01-25



A substantial number of red lights I encounter are NOT designed to sense

bikes. Obeying the law (waiting for the light to turn green) is pretty hard

to do ... after you've waited through several greens on the cross traffic.

Cars in adjacent lanes occassionally seem perturbed when bikes run the red.

They've never had to wait through several greens.



Jerry Winter



----- Original Message -----

From: "ron strasser" <ron-@spiritone.com>

To: <sus-@teamestrogen.com>; <CycleO-@yahoogroups.com>; "'obra'"

<ob-@topica.com>; <shi-@lists.riseup.net>

Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 7:54 PM

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth your

time)





 I agree that the bottom line is for us cyclists to not break the rules of

the road (especially in busy urban areas and country roads that have poor

sightlines). The auto drivers that see rules being disobeyed or have to

deal with it will not remember the other riders that are riding properly.

I

urge cyclists to keep the respect of most motor vehicle drivers by being

courteous and riding in a predictable manner. I know that we cannot stop a

driver from breaking the rules of the road...but two wrongs do not make a

right. Even when you are in a hurry on your rides, you make many

decisions

based on your own safety. I would urge all to consider obeying the rules

of

the road as a personal safety decision... in the short and long term.

ron strasser

----- Original Message -----

From: "Susan Otcenas" <sus-@teamestrogen.com>

To: <CycleO-@yahoogroups.com>; "'obra'" <ob-@topica.com>;

<shi-@lists.riseup.net>

Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 5:05 PM

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth your time)





 Apologies in advance for cross-posting to more than one e-list.



Yesterday, the Oregonian published a Letter to the Editor that I wrote

after

 reading about the latest hit-and-run here on the west side. Should you

care

 to read it, here's a link to my letter

http://www.oregonlive.com/letters/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/editorial/110639

 8840172300.xml

as well as the original article

http://www.oregonlive.com/metrowest/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/metro_west_new

 s/110544844993880.xml



Predictably, yesterday evening I received an anonymous phone call from

"Jack" who wanted to talk about my letter. Luckily, he wasn't a nutcase,

and we had an hour-long conversation about the differences between the

way

cyclists and motorists see the world. It was a productive conversation,

with both of us conceding a few points.



Jack's biggest beef with cyclists was the way in which cyclists often

seem

to flaunt the rules of the road. Running red lights and stop signs,

riding

 3 abreast or in packs that do not move over when vehicles approach from

behind, failing to signal, etc. We demand "respect" and assert our

"rights", yet fail to observe the rules ourselves. Frankly, I agree with

him. Sure, motorists break the rules all the time, but it doesn't

matter.

WE CAN NOT OCCUPY THE MORAL HIGH GROUND WHILE NOT OBEYING THE RULES

OURSELVES.



I want to start a discussion on a "code of conduct" of sorts.



### Note:

- If you wish to debate the evilness of autos, please start another

thread.

 - If you wish to debate the war in Iraq, please start another thread.

- If you wish to debate the FAIRNESS of said rules, DON'T start a thread.

Pony up the bucks to join the BTA, or better yet volunteer your time with

them to advocate for change.

###



The fact is, the rules are the rules, such as they are. If we ever wish

to

 gain the respect of the motorists, we have to do a better job of obeying

the

 rules of the road. And we have to figure out a way to politely tell our

fellow cyclists that certain behavior is not acceptable. There's a lot

to

be said for peer pressure.



In response to a recent post about police ticketing cyclists who were not

stopping at a particular intersection yesterday, I would very much like

to

commend the OBRA members who pointed that no e-mail "warning" should be

necessary. My favorite was:



"Remember the "three R's" of cycling:



         Same road

         Same rules

         Same rights"



For myself, I'm making a pledge to do better. I know I can't/won't be

perfect. But I'm going to re-double my efforts to stop at every stop

sign

instead of sometimes rolling through when it's "clear". I'm going to ask

friends on group rides to be more conscious of approaching vehicles so

that

 we can be courteous to our fellow citizens by allowing them to safely

pass.

 I'm going to re-read "Pedal Power, A Legal Guide for Oregon Bicyclists"

so

I

 can be sure of my rights and responsibilities (free download available at

http://www.stc-law.com/bikepower.html ).   I'm hoping that some of you

will

 also take some time to look at how you use your bicycle, and see if there

isn't some small way in which you can improve as well. Every action we

as

individuals take is seen as representative of our entire

class--especially

if it's a negative action, which reinforces what motorists already think

and

 expect.



So, I pose two questions:



1) What's the best way for individual cyclists to communicate with other

individual cyclists, on the road, about behaving?



And



2) What would be the most effective way for an organization (like the

BTA,

OBRA, the Wheelman, etc.) to do broad outreach to the cycling community

on

this issue?



I apologize if this e-mail has come across as preachy. That's not my

intent. I just think we need to figure out a way to peacefully co-exist

with motorists and this seems like a good way to start. Please don't

flame

 me if you disagree. Constructive criticism and discussion welcome.



Susan



--------------------------------------------

Susan Otcenas

TEAM ESTROGEN, INC. __~o

2038 NW Aloclek Dr., Suite 220     -\_<,

Hillsboro, OR 97124    (*)/'(*)



http://www.TeamEstrogen.com

1-877-310-4592

--------------------------------------------

Cycling Apparel and Accessories for Women

--------------------------------------------



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



Matthew Wolpert

2005-01-25



I am cutting and pasting the following post from the "Shift Discussion

List", without the original author's permission, so I have redacted

his name, enjoy:



"

=v= The very fact that hit-and-run driving would lead to a

discussion of a cyclists' "code of conduct" speaks volumes.

"



Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 18:58:15 -0800

Subject: Re: [shift] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth your time)

To: shi-@lists.riseup.net



=v= I think you're barking up the wrong tree. Many bicycle

advocacy groups have taken this tack for the last 35 years

or so. I think we've seen the practical limits of this sort

of approach. But even if you were to somehow find a way to

get 99.9% of bicyclists to strictly adhere to the traffic

code, the .1% who didn't would still be held up as an example

of "those eeevil lawbreaking bikers."



=v= Why? Because this approach doesn't address the root issue:

we are a minority. Motorists *already* break more laws more

frequently and with far costlier and deadlier results, but this

has become so endemic and epidemic that it's barely noticed.

Bicyclists, on the other hand, are seen as inscrutable "others,"

probably kind of crazy. So the minor misdeeds of bicyclists are

seen as the end of civilization while motorized carnage becomes

background noise.



=v= Demanding our place on the road also means demanding that

we be regarded as individuals, just as motorists are. When a

motorist blows a STOP sign, do other motorists get their ears

bent about "you scofflaw car drivers?" Is the AAA held to task

because someone goes 30 MPH over the speed limit? The very idea

is ludicrous. We should demand no less than full acceptance as

individual human beings.



=v= I actually do adhere to traffic codes, and you know what?

Plenty of motorists don't like it. What they want is me out of

their way, so they can speed. Many of them don't even *know*

the law. Hell, many police officers don't even know it.



=v= "The three Rs" (and "Cyclists fare best when they act and

are treated as drivers of vehicles.") are fine in theory, but

I've noticed a one-sidedness in campaigns to put them into

practice. The wanton lawless of "drivers of vehicles" is

overlooked. Their less-than-same rules and more-than-same

rights don't even enter the equation.



=v= The very fact that hit-and-run driving would lead to a

discussion of a cyclists' "code of conduct" speaks volumes.



ricky roma

2005-01-25





I'm interested what your use of quotes around "cyclists" was supposed to

infer.



It sounds like you have a specific definition for what a true cyclist

(sans quotes) is. Care to enlighten us?





Dan H wrote:

 

Unfortunatly, most of the "cyclists" that need to see this are not on

the

list.



ricky roma

2005-01-25



Let me just start by saying that some of us don't want to (or pretend

to) "OCCUPY THE MORAL HIGH GROUND".



While I will punch the occasional car for trying to run me over, I do

try to obey the rules of the road most of the time.



There are only a few times I usually don't:



1 - If I'm riding downtown I will split the lane or ride to the right to

pass lines of cars. One of the perks of riding a bike is not having to

sit in traffic (yes I know we _are_ traffic), so I'm not going to 'sit

behind' a 'huge line of cars' and 'suck exhaust fumes' just to 'obey'

the 'rules of the road' (liberal use of quotes a la Bennett Brauer).



2 - If I'm sitting at a stop sign or stop light and there is no one

around, I will ride through it - only if it's clear - I will never go

through a stop sign or light if there are any cars at the intersection.

Might I also say that I've had many car drivers wave me through stop

signs. Very nice.



I find it fascinating that some motorists would be 'outraged' about

cyclists running red lights, but are not equally as 'outraged' about

cars not obeying traffic laws. I see city buses run red lights on a

daily basis (literally). That's much more dangerous than me on my bike

rolling through a red light if it's clear.



I can also guarantee that most motorists would be far more annoyed if I

were making a complete stop (putting foot down) at every stop sign while

they had to wait behind me.



I also don't understand this:

"Sure, motorists break the rules all the time, but it doesn't matter."



I would have to disagree. I think it *does* matter as there is a huge

double standard in place. Some of the same motorists that complain about

cyclists blowing stop signs are routinely speeding through residential

neighborhoods. Again, far more dangerous than pretty much anything I

could ever do on a bike.



rr

http://livewrong.net





Susan Otcenas wrote:

 

Apologies in advance for cross-posting to more than one e-list.



Yesterday, the Oregonian published a Letter to the Editor that I wrote

after

reading about the latest hit-and-run here on the west side. Should you

care

to read it, here's a link to my letter

http://www.oregonlive.com/letters/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/editorial/110639



8840172300.xml

as well as the original article

http://www.oregonlive.com/metrowest/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/metro_west_new



s/110544844993880.xml



Predictably, yesterday evening I received an anonymous phone call from

"Jack" who wanted to talk about my letter. Luckily, he wasn't a

nutcase,

and we had an hour-long conversation about the differences between the

way

cyclists and motorists see the world. It was a productive conversation,

with both of us conceding a few points.



Jack's biggest beef with cyclists was the way in which cyclists often

seem

to flaunt the rules of the road. Running red lights and stop signs,

riding

3 abreast or in packs that do not move over when vehicles approach from

behind, failing to signal, etc. We demand "respect" and assert our

"rights", yet fail to observe the rules ourselves. Frankly, I agree

with

him. Sure, motorists break the rules all the time, but it doesn't

matter.

WE CAN NOT OCCUPY THE MORAL HIGH GROUND WHILE NOT OBEYING THE RULES

OURSELVES.



I want to start a discussion on a "code of conduct" of sorts.



### Note:

- If you wish to debate the evilness of autos, please start another

thread.

- If you wish to debate the war in Iraq, please start another thread.

- If you wish to debate the FAIRNESS of said rules, DON'T start a

thread.

Pony up the bucks to join the BTA, or better yet volunteer your time

with

them to advocate for change.

###



The fact is, the rules are the rules, such as they are. If we ever wish

to

gain the respect of the motorists, we have to do a better job of obeying

the

rules of the road. And we have to figure out a way to politely tell our

fellow cyclists that certain behavior is not acceptable. There's a lot

to

be said for peer pressure.



In response to a recent post about police ticketing cyclists who were

not

stopping at a particular intersection yesterday, I would very much like

to

commend the OBRA members who pointed that no e-mail "warning" should be

necessary. My favorite was:



"Remember the "three R's" of cycling:



         Same road

         Same rules

         Same rights"



For myself, I'm making a pledge to do better. I know I can't/won't be

perfect. But I'm going to re-double my efforts to stop at every stop

sign

instead of sometimes rolling through when it's "clear". I'm going to

ask

friends on group rides to be more conscious of approaching vehicles so

that

we can be courteous to our fellow citizens by allowing them to safely

pass.

I'm going to re-read "Pedal Power, A Legal Guide for Oregon Bicyclists"

so I

can be sure of my rights and responsibilities (free download available

at

http://www.stc-law.com/bikepower.html ).   I'm hoping that some of you

will

also take some time to look at how you use your bicycle, and see if

there

isn't some small way in which you can improve as well. Every action we

as

individuals take is seen as representative of our entire

class--especially

if it's a negative action, which reinforces what motorists already think

and

expect.



So, I pose two questions:



1) What's the best way for individual cyclists to communicate with other

individual cyclists, on the road, about behaving?



And



2) What would be the most effective way for an organization (like the

BTA,

OBRA, the Wheelman, etc.) to do broad outreach to the cycling community

on

this issue?



I apologize if this e-mail has come across as preachy. That's not my

intent. I just think we need to figure out a way to peacefully co-exist

with motorists and this seems like a good way to start. Please don't

flame

me if you disagree. Constructive criticism and discussion welcome.



Susan



--------------------------------------------

Susan Otcenas                  

TEAM ESTROGEN, INC. __~o

2038 NW Aloclek Dr., Suite 220     -\_<,

Hillsboro, OR 97124    (*)/'(*)



http://www.TeamEstrogen.com

1-877-310-4592                

--------------------------------------------

Cycling Apparel and Accessories for Women

--------------------------------------------



Collis, Randall (EUGENE OE 322)

2005-01-25



This is a multi-part message in MIME format.



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charset="iso-8859-1"

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OK mom!

--------------------------

Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld





-----Original Message-----

From: ron strasser <ron-@spiritone.com>

To: sus-@teamestrogen.com <sus-@teamestrogen.com>; CycleO-@yahoogroups.com <CycleO-@yahoogroups.com>; 'obra' <ob-@topica.com>; shi-@lists.riseup.net <shi-@lists.riseup.net>

Sent: Tue Jan 25 22:54:13 2005

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth your time)



I agree that the bottom line is for us cyclists to not break the rules of

the road (especially in busy urban areas and country roads that have poor

sightlines). The auto drivers that see rules being disobeyed or have to

deal with it will not remember the other riders that are riding properly. I

urge cyclists to keep the respect of most motor vehicle drivers by being

courteous and riding in a predictable manner. I know that we cannot stop a

driver from breaking the rules of the road...but two wrongs do not make a

right. Even when you are in a hurry on your rides, you make many decisions

based on your own safety. I would urge all to consider obeying the rules of

the road as a personal safety decision... in the short and long term.

ron strasser

----- Original Message -----

From: "Susan Otcenas" <sus-@teamestrogen.com>

To: <CycleO-@yahoogroups.com>; "'obra'" <ob-@topica.com>;

<shi-@lists.riseup.net>

Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 5:05 PM

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth your time)





 Apologies in advance for cross-posting to more than one e-list.



Yesterday, the Oregonian published a Letter to the Editor that I wrote

after

 reading about the latest hit-and-run here on the west side. Should you

care

 to read it, here's a link to my letter

http://www.oregonlive.com/letters/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/editorial/110639

 8840172300.xml

as well as the original article

http://www.oregonlive.com/metrowest/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/metro_west_new

 s/110544844993880.xml



Predictably, yesterday evening I received an anonymous phone call from

"Jack" who wanted to talk about my letter. Luckily, he wasn't a nutcase,

and we had an hour-long conversation about the differences between the way

cyclists and motorists see the world. It was a productive conversation,

with both of us conceding a few points.



Jack's biggest beef with cyclists was the way in which cyclists often seem

to flaunt the rules of the road. Running red lights and stop signs,

riding

 3 abreast or in packs that do not move over when vehicles approach from

behind, failing to signal, etc. We demand "respect" and assert our

"rights", yet fail to observe the rules ourselves. Frankly, I agree with

him. Sure, motorists break the rules all the time, but it doesn't matter.

WE CAN NOT OCCUPY THE MORAL HIGH GROUND WHILE NOT OBEYING THE RULES

OURSELVES.



I want to start a discussion on a "code of conduct" of sorts.



### Note:

- If you wish to debate the evilness of autos, please start another

thread.

 - If you wish to debate the war in Iraq, please start another thread.

- If you wish to debate the FAIRNESS of said rules, DON'T start a thread.

Pony up the bucks to join the BTA, or better yet volunteer your time with

them to advocate for change.

###



The fact is, the rules are the rules, such as they are. If we ever wish

to

 gain the respect of the motorists, we have to do a better job of obeying

the

 rules of the road. And we have to figure out a way to politely tell our

fellow cyclists that certain behavior is not acceptable. There's a lot to

be said for peer pressure.



In response to a recent post about police ticketing cyclists who were not

stopping at a particular intersection yesterday, I would very much like to

commend the OBRA members who pointed that no e-mail "warning" should be

necessary. My favorite was:



"Remember the "three R's" of cycling:



         Same road

         Same rules

         Same rights"



For myself, I'm making a pledge to do better. I know I can't/won't be

perfect. But I'm going to re-double my efforts to stop at every stop sign

instead of sometimes rolling through when it's "clear". I'm going to ask

friends on group rides to be more conscious of approaching vehicles so

that

 we can be courteous to our fellow citizens by allowing them to safely

pass.

 I'm going to re-read "Pedal Power, A Legal Guide for Oregon Bicyclists" so

I

 can be sure of my rights and responsibilities (free download available at

http://www.stc-law.com/bikepower.html ).   I'm hoping that some of you

will

 also take some time to look at how you use your bicycle, and see if there

isn't some small way in which you can improve as well. Every action we as

individuals take is seen as representative of our entire class--especially

if it's a negative action, which reinforces what motorists already think

and

 expect.



So, I pose two questions:



1) What's the best way for individual cyclists to communicate with other

individual cyclists, on the road, about behaving?



And



2) What would be the most effective way for an organization (like the BTA,

OBRA, the Wheelman, etc.) to do broad outreach to the cycling community on

this issue?



I apologize if this e-mail has come across as preachy. That's not my

intent. I just think we need to figure out a way to peacefully co-exist

with motorists and this seems like a good way to start. Please don't

flame

 me if you disagree. Constructive criticism and discussion welcome.



Susan



--------------------------------------------

Susan Otcenas

TEAM ESTROGEN, INC. __~o

2038 NW Aloclek Dr., Suite 220     -\_<,

Hillsboro, OR 97124    (*)/'(*)



http://www.TeamEstrogen.com

1-877-310-4592

--------------------------------------------

Cycling Apparel and Accessories for Women

--------------------------------------------



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

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<P><FONT SIZE=2>OK mom!<BR>

--------------------------<BR>

Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld<BR>

<BR>

<BR>

-----Original Message-----<BR>

From: ron strasser <ron-@spiritone.com><BR>

To: sus-@teamestrogen.com <sus-@teamestrogen.com>; CycleO-@yahoogroups.com <CycleO-@yahoogroups.com>; 'obra' <ob-@topica.com>; shi-@lists.riseup.net <shi-@lists.riseup.net><BR>

Sent: Tue Jan 25 22:54:13 2005<BR>

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long,  but hopefully worth your time)<BR>

<BR>

I agree that the bottom line is for us cyclists to not break the rules of<BR>

the road (especially in busy urban areas and country roads that have poor<BR>

sightlines).  The auto drivers that see rules being disobeyed or have to<BR>

deal with it will not remember the other riders that are riding properly.  I<BR>

urge cyclists to keep the respect of most motor vehicle drivers by being<BR>

courteous and riding in a predictable manner. I know that we cannot stop a<BR>

driver from breaking the rules of the road...but two wrongs do not make a<BR>

right.  Even when you are in a hurry on your rides, you make many decisions<BR>

based on your own safety.  I would urge all to consider obeying the rules of<BR>

the road as a personal safety decision... in the short and long term.<BR>

ron strasser<BR>

----- Original Message -----<BR>

From: "Susan Otcenas" <sus-@teamestrogen.com><BR>

To: <CycleO-@yahoogroups.com>; "'obra'" <ob-@topica.com>;<BR>

<shi-@lists.riseup.net><BR>

Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 5:05 PM<BR>

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth your time)<BR>

<BR>

<BR>

 Apologies in advance for cross-posting to more than one e-list.<BR>

<BR>

Yesterday, the Oregonian published a Letter to the Editor that I wrote<BR>

after<BR>

 reading about the latest hit-and-run here on the west side.  Should you<BR>

care<BR>

 to read it, here's a link to my letter<BR>

<BR>

<A HREF="http://www.oregonlive.com/letters/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/editorial/110639">http://www.oregonlive.com/letters/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/editorial/110639</A><BR>

 8840172300.xml<BR>

as well as the original article<BR>

<BR>

<A HREF="http://www.oregonlive.com/metrowest/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/metro_west_new">http://www.oregonlive.com/metrowest/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/metro_west_new</A><BR>

 s/110544844993880.xml<BR>

<BR>

Predictably, yesterday evening I received an anonymous phone call from<BR>

"Jack" who wanted to talk about my letter.  Luckily, he wasn't a nutcase,<BR>

and we had an hour-long conversation about the differences between the way<BR>

cyclists and motorists see the world.  It was a productive conversation,<BR>

with both of us conceding a few points.<BR>

<BR>

Jack's biggest beef with cyclists was the way in which cyclists often seem<BR>

to flaunt the rules of the road.  Running red lights and stop signs,<BR>

riding<BR>

 3 abreast or in packs that do not move over when vehicles approach from<BR>

behind, failing to signal, etc.  We demand "respect" and assert our<BR>

"rights", yet fail to observe the rules ourselves.  Frankly, I agree with<BR>

him.  Sure, motorists break the rules all the time, but it doesn't matter.<BR>

WE CAN NOT OCCUPY THE MORAL HIGH GROUND WHILE NOT OBEYING THE RULES<BR>

OURSELVES.<BR>

<BR>

I want to start a discussion on a "code of conduct" of sorts.<BR>

<BR>

### Note:<BR>

- If you wish to debate the evilness of autos, please start another<BR>

thread.<BR>

 - If you wish to debate the war in Iraq, please start another thread.<BR>

- If you wish to debate the FAIRNESS of said rules, DON'T start a thread.<BR>

Pony up the bucks to join the BTA, or better yet volunteer your time with<BR>

them to advocate for change.<BR>

###<BR>

<BR>

The fact is, the rules are the rules, such as they are.  If we ever wish<BR>

to<BR>

 gain the respect of the motorists, we have to do a better job of obeying<BR>

the<BR>

 rules of the road.  And we have to figure out a way to politely tell our<BR>

fellow cyclists that certain behavior is not acceptable.  There's a lot to<BR>

be said for peer pressure.<BR>

<BR>

In response to a recent post about police ticketing cyclists who were not<BR>

stopping at a particular intersection yesterday, I would very much like to<BR>

commend the OBRA members who pointed that no e-mail "warning" should be<BR>

necessary.  My favorite was:<BR>

<BR>

"Remember the "three R's" of cycling:<BR>

<BR>

         Same road<BR>

         Same rules<BR>

         Same rights"<BR>

<BR>

For myself, I'm making a pledge to do better.  I know I can't/won't be<BR>

perfect.  But I'm going to re-double my efforts to stop at every stop sign<BR>

instead of sometimes rolling through when it's "clear".  I'm going to ask<BR>

friends on group rides to be more conscious of approaching vehicles so<BR>

that<BR>

 we can be courteous to our fellow citizens by allowing them to safely<BR>

pass.<BR>

 I'm going to re-read "Pedal Power, A Legal Guide for Oregon Bicyclists" so<BR>

I<BR>

 can be sure of my rights and responsibilities (free download available at<BR>

<A HREF="http://www.stc-law.com/bikepower.html">http://www.stc-law.com/bikepower.html</A> ).   I'm hoping that some of you<BR>

will<BR>

 also take some time to look at how you use your bicycle, and see if there<BR>

isn't some small way in which you can improve as well.  Every action we as<BR>

individuals take is seen as representative of our entire class--especially<BR>

if it's a negative action, which reinforces what motorists already think<BR>

and<BR>

 expect.<BR>

<BR>

So, I pose two questions:<BR>

<BR>

1) What's the best way for individual cyclists to communicate with other<BR>

individual cyclists, on the road, about behaving?<BR>

<BR>

And<BR>

<BR>

2) What would be the most effective way for an organization (like the BTA,<BR>

OBRA, the Wheelman, etc.) to do broad outreach to the cycling community on<BR>

this issue?<BR>

<BR>

I apologize if this e-mail has come across as preachy.  That's not my<BR>

intent.  I just think we need to figure out a way to peacefully co-exist<BR>

with motorists and this seems like a good way to start.  Please don't<BR>

flame<BR>

 me if you disagree.  Constructive criticism and discussion welcome.<BR>

<BR>

Susan<BR>

<BR>

--------------------------------------------<BR>

Susan Otcenas<BR>

TEAM ESTROGEN, INC. __~o<BR>

2038 NW Aloclek Dr., Suite 220     -\_<,<BR>

Hillsboro, OR 97124    (*)/'(*)<BR>

<BR>

<A HREF="http://www.TeamEstrogen.com">http://www.TeamEstrogen.com</A><BR>

1-877-310-4592<BR>

--------------------------------------------<BR>

  Cycling Apparel and Accessories for Women<BR>

--------------------------------------------<BR>

<BR>

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.<BR>

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org<BR>

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com<BR>

<BR>

<BR>

<BR>

<BR>

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.<BR>

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org<BR>

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com<BR>

<BR>

<BR>

<BR>

</FONT>

</P>



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------_=_NextPart_001_01C5035B.2C741F00--



Ron & Dorothy

2005-01-25



I agree that the bottom line is for us cyclists to not break the rules of

the road (especially in busy urban areas and country roads that have poor

sightlines). The auto drivers that see rules being disobeyed or have to

deal with it will not remember the other riders that are riding properly. I

urge cyclists to keep the respect of most motor vehicle drivers by being

courteous and riding in a predictable manner. I know that we cannot stop a

driver from breaking the rules of the road...but two wrongs do not make a

right. Even when you are in a hurry on your rides, you make many decisions

based on your own safety. I would urge all to consider obeying the rules of

the road as a personal safety decision... in the short and long term.

ron strasser

----- Original Message -----

From: "Susan Otcenas" <sus-@teamestrogen.com>

To: <CycleO-@yahoogroups.com>; "'obra'" <ob-@topica.com>;

<shi-@lists.riseup.net>

Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 5:05 PM

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth your time)





 Apologies in advance for cross-posting to more than one e-list.



Yesterday, the Oregonian published a Letter to the Editor that I wrote

after

 reading about the latest hit-and-run here on the west side. Should you

care

 to read it, here's a link to my letter

http://www.oregonlive.com/letters/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/editorial/110639

 8840172300.xml

as well as the original article

http://www.oregonlive.com/metrowest/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/metro_west_new

 s/110544844993880.xml



Predictably, yesterday evening I received an anonymous phone call from

"Jack" who wanted to talk about my letter. Luckily, he wasn't a nutcase,

and we had an hour-long conversation about the differences between the way

cyclists and motorists see the world. It was a productive conversation,

with both of us conceding a few points.



Jack's biggest beef with cyclists was the way in which cyclists often seem

to flaunt the rules of the road. Running red lights and stop signs,

riding

 3 abreast or in packs that do not move over when vehicles approach from

behind, failing to signal, etc. We demand "respect" and assert our

"rights", yet fail to observe the rules ourselves. Frankly, I agree with

him. Sure, motorists break the rules all the time, but it doesn't matter.

WE CAN NOT OCCUPY THE MORAL HIGH GROUND WHILE NOT OBEYING THE RULES

OURSELVES.



I want to start a discussion on a "code of conduct" of sorts.



### Note:

- If you wish to debate the evilness of autos, please start another

thread.

 - If you wish to debate the war in Iraq, please start another thread.

- If you wish to debate the FAIRNESS of said rules, DON'T start a thread.

Pony up the bucks to join the BTA, or better yet volunteer your time with

them to advocate for change.

###



The fact is, the rules are the rules, such as they are. If we ever wish

to

 gain the respect of the motorists, we have to do a better job of obeying

the

 rules of the road. And we have to figure out a way to politely tell our

fellow cyclists that certain behavior is not acceptable. There's a lot to

be said for peer pressure.



In response to a recent post about police ticketing cyclists who were not

stopping at a particular intersection yesterday, I would very much like to

commend the OBRA members who pointed that no e-mail "warning" should be

necessary. My favorite was:



"Remember the "three R's" of cycling:



         Same road

         Same rules

         Same rights"



For myself, I'm making a pledge to do better. I know I can't/won't be

perfect. But I'm going to re-double my efforts to stop at every stop sign

instead of sometimes rolling through when it's "clear". I'm going to ask

friends on group rides to be more conscious of approaching vehicles so

that

 we can be courteous to our fellow citizens by allowing them to safely

pass.

 I'm going to re-read "Pedal Power, A Legal Guide for Oregon Bicyclists" so

I

 can be sure of my rights and responsibilities (free download available at

http://www.stc-law.com/bikepower.html ).   I'm hoping that some of you

will

 also take some time to look at how you use your bicycle, and see if there

isn't some small way in which you can improve as well. Every action we as

individuals take is seen as representative of our entire class--especially

if it's a negative action, which reinforces what motorists already think

and

 expect.



So, I pose two questions:



1) What's the best way for individual cyclists to communicate with other

individual cyclists, on the road, about behaving?



And



2) What would be the most effective way for an organization (like the BTA,

OBRA, the Wheelman, etc.) to do broad outreach to the cycling community on

this issue?



I apologize if this e-mail has come across as preachy. That's not my

intent. I just think we need to figure out a way to peacefully co-exist

with motorists and this seems like a good way to start. Please don't

flame

 me if you disagree. Constructive criticism and discussion welcome.



Susan



--------------------------------------------

Susan Otcenas

TEAM ESTROGEN, INC. __~o

2038 NW Aloclek Dr., Suite 220     -\_<,

Hillsboro, OR 97124    (*)/'(*)



http://www.TeamEstrogen.com

1-877-310-4592

--------------------------------------------

Cycling Apparel and Accessories for Women

--------------------------------------------



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



Brian Ecker

2005-01-25



I'm not one to get in the middle of this, but

if the attached links broke in transmission like mine,

here's a direct link for you:



***For this one, go here: http://tinyurl.com/5qc6k and

scroll to bottom.



Yesterday, the Oregonian published a Letter to the Editor that I wrote after

reading about the latest hit-and-run here on the west side. Should you care

to read it, here's a link to my letter

http://www.oregonlive.com/letters/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/editorial/110639

8840172300.xml





*** For this one, go here: http://tinyurl.com/56alv



as well as the original article

http://www.oregonlive.com/metrowest/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/metro_west_new

s/110544844993880.xml



~b



Dan H

2005-01-25



Unfortunatly, most of the "cyclists" that need to see this are not on the

list.



----- Original Message -----

From: "Susan Otcenas" <sus-@teamestrogen.com>

To: <CycleO-@yahoogroups.com>; "'obra'" <ob-@topica.com>;

<shi-@lists.riseup.net>

Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 5:05 PM

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth your time)





 Apologies in advance for cross-posting to more than one e-list.



Yesterday, the Oregonian published a Letter to the Editor that I wrote

after

 reading about the latest hit-and-run here on the west side. Should you

care

 to read it, here's a link to my letter

http://www.oregonlive.com/letters/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/editorial/110639

 8840172300.xml

as well as the original article

http://www.oregonlive.com/metrowest/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/metro_west_new

 s/110544844993880.xml



Predictably, yesterday evening I received an anonymous phone call from

"Jack" who wanted to talk about my letter. Luckily, he wasn't a nutcase,

and we had an hour-long conversation about the differences between the way

cyclists and motorists see the world. It was a productive conversation,

with both of us conceding a few points.



Jack's biggest beef with cyclists was the way in which cyclists often seem

to flaunt the rules of the road. Running red lights and stop signs,

riding

 3 abreast or in packs that do not move over when vehicles approach from

behind, failing to signal, etc. We demand "respect" and assert our

"rights", yet fail to observe the rules ourselves. Frankly, I agree with

him. Sure, motorists break the rules all the time, but it doesn't matter.

WE CAN NOT OCCUPY THE MORAL HIGH GROUND WHILE NOT OBEYING THE RULES

OURSELVES.



I want to start a discussion on a "code of conduct" of sorts.



### Note:

- If you wish to debate the evilness of autos, please start another

thread.

 - If you wish to debate the war in Iraq, please start another thread.

- If you wish to debate the FAIRNESS of said rules, DON'T start a thread.

Pony up the bucks to join the BTA, or better yet volunteer your time with

them to advocate for change.

###



The fact is, the rules are the rules, such as they are. If we ever wish

to

 gain the respect of the motorists, we have to do a better job of obeying

the

 rules of the road. And we have to figure out a way to politely tell our

fellow cyclists that certain behavior is not acceptable. There's a lot to

be said for peer pressure.



In response to a recent post about police ticketing cyclists who were not

stopping at a particular intersection yesterday, I would very much like to

commend the OBRA members who pointed that no e-mail "warning" should be

necessary. My favorite was:



"Remember the "three R's" of cycling:



         Same road

         Same rules

         Same rights"



For myself, I'm making a pledge to do better. I know I can't/won't be

perfect. But I'm going to re-double my efforts to stop at every stop sign

instead of sometimes rolling through when it's "clear". I'm going to ask

friends on group rides to be more conscious of approaching vehicles so

that

 we can be courteous to our fellow citizens by allowing them to safely

pass.

 I'm going to re-read "Pedal Power, A Legal Guide for Oregon Bicyclists" so

I

 can be sure of my rights and responsibilities (free download available at

http://www.stc-law.com/bikepower.html ).   I'm hoping that some of you

will

 also take some time to look at how you use your bicycle, and see if there

isn't some small way in which you can improve as well. Every action we as

individuals take is seen as representative of our entire class--especially

if it's a negative action, which reinforces what motorists already think

and

 expect.



So, I pose two questions:



1) What's the best way for individual cyclists to communicate with other

individual cyclists, on the road, about behaving?



And



2) What would be the most effective way for an organization (like the BTA,

OBRA, the Wheelman, etc.) to do broad outreach to the cycling community on

this issue?



I apologize if this e-mail has come across as preachy. That's not my

intent. I just think we need to figure out a way to peacefully co-exist

with motorists and this seems like a good way to start. Please don't

flame

 me if you disagree. Constructive criticism and discussion welcome.



Susan



--------------------------------------------

Susan Otcenas

TEAM ESTROGEN, INC. __~o

2038 NW Aloclek Dr., Suite 220     -\_<,

Hillsboro, OR 97124    (*)/'(*)



http://www.TeamEstrogen.com

1-877-310-4592

--------------------------------------------

Cycling Apparel and Accessories for Women

--------------------------------------------



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



Susan Otcenas

2005-01-25



George,



Agreed. Again, for me the debate is not about whether we should or should

not follow the rules. We should. It's about how we get cyclists to

actually DO that.



Susan





-----Original Message-----

From: Schreck, George [mailto:george.-@pacificorp.com]

Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 5:12 PM

To: sus-@teamestrogen.com; CycleO-@yahoogroups.com; obra;

shi-@lists.riseup.net

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth your

time)





I do not think there is much to debate. Our right to use the roads is based

on our being viewed as vehicles. As such, we are required to obey the

traffic laws. If we want equal rights, we must accept the obligations.



Our views about cars or any perceived moral superiority regarding bicycles

does not excuse is from obeying the laws which exist to protect all vehicles

and pedestrians.



Frankly, I cannot see that there is a legitimate reason to run stop signs or

lights. I often sit in my car and see no traffic, yet I wait at the light

or stop at the stop sign. There is no reason why I should behave

differently on my bicycle.



Susan Otcenas

2005-01-25



Apologies in advance for cross-posting to more than one e-list.



Yesterday, the Oregonian published a Letter to the Editor that I wrote after

reading about the latest hit-and-run here on the west side. Should you care

to read it, here's a link to my letter

http://www.oregonlive.com/letters/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/editorial/110639

8840172300.xml

as well as the original article

http://www.oregonlive.com/metrowest/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/metro_west_new

s/110544844993880.xml



Predictably, yesterday evening I received an anonymous phone call from

"Jack" who wanted to talk about my letter. Luckily, he wasn't a nutcase,

and we had an hour-long conversation about the differences between the way

cyclists and motorists see the world. It was a productive conversation,

with both of us conceding a few points.



Jack's biggest beef with cyclists was the way in which cyclists often seem

to flaunt the rules of the road. Running red lights and stop signs, riding

3 abreast or in packs that do not move over when vehicles approach from

behind, failing to signal, etc. We demand "respect" and assert our

"rights", yet fail to observe the rules ourselves. Frankly, I agree with

him. Sure, motorists break the rules all the time, but it doesn't matter.

WE CAN NOT OCCUPY THE MORAL HIGH GROUND WHILE NOT OBEYING THE RULES

OURSELVES.



I want to start a discussion on a "code of conduct" of sorts.



### Note:

- If you wish to debate the evilness of autos, please start another thread.

- If you wish to debate the war in Iraq, please start another thread.

- If you wish to debate the FAIRNESS of said rules, DON'T start a thread.

Pony up the bucks to join the BTA, or better yet volunteer your time with

them to advocate for change.

###



The fact is, the rules are the rules, such as they are. If we ever wish to

gain the respect of the motorists, we have to do a better job of obeying the

rules of the road. And we have to figure out a way to politely tell our

fellow cyclists that certain behavior is not acceptable. There's a lot to

be said for peer pressure.



In response to a recent post about police ticketing cyclists who were not

stopping at a particular intersection yesterday, I would very much like to

commend the OBRA members who pointed that no e-mail "warning" should be

necessary. My favorite was:



"Remember the "three R's" of cycling:



        Same road

        Same rules

        Same rights"



For myself, I'm making a pledge to do better. I know I can't/won't be

perfect. But I'm going to re-double my efforts to stop at every stop sign

instead of sometimes rolling through when it's "clear". I'm going to ask

friends on group rides to be more conscious of approaching vehicles so that

we can be courteous to our fellow citizens by allowing them to safely pass.

I'm going to re-read "Pedal Power, A Legal Guide for Oregon Bicyclists" so I

can be sure of my rights and responsibilities (free download available at

http://www.stc-law.com/bikepower.html ).   I'm hoping that some of you will

also take some time to look at how you use your bicycle, and see if there

isn't some small way in which you can improve as well. Every action we as

individuals take is seen as representative of our entire class--especially

if it's a negative action, which reinforces what motorists already think and

expect.



So, I pose two questions:



1) What's the best way for individual cyclists to communicate with other

individual cyclists, on the road, about behaving?



And



2) What would be the most effective way for an organization (like the BTA,

OBRA, the Wheelman, etc.) to do broad outreach to the cycling community on

this issue?



I apologize if this e-mail has come across as preachy. That's not my

intent. I just think we need to figure out a way to peacefully co-exist

with motorists and this seems like a good way to start. Please don't flame

me if you disagree. Constructive criticism and discussion welcome.



Susan



--------------------------------------------

Susan Otcenas                  

TEAM ESTROGEN, INC. __~o

2038 NW Aloclek Dr., Suite 220     -\_<,

Hillsboro, OR 97124    (*)/'(*)



http://www.TeamEstrogen.com

1-877-310-4592                

--------------------------------------------

Cycling Apparel and Accessories for Women

--------------------------------------------