OBRA: OBRA Chat: RE: Code of Conduct (long, ...

Schreck, George

2005-01-26

Yes, following the law does not mean obey it when the result is stupid

like sitting there for ten minutes waiting for a car to trip the light.

At some point, you have to be reasonable. Also, my view is that in

those situations, the road has been designed in a manner that does not

accord me equal treatment as a bicyclist, so I address the situation by

modifying the rule to address the discrepancy and treat it more in the

nature of a stop sign.

-----Original Message-----

From: Dan H [mailto:da-@bicyclerepairman.us]

Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 12:28 AM

To: Jerry.-@comcast.net; ron-@spiritone.com;

sus-@teamestrogen.com; CycleO-@yahoogroups.com; 'obra';

shi-@lists.riseup.net

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth your

time)

A substantial number of red lights I encounter are NOT designed to

sense

bikes.

That can be a problem. Usually a motorist will pull up behind me but

stop

too far back to trigger the signal thinking they are being courtious. I

look back and becon them forward pointing at the road immediatly behind

me

but most of the time I just get quizical looks like that RCA dog and

they

just sit there so I increase the amplitude of my signal with a big wave

of

my arm, like, "come here! See the big loop in the road? it's a metal

detector! Look!" About one in five will figure it out and pull forward

enough to trip the signal. I think a lot people still think the signal

uses

a pressure pad. They don't. That went out with the 70's.

If the motorist does not trip the signal in 2 cycles I'm forced to make

an

illegal manuever to get things going. Sometimes you just have to.

----- Original Message -----

From: "ron strasser" <ron-@spiritone.com>

To: <sus-@teamestrogen.com>; <CycleO-@yahoogroups.com>; "'obra'"

<ob-@topica.com>; <shi-@lists.riseup.net>

Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 7:54 PM

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth

your

time)

I agree that the bottom line is for us cyclists to not break the

rules of

the road (especially in busy urban areas and country roads that have

poor

sightlines). The auto drivers that see rules being disobeyed or

have to

deal with it will not remember the other riders that are riding

properly.

I

urge cyclists to keep the respect of most motor vehicle drivers by

being

courteous and riding in a predictable manner. I know that we cannot

stop

a

driver from breaking the rules of the road...but two wrongs do not

make

a

right. Even when you are in a hurry on your rides, you make many

decisions

based on your own safety. I would urge all to consider obeying the

rules

of

the road as a personal safety decision... in the short and long

term.

ron strasser

----- Original Message -----

From: "Susan Otcenas" <sus-@teamestrogen.com>

To: <CycleO-@yahoogroups.com>; "'obra'" <ob-@topica.com>;

<shi-@lists.riseup.net>

Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 5:05 PM

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth your

time)

Apologies in advance for cross-posting to more than one e-list.

Yesterday, the Oregonian published a Letter to the Editor that I

wrote

after

reading about the latest hit-and-run here on the west side. Should

you

care

to read it, here's a link to my letter

http://www.oregonlive.com/letters/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/editorial/11

0639

8840172300.xml

as well as the original article

http://www.oregonlive.com/metrowest/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/metro_west

_new

s/110544844993880.xml

Predictably, yesterday evening I received an anonymous phone call

from

"Jack" who wanted to talk about my letter. Luckily, he wasn't a

nutcase,

and we had an hour-long conversation about the differences between

the

way

cyclists and motorists see the world. It was a productive

conversation,

with both of us conceding a few points.

Jack's biggest beef with cyclists was the way in which cyclists

often

seem

to flaunt the rules of the road. Running red lights and stop

signs,

riding

3 abreast or in packs that do not move over when vehicles approach

from

behind, failing to signal, etc. We demand "respect" and assert our

"rights", yet fail to observe the rules ourselves. Frankly, I

agree

with

him. Sure, motorists break the rules all the time, but it doesn't

matter.

WE CAN NOT OCCUPY THE MORAL HIGH GROUND WHILE NOT OBEYING THE RULES

OURSELVES.

I want to start a discussion on a "code of conduct" of sorts.

### Note:

- If you wish to debate the evilness of autos, please start another

thread.

- If you wish to debate the war in Iraq, please start another

thread.

- If you wish to debate the FAIRNESS of said rules, DON'T start a

thread.

Pony up the bucks to join the BTA, or better yet volunteer your

time

with

them to advocate for change.

###

The fact is, the rules are the rules, such as they are. If we ever

wish

to

gain the respect of the motorists, we have to do a better job of

obeying

the

rules of the road. And we have to figure out a way to politely

tell

our

fellow cyclists that certain behavior is not acceptable. There's a

lot

to

be said for peer pressure.

In response to a recent post about police ticketing cyclists who

were

not

stopping at a particular intersection yesterday, I would very much

like

to

commend the OBRA members who pointed that no e-mail "warning"

should be

   necessary. My favorite was:

"Remember the "three R's" of cycling:

         Same road

         Same rules

         Same rights"

For myself, I'm making a pledge to do better. I know I can't/won't

be

perfect. But I'm going to re-double my efforts to stop at every

stop

sign

instead of sometimes rolling through when it's "clear". I'm going

to

ask

friends on group rides to be more conscious of approaching vehicles

so

that

we can be courteous to our fellow citizens by allowing them to

safely

pass.

I'm going to re-read "Pedal Power, A Legal Guide for Oregon

Bicyclists"

so

I

can be sure of my rights and responsibilities (free download

available

at

http://www.stc-law.com/bikepower.html ). I'm hoping that some of

you

will

also take some time to look at how you use your bicycle, and see if

there

isn't some small way in which you can improve as well. Every

action we

as

individuals take is seen as representative of our entire

class--especially

if it's a negative action, which reinforces what motorists already

think

and

expect.

So, I pose two questions:

1) What's the best way for individual cyclists to communicate with

other

individual cyclists, on the road, about behaving?

And

2) What would be the most effective way for an organization (like

the

BTA,

OBRA, the Wheelman, etc.) to do broad outreach to the cycling

community

on

this issue?

I apologize if this e-mail has come across as preachy. That's not

my

intent. I just think we need to figure out a way to peacefully

co-exist

with motorists and this seems like a good way to start. Please

don't

  flame

me if you disagree. Constructive criticism and discussion welcome.

Susan

--------------------------------------------

Susan Otcenas

TEAM ESTROGEN, INC. __~o

2038 NW Aloclek Dr., Suite 220     -\_<,

Hillsboro, OR 97124    (*)/'(*)

http://www.TeamEstrogen.com

1-877-310-4592

--------------------------------------------

Cycling Apparel and Accessories for Women

--------------------------------------------

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This email is confidential and may be legally privileged.

It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this email by anyone else, unless expressly approved by the sender or an authorized addressee, is unauthorized.

If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action omitted or taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you believe that you have received this email in error, please contact the sender, delete this e-mail and destroy all copies.

==============================================================================

Schreck, George

2005-01-26

Actually, the law does not require bicyclists to put their foot down at

stops. It only requires a stop.

-----Original Message-----

From: ricky roma [mailto:r1cky-@hotmail.com]

Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 8:13 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth your

time)

Let me just start by saying that some of us don't want to (or pretend

to) "OCCUPY THE MORAL HIGH GROUND".

While I will punch the occasional car for trying to run me over, I do

try to obey the rules of the road most of the time.

There are only a few times I usually don't:

1 - If I'm riding downtown I will split the lane or ride to the right to

pass lines of cars. One of the perks of riding a bike is not having to

sit in traffic (yes I know we _are_ traffic), so I'm not going to 'sit

behind' a 'huge line of cars' and 'suck exhaust fumes' just to 'obey'

the 'rules of the road' (liberal use of quotes a la Bennett Brauer).

2 - If I'm sitting at a stop sign or stop light and there is no one

around, I will ride through it - only if it's clear - I will never go

through a stop sign or light if there are any cars at the intersection.

Might I also say that I've had many car drivers wave me through stop

signs. Very nice.

I find it fascinating that some motorists would be 'outraged' about

cyclists running red lights, but are not equally as 'outraged' about

cars not obeying traffic laws. I see city buses run red lights on a

daily basis (literally). That's much more dangerous than me on my bike

rolling through a red light if it's clear.

I can also guarantee that most motorists would be far more annoyed if I

were making a complete stop (putting foot down) at every stop sign while

they had to wait behind me.

I also don't understand this:

"Sure, motorists break the rules all the time, but it doesn't matter."

I would have to disagree. I think it *does* matter as there is a huge

double standard in place. Some of the same motorists that complain about

cyclists blowing stop signs are routinely speeding through residential

neighborhoods. Again, far more dangerous than pretty much anything I

could ever do on a bike.

rr

http://livewrong.net

Susan Otcenas wrote:

Apologies in advance for cross-posting to more than one e-list.

Yesterday, the Oregonian published a Letter to the Editor that I wrote

after

reading about the latest hit-and-run here on the west side. Should

you

care

to read it, here's a link to my letter

http://www.oregonlive.com/letters/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/editorial/11

0639

8840172300.xml

as well as the original article

http://www.oregonlive.com/metrowest/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/metro_west

_new

s/110544844993880.xml

Predictably, yesterday evening I received an anonymous phone call from

"Jack" who wanted to talk about my letter. Luckily, he wasn't a

nutcase,

and we had an hour-long conversation about the differences between the

way

cyclists and motorists see the world. It was a productive

conversation,

with both of us conceding a few points.

Jack's biggest beef with cyclists was the way in which cyclists often

seem

to flaunt the rules of the road. Running red lights and stop signs,

riding

3 abreast or in packs that do not move over when vehicles approach

from

behind, failing to signal, etc. We demand "respect" and assert our

"rights", yet fail to observe the rules ourselves. Frankly, I agree

with

him. Sure, motorists break the rules all the time, but it doesn't

matter.

WE CAN NOT OCCUPY THE MORAL HIGH GROUND WHILE NOT OBEYING THE RULES

OURSELVES.

I want to start a discussion on a "code of conduct" of sorts.

### Note:

- If you wish to debate the evilness of autos, please start another

thread.

- If you wish to debate the war in Iraq, please start another thread.

- If you wish to debate the FAIRNESS of said rules, DON'T start a

thread.

Pony up the bucks to join the BTA, or better yet volunteer your time

with

them to advocate for change.

###

The fact is, the rules are the rules, such as they are. If we ever

wish

to

gain the respect of the motorists, we have to do a better job of

obeying

the

rules of the road. And we have to figure out a way to politely tell

our

fellow cyclists that certain behavior is not acceptable. There's a

lot

to

be said for peer pressure.

In response to a recent post about police ticketing cyclists who were

not

stopping at a particular intersection yesterday, I would very much

like

to

commend the OBRA members who pointed that no e-mail "warning" should

be

necessary. My favorite was:

"Remember the "three R's" of cycling:

         Same road

         Same rules

         Same rights"

For myself, I'm making a pledge to do better. I know I can't/won't be

perfect. But I'm going to re-double my efforts to stop at every stop

sign

instead of sometimes rolling through when it's "clear". I'm going to

ask

friends on group rides to be more conscious of approaching vehicles so

that

we can be courteous to our fellow citizens by allowing them to safely

pass.

I'm going to re-read "Pedal Power, A Legal Guide for Oregon

Bicyclists"

so I

can be sure of my rights and responsibilities (free download available

at

http://www.stc-law.com/bikepower.html ). I'm hoping that some of you

will

also take some time to look at how you use your bicycle, and see if

there

isn't some small way in which you can improve as well. Every action

we

as

individuals take is seen as representative of our entire

class--especially

if it's a negative action, which reinforces what motorists already

think

and

expect.

So, I pose two questions:

1) What's the best way for individual cyclists to communicate with

other

individual cyclists, on the road, about behaving?

And

2) What would be the most effective way for an organization (like the

BTA,

OBRA, the Wheelman, etc.) to do broad outreach to the cycling

community

on

this issue?

I apologize if this e-mail has come across as preachy. That's not my

intent. I just think we need to figure out a way to peacefully

co-exist

with motorists and this seems like a good way to start. Please don't

flame

me if you disagree. Constructive criticism and discussion welcome.

Susan

--------------------------------------------

Susan Otcenas

TEAM ESTROGEN, INC. __~o

2038 NW Aloclek Dr., Suite 220     -\_<,

Hillsboro, OR 97124    (*)/'(*)

http://www.TeamEstrogen.com

1-877-310-4592

--------------------------------------------

Cycling Apparel and Accessories for Women

--------------------------------------------

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This email is confidential and may be legally privileged.

It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this email by anyone else, unless expressly approved by the sender or an authorized addressee, is unauthorized.

If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action omitted or taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you believe that you have received this email in error, please contact the sender, delete this e-mail and destroy all copies.

==============================================================================

Schreck, George

2005-01-25

I do not think there is much to debate. Our right to use the roads is

based on our being viewed as vehicles. As such, we are required to obey

the traffic laws. If we want equal rights, we must accept the

obligations.

Our views about cars or any perceived moral superiority regarding

bicycles does not excuse is from obeying the laws which exist to protect

all vehicles and pedestrians.

Frankly, I cannot see that there is a legitimate reason to run stop

signs or lights. I often sit in my car and see no traffic, yet I wait

at the light or stop at the stop sign. There is no reason why I should

behave differently on my bicycle.

-----Original Message-----

From: Susan Otcenas [mailto:sus-@teamestrogen.com]

Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 5:05 PM

To: CycleO-@yahoogroups.com; 'obra'; shi-@lists.riseup.net

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth your

time)

Apologies in advance for cross-posting to more than one e-list.

Yesterday, the Oregonian published a Letter to the Editor that I wrote

after

reading about the latest hit-and-run here on the west side. Should you

care

to read it, here's a link to my letter

http://www.oregonlive.com/letters/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/editorial/11

0639

8840172300.xml

as well as the original article

http://www.oregonlive.com/metrowest/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/metro_west

_new

s/110544844993880.xml

Predictably, yesterday evening I received an anonymous phone call from

"Jack" who wanted to talk about my letter. Luckily, he wasn't a

nutcase,

and we had an hour-long conversation about the differences between the

way

cyclists and motorists see the world. It was a productive conversation,

with both of us conceding a few points.

Jack's biggest beef with cyclists was the way in which cyclists often

seem

to flaunt the rules of the road. Running red lights and stop signs,

riding

3 abreast or in packs that do not move over when vehicles approach from

behind, failing to signal, etc. We demand "respect" and assert our

"rights", yet fail to observe the rules ourselves. Frankly, I agree

with

him. Sure, motorists break the rules all the time, but it doesn't

matter.

WE CAN NOT OCCUPY THE MORAL HIGH GROUND WHILE NOT OBEYING THE RULES

OURSELVES.

I want to start a discussion on a "code of conduct" of sorts.

### Note:

- If you wish to debate the evilness of autos, please start another

thread.

- If you wish to debate the war in Iraq, please start another thread.

- If you wish to debate the FAIRNESS of said rules, DON'T start a

thread.

Pony up the bucks to join the BTA, or better yet volunteer your time

with

them to advocate for change.

###

The fact is, the rules are the rules, such as they are. If we ever wish

to

gain the respect of the motorists, we have to do a better job of obeying

the

rules of the road. And we have to figure out a way to politely tell our

fellow cyclists that certain behavior is not acceptable. There's a lot

to

be said for peer pressure.

In response to a recent post about police ticketing cyclists who were

not

stopping at a particular intersection yesterday, I would very much like

to

commend the OBRA members who pointed that no e-mail "warning" should be

necessary. My favorite was:

"Remember the "three R's" of cycling:

        Same road

        Same rules

        Same rights"

For myself, I'm making a pledge to do better. I know I can't/won't be

perfect. But I'm going to re-double my efforts to stop at every stop

sign

instead of sometimes rolling through when it's "clear". I'm going to

ask

friends on group rides to be more conscious of approaching vehicles so

that

we can be courteous to our fellow citizens by allowing them to safely

pass.

I'm going to re-read "Pedal Power, A Legal Guide for Oregon Bicyclists"

so I

can be sure of my rights and responsibilities (free download available

at

http://www.stc-law.com/bikepower.html ).   I'm hoping that some of you

will

also take some time to look at how you use your bicycle, and see if

there

isn't some small way in which you can improve as well. Every action we

as

individuals take is seen as representative of our entire

class--especially

if it's a negative action, which reinforces what motorists already think

and

expect.

So, I pose two questions:

1) What's the best way for individual cyclists to communicate with other

individual cyclists, on the road, about behaving?

And

2) What would be the most effective way for an organization (like the

BTA,

OBRA, the Wheelman, etc.) to do broad outreach to the cycling community

on

this issue?

I apologize if this e-mail has come across as preachy. That's not my

intent. I just think we need to figure out a way to peacefully co-exist

with motorists and this seems like a good way to start. Please don't

flame

me if you disagree. Constructive criticism and discussion welcome.

Susan

--------------------------------------------

Susan Otcenas

TEAM ESTROGEN, INC. __~o

2038 NW Aloclek Dr., Suite 220     -\_<,

Hillsboro, OR 97124    (*)/'(*)

http://www.TeamEstrogen.com

1-877-310-4592

--------------------------------------------

Cycling Apparel and Accessories for Women

--------------------------------------------

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This email is confidential and may be legally privileged.

It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this email by anyone else, unless expressly approved by the sender or an authorized addressee, is unauthorized.

If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action omitted or taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you believe that you have received this email in error, please contact the sender, delete this e-mail and destroy all copies.

==============================================================================

RE: Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth your

Schreck, George

Schreck, George

Schreck, George