Ron & Dorothy
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I don't have a problem with heavier fines (good idea). I am not a mother (another responder). I know that you have to be realistic with regard to the rules when sitting at lights that are not changing. I know that many of the riders that break the rules are not educated about the basic rules, but I do not believe that I am being naive when I say that obeying the rules as I mentioned (and this seems to have taken on the need for massive detail) in urban areas (especially when there are auto drivers around watching the cyclist blow a light.... does alot of harm with regard to all cyclists. I wish more folks rode bikes (got out of their rolling caskets) and then they would understand what we deal with when riding. I know that there are always going to be drivers that will kill cyclists with their autos.... but the more we can do to gain respect one person at a time will help. Many good points have been made here. I hope we all gain. Thanks for pointing out how I was unclear in my other response.
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Murphy
To: ob-@topica.com ; shi-@lists.riseup.net
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 10:27 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth your time)
How is a cyclist supposed to earn the respect of car drivers when car drivers don't even respect each other?
Even if all the cyclists followed every rule of the road, cars and truck drivers would not respect them because bicycles are an impediment to their destination, for which they are already late.
I am not advocating disregarding the rules, quite the contrary. I believe in obeying traffic laws. But to think that you will gain respect from a part of the population, who believes you have no right to the asphalt, by just obeying traffic laws is naiive and about as productive as arguing with Lars Larson on the phone.
Advocate for heavier traffic fines and prosecution of the people who break the law. This includes cyclists. If a cyclist blows a red light and gets caught, fine 'em, but also fine the car that did not come to a complete stop beore making a right turn on a red light.
Pete Murphy
>From: ron strasser <ron-@spiritone.com>
>Reply-To: ron-@spiritone.com
>To: sus-@teamestrogen.com, CycleO-@yahoogroups.com, 'obra' <ob-@topica.com>, shi-@lists.riseup.net
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth your time)
>Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 19:54:13 -0800
>
>I agree that the bottom line is for us cyclists to not break the rules of
>the road (especially in busy urban areas and country roads that have poor
>sightlines). The auto drivers that see rules being disobeyed or have to
>deal with it will not remember the other riders that are riding properly. I
>urge cyclists to keep the respect of most motor vehicle drivers by being
>courteous and riding in a predictable manner. I know that we cannot stop a
>driver from breaking the rules of the road...but two wrongs do not make a
>right. Even when you are in a hurry on your rides, you make many decisions
>based on your own safety. I would urge all to consider obeying the rules of
>the road as a personal safety decision... in the short and long term.
>ron strasser
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Susan Otcenas" <sus-@teamestrogen.com>
>To: <CycleO-@yahoogroups.com>; "'obra'" <ob-@topica.com>;
><shi-@lists.riseup.net>
>Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 5:05 PM
>Subject: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth your time)
>
>
> > Apologies in advance for cross-posting to more than one e-list.
> >
> > Yesterday, the Oregonian published a Letter to the Editor that I wrote
>after
> > reading about the latest hit-and-run here on the west side. Should you
>care
> > to read it, here's a link to my letter
> >
>http://www.oregonlive.com/letters/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/editorial/110639
> > 8840172300.xml
> > as well as the original article
> >
>http://www.oregonlive.com/metrowest/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/metro_west_new
> > s/110544844993880.xml
> >
> > Predictably, yesterday evening I received an anonymous phone call from
> > "Jack" who wanted to talk about my letter. Luckily, he wasn't a nutcase,
> > and we had an hour-long conversation about the differences between the way
> > cyclists and motorists see the world. It was a productive conversation,
> > with both of us conceding a few points.
> >
> > Jack's biggest beef with cyclists was the way in which cyclists often seem
> > to flaunt the rules of the road. Running red lights and stop signs,
>riding
> > 3 abreast or in packs that do not move over when vehicles approach from
> > behind, failing to signal, etc. We demand "respect" and assert our
> > "rights", yet fail to observe the rules ourselves. Frankly, I agree with
> > him. Sure, motorists break the rules all the time, but it doesn't matter.
> > WE CAN NOT OCCUPY THE MORAL HIGH GROUND WHILE NOT OBEYING THE RULES
> > OURSELVES.
> >
> > I want to start a discussion on a "code of conduct" of sorts.
> >
> > ### Note:
> > - If you wish to debate the evilness of autos, please start another
>thread.
> > - If you wish to debate the war in Iraq, please start another thread.
> > - If you wish to debate the FAIRNESS of said rules, DON'T start a thread.
> > Pony up the bucks to join the BTA, or better yet volunteer your time with
> > them to advocate for change.
> > ###
> >
> > The fact is, the rules are the rules, such as they are. If we ever wish
>to
> > gain the respect of the motorists, we have to do a better job of obeying
>the
> > rules of the road. And we have to figure out a way to politely tell our
> > fellow cyclists that certain behavior is not acceptable. There's a lot to
> > be said for peer pressure.
> >
> > In response to a recent post about police ticketing cyclists who were not
> > stopping at a particular intersection yesterday, I would very much like to
> > commend the OBRA members who pointed that no e-mail "warning" should be
> > necessary. My favorite was:
> >
> > "Remember the "three R's" of cycling:
> >
> > Same road
> > Same rules
> > Same rights"
> >
> > For myself, I'm making a pledge to do better. I know I can't/won't be
> > perfect. But I'm going to re-double my efforts to stop at every stop sign
> > instead of sometimes rolling through when it's "clear". I'm going to ask
> > friends on group rides to be more conscious of approaching vehicles so
>that
> > we can be courteous to our fellow citizens by allowing them to safely
>pass.
> > I'm going to re-read "Pedal Power, A Legal Guide for Oregon Bicyclists" so
>I
> > can be sure of my rights and responsibilities (free download available at
> > http://www.stc-law.com/bikepower.html ). I'm hoping that some of you
>will
> > also take some time to look at how you use your bicycle, and see if there
> > isn't some small way in which you can improve as well. Every action we as
> > individuals take is seen as representative of our entire class--especially
> > if it's a negative action, which reinforces what motorists already think
>and
> > expect.
> >
> > So, I pose two questions:
> >
> > 1) What's the best way for individual cyclists to communicate with other
> > individual cyclists, on the road, about behaving?
> >
> > And
> >
> > 2) What would be the most effective way for an organization (like the BTA,
> > OBRA, the Wheelman, etc.) to do broad outreach to the cycling community on
> > this issue?
> >
> > I apologize if this e-mail has come across as preachy. That's not my
> > intent. I just think we need to figure out a way to peacefully co-exist
> > with motorists and this seems like a good way to start. Please don't
>flame
> > me if you disagree. Constructive criticism and discussion welcome.
> >
> > Susan
> >
> > --------------------------------------------
> > Susan Otcenas
> > TEAM ESTROGEN, INC. __~o
> > 2038 NW Aloclek Dr., Suite 220 -\_<,
> > Hillsboro, OR 97124 (*)/'(*)
> >
> > http://www.TeamEstrogen.com
> > 1-877-310-4592
> > --------------------------------------------
> > Cycling Apparel and Accessories for Women
> > --------------------------------------------
> >
> > To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.
> > To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org
> > To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com
> >
> >
> >
>
>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.
>To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org
>To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com
>
>
>
To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.
To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I don't have a problem with heavier fines (good
idea). I am not a mother (another responder). I know that you have
to be realistic with regard to the rules when sitting at lights that are not
changing. I know that many of the riders that break the rules are not
educated about the basic rules, but I do not believe that I am being naive when
I say that obeying the rules as I mentioned (and this seems to have taken on the
need for massive detail) in urban areas (especially when there are auto drivers
around watching the cyclist blow a light.... does alot of harm with regard to
all cyclists. I wish more folks rode bikes (got out of their rolling
caskets) and then they would understand what we deal with when riding. I
know that there are always going to be drivers that will kill cyclists with
their autos.... but the more we can do to gain respect one person at a time will
help. Many good points have been made here. I hope we all
gain. Thanks for pointing out how I was unclear in my other
response. </FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=murp-@hotmail.com
href="mailto:murphy_-@hotmail.com">Peter Murphy</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title-@topica.com
href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A> ; <A
title=-@lists.riseup.net
href="mailto:shi-@lists.riseup.net">shi-@lists.riseup.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January 26, 2005 10:27
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct
(long, but hopefully worth your time)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=RTE>
<P>How is a cyclist supposed to earn the respect of car drivers when car
drivers don't even respect each other?</P>
<P>Even if all the cyclists followed every rule of the road, cars and truck
drivers would not respect them because bicycles are an impediment
to their destination, for which they are already late. </P>
<P>I am not advocating disregarding the rules, quite the contrary. I believe
in obeying traffic laws. But to think that you will gain respect from a part
of the population, who believes you have no right to the asphalt, by just
obeying traffic laws is naiive and about as productive as arguing with Lars
Larson on the phone. </P>
<P>Advocate for heavier traffic fines and prosecution of the people who break
the law. This includes cyclists. If a cyclist blows a red light and
gets caught, fine 'em, but also fine the car that did not come to a complete
stop beore making a right turn on a red light.<BR><BR>Pete Murphy </P></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<P> </P>
<P>>From: ron strasser <ron-@spiritone.com> </P>
<DIV></DIV>>Reply-To: ron-@spiritone.com
<DIV></DIV>>To: sus-@teamestrogen.com, CycleO-@yahoogroups.com, 'obra'
<ob-@topica.com>, shi-@lists.riseup.net
<DIV></DIV>>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but
hopefully worth your time)
<DIV></DIV>>Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 19:54:13 -0800
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>>I agree that the bottom line is for us cyclists to not break
the rules of
<DIV></DIV>>the road (especially in busy urban areas and country roads that
have poor
<DIV></DIV>>sightlines). The auto drivers that see rules being
disobeyed or have to
<DIV></DIV>>deal with it will not remember the other riders that are riding
properly. I
<DIV></DIV>>urge cyclists to keep the respect of most motor vehicle drivers
by being
<DIV></DIV>>courteous and riding in a predictable manner. I know that we
cannot stop a
<DIV></DIV>>driver from breaking the rules of the road...but two wrongs do
not make a
<DIV></DIV>>right. Even when you are in a hurry on your rides,
you make many decisions
<DIV></DIV>>based on your own safety. I would urge all to
consider obeying the rules of
<DIV></DIV>>the road as a personal safety decision... in the short and long
term.
<DIV></DIV>>ron strasser
<DIV></DIV>>----- Original Message -----
<DIV></DIV>>From: "Susan Otcenas" <sus-@teamestrogen.com>
<DIV></DIV>>To: <CycleO-@yahoogroups.com>; "'obra'"
<ob-@topica.com>;
<DIV></DIV>><shi-@lists.riseup.net>
<DIV></DIV>>Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 5:05 PM
<DIV></DIV>>Subject: [OBRA Chat] Code of Conduct (long, but hopefully worth
your time)
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>> > Apologies in advance for cross-posting to more than one
e-list.
<DIV></DIV>> >
<DIV></DIV>> > Yesterday, the Oregonian published a Letter to the Editor
that I wrote
<DIV></DIV>>after
<DIV></DIV>> > reading about the latest hit-and-run here on the west
side. Should you
<DIV></DIV>>care
<DIV></DIV>> > to read it, here's a link to my letter
<DIV></DIV>> >
<DIV></DIV>>http://www.oregonlive.com/letters/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/editorial/110639
<DIV></DIV>> > 8840172300.xml
<DIV></DIV>> > as well as the original article
<DIV></DIV>> >
<DIV></DIV>>http://www.oregonlive.com/metrowest/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/metro_west_new
<DIV></DIV>> > s/110544844993880.xml
<DIV></DIV>> >
<DIV></DIV>> > Predictably, yesterday evening I received an anonymous
phone call from
<DIV></DIV>> > "Jack" who wanted to talk about my
letter. Luckily, he wasn't a nutcase,
<DIV></DIV>> > and we had an hour-long conversation about the
differences between the way
<DIV></DIV>> > cyclists and motorists see the world. It was a
productive conversation,
<DIV></DIV>> > with both of us conceding a few points.
<DIV></DIV>> >
<DIV></DIV>> > Jack's biggest beef with cyclists was the way in which
cyclists often seem
<DIV></DIV>> > to flaunt the rules of the road. Running red
lights and stop signs,
<DIV></DIV>>riding
<DIV></DIV>> > 3 abreast or in packs that do not move over when vehicles
approach from
<DIV></DIV>> > behind, failing to signal, etc. We demand
"respect" and assert our
<DIV></DIV>> > "rights", yet fail to observe the rules
ourselves. Frankly, I agree with
<DIV></DIV>> > him. Sure, motorists break the rules all the
time, but it doesn't matter.
<DIV></DIV>> > WE CAN NOT OCCUPY THE MORAL HIGH GROUND WHILE NOT OBEYING
THE RULES
<DIV></DIV>> > OURSELVES.
<DIV></DIV>> >
<DIV></DIV>> > I want to start a discussion on a "code of conduct" of
sorts.
<DIV></DIV>> >
<DIV></DIV>> > ### Note:
<DIV></DIV>> > - If you wish to debate the evilness of autos, please
start another
<DIV></DIV>>thread.
<DIV></DIV>> > - If you wish to debate the war in Iraq, please start
another thread.
<DIV></DIV>> > - If you wish to debate the FAIRNESS of said rules, DON'T
start a thread.
<DIV></DIV>> > Pony up the bucks to join the BTA, or better yet
volunteer your time with
<DIV></DIV>> > them to advocate for change.
<DIV></DIV>> > ###
<DIV></DIV>> >
<DIV></DIV>> > The fact is, the rules are the rules, such as they
are. If we ever wish
<DIV></DIV>>to
<DIV></DIV>> > gain the respect of the motorists, we have to do a better
job of obeying
<DIV></DIV>>the
<DIV></DIV>> > rules of the road. And we have to figure out a
way to politely tell our
<DIV></DIV>> > fellow cyclists that certain behavior is not
acceptable. There's a lot to
<DIV></DIV>> > be said for peer pressure.
<DIV></DIV>> >
<DIV></DIV>> > In response to a recent post about police ticketing
cyclists who were not
<DIV></DIV>> > stopping at a particular intersection yesterday, I would
very much like to
<DIV></DIV>> > commend the OBRA members who pointed that no e-mail
"warning" should be
<DIV></DIV>> > necessary. My favorite was:
<DIV></DIV>> >
<DIV></DIV>> > "Remember the "three R's" of cycling:
<DIV></DIV>> >
<DIV></DIV>> > Same road
<DIV></DIV>> > Same
rules
<DIV></DIV>> > Same
rights"
<DIV></DIV>> >
<DIV></DIV>> > For myself, I'm making a pledge to do
better. I know I can't/won't be
<DIV></DIV>> > perfect. But I'm going to re-double my efforts
to stop at every stop sign
<DIV></DIV>> > instead of sometimes rolling through when it's
"clear". I'm going to ask
<DIV></DIV>> > friends on group rides to be more conscious of
approaching vehicles so
<DIV></DIV>>that
<DIV></DIV>> > we can be courteous to our fellow citizens by allowing
them to safely
<DIV></DIV>>pass.
<DIV></DIV>> > I'm going to re-read "Pedal Power, A Legal Guide for
Oregon Bicyclists" so
<DIV></DIV>>I
<DIV></DIV>> > can be sure of my rights and responsibilities (free
download available at
<DIV></DIV>> > http://www.stc-law.com/bikepower.html ). I'm
hoping that some of you
<DIV></DIV>>will
<DIV></DIV>> > also take some time to look at how you use your bicycle,
and see if there
<DIV></DIV>> > isn't some small way in which you can improve as
well. Every action we as
<DIV></DIV>> > individuals take is seen as representative of our entire
class--especially
<DIV></DIV>> > if it's a negative action, which reinforces what
motorists already think
<DIV></DIV>>and
<DIV></DIV>> > expect.
<DIV></DIV>> >
<DIV></DIV>> > So, I pose two questions:
<DIV></DIV>> >
<DIV></DIV>> > 1) What's the best way for individual cyclists to
communicate with other
<DIV></DIV>> > individual cyclists, on the road, about behaving?
<DIV></DIV>> >
<DIV></DIV>> > And
<DIV></DIV>> >
<DIV></DIV>> > 2) What would be the most effective way for an
organization (like the BTA,
<DIV></DIV>> > OBRA, the Wheelman, etc.) to do broad outreach to the
cycling community on
<DIV></DIV>> > this issue?
<DIV></DIV>> >
<DIV></DIV>> > I apologize if this e-mail has come across as
preachy. That's not my
<DIV></DIV>> > intent. I just think we need to figure out a
way to peacefully co-exist
<DIV></DIV>> > with motorists and this seems like a good way to
start. Please don't
<DIV></DIV>>flame
<DIV></DIV>> > me if you disagree. Constructive criticism and
discussion welcome.
<DIV></DIV>> >
<DIV></DIV>> > Susan
<DIV></DIV>> >
<DIV></DIV>> > --------------------------------------------
<DIV></DIV>> > Susan Otcenas
<DIV></DIV>> > TEAM ESTROGEN, INC. __~o
<DIV></DIV>> > 2038 NW Aloclek Dr., Suite 220
-\_<,
<DIV></DIV>> > Hillsboro, OR 97124 (*)/'(*)
<DIV></DIV>> >
<DIV></DIV>> > http://www.TeamEstrogen.com
<DIV></DIV>> > 1-877-310-4592
<DIV></DIV>> > --------------------------------------------
<DIV></DIV>> > Cycling Apparel and Accessories for Women
<DIV></DIV>> > --------------------------------------------
<DIV></DIV>> >
<DIV></DIV>> > To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.
<DIV></DIV>> > To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org
<DIV></DIV>> > To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com
<DIV></DIV>> >
<DIV></DIV>> >
<DIV></DIV>> >
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.
<DIV></DIV>>To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org
<DIV></DIV>>To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV></DIV><PRE>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.
To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org
To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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