OBRA: OBRA Chat: Re: $ for MTB series in 200...

Luciano bailey

2006-01-06

Take a cue from the Veloshop cross races equal pay mens and womens and

prizes 6 deep now thats worth the price of admission

From: Randy Dreiling <ragg-@yahoo.com>

Reply-To: ragg-@yahoo.com

To: omer-@yahoo.com, OBRA <ob-@topica.com>

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] $ for MTB series in 2006, Saturday races

Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 22:03:17 -0800 (PST)

It's true I look at other state reg fee's and pay out

and we cost less to race and pay out more

Speaking of that I just got the word today, thanks to

1st Tech Credit Union the 1st place Pro Men's winner

will win $250 at the Oakridge FTF this year.

Take Care

Randy

--- Omer Kem <omer-@yahoo.com> wrote:

I raced the entire OBRA MTB Series in 2003. At that

time there was only one series and there was a TON

of

races. I can remember it being normal for at least

100-150 bucks for 1st overall and the money going 5

places deep. Thats was great payout for any type of

local racing. I did some NorCal road races and it

was

easy to make 100 bucks in primes in a local crit,

but

there was NO money for the overall finish. The same

could be said for the road races. If you looked at

the

state of MTB racing in the US, OBRA has some of the

best races and best payouts of ANY local series....

Omer

http://omerkem.blogspot.com/

__________________________________________

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Randy Dreiling

2006-01-06

It's true I look at other state reg fee's and pay out

and we cost less to race and pay out more

Speaking of that I just got the word today, thanks to

1st Tech Credit Union the 1st place Pro Men's winner

will win $250 at the Oakridge FTF this year.

Take Care

Randy

--- Omer Kem <omer-@yahoo.com> wrote:

I raced the entire OBRA MTB Series in 2003. At that

time there was only one series and there was a TON

of

races. I can remember it being normal for at least

100-150 bucks for 1st overall and the money going 5

places deep. Thats was great payout for any type of

local racing. I did some NorCal road races and it

was

easy to make 100 bucks in primes in a local crit,

but

there was NO money for the overall finish. The same

could be said for the road races. If you looked at

the

state of MTB racing in the US, OBRA has some of the

best races and best payouts of ANY local series....

Omer

http://omerkem.blogspot.com/

__________________________________________

Yahoo! DSL ? Something to write home about.

Just $16.99/mo. or less.

dsl.yahoo.com

Cheryl J. Willson

2006-01-06

Personally, I would love to get a "Save the Spotted Owl - race in the

summer" t-shirt or something...not that I am planning to race much

this year.

Also, I didn't know that road racing was glamorous!

Anyway, on a more serious note, the mountain bike information is

being consolidated with the rest of the information on the OBRA site.

Mountain bike forms will be on the main forms page, mountain bike

results on the main results page with the rest of the results etc.

The schedule will also be consolidated with the road, track and

cyclocross schedule. If there is a great demand, we can create a

mountain bike "view" of the schedule that will only display mountain

bike races. For now, it is as it has been, "MTB" will be added to

mountain bike race names on the schedule.

Happy January everybody! Go skiing or sledding or something before

its too late!

Cheryl

On Jan 6, 2006, at 4:36 PM, Molly Cameron wrote:

Randy you put on good events. I think you should include little

bits of

info, like the spotted owl situation on your race flyers. (people love

that kinda stuff, "did you know the spotted owls are killing our

season!" they'll talk about it on rides and it creates interest in

your

events! (that may have been a bad example but, it will help you to

dispel myths about why there are NO mtn races in the early summer.)

Mountain racing in particular lacks the glamor of road and cross and,

thus lacks the allure. We have got to figure out how to make it more

attractive.

You should know I'm not being specifically critical to your events,

just

racing events in general. I'm guilty of it, at our last cross race, I

underadvertised, underprepared and did NOT have the prizes that I

posted

I would have. People were PISSED I did not have the ribbbons and

swag I

printed I would provide. (they would not have cared had I NOT

posted it)

It was a mistake I'll not repeat and gave me great insight into what

more serious (read: dedicated) race promoters have to do to

effectively

put on a killer event.

Mike Murray once said something to me about not having a "core

group" of

racers being the main problem with women's racing. The same is applied

to ALL mountain and track racing. (not just women's racing) If

there is

not a core group of a few people going to ALL the races there are less

chances that new people are going to tag along.

I also think the fact that mountain biking is just fracking hard. (the

hardest type of racing in my book.) It is a challenge just to stay on

your bike at some courses. It is so damn hard that we train all

winter,

get stomped in the wet, miserable spring, get poor results and then

rationalise that spending the $50 to go race Willamette pass, for

example (the fun but, far away, and expensive, I'll have to get a day

off of work early) is not worth it. It is so hard that is turns people

away and it is easier to go do funner (less tiring, less expensive)

stuff in the summer.

Actually I think Willamette pass is one of the funnest races.

Well, back to the point, I'm not totally happy with the "new" Oregon

mountain bike racing website. I NEVER reference it. I still just

use the

OBRA calendar and click directly on the race links from there.

Candi, correct me if I'm wrong but, OBRA will allocate the funds to

have

a nicer website built and maintained. I think we should do it, make it

very, very similar to the current OBRA site in style and content. But

for the mountain bikers.

Randy Dreiling wrote:

I agree with Brian and he also in the end noted some

promoters do get the word out...I think the issue is

lumping Mt Bike races in general together is not good.

I also race and I know I do my best to get flyers out

and post reminders in advance on OBRA, but I have had

a hard time finding info on other events too.

Randy

--- Brian Ellin <brian-@gmail.com> wrote:

As a MTB racer, I feel i should speak up here.

Last year I lost interest in MTB racing as the

season progressed. Why?

Mainly because I felt that the promoters had also

lost interest. I want to

be excited to show up and race. I don't want to

have to scour the web for

information about the race or watch the OBRA list

the Friday before for

directions, all to show up and race against the 5

people who did the same.

An example:

http://www.oregonvelo.com/mtbseries/outback/

What is the course like? Who is sponsoring it? How

long are the laps?

Last year's results? Are we all starting at 1pm?

Prizes? Raffle? Why

should I travel and pay $32 to do a race I know

nothing about? What if i'm

not an internet person?

Compare the MTB race flyers and websites to

something like the cross

crusade's and then look at the turnout. Where is

the effort?

I should note that there were many well promoted and

well executed MTB races

this year. Good job to all the racers and

promoters! I'll be out there

again in 2006, and am trying hard to get my friends

excited about racing

MTB.

Thanks for listening,

Brian Ellin

Veloshop

211 SW 9th ave.

Portland 97205

503.335.Velo

http://www.veloshop.org

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

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Molly Cameron

2006-01-06

Ha! Sal Collura just walked in the Veloshop to present me with my race

cash and swag from the Psycho cross series last fall.

Now that is good timing...

Schreck, George wrote:

I still find it surprising that people care about prize money for

amateur racing. I would think a good race should be all that would

count. After all, given the cost of equipment and the time spent

training, $50 or $100 of occasional prize money is a rather poor

economic return.

-----Original Message-----

From: Omer Kem [mailto:omer-@yahoo.com]

Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 4:39 PM

To: OBRA

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] $ for MTB series in 2006, Saturday races

I raced the entire OBRA MTB Series in 2003. At that

time there was only one series and there was a TON of

races. I can remember it being normal for at least

100-150 bucks for 1st overall and the money going 5

places deep. Thats was great payout for any type of

local racing. I did some NorCal road races and it was

easy to make 100 bucks in primes in a local crit, but

there was NO money for the overall finish. The same

could be said for the road races. If you looked at the

state of MTB racing in the US, OBRA has some of the

best races and best payouts of ANY local series....

Veloshop

211 SW 9th ave.

Portland 97205

503.335.Velo

http://www.veloshop.org

Schreck, George

2006-01-06

I still find it surprising that people care about prize money for

amateur racing. I would think a good race should be all that would

count. After all, given the cost of equipment and the time spent

training, $50 or $100 of occasional prize money is a rather poor

economic return.

-----Original Message-----

From: Omer Kem [mailto:omer-@yahoo.com]

Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 4:39 PM

To: OBRA

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] $ for MTB series in 2006, Saturday races

I raced the entire OBRA MTB Series in 2003. At that

time there was only one series and there was a TON of

races. I can remember it being normal for at least

100-150 bucks for 1st overall and the money going 5

places deep. Thats was great payout for any type of

local racing. I did some NorCal road races and it was

easy to make 100 bucks in primes in a local crit, but

there was NO money for the overall finish. The same

could be said for the road races. If you looked at the

state of MTB racing in the US, OBRA has some of the

best races and best payouts of ANY local series....

Omer

http://omerkem.blogspot.com/

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Schreck, George

2006-01-06

I do know that the Silverton road race that was traditionally held in

hot sunny July, tended to have small numbers. Last year they held the

race in the worst weather (other than cyclocross) in which I have ever

raced (people kept dropping out every lap), and they had a record

turnout. I think people with family responsibilities may find it harder

to get away for a race during the good weather, as there may be more

family oriented responsibilities that require their attention. Not

having a family I have no basis for this conclusion, however.

-----Original Message-----

From: RCJoh-@attglobal.net [mailto:RCJoh-@attglobal.net]

Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 4:33 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] $ for MTB series in 2006, Saturday races

My interest in the weather was more to do with the earlier races as the

summer events are pretty predictable in that respect. Since the issue

of racing in the cold/wet has been raised as a negative motivating

factor I was curious to see if that would show up in the attendance

figures.

What I'm hoping to devine is intended to help everyone. On one hand if

we just stick to the established recipe for sucess we can expect only

races in April and May that are part of a series to be highly sucessful.

But, if we can reach some conclusions about what are the significant

factors behind that attendance peak we can perhaps improve attendance at

more events.

To me the key questions are:

Is the calendar date really as significant as it seems on the surface?

To see that big of a change there must be something behind it. Perhaps

April and May are just "magic months". Many have speculated but we have

not uncovered the rock where these missing racers go to hide under come

June.

How much effect does the weather (or perceived weather) really have? Is

there a "weather threshhold" where attendance can be predicted to

suffer? Or is all the talk about weather really just whining?

Rick

Randy Dreiling wrote:

There are 3 races in the "Summer" (oakridge, fall city

and lakeview)and all had great sunny days if I

remember right and has I said in one of my many

replies not sure if it was to this or the misinfo post

on my 12 Hour that went into a lot of race issue's

too...if you want other issue's look at my 12 Hour

reply and remember I am not trying to be rude or

whine, just explain what happens every year and how

other think effect race turn out.. Oakridge, Fall

City and Lakview can not race any sooner Oakridge and

Fall City because of spotted owls and Lakeview because

the snow is still on the course until late June.

I am glad this came up

Thanks

Randy

--- RCJoh-@attglobal.net wrote:

Now we're getting somewhere, interesting analysis.

My questions then,

since you have the data:

For the two seasons what was the difference in the

total number of races

offered prior to the peak period?

Clearly the value of being part of a series is

significant. Was the

number of series races available after May

comparable for both seasons?

Weather has been sited by some as an attendance

factor. I suppose it's

too much to ask that there was some way to analyze

if there was a

correlation with attendance? For instance, could it

be determined if

attendance is better for sunny/warm races or are the

other factors more

significant?

Rick

shane.-@comcast.net wrote:

Last year did not have a compressed schedule like

years past, at least

for the series that Randy and Mike put on. Still

there was a

significate drop in riders for the MTB series the

first week in June. I

did a simple anlysis from the numbers last year

and the year before that

Candi supplied. Races that had the greatest turn

out had these things

in common in order of biggest factor:

were in April and May,

were apart of the high school series,

were apart of the Oregon MTB series,

were on Sunday.

Races in April and May had nearly double the

racers and in some case

almost triple. Races that were in the high school

series had 40 to 50

riders more. Races that not apart of the Oregon

MTB series lost 1/4 to

1/2 of their attendance from years that they were

in the series. Races

that were on Sunday had more people that races on

Saturday.

I don't think that the schedule is skewed by any

other factor than sheer

demand.

-------------- Original message --------------

From: Randy Dreiling <ragg-@yahoo.com>

Great question...one thing is that JR's stop

racing

and they can be 15%-30% of the turn out at some

Mt

Bike races.

Other then that I would love to know the answer.

Randy

--- RCJoh-@attglobal.net wrote:

What I'd really like to know about this

attendance

drop-off phenomenon

is if it is causative or symptomatic?

In other words - is the cause of the

attendance drop

off because people

simply don't want to race after that date?

Or is the drop off a symptom of the highly

compressed schedule inducing

burn-out, and therefore, lack of attendance?

I'm not meaning to be argumentative, just that

clearly understanding the

situation requires an accurate diagnosis.

Rick

Randy Dreiling wrote:

Number of racers at Mt Bike races drop by a

HUGE

amount after May or June every year. Been

promoting

10 years and you can see the drop.

Thanks

Randy

--- RCJoh-@attglobal.net wrote:

---------------------------------

Sounds good as long as we don't wind up with

yet

more races stackedfrom late February through

May.

Remember the tread from a few months ago

discussing

why is the racecalender so heavily weighted

to the

earliest part of the season andgoes through

the

doldrums just when the weather is at it's

nicest?

Rick

brice-@hotmail.com wrote:

Another vote for more Saturday races.Evan

Plews

wrote:

How about some Saturday races for a change.

Doesn't

anyone go to church on Sunday anymore? Bunch

of

heathens anyway :)Actually that brings up a

good

point. Are cyclists generally religious or

not???Kori

Kunz wrote:

In an attempt to decide which races to focus

on

(since I would really like to do all of them

but

know

that's not a sustainable approach) I'm

wondering

what

kinds of MTB series are out there this year,

and

which one offers the best prize money. Yep,

I'm

not

looking for any more trophies on my mantel,

just

going

straight for the mercenary incentive. Of

course

I'll

also be weighing the amount of single track

in

proportion to the distance to drive (and

conflicting

road races), but the dollars will be a very

influential factor. Mike? Randy? Petr? What

are

you serving up this year? Looking forward to

it.

Cheers, Kori

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the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add

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__________________________________________

Yahoo! DSL - Something to write home about.

Just $16.99/mo. or less.

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To respond to the list manager send to

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=== message truncated ===

__________________________________________

Yahoo! DSL - Something to write home about.

Just $16.99/mo. or less.

dsl.yahoo.com

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This email is confidential and may be legally privileged.

It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this email by anyone else, unless expressly approved by the sender or an authorized addressee, is unauthorized.

If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action omitted or taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you believe that you have received this email in error, please contact the sender, delete this e-mail and destroy all copies.

==============================================================================

Omer Kem

2006-01-06

I raced the entire OBRA MTB Series in 2003. At that

time there was only one series and there was a TON of

races. I can remember it being normal for at least

100-150 bucks for 1st overall and the money going 5

places deep. Thats was great payout for any type of

local racing. I did some NorCal road races and it was

easy to make 100 bucks in primes in a local crit, but

there was NO money for the overall finish. The same

could be said for the road races. If you looked at the

state of MTB racing in the US, OBRA has some of the

best races and best payouts of ANY local series....

Omer

http://omerkem.blogspot.com/

Molly Cameron

2006-01-06

Randy you put on good events. I think you should include little bits of

info, like the spotted owl situation on your race flyers. (people love

that kinda stuff, "did you know the spotted owls are killing our

season!" they'll talk about it on rides and it creates interest in your

events! (that may have been a bad example but, it will help you to

dispel myths about why there are NO mtn races in the early summer.)

Mountain racing in particular lacks the glamor of road and cross and,

thus lacks the allure. We have got to figure out how to make it more

attractive.

You should know I'm not being specifically critical to your events, just

racing events in general. I'm guilty of it, at our last cross race, I

underadvertised, underprepared and did NOT have the prizes that I posted

I would have. People were PISSED I did not have the ribbbons and swag I

printed I would provide. (they would not have cared had I NOT posted it)

It was a mistake I'll not repeat and gave me great insight into what

more serious (read: dedicated) race promoters have to do to effectively

put on a killer event.

Mike Murray once said something to me about not having a "core group" of

racers being the main problem with women's racing. The same is applied

to ALL mountain and track racing. (not just women's racing) If there is

not a core group of a few people going to ALL the races there are less

chances that new people are going to tag along.

I also think the fact that mountain biking is just fracking hard. (the

hardest type of racing in my book.) It is a challenge just to stay on

your bike at some courses. It is so damn hard that we train all winter,

get stomped in the wet, miserable spring, get poor results and then

rationalise that spending the $50 to go race Willamette pass, for

example (the fun but, far away, and expensive, I'll have to get a day

off of work early) is not worth it. It is so hard that is turns people

away and it is easier to go do funner (less tiring, less expensive)

stuff in the summer.

Actually I think Willamette pass is one of the funnest races.

Well, back to the point, I'm not totally happy with the "new" Oregon

mountain bike racing website. I NEVER reference it. I still just use the

OBRA calendar and click directly on the race links from there.

Candi, correct me if I'm wrong but, OBRA will allocate the funds to have

a nicer website built and maintained. I think we should do it, make it

very, very similar to the current OBRA site in style and content. But

for the mountain bikers.

Randy Dreiling wrote:

I agree with Brian and he also in the end noted some

promoters do get the word out...I think the issue is

lumping Mt Bike races in general together is not good.

I also race and I know I do my best to get flyers out

and post reminders in advance on OBRA, but I have had

a hard time finding info on other events too.

Randy

--- Brian Ellin <brian-@gmail.com> wrote:

As a MTB racer, I feel i should speak up here.

Last year I lost interest in MTB racing as the

season progressed. Why?

Mainly because I felt that the promoters had also

lost interest. I want to

be excited to show up and race. I don't want to

have to scour the web for

information about the race or watch the OBRA list

the Friday before for

directions, all to show up and race against the 5

people who did the same.

An example:

http://www.oregonvelo.com/mtbseries/outback/

What is the course like? Who is sponsoring it? How

long are the laps?

Last year's results? Are we all starting at 1pm?

Prizes? Raffle? Why

should I travel and pay $32 to do a race I know

nothing about? What if i'm

not an internet person?

Compare the MTB race flyers and websites to

something like the cross

crusade's and then look at the turnout. Where is

the effort?

I should note that there were many well promoted and

well executed MTB races

this year. Good job to all the racers and

promoters! I'll be out there

again in 2006, and am trying hard to get my friends

excited about racing

MTB.

Thanks for listening,

Brian Ellin

Veloshop

211 SW 9th ave.

Portland 97205

503.335.Velo

http://www.veloshop.org

RCJoh-@attglobal.net

2006-01-06

My interest in the weather was more to do with the earlier races as the

summer events are pretty predictable in that respect. Since the issue

of racing in the cold/wet has been raised as a negative motivating

factor I was curious to see if that would show up in the attendance

figures.

What I'm hoping to devine is intended to help everyone. On one hand if

we just stick to the established recipe for sucess we can expect only

races in April and May that are part of a series to be highly sucessful.

But, if we can reach some conclusions about what are the significant

factors behind that attendance peak we can perhaps improve attendance at

more events.

To me the key questions are:

Is the calendar date really as significant as it seems on the surface?

To see that big of a change there must be something behind it. Perhaps

April and May are just "magic months". Many have speculated but we have

not uncovered the rock where these missing racers go to hide under come

June.

How much effect does the weather (or perceived weather) really have? Is

there a "weather threshhold" where attendance can be predicted to

suffer? Or is all the talk about weather really just whining?

Rick

Randy Dreiling wrote:

There are 3 races in the "Summer" (oakridge, fall city

and lakeview)and all had great sunny days if I

remember right and has I said in one of my many

replies not sure if it was to this or the misinfo post

on my 12 Hour that went into a lot of race issue's

too...if you want other issue's look at my 12 Hour

reply and remember I am not trying to be rude or

whine, just explain what happens every year and how

other think effect race turn out.. Oakridge, Fall

City and Lakview can not race any sooner Oakridge and

Fall City because of spotted owls and Lakeview because

the snow is still on the course until late June.

I am glad this came up

Thanks

Randy

--- RCJoh-@attglobal.net wrote:

Now we're getting somewhere, interesting analysis.

My questions then,

since you have the data:

For the two seasons what was the difference in the

total number of races

offered prior to the peak period?

Clearly the value of being part of a series is

significant. Was the

number of series races available after May

comparable for both seasons?

Weather has been sited by some as an attendance

factor. I suppose it's

too much to ask that there was some way to analyze

if there was a

correlation with attendance? For instance, could it

be determined if

attendance is better for sunny/warm races or are the

other factors more

significant?

Rick

shane.-@comcast.net wrote:

Last year did not have a compressed schedule like