Glen Gann

Let's not turn this into a North /South thing. The BAR was never meant to
determine who the best rider is. It's a reward for those that are good at
more than one discilpine and incentive to race for something other than the
prize list. I also think that it encourages people to race whether it's big
or small. If you think some people are out cherry picking points, then to
me, it sounds like they're doing exactly what OBRA is all about -- RACING.
If it's not broke don't fix it.

Glen Gann
----- Original Message -----
From: "Candi Murray"
To:
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 10:24 AM
Subject: [OBRA Chat] FW: Subject: RE: Comment on proposed BAR changes

>
>
>
> So how do you balance things like riders in Medford getting full points
> for
> a race with 2 riders in it and people placing 13,14, 15 in fields of 20+
> get
> next to nothing? We are talking the BAR here, how do you get the cream to
> rise to the top when there is unbalanced points with regard to the
> difficulty of the event?
> Candi
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Hoyt [mailto:mg.hoyt@charter.net]
> Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 9:15 AM
> To: obra@topica.com
> Subject: Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Comment on proposed BAR changes
>
> I know the intent is to limit cherry picking BAR points, but its quite
> a bit more complicated than that.
>
> First of all, small fields don't always guarantee weak competition and
> easy pickin' of points. We've had Thursday Nighter races down here that
> may have had very small fields, but included Steve Larsen, Maurice
> Torano, Josh Conner, Glen Gann, and Richard Hogan (and those were the
> slow guys ). Points there are well earned.
>
> Second, anyone who lives away from the Eugene to Portland corridor (say
> in Medford) has to really want to race to be even remotely competitive
> in the BAR. We have to travel 6 hours to get to race 30 minutes at the
> State Hill Climb. How about changing the system by adding a travel time
> multiplier. We could multiply BAR points by the hours it takes to get
> to a race and then tally them. Maybe then a race like the Mayor's Cup,
> a race that had a $10,000 purse, could survive.
>
> Last, but not least. This will really screw promoters of smaller races
> and as an indirect effect, the people who want to race, but aren't hard
> core enough to travel many hours to do it. It will have a negative
> effect on rural racing that is certainly not intentional and far more
> damaging to the sport than "fairness" in the BAR points race.
>
> Please reconsider.
>
> Mike Hoyt
> Cycle Analysis
> Jacksonville
>
> To respond to the whole group send to obra@topica.com.
> To respond to the list manager send to cmurray@obra.org
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Joe Cipale

Rick C Johnson wrote:

> So how about splitting the difference? Assume that for large races the
> level of competition will be higher and award a bonus (either
> percentage above average attendance or point value per person). But
> for smaller races let's not assume they are necessarily "easy", nor
> penalize them for being less successful, and leave the points at the
> normal level.
> I do find sympathy with the argument of travel to more distant races.
> If I was concerned with the BAR (which I'm not) I might feel put out
> at the prospect of getting partial credit for a race some distance
> from home (such as last years Return of the Jedi, which I drove over
> 400 miles to attend).
>

To qoute a commercial from the 70's:
"Where's the Beef?"

I dont know of any one, personally who finds the current setup a
problem. Why make it that much more
of a pain in the ass to compute BAR points?

Joe

Rick C Johnson

So how about splitting the difference? Assume that for large races the
level of competition will be higher and award a bonus (either
percentage above average attendance or point value per person). But for
smaller races let's not assume they are necessarily "easy", nor
penalize them for being less successful, and leave the points at the
normal level.

I do find sympathy with the argument of travel to more distant races.
If I was concerned with the BAR (which I'm not) I might feel put out at
the prospect of getting partial credit for a race some distance from
home (such as last years Return of the Jedi, which I drove over 400
miles to attend).



Summarized proposal:

Keep current BAR points as is except for the following:

Determine average attendance from previous season by type (MTB, Road,
Cross, etc.).

• All events with below average attendance no BAR points adjustment.

• All events greater than average attendance apply bonus, choose
  one of the following methods:

1. Percentage over average determines point bonus. Example:
   attendance is 50% above average therefore points are multiplied by 1.5.


2. Point per competitor over average. Example: field has 15
   competitors over average, assign extra points (1 point per = 15 point
   bonus, 1/2 point per = 7.5 point bonus, etc).
   
   

The percentage method would be very easy to implement in an Excel
spread sheet using formulas. Point per competitor could be burdensome
to track. The difference between the two being the rate at which bonus
points accumulate and therefore the significance of the bonus.

I feel strongly that whatever the solution (if any) it should respect
the popularity differences between different disciplines, hence my
suggestion that any points adjustment take into account the average
field size.



Rick





Candi Murray wrote:

So how do you balance things like riders in Medford  getting full points for

a race with 2 riders in it and people placing 13,14, 15 in fields of 20+ get

next to nothing? We are talking the BAR here, how do you get the cream to

rise to the top when there is unbalanced points with regard to the

difficulty of the event?

Candi

-----Original Message-----

From: Michael Hoyt [mailto:mg.hoyt@charter.net] 

Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 9:15 AM

To: obra@topica.com

Subject: Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Comment on proposed BAR changes

I know the intent is to limit cherry picking BAR points, but its quite 

a bit more complicated than that.

First of all, small fields don't always guarantee weak competition and 

easy pickin' of points. We've had Thursday Nighter races down here that 

may have had very small fields, but included Steve Larsen, Maurice 

Torano, Josh Conner, Glen Gann, and Richard Hogan (and those were the 

slow guys <g>). Points there are well earned.

Second, anyone who lives away from the Eugene to Portland corridor (say 

in Medford) has to really want to race to be even remotely competitive 

in the BAR. We have to travel 6 hours to get to race 30 minutes at the 

State Hill Climb. How about changing the system by adding a travel time 

multiplier. We could multiply BAR points by the hours it takes to get 

to a race and then tally them. Maybe then a race like the Mayor's Cup, 

a race that had a $10,000 purse, could survive.

Last, but not least. This will really screw promoters of smaller races 

and as an indirect effect, the people who want to race, but aren't hard 

core enough to travel many hours to do it. It will have a negative 

effect on rural racing that is certainly not intentional and far more 

damaging to the sport than "fairness" in the BAR points race.

Please reconsider.

Mike Hoyt

Cycle Analysis

Jacksonville

To respond to the whole group send to obra@topica.com.

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Jay Rideout

Another way might be to re-distribute points in a
smaller field. For example if you only had a field of
3 then award full first place points (16) then second
would would receive (8) and third would receive (1).
A two person field would receive (16) and (1).
Distributions could be predetermined up to the full
ten person field to eliminate pressure on race
organizers if there are fractional dividends.

I see the 1/2 point valuations as having a negative on
race organizers, sponsors, and participants. If the
potential for receiving full points for a first place
finish remains the potential of attracting larger
fields remains intact also.
Jay
--- Candi Murray wrote:

>
>
>
> So how do you balance things like riders in Medford
> getting full points for
> a race with 2 riders in it and people placing 13,14,
> 15 in fields of 20+ get
> next to nothing? We are talking the BAR here, how do
> you get the cream to
> rise to the top when there is unbalanced points with
> regard to the
> difficulty of the event?
> Candi
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Hoyt [mailto:mg.hoyt@charter.net]
> Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 9:15 AM
> To: obra@topica.com
> Subject: Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Comment on
> proposed BAR changes
>
> I know the intent is to limit cherry picking BAR
> points, but its quite
> a bit more complicated than that.
>
> First of all, small fields don't always guarantee
> weak competition and
> easy pickin' of points. We've had Thursday Nighter
> races down here that
> may have had very small fields, but included Steve
> Larsen, Maurice
> Torano, Josh Conner, Glen Gann, and Richard Hogan
> (and those were the
> slow guys ). Points there are well earned.
>
> Second, anyone who lives away from the Eugene to
> Portland corridor (say
> in Medford) has to really want to race to be even
> remotely competitive
> in the BAR. We have to travel 6 hours to get to race
> 30 minutes at the
> State Hill Climb. How about changing the system by
> adding a travel time
> multiplier. We could multiply BAR points by the
> hours it takes to get
> to a race and then tally them. Maybe then a race
> like the Mayor's Cup,
> a race that had a $10,000 purse, could survive.
>
> Last, but not least. This will really screw
> promoters of smaller races
> and as an indirect effect, the people who want to
> race, but aren't hard
> core enough to travel many hours to do it. It will
> have a negative
> effect on rural racing that is certainly not
> intentional and far more
> damaging to the sport than "fairness" in the BAR
> points race.
>
> Please reconsider.
>
> Mike Hoyt
> Cycle Analysis
> Jacksonville
>
> To respond to the whole group send to
> obra@topica.com.
> To respond to the list manager send to
> cmurray@obra.org
> To unsubscribe send to obra-unsubscribe@topica.com
>
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Candi Murray

So how do you balance things like riders in Medford getting full points for
a race with 2 riders in it and people placing 13,14, 15 in fields of 20+ get
next to nothing? We are talking the BAR here, how do you get the cream to
rise to the top when there is unbalanced points with regard to the
difficulty of the event?
Candi

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Hoyt [mailto:mg.hoyt@charter.net]
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 9:15 AM
To: obra@topica.com
Subject: Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Comment on proposed BAR changes

I know the intent is to limit cherry picking BAR points, but its quite
a bit more complicated than that.

First of all, small fields don't always guarantee weak competition and
easy pickin' of points. We've had Thursday Nighter races down here that
may have had very small fields, but included Steve Larsen, Maurice
Torano, Josh Conner, Glen Gann, and Richard Hogan (and those were the
slow guys ). Points there are well earned.

Second, anyone who lives away from the Eugene to Portland corridor (say
in Medford) has to really want to race to be even remotely competitive
in the BAR. We have to travel 6 hours to get to race 30 minutes at the
State Hill Climb. How about changing the system by adding a travel time
multiplier. We could multiply BAR points by the hours it takes to get
to a race and then tally them. Maybe then a race like the Mayor's Cup,
a race that had a $10,000 purse, could survive.

Last, but not least. This will really screw promoters of smaller races
and as an indirect effect, the people who want to race, but aren't hard
core enough to travel many hours to do it. It will have a negative
effect on rural racing that is certainly not intentional and far more
damaging to the sport than "fairness" in the BAR points race.

Please reconsider.

Mike Hoyt
Cycle Analysis
Jacksonville

To respond to the whole group send to obra@topica.com.
To respond to the list manager send to cmurray@obra.org
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