Schreck, George

I hope no one feels there posts are in intended to push people away from
racing. There always will be crashes and people always will make
mistakes. The purpose of the posts is to try to minimize them by
pointing out particularly risky or foolish behavior, and it is not
limited necessarily to novices.

I hope you do decide to race. The sport needs new people and I expect
that you will find it fun (at least once your brain again receives
oxygen between to really hard and painful parts). OBRA is like a big
family and I expect that you will meet a lot of riders you will like.
You may make a mistake from time to time, but it happens. That is why
there are categories, and even the experts make mistakes. The important
thing is to learn form your mistakes and others.

A good way to learn some skills is to join a team and attend the
training rides. It is a great opportunity to learn under less stressful
conditions.

Hope to see you at the races.

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of KG
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 11:21 AM
To: Mike Ruff; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Crash Cat 4 Cherry Pie

I have to thank you for your post. I'm one of the feared novice
riders that bought a road bike and thought I'd 'walk on' into bike
racing. Usually the worst thing one can do as a newbie is embarrass
themselves. The thought that my beginner status could contribute to
crippling someone sends chills down my back. Even though the below
incident appears to be more of an enthusiasm issue it's really brought
to light how much other riders must trust you not to screw up. After
reading all these posts I realize I have much to learn. I guess all I
can ask is that you constructively help the new guys. You were all
beginners once...

----- Original Message ----
From: Mike Ruff
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 2:08:13 PM
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Crash Cat 4 Cherry Pie

I was not going to post any info about my crash because at first I was
worried that someone might think I was looking for sympathy. After some
thought I reconsidered with the belief that someone might learn
something from my accident.

Coming in to the finish line I was bumped pretty hard on the left side
by someone that was trying to move up by squeezing between the yellow
line and myself. There was NO room for this. Is this a tactic that we
want to continue to use?

The bump sent me off my line (that I was following very diligently) and
into the rider next to me. I leaned very hard on that rider (sorry I
was in survival mode). I then overcorrected back to the left where my
front wheel got tangled up causing me to go down. Yes it hurt badly.

My first visit to the emergency room they took x rays of my hip and said
everthing was fine. They sent me home after cleaning my road rash. Got
a call the next day and said I needed to come in for a CT scan. After
the doctor reviewed it he was highly upset because there was a very
obvious break in the hip socket.

Long story short according to the Ortho: If the fracture were 2mm
higher I would need plates and screws. If the fractured part had been
separated I would require a hip replacement. I am to be off the bike
for 8 weeks.

There is another scenario: The person trying to squeeze through on the
center line could get bumped into the oncomming lane into a car.

Hope someone can learn something from this. I would not recommend
trying to get into the front by riding on the yellow. If you are not in
front, you won't be contesting the sprint. There is just not enough
room.

Ride safe, see you in Mid April.
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It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this email by anyone else, unless expressly approved by the sender or an authorized addressee, is unauthorized.

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KG

I have to thank you for your post. I'm one of the feared novice riders that bought a road bike and thought I'd 'walk on' into bike racing. Usually the worst thing one can do as a newbie is embarrass themselves. The thought that my beginner status could contribute to crippling someone sends chills down my back. Even though the below incident appears to be more of an enthusiasm issue it's really brought to light how much other riders must trust you not to screw up. After reading all these posts I realize I have much to learn. I guess all I can ask is that you constructively help the new guys. You were all beginners once...

----- Original Message ----
From: Mike Ruff
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 2:08:13 PM
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Crash Cat 4 Cherry Pie

I was not going to post any info about my crash because at first I was worried that someone might think I was looking for sympathy. After some thought I reconsidered with the belief that someone might learn something from my accident.

Coming in to the finish line I was bumped pretty hard on the left side by someone that was trying to move up by squeezing between the yellow line and myself. There was NO room for this. Is this a tactic that we want to continue to use?

The bump sent me off my line (that I was following very diligently) and into the rider next to me. I leaned very hard on that rider (sorry I was in survival mode). I then overcorrected back to the left where my front wheel got tangled up causing me to go down. Yes it hurt badly.

My first visit to the emergency room they took x rays of my hip and said everthing was fine. They sent me home after cleaning my road rash. Got a call the next day and said I needed to come in for a CT scan. After the doctor reviewed it he was highly upset because there was a very obvious break in the hip socket.

Long story short according to the Ortho: If the fracture were 2mm higher I would need plates and screws. If the fractured part had been separated I would require a hip replacement. I am to be off the bike for 8 weeks.

There is another scenario: The person trying to squeeze through on the center line could get bumped into the oncomming lane into a car.

Hope someone can learn something from this. I would not recommend trying to get into the front by riding on the yellow. If you are not in front, you won't be contesting the sprint. There is just not enough room.

Ride safe, see you in Mid April.
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http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Steven B

ALL categories are susceptible to sprint crashes, it's
part of racing at all levels. Of course I'm speaking
on behalf of a teammate who was almost killed a couple
years ago in a Cat 3 sprint. It all comes down to
respecting the rules and each other. We're not racing
for big bucks (don't start that thread again!!) but
for fun I thought.

--- Edward Kendrick Sr
wrote:

> Injured folks should respond to this... You can't
> ride very fast in a wheelchair. OBRA doesn't allow
> wheelchairs in races. This makes Cat. 3 and Masters
> look pretty good, but I am no longer old enough to
> race Masters, in Oregon. Since I can't afford to
> spend half of my life recovering from broken bones,
> just let me know when you're coming through?!...
>
> Eric Kytola wrote: Maybe
> cat 4's and cat 5's shouldn't get placed in the
> finish at all. It
> would be like a big fast group ride. They could work
> on their pack
> skills without worrying about competing. That way
> climbers won't have
> advantage on hills, sprinters won't have an
> advantage at 1K and strong
> guys won't need to break away. Dang! You wouldn't
> even need teams!
>
> Everyone could just clap for them as they ride
> through the "ending" line
> in mass. Heck, you wouldn't even have to ride fast.
>
> Shucker?
>

__________________________________________________
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Edward Kendrick Sr

Injured folks should respond to this... You can't ride very fast in a wheelchair. OBRA doesn't allow wheelchairs in races. This makes Cat. 3 and Masters look pretty good, but I am no longer old enough to race Masters, in Oregon. Since I can't afford to spend half of my life recovering from broken bones, just let me know when you're coming through?!...

Eric Kytola wrote: Maybe cat 4's and cat 5's shouldn't get placed in the finish at all. It
would be like a big fast group ride. They could work on their pack
skills without worrying about competing. That way climbers won't have
advantage on hills, sprinters won't have an advantage at 1K and strong
guys won't need to break away. Dang! You wouldn't even need teams!

Everyone could just clap for them as they ride through the "ending" line
in mass. Heck, you wouldn't even have to ride fast.

Shucker?

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Schreck, George
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 5:39 PM
To: Duncan Calver; jonathan@bikeportland.org; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Crash Cat 4 Cherry Pie

I guess I am not very impressed by people who race for 200 meters, but
my real issues is people who try to force their way through when they
are out of position. You may get away with it at the skill level of the
pros, but at the amateur level it is too risky. People are not as used
to getting bumped and staying upright, and we do not get paid for taking
these risks.

-----Original Message-----
From: Duncan Calver [mailto:duncancalver@msn.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 5:22 PM
To: jonathan@bikeportland.org; Schreck, George; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Crash Cat 4 Cherry Pie

I always thought that's how Cippollini and Petacchi won all those
races...I'm sure more than a few of us try to emulate the pro
methods...don't knock the sprinters who sit back all day...they ARE very

fast for 100m...much faster than me, which is why I get the hell out of
the
way. All's fair in racing...keep the rubber side down and play it
safe...

D

>From: "Jonathan Maus"
>To: ,
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Crash Cat 4 Cherry Pie
>Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 14:35:38 -0800
>
>On 2/22/2006 2:26:38 PM, Schreck, George
(george.schreck@pacificorp.com)
>wrote:
> > It is a bit ridiculous that guys who sit in the back all day and do
no
> > work, suddenly think that they deserve to sprint for the win and try
to
> > force their way to the front at the end. If you want to be near the
> > front at the end, ride near the front during the race and do some
work.
> > If you want to ride in the back all day, then just roll in with the
pack
> > and consider it a workout.
>
>I think we need to be careful about telling people how they should
race.
>In my opinion, everyone has a right to contest the finish, regardless
of
>where they are in the pack, or how they've ridden all day. That's what

>racing is all about. Sitting back all day and going like hell at the
end
>is a strategy for some people (I don't agree with it but that doesn't
mean
>it's not OK).
>
>Yes, safety and smarts are the key, but no one can say who has the
right to
>go for the win at the end.
>
>--Jonathan
>-------------------------------
>BikePortland.org
>"Local news, events, culture and opinion"
>(503) 283-8855
>http://bikeportland.org
>
>

>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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---------------------------------
Brings words and photos together (easily) with
PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail.

Eric Kytola

Maybe cat 4's and cat 5's shouldn't get placed in the finish at all. It
would be like a big fast group ride. They could work on their pack
skills without worrying about competing. That way climbers won't have
advantage on hills, sprinters won't have an advantage at 1K and strong
guys won't need to break away. Dang! You wouldn't even need teams!

Everyone could just clap for them as they ride through the "ending" line
in mass. Heck, you wouldn't even have to ride fast.

Shucker?

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Schreck, George
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 5:39 PM
To: Duncan Calver; jonathan@bikeportland.org; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Crash Cat 4 Cherry Pie

I guess I am not very impressed by people who race for 200 meters, but
my real issues is people who try to force their way through when they
are out of position. You may get away with it at the skill level of the
pros, but at the amateur level it is too risky. People are not as used
to getting bumped and staying upright, and we do not get paid for taking
these risks.

-----Original Message-----
From: Duncan Calver [mailto:duncancalver@msn.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 5:22 PM
To: jonathan@bikeportland.org; Schreck, George; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Crash Cat 4 Cherry Pie

I always thought that's how Cippollini and Petacchi won all those
races...I'm sure more than a few of us try to emulate the pro
methods...don't knock the sprinters who sit back all day...they ARE very

fast for 100m...much faster than me, which is why I get the hell out of
the
way. All's fair in racing...keep the rubber side down and play it
safe...

D

>From: "Jonathan Maus"
>To: ,
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Crash Cat 4 Cherry Pie
>Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 14:35:38 -0800
>
>On 2/22/2006 2:26:38 PM, Schreck, George
(george.schreck@pacificorp.com)
>wrote:
> > It is a bit ridiculous that guys who sit in the back all day and do
no
> > work, suddenly think that they deserve to sprint for the win and try
to
> > force their way to the front at the end. If you want to be near the
> > front at the end, ride near the front during the race and do some
work.
> > If you want to ride in the back all day, then just roll in with the
pack
> > and consider it a workout.
>
>I think we need to be careful about telling people how they should
race.
>In my opinion, everyone has a right to contest the finish, regardless
of
>where they are in the pack, or how they've ridden all day. That's what

>racing is all about. Sitting back all day and going like hell at the
end
>is a strategy for some people (I don't agree with it but that doesn't
mean
>it's not OK).
>
>Yes, safety and smarts are the key, but no one can say who has the
right to
>go for the win at the end.
>
>--Jonathan
>-------------------------------
>BikePortland.org
>"Local news, events, culture and opinion"
>(503) 283-8855
>http://bikeportland.org
>
>

>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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john

Heh Mike R. and obra,

As I sit at home with my broken leg I know exactly what you are going through and am really feeling for you. I can't imagine a hip break.

It is very very important to share cause it reminds us what the consequences are. Believe me breaking a leg is probably the worst thing that has ever happened to me... (my break was my own doing though... )

You should have moved over to the left a little more and crowded the yellow line, So that he couldn't even attempt to bump in. (unless of course a car suddenly appeared !) but I wasn't there so I don't know exactly how you were bumped... and things happen so quick...

George is very correct in all his statements.

With the down-time from my broken leg I have time to write this big long email. I apoligize if its too long but I hope it will help.

Also I had time to go through my racing logs and journals from the past 17 years and so first to establish my crediblity: I've done over 120 road races since 1989 most in the midwest( MI,IN,IL) and In nearly half of those races entered, I have placed top ten or better... Although about half have been done at cat 3 or cat 1-2-3 level, a lot, the other half of those races were done as Junior or as a Cat 4. Without teammates or with only one teammate. (i've raced OBRA seriously only in year 2000 and 2005 and at 40-50 lbs more weight! so yes I am a cat 4 ).

First if you want to place in a normal road race or crit you have to be in the front (an exception is PIR, more later). In most of my races there was always a full field. My experience was that if you constantly fought for the front by constantly filling gaps and keeping things tight then you could maintain your location in the pack. If you "slept" for even a little you would quickly be in the back. To get back near the front was hard work. Usually you could only do it at corners or when attacks happened or on hills because only then would gaps open up and allow you to shoot for the front but of course everyone else was sprinting for the same.

My Experience was that if you weren't already in the front (this means in the top 10 riders), you had to start trying at least 5-10 miles before the end of the race in order to work your way up there, and then be willing to put in some serious effort to stay there.. If you weren't in the front at a mile to go, FORGET IT !! your race is over !! There was just no way unless some big miracle gap opened up.

And I've been in a few races where I actually was right near the front (like 3rd line) but the guys in the front decided not to sprint until like less than 100 yards and so everyone was blocked in and there was absolutely nothing we could do except yell "go, someone GO" (to smiles and deaf ears of the front line) as we slowly rolled (literally) towards the finish line... Hmm i think that front line had same colored jerseys ?

I still remember a junior race with our 53x15 gearing, and we had been all spun out for miles before the finish. It was hilarious, the sprint was just whereever you happened to be in the pack...no one could really pass anyone else.

PIR: Those whose main racing experience is PIR, need to realize that PIR is NOT like any other normal race! PIR is so wide that you can move up anytime you feel like. Someone else mentioned chaotic. There is no structure cause the road doesn't force any. The finish is always sort of a gamble on to which line to follow to the finish and I have actually seen people place well coming from the back of the pack which I find just incredible. The dynamics of PIR are vastly different than a normal road race or crit. But in addition, I have also found that in the normal oregon road races and crits, it is really easy to move to the front as compared to races I have done in the past in the midwest. There are always big gaps. Of course you still better move up before the last little bit if you want to place...

In all my races in the midwest I have been in very few and have seen very few crashes. And really only one serious crash in a crit. Seriouly I could count them on one hand and a couple of which were simple crashes from riding off the road from a strong blast of wind

Even this past fall on a weekend visit to my brother in Ohio, we did a Cat 4 road race together. Narrow winding roads and a 50 mph descent. But I was amazed on the descent the pack was still fairly close, Just no one touched their brakes, no-one panicked, everyone trusted each other. and No crashes of course.

I am sorry to say, but Racing here in Oregon is more dangerous. Obviously its not the races, its the riders, and I have had to really keep my wits about me.

One of my first obra races was a bannana belt in 2000. Good God I almost got crashed three times. I really was just amazed by that and that somehow I didn't go down too. And then this past year almost everytime I was at PIR there were crashes or near crashes. And a couple times I was run off the road by swerving riders..

Solution ? :
1. Club rides. Especially for beginers or those of you who have only done cyclecross. And sorry, just sauntering rides although great are not enough. You have to have short hard club rides on nearly flat roads, to give beginners a feel for the speed, and the closeness (that is necesarry to keep from getting dropped). And it helps to have experienced riders giving feedback at least for a few rides... Club rides of 20 plus riders are huge in the midwest in almost every town with a bike shop. This is where people learn to ride and race.
2. Practice riding close to people. Practice pacelines. In general, if you are a racer, whenever you are riding with anyone else, you should be doing pacelines and riding close to one another. Even on a casual ride, ride side by side and chat. You should get comfortable with handlebars only 2 to 3 inches away. Yes you may touch occasionally but thats all that will happen and its all learning not to panic.. Yes you need a good spin and a quiet upper body.
3. Never ever make sudden movements if you know there are people around you. Always assume they are to the side of you or are overlapped on your rear wheel. Never ever brake in a pack if you can help it. That doesn't mean you can't move to the side or etc.. you just have to do it slowly.
4. You need to spin when riding in a pack. Seriously there are all kinds of benefits to a good spin. One of them is its safer.
5. Ride at Alpenrose Velodrome. Other than my one time getting crashed, it really is quite safe, safety awareness is heightened and everyone is trained quite well. Go to at least two Wednes training classes. And also read up on velodrome safety and then ask a lot of questions too.
6. If you don't have a club, ride with PWTC. Seriously their Tue Wed or Thur rides will provide some good group riding dynamics. Their pacelines aren't great but its better than nothing !
7. If by yourself practice riding on the white line...

That is all I can think of off the top of my head. Of course that advice probably wouldn't have prevented the crash at cherry pie.?.

A lot of people say crashes are part of racing. That they are not uncommon.
Sorry that's bullshit ! Crashes should be an exception, a rarity. Seriously when I raced in the midwest, crashes just were never a concern, were really never on my mind, because they rarely happened.

Duncan Calver

perhaps. I stand corrected.

>From: "Adams, Mike"
>To: "Duncan Calver"
>,,,
>Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Crash Cat 4 Cherry Pie
>Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 19:49:56 -0600
>
>When I see a team that winds it up at 20k to 5k to go and then kicks it up
>another notch i.e. Saeco's red train or the imitation of it by Petacchi's
>blue train, and can stay on that wheel at 50kph and with 1k left can kick
>it up to 60kph, then you can talk dropping the rif raf and sprinting for
>home until then sit in and come home safe.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Duncan Calver [mailto:duncancalver@msn.com]
>Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 5:22 PM
>To: jonathan@bikeportland.org; george.schreck@pacificorp.com;
>obra@list.obra.org
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Crash Cat 4 Cherry Pie
>
>
>I always thought that's how Cippollini and Petacchi won all those
>races...I'm sure more than a few of us try to emulate the pro
>methods...don't knock the sprinters who sit back all day...they ARE very
>fast for 100m...much faster than me, which is why I get the hell out of the
>way. All's fair in racing...keep the rubber side down and play it safe...
>
>D
>
>
> >From: "Jonathan Maus"
> >To: ,
> >Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Crash Cat 4 Cherry Pie
> >Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 14:35:38 -0800
> >
> >On 2/22/2006 2:26:38 PM, Schreck, George (george.schreck@pacificorp.com)
> >wrote:
> > > It is a bit ridiculous that guys who sit in the back all day and do no
> > > work, suddenly think that they deserve to sprint for the win and try
>to
> > > force their way to the front at the end. If you want to be near the
> > > front at the end, ride near the front during the race and do some
>work.
> > > If you want to ride in the back all day, then just roll in with the
>pack
> > > and consider it a workout.
> >
> >I think we need to be careful about telling people how they should race.
> >In my opinion, everyone has a right to contest the finish, regardless of
> >where they are in the pack, or how they've ridden all day. That's what
> >racing is all about. Sitting back all day and going like hell at the end
> >is a strategy for some people (I don't agree with it but that doesn't
>mean
> >it's not OK).
> >
> >Yes, safety and smarts are the key, but no one can say who has the right
>to
> >go for the win at the end.
> >
> >--Jonathan
> >-------------------------------
> >BikePortland.org
> >"Local news, events, culture and opinion"
> >(503) 283-8855
> >http://bikeportland.org
> >
> >
>
>
> >_______________________________________________
> >OBRA mailing list
> >obra@list.obra.org
> >http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
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>obra@list.obra.org
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>

Adams, Mike

When I see a team that winds it up at 20k to 5k to go and then kicks it up another notch i.e. Saeco's red train or the imitation of it by Petacchi's blue train, and can stay on that wheel at 50kph and with 1k left can kick it up to 60kph, then you can talk dropping the rif raf and sprinting for home until then sit in and come home safe.

-----Original Message-----
From: Duncan Calver [mailto:duncancalver@msn.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 5:22 PM
To: jonathan@bikeportland.org; george.schreck@pacificorp.com;
obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Crash Cat 4 Cherry Pie

I always thought that's how Cippollini and Petacchi won all those
races...I'm sure more than a few of us try to emulate the pro
methods...don't knock the sprinters who sit back all day...they ARE very
fast for 100m...much faster than me, which is why I get the hell out of the
way. All's fair in racing...keep the rubber side down and play it safe...

D

>From: "Jonathan Maus"
>To: ,
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Crash Cat 4 Cherry Pie
>Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 14:35:38 -0800
>
>On 2/22/2006 2:26:38 PM, Schreck, George (george.schreck@pacificorp.com)
>wrote:
> > It is a bit ridiculous that guys who sit in the back all day and do no
> > work, suddenly think that they deserve to sprint for the win and try to
> > force their way to the front at the end. If you want to be near the
> > front at the end, ride near the front during the race and do some work.
> > If you want to ride in the back all day, then just roll in with the pack
> > and consider it a workout.
>
>I think we need to be careful about telling people how they should race.
>In my opinion, everyone has a right to contest the finish, regardless of
>where they are in the pack, or how they've ridden all day. That's what
>racing is all about. Sitting back all day and going like hell at the end
>is a strategy for some people (I don't agree with it but that doesn't mean
>it's not OK).
>
>Yes, safety and smarts are the key, but no one can say who has the right to
>go for the win at the end.
>
>--Jonathan
>-------------------------------
>BikePortland.org
>"Local news, events, culture and opinion"
>(503) 283-8855
>http://bikeportland.org
>
>

>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
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Schreck, George

I guess I am not very impressed by people who race for 200 meters, but
my real issues is people who try to force their way through when they
are out of position. You may get away with it at the skill level of the
pros, but at the amateur level it is too risky. People are not as used
to getting bumped and staying upright, and we do not get paid for taking
these risks.

-----Original Message-----
From: Duncan Calver [mailto:duncancalver@msn.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 5:22 PM
To: jonathan@bikeportland.org; Schreck, George; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Crash Cat 4 Cherry Pie

I always thought that's how Cippollini and Petacchi won all those
races...I'm sure more than a few of us try to emulate the pro
methods...don't knock the sprinters who sit back all day...they ARE very

fast for 100m...much faster than me, which is why I get the hell out of
the
way. All's fair in racing...keep the rubber side down and play it
safe...

D

>From: "Jonathan Maus"
>To: ,
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Crash Cat 4 Cherry Pie
>Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 14:35:38 -0800
>
>On 2/22/2006 2:26:38 PM, Schreck, George
(george.schreck@pacificorp.com)
>wrote:
> > It is a bit ridiculous that guys who sit in the back all day and do
no
> > work, suddenly think that they deserve to sprint for the win and try
to
> > force their way to the front at the end. If you want to be near the
> > front at the end, ride near the front during the race and do some
work.
> > If you want to ride in the back all day, then just roll in with the
pack
> > and consider it a workout.
>
>I think we need to be careful about telling people how they should
race.
>In my opinion, everyone has a right to contest the finish, regardless
of
>where they are in the pack, or how they've ridden all day. That's what

>racing is all about. Sitting back all day and going like hell at the
end
>is a strategy for some people (I don't agree with it but that doesn't
mean
>it's not OK).
>
>Yes, safety and smarts are the key, but no one can say who has the
right to
>go for the win at the end.
>
>--Jonathan
>-------------------------------
>BikePortland.org
>"Local news, events, culture and opinion"
>(503) 283-8855
>http://bikeportland.org
>
>

>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This email is confidential and may be legally privileged.

It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this email by anyone else, unless expressly approved by the sender or an authorized addressee, is unauthorized.

If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action omitted or taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you believe that you have received this email in error, please contact the sender, delete this e-mail and destroy all copies.

==============================================================================

Duncan Calver

I always thought that's how Cippollini and Petacchi won all those
races...I'm sure more than a few of us try to emulate the pro
methods...don't knock the sprinters who sit back all day...they ARE very
fast for 100m...much faster than me, which is why I get the hell out of the
way. All's fair in racing...keep the rubber side down and play it safe...

D

>From: "Jonathan Maus"
>To: ,
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Crash Cat 4 Cherry Pie
>Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 14:35:38 -0800
>
>On 2/22/2006 2:26:38 PM, Schreck, George (george.schreck@pacificorp.com)
>wrote:
> > It is a bit ridiculous that guys who sit in the back all day and do no
> > work, suddenly think that they deserve to sprint for the win and try to
> > force their way to the front at the end. If you want to be near the
> > front at the end, ride near the front during the race and do some work.
> > If you want to ride in the back all day, then just roll in with the pack
> > and consider it a workout.
>
>I think we need to be careful about telling people how they should race.
>In my opinion, everyone has a right to contest the finish, regardless of
>where they are in the pack, or how they've ridden all day. That's what
>racing is all about. Sitting back all day and going like hell at the end
>is a strategy for some people (I don't agree with it but that doesn't mean
>it's not OK).
>
>Yes, safety and smarts are the key, but no one can say who has the right to
>go for the win at the end.
>
>--Jonathan
>-------------------------------
>BikePortland.org
>"Local news, events, culture and opinion"
>(503) 283-8855
>http://bikeportland.org
>
>

>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Edward Kendrick Sr

Thank you, Mike, for telling us about this. I am not fully recovered from my accident last June. The worst part of being seriously injured, for me, was the huge change in lifestyle and mindset. After being off the bike so long, you have to start over with a base, and by that time its too late to match the training of the other guys.

Those of us, who want to be in this sport for another 50 yrs, or who have equivalent dedication, should play it safer in racing and training. If your position is lousy, for whatever reason, remember that there's always another race. (If your not that dedicated, try good sportsmanship.)

Sometimes lack of nerve or safety is the reason for dropping back. Since few of us are Greg Lemond, it's OK to trade placings for longevity.

Placing can be more related to racing frequently, than to taking higher risks in individual races.

Thanks again, Mike. I hope your recovery is smooth.

Ed

Mike Ruff wrote:
I was not going to post any info about my crash because at first I was worried that someone might think I was looking for sympathy. After some thought I reconsidered with the belief that someone might learn something from my accident.

Coming in to the finish line I was bumped pretty hard on the left side by someone that was trying to move up by squeezing between the yellow line and myself. There was NO room for this. Is this a tactic that we want to continue to use?

The bump sent me off my line (that I was following very diligently) and into the rider next to me. I leaned very hard on that rider (sorry I was in survival mode). I then overcorrected back to the left where my front wheel got tangled up causing me to go down. Yes it hurt badly.

My first visit to the emergency room they took x rays of my hip and said everthing was fine. They sent me home after cleaning my road rash. Got a call the next day and said I needed to come in for a CT scan. After the doctor reviewed it he was highly upset because there was a very obvious break in the hip socket.

Long story short according to the Ortho: If the fracture were 2mm higher I would need plates and screws. If the fractured part had been separated I would require a hip replacement. I am to be off the bike for 8 weeks.

There is another scenario: The person trying to squeeze through on the center line could get bumped into the oncomming lane into a car.

Hope someone can learn something from this. I would not recommend trying to get into the front by riding on the yellow. If you are not in front, you won't be contesting the sprint. There is just not enough room.

Ride safe, see you in Mid April.
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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Tim Schauer

I think that in races (or categories for that matter) where the number
of riders racing as individuals out number those racing as part of a
team with a "team goal" the risk of crashes goes up. Bike racing is a
team sport...that can also be ridden as an individual. But for an
individual (without a team to support them) to win they have to be
either super strong, be opportunistic, or take some risks getting to
into the ideal place without the help of teammates (or maybe all of the
above). In a race ending in a pack finish without some organized
lead-out by one or more teams, it becomes a mad dash to fit 20 or more
riders into and through a 3 or 4 rider hole.....This is risky for anyone
near by, centerline or no centerline. If you see this happening in your
race, recognize it and make an informed decision as to sprinting or not.

FOR EXAMPLE look at PIR. It shouldn't have any of this stuff, right?.
The course is plenty wide enough, right? But in the entry level
categories without a structured lead-out to the finish by teams or other
unselfish experienced riders, the danger in the pack sprint increases
and you have crashes. No structure means more risk. Chaos is
unpredictable, right? But hey...you might get lucky too, right?

I don't think you can change any of this, just hope to learn to
recognize these situations and make the best decision for yourself and
your race at that time and place.

-Tim Schauer

________________________________

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Chris Alling
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 3:22 PM
To: Schreck, George; Jonathan Maus; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Crash Cat 4 Cherry Pie

Just like clockwork. The season begins and everybody is all excited
crashes happen the discussion turns to center line violations and
strategy. The fact of the matter is that all strategies are fair game
and part of racing as long as the rules are followed. The rules are in
place for one reason to keep the racing fair and to protect all racers
involved in racing as best as possible.

I have been involved in crashes in the past due to over anxious riders
violating the center line and not playing by the rules. I feel that this
is an issue that puts everybody at an extreme risk and I would like to
see everybody in the race to turn in violators. Maybe then they will
stay on the correct side.

Chris Alling

Neil Kelly Cabinets

Commercial Sales Representative

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Schreck, George
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 2:46 PM
To: Jonathan Maus; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Crash Cat 4 Cherry Pie

I do not think it is inappropriate to tell people to race differently if
they force you way though areas where there in no room and cause a crash
or cross the center line like I see many people do. Usually, it is
people who race like that who cause many of the crashes. I think it is
appropriate to tell people how to race if they race like boneheads and
endanger others.

If they can pursue that strategy without endangering others, then it is
not an issue, and I have no objection to it (other than the fact that I
think it is crappy way to race).

________________________________

From: Jonathan Maus [mailto:jonathan@bikeportland.org]
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 2:36 PM
To: Schreck, George; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Crash Cat 4 Cherry Pie

On 2/22/2006 2:26:38 PM, Schreck, George (george.schreck@pacificorp.com)
wrote:
> It is a bit ridiculous that guys who sit in the back all day and do no
> work, suddenly think that they deserve to sprint for the win and try
to
> force their way to the front at the end. If you want to be near the
> front at the end, ride near the front during the race and do some
work.
> If you want to ride in the back all day, then just roll in with the
pack
> and consider it a workout.

I think we need to be careful about telling people how they should race.
In my opinion, everyone has a right to contest the finish, regardless of
where they are in the pack, or how they've ridden all day. That's what
racing is all about. Sitting back all day and going like hell at the
end is a strategy for some people (I don't agree with it but that
doesn't mean it's not OK).

Yes, safety and smarts are the key, but no one can say who has the right
to go for the win at the end.

--Jonathan
-------------------------------
BikePortland.org
"Local news, events, culture and opinion"
(503) 283-8855
http://bikeportland.org

------------------------------------------------------------------------
------

This email is confidential and may be legally privileged.

It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this email by anyone
else, unless expressly approved by the sender or an authorized
addressee, is unauthorized.

If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying,
distribution or any action omitted or taken in reliance on it, is
prohibited and may be unlawful. If you believe that you have received
this email in error, please contact the sender, delete this e-mail and
destroy all copies.

========================================================================
======

IMPORTANT NOTICE: This communication, including any
attachment, contains information that may be confidential
or privileged, and is intended solely for the entity or individual:
recipient, to whom it is addressed.
If you are not the intended recipient, you should contact
the sender and delete the message.

Chris Alling

Just like clockwork. The season begins and everybody is all excited
crashes happen the discussion turns to center line violations and
strategy. The fact of the matter is that all strategies are fair game
and part of racing as long as the rules are followed. The rules are in
place for one reason to keep the racing fair and to protect all racers
involved in racing as best as possible.

I have been involved in crashes in the past due to over anxious riders
violating the center line and not playing by the rules. I feel that this
is an issue that puts everybody at an extreme risk and I would like to
see everybody in the race to turn in violators. Maybe then they will
stay on the correct side.

Chris Alling

Neil Kelly Cabinets

Commercial Sales Representative

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Schreck, George
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 2:46 PM
To: Jonathan Maus; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Crash Cat 4 Cherry Pie

I do not think it is inappropriate to tell people to race differently if
they force you way though areas where there in no room and cause a crash
or cross the center line like I see many people do. Usually, it is
people who race like that who cause many of the crashes. I think it is
appropriate to tell people how to race if they race like boneheads and
endanger others.

If they can pursue that strategy without endangering others, then it is
not an issue, and I have no objection to it (other than the fact that I
think it is crappy way to race).

________________________________

From: Jonathan Maus [mailto:jonathan@bikeportland.org]
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 2:36 PM
To: Schreck, George; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Crash Cat 4 Cherry Pie

On 2/22/2006 2:26:38 PM, Schreck, George (george.schreck@pacificorp.com)
wrote:
> It is a bit ridiculous that guys who sit in the back all day and do no
> work, suddenly think that they deserve to sprint for the win and try
to
> force their way to the front at the end. If you want to be near the
> front at the end, ride near the front during the race and do some
work.
> If you want to ride in the back all day, then just roll in with the
pack
> and consider it a workout.

I think we need to be careful about telling people how they should race.
In my opinion, everyone has a right to contest the finish, regardless of
where they are in the pack, or how they've ridden all day. That's what
racing is all about. Sitting back all day and going like hell at the
end is a strategy for some people (I don't agree with it but that
doesn't mean it's not OK).

Yes, safety and smarts are the key, but no one can say who has the right
to go for the win at the end.

--Jonathan
-------------------------------
BikePortland.org
"Local news, events, culture and opinion"
(503) 283-8855
http://bikeportland.org

------------------------------------------------------------------------
------

This email is confidential and may be legally privileged.

It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this email by anyone
else, unless expressly approved by the sender or an authorized
addressee, is unauthorized.

If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying,
distribution or any action omitted or taken in reliance on it, is
prohibited and may be unlawful. If you believe that you have received
this email in error, please contact the sender, delete this e-mail and
destroy all copies.

========================================================================
======

IMPORTANT NOTICE: This communication, including any
attachment, contains information that may be confidential
or privileged, and is intended solely for the entity or individual:
recipient, to whom it is addressed.
If you are not the intended recipient, you should contact
the sender and delete the message.

Adams, Mike

Let us not loose sight of the ramifications of trying to squeeze through a tight spot 1,2,3k to the finish. You need to remember one very important point, and (1)it is your responsibility to ride with your safety and the other racer's safety in mind. If your blocked in wait for the 200m sign and hammer, realizing this, that at 25 to 35mph you will need to be in the top 20 to 25 riders to place top 10. The other more important thought is a fellow racer who has a wife and kids is injured because of your impatience. Sometimes it is best to roll in with the pack and call it a good training day. There is know conceivable reason to endanger another racers ability to race and go home uninjured. I would like to say more because I know the injured rider but my emotions might lead me to say what kind of idiot thinks placing is more important then another riders safety but I will try and be civil. Just a thought.
Mike Adams

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Ruff [mailto:staceyar@verizon.net]
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 2:08 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Crash Cat 4 Cherry Pie

I was not going to post any info about my crash because at first I was worried that someone might think I was looking for sympathy. After some thought I reconsidered with the belief that someone might learn something from my accident.

Coming in to the finish line I was bumped pretty hard on the left side by someone that was trying to move up by squeezing between the yellow line and myself. There was NO room for this. Is this a tactic that we want to continue to use?

The bump sent me off my line (that I was following very diligently) and into the rider next to me. I leaned very hard on that rider (sorry I was in survival mode). I then overcorrected back to the left where my front wheel got tangled up causing me to go down. Yes it hurt badly.

My first visit to the emergency room they took x rays of my hip and said everthing was fine. They sent me home after cleaning my road rash. Got a call the next day and said I needed to come in for a CT scan. After the doctor reviewed it he was highly upset because there was a very obvious break in the hip socket.

Long story short according to the Ortho: If the fracture were 2mm higher I would need plates and screws. If the fractured part had been separated I would require a hip replacement. I am to be off the bike for 8 weeks.

There is another scenario: The person trying to squeeze through on the center line could get bumped into the oncomming lane into a car.

Hope someone can learn something from this. I would not recommend trying to get into the front by riding on the yellow. If you are not in front, you won't be contesting the sprint. There is just not enough room.

Ride safe, see you in Mid April.
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Schreck, George

I do not think it is inappropriate to tell people to race differently if
they force you way though areas where there in no room and cause a crash
or cross the center line like I see many people do. Usually, it is
people who race like that who cause many of the crashes. I think it is
appropriate to tell people how to race if they race like boneheads and
endanger others.

If they can pursue that strategy without endangering others, then it is
not an issue, and I have no objection to it (other than the fact that I
think it is crappy way to race).

________________________________

From: Jonathan Maus [mailto:jonathan@bikeportland.org]
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 2:36 PM
To: Schreck, George; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Crash Cat 4 Cherry Pie

On 2/22/2006 2:26:38 PM, Schreck, George (george.schreck@pacificorp.com)
wrote:
> It is a bit ridiculous that guys who sit in the back all day and do no
> work, suddenly think that they deserve to sprint for the win and try
to
> force their way to the front at the end. If you want to be near the
> front at the end, ride near the front during the race and do some
work.
> If you want to ride in the back all day, then just roll in with the
pack
> and consider it a workout.

I think we need to be careful about telling people how they should race.
In my opinion, everyone has a right to contest the finish, regardless of
where they are in the pack, or how they've ridden all day. That's what
racing is all about. Sitting back all day and going like hell at the
end is a strategy for some people (I don't agree with it but that
doesn't mean it's not OK).

Yes, safety and smarts are the key, but no one can say who has the right
to go for the win at the end.

--Jonathan
-------------------------------
BikePortland.org
"Local news, events, culture and opinion"
(503) 283-8855
http://bikeportland.org

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This email is confidential and may be legally privileged.

It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this email by anyone else, unless expressly approved by the sender or an authorized addressee, is unauthorized.

If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action omitted or taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you believe that you have received this email in error, please contact the sender, delete this e-mail and destroy all copies.

==============================================================================

Long, Steve

Jonathan, maybe nobody should say how anybody else should race but we
should be able to say how not to seriously injure another rider. That's
just not okay, if you know what I mean.
If you've got some guy sitting in the back not doing any work, try and
figure out how to shell him and get ride of him. Otherwise, maybe do
like the pros do and just not help him at all and slow the pace down
drastically.

________________________________

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Jonathan Maus
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 2:36 PM
To: george.schreck@pacificorp.com; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Crash Cat 4 Cherry Pie

On 2/22/2006 2:26:38 PM, Schreck, George (george.schreck@pacificorp.com)
wrote:
> It is a bit ridiculous that guys who sit in the back all day and do no
> work, suddenly think that they deserve to sprint for the win and try
to
> force their way to the front at the end. If you want to be near the
> front at the end, ride near the front during the race and do some
work.
> If you want to ride in the back all day, then just roll in with the
pack
> and consider it a workout.

I think we need to be careful about telling people how they should race.
In my opinion, everyone has a right to contest the finish, regardless of
where they are in the pack, or how they've ridden all day. That's what
racing is all about. Sitting back all day and going like hell at the
end is a strategy for some people (I don't agree with it but that
doesn't mean it's not OK).

Yes, safety and smarts are the key, but no one can say who has the right
to go for the win at the end.

--Jonathan
-------------------------------
BikePortland.org
"Local news, events, culture and opinion"
(503) 283-8855
http://bikeportland.org

Jonathan Maus

On 2/22/2006 2:26:38 PM, Schreck, George (george.schreck@pacificorp.com) wrote:
> It is a bit ridiculous that guys who sit in the back all day and do no
> work, suddenly think that they deserve to sprint for the win and try to
> force their way to the front at the end. If you want to be near the
> front at the end, ride near the front during the race and do some work.
> If you want to ride in the back all day, then just roll in with the pack
> and consider it a workout.

I think we need to be careful about telling people how they should race. In my opinion, everyone has a right to contest the finish, regardless of where they are in the pack, or how they've ridden all day. That's what racing is all about. Sitting back all day and going like hell at the end is a strategy for some people (I don't agree with it but that doesn't mean it's not OK).

Yes, safety and smarts are the key, but no one can say who has the right to go for the win at the end.

--Jonathan
-------------------------------
BikePortland.org
"Local news, events, culture and opinion"
(503) 283-8855
http://bikeportland.org

Schreck, George

It is a bit ridiculous that guys who sit in the back all day and do no
work, suddenly think that they deserve to sprint for the win and try to
force their way to the front at the end. If you want to be near the
front at the end, ride near the front during the race and do some work.
If you want to ride in the back all day, then just roll in with the pack
and consider it a workout.

It may sound mean, but none of us want to end up on the ground to
satisfy a riders need for results despite his unwillingness to position
himself early and do some work. If you are boxed in, that is part of
tactics and live with the result. One rider's poor planning should not
be anyone else's problem.

Mike, I hope you recover soon.

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Ruff
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 2:08 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Crash Cat 4 Cherry Pie

I was not going to post any info about my crash because at first I was
worried that someone might think I was looking for sympathy. After some
thought I reconsidered with the belief that someone might learn
something from my accident.

Coming in to the finish line I was bumped pretty hard on the left side
by someone that was trying to move up by squeezing between the yellow
line and myself. There was NO room for this. Is this a tactic that we
want to continue to use?

The bump sent me off my line (that I was following very diligently) and
into the rider next to me. I leaned very hard on that rider (sorry I
was in survival mode). I then overcorrected back to the left where my
front wheel got tangled up causing me to go down. Yes it hurt badly.

My first visit to the emergency room they took x rays of my hip and said
everthing was fine. They sent me home after cleaning my road rash. Got
a call the next day and said I needed to come in for a CT scan. After
the doctor reviewed it he was highly upset because there was a very
obvious break in the hip socket.

Long story short according to the Ortho: If the fracture were 2mm
higher I would need plates and screws. If the fractured part had been
separated I would require a hip replacement. I am to be off the bike
for 8 weeks.

There is another scenario: The person trying to squeeze through on the
center line could get bumped into the oncomming lane into a car.

Hope someone can learn something from this. I would not recommend
trying to get into the front by riding on the yellow. If you are not in
front, you won't be contesting the sprint. There is just not enough
room.

Ride safe, see you in Mid April.
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Mike Ruff

I was not going to post any info about my crash because at first I was worried that someone might think I was looking for sympathy. After some thought I reconsidered with the belief that someone might learn something from my accident.

Coming in to the finish line I was bumped pretty hard on the left side by someone that was trying to move up by squeezing between the yellow line and myself. There was NO room for this. Is this a tactic that we want to continue to use?

The bump sent me off my line (that I was following very diligently) and into the rider next to me. I leaned very hard on that rider (sorry I was in survival mode). I then overcorrected back to the left where my front wheel got tangled up causing me to go down. Yes it hurt badly.

My first visit to the emergency room they took x rays of my hip and said everthing was fine. They sent me home after cleaning my road rash. Got a call the next day and said I needed to come in for a CT scan. After the doctor reviewed it he was highly upset because there was a very obvious break in the hip socket.

Long story short according to the Ortho: If the fracture were 2mm higher I would need plates and screws. If the fractured part had been separated I would require a hip replacement. I am to be off the bike for 8 weeks.

There is another scenario: The person trying to squeeze through on the center line could get bumped into the oncomming lane into a car.

Hope someone can learn something from this. I would not recommend trying to get into the front by riding on the yellow. If you are not in front, you won't be contesting the sprint. There is just not enough room.

Ride safe, see you in Mid April.