Mike Murray

This has been covered multiple times before as those of you that have been
here a while know. I have been contacted about this frequently for the past
several years. My answer has consistently been that this is a "not ready
for prime time" technology. I have attached a file that explains this in
more detail. Chip timing was used last year during the Cross Crusade and I
think that the results of that were consistent with my impressions. The
manually timing always beat the chip timing by several days. Conceptually
RFID chip timing is attractive but in practice it doesn't work as well as
one would hope. Reading numbers visually is not only cheaper but also
faster and more accurate then RFID technology as currently applied to bike
racing.

I also think that the "somebody couldn't read your number" statement over
trivializes this important item. Currently nearly all OBRA races will be
using a video camera, a digital photo finish camera as well as multiple
officials to read numbers. It is not just some bozo at the side of the road
not paying attention. If your number cannot be read it is nearly always
because you put it on wrong, wore something over it, etc. Riders are not
listed as DNF unless they have clearly made little effort to make their
number visible. The error is nearly always on the rider part. This would,
of course, occur with RFID chips too as riders would forget to put them on,
switch chips with other riders inadvertently, etc. Race numbers are an
integral part of the race judging process. Attention paid to using them
properly is just as important as putting air in your tires.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of James
Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2006 12:17 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] better timing devices for races?

I know Obra membership is very inexpensive for all the things the
organization does, but what if racers were allowed an "upgrade" fee for a
season that helped to cover the cost of a transponder or chip timing system?
I know there's nothing more disappointing then finishing a race only to find
out you were a DNF because somebody couldn't read your Obra number.

Heather VanValkenburg, Fdg.

And how about those numbers pinned on the right. Do you think the cows care
what your number is? Those are a joy to try and figure out.

-Heather VanValkenburg

----Original Message Follows----
From: "Brian L"
To: "'James'" ,
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] better timing devices for races?
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 13:04:10 -0700

I won't get into the problems with the chip timing systems. I think that
has been covered.

I'll just say that I would think if racers are willing to spend an extra
50-$1000 bucks for a license, it seems that we should be willing to simply
pin a number on so it can be read. Racers are not DNFed for having a number
that "somebody" can't read. They could be DNFed for having a number that
NOBODY could possibly read.

With the new photo finish camera, there are extremely clear pictures of the
finishes and tight sprints can easily be called. However, sometimes
officials still have to go back to the video camera and try to get another
shot of a number that is poorly placed. As stated earlier, 90% of the time
getting results is from trying to figure out loosely pinned or poorly placed
numbers. There is an extreme amount of effort given to figuring those
numbers out. However, sometimes it seems that some riders just don't care
if anyone can read their number.

If we all just take a little time to look at Mike's picture he posted
earlier, it should be clear where to best pin numbers. (For example, I
realized that I wasn't pinning my number high enough on my back.) Or maybe
the promoters should charge a nominal fee to pin numbers on for us?
(seriously, I'm not being sarcastic). If it is a popular service then maybe
some should start a business. I'm sure after pinning on 100 numbers you'd
get pretty good at it!

-brian

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of James
Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2006 12:17 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] better timing devices for races?

I know Obra membership is very inexpensive for all the things the
organization does, but what if racers were allowed an "upgrade" fee for a
season that helped to cover the cost of a transponder or chip timing system?
I know there's nothing more disappointing then finishing a race only to find
out you were a DNF because somebody couldn't read your Obra number.

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Dan Houghton

James, you did it now....
----- Original Message -----
From: James
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2006 12:17 PM
Subject: [OBRA Chat] better timing devices for races?

I know Obra membership is very inexpensive for all the things the organization does, but what if racers were allowed an "upgrade" fee for a season that helped to cover the cost of a transponder or chip timing system? I know there's nothing more disappointing then finishing a race only to find out you were a DNF because somebody couldn't read your Obra number.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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jakebigham

Problem is that the chips are not only expensive, but little better
in terms of reliability. At least judging from Alpenrose CX last year
On Apr 9, 2006, at 12:17 PM, James wrote:

> I know Obra membership is very inexpensive for all the things the
> organization does, but what if racers were allowed an "upgrade" fee
> for a season that helped to cover the cost of a transponder or chip
> timing system? I know there's nothing more disappointing then
> finishing a race only to find out you were a DNF because somebody
> couldn't read your Obra number.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Candi Murray

Your message confuses me because you are listed in 37 place in the Cat 4's.

Not sure what this all about

C

_____

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of James
Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2006 12:17 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] better timing devices for races?

I know Obra membership is very inexpensive for all the things the
organization does, but what if racers were allowed an "upgrade" fee for a
season that helped to cover the cost of a transponder or chip timing system?
I know there's nothing more disappointing then finishing a race only to find
out you were a DNF because somebody couldn't read your Obra number.

Ted

James,

With all due respect, I recommend that you simply make sure your number is placed and pinned properly so that it can be read by the officials. Ask an official to help you if necessary. We're more than happy to help. And if you're wearing a vest or jacket over your number at the race finish, that's your fault.

Ted

----- Original Message -----
From: James
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2006 12:17 PM
Subject: [OBRA Chat] better timing devices for races?

I know Obra membership is very inexpensive for all the things the organization does, but what if racers were allowed an "upgrade" fee for a season that helped to cover the cost of a transponder or chip timing system? I know there's nothing more disappointing then finishing a race only to find out you were a DNF because somebody couldn't read your Obra number.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Brian L

I won't get into the problems with the chip timing systems. I think that
has been covered.

I'll just say that I would think if racers are willing to spend an extra
50-$1000 bucks for a license, it seems that we should be willing to simply
pin a number on so it can be read. Racers are not DNFed for having a number
that "somebody" can't read. They could be DNFed for having a number that
NOBODY could possibly read.

With the new photo finish camera, there are extremely clear pictures of the
finishes and tight sprints can easily be called. However, sometimes
officials still have to go back to the video camera and try to get another
shot of a number that is poorly placed. As stated earlier, 90% of the time
getting results is from trying to figure out loosely pinned or poorly placed
numbers. There is an extreme amount of effort given to figuring those
numbers out. However, sometimes it seems that some riders just don't care
if anyone can read their number.

If we all just take a little time to look at Mike's picture he posted
earlier, it should be clear where to best pin numbers. (For example, I
realized that I wasn't pinning my number high enough on my back.) Or maybe
the promoters should charge a nominal fee to pin numbers on for us?
(seriously, I'm not being sarcastic). If it is a popular service then maybe
some should start a business. I'm sure after pinning on 100 numbers you'd
get pretty good at it!

-brian

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of James
Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2006 12:17 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] better timing devices for races?

I know Obra membership is very inexpensive for all the things the
organization does, but what if racers were allowed an "upgrade" fee for a
season that helped to cover the cost of a transponder or chip timing system?
I know there's nothing more disappointing then finishing a race only to find
out you were a DNF because somebody couldn't read your Obra number.

James

I know Obra membership is very inexpensive for all the things the
organization does, but what if racers were allowed an "upgrade" fee for a
season that helped to cover the cost of a transponder or chip timing
system? I know there's nothing more disappointing then finishing a race
only to find out you were a DNF because somebody couldn't read your Obra
number.