c.rycewicz@comcast.net

I also agree with much of what my friends and long time on and off competitors Jerry and Darell have to say. However, some of us who used to beat up on each other at alpenrose in the 80's are not as fast as we used to be and may occasionally have some difficulty actually racing guys in their thirties. Thus, I for one enjoy age graded racing because it actually provides an opportunity to still race, and with guys who I for the most part trust. The passing of training and tactical knowledge can be done on training rides and at PIR.

--
Christopher A. Rycewicz
c.rycewicz@comcast.net

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Jerald M Powell
I concur with Darell. The purpose of "Veterans" racing, as I've participated in it in Canada and in Europe wasn't at all to ensure a successful racing "opportunity" for everyone... It was primarily to give the "emeriti" from senior racing an opportunity to participate with their peers. It's not the only conceptual framework. Here, the USCF was strong-armed by the USOC into supporting age graded racing, starting with 30 year olds in order to be "consistent" with other US Olympic sport national organizations. It was (and is) a screwy idea that simply bleeds the senior athlete ranks of many of the most experienced and most competitive riders. There needs to be an incentive for aging riders to continue riding at the highest level they can maintain to do so... if for no other reason than to teach younger riders how to survive and maybe thrive in this sport.

I'm not sure that setting any arbitrary age by itself is the best answer. Maybe a combination of age and category like Washington was doing a few years ago is a better answer. Washington had "A" and "B" masters classes in the early/mid nineties. As I recall, the "A" class was 35 to 45 year old cat 3s and 4s and 45+ 1s and 2s. The "B" masters were everyone else (except cat 5 masters, who for safety reasons were required to race with their category). The result was that older masters who weren't competitive with the 35 year old cat 1 and 2 fields any longer came back to racing in the "B" class, the still fairly fast forty five year olds could beat up on each other and the slightly younger 3s and 4s, and the senior 1s and 2s didn't lose their most experienced talent to the masters field.

I'd have to say that Harry's implicit option of just having everyone race their category and letting the chips fall where they will does have some attraction... but only in frustration over trying to reason what alternative is both equitable and attractive... and is still racing.

Shouldn't we talk this out, even if it is a reprise of a old issue, at the Annual Meeting?

Jerry

On Dec 31, 2006, at 10:07 AM, Darell Provencher wrote:

Funny how this topic comes back up every couple of years. Just an FYI, a number of years ago I did some racing in Europe (when I was in my 40's), and there the "masters" level racing is most often called "Veterans." Veterans racing in most countries on the continent have a minimum age of 40 years. Some of my fastest times on the track were in my mid-forties. I like the OBRA standard, as it matches what most foreign racing organizations are doing. And we do have the option for race promoters ignore the default and create younger age groups if they so decide. Using age as a category criterion is a convenience for the promoter. Using ability and skill as a category will necessarily ignore age as a limitation (in most cases).
Darell

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Gordon Cumming
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 8:52 AM
To: gschreckchat@comcast.net
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Masters 35 Plus?

I won?t feel old at 40 or 50, my body will be different and will respond differently, but hopefully my mind will be sane. Hell some people celebrate 30 as getting up their, I could have cared less, and when I turn 40 in one year, 2 OBRA years, I could care less then too.
Your supposition regarding athletes winning past 35 does not distinguish between the rare few elite athletes at that level and the average person. Those individuals have been exceptional athletes their entire lives. The vast majority of people do not fit into the elite category.

From: gschreckchat@comcast.net [mailto:gschreckchat@comcast.net]
Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 10:16 PM
To: tioflaco@comcast.net; 'David Hart'; obra@list.obra.org
Cc: Gordon Cumming
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Masters 35 Plus?
Generally, most people feel it mkeans they are getting older. Most people do not note their 35th birthday, but traditionally do seem to think of their getting old when they hit 40.
Anyway, a Masters category should apply to those who are middle age or older, and 40 seems like a good arbitrary point for that. When I was in my 30's, I did not feel that was the case. Also, if you note, there are professional racers still winning major races past 35, so it would argue that it is a bit early to consider them beyond the point where there need to race in a category for older racers.
Also, as a final matter, in Masters, there is a large number of racers in their 50's. People, who are 35 to 39 for some reason do not want to race against 25 year olds, who are only 10 year's their junior. Why then would you think people in their 50's want to race against 35 year olds who are 15 to 20 years their junior. A 40 year cut off balances the two a bit better.
Enjoy your youth. I would love to be 35.
George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Gordon Cumming"
What is so special about 40?

From: gschreckchat@comcast.net
Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 5:40 PM
To: David Hart; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Masters 35 Plus?
This is essentially a problem that takes care of itself. Everyone get older and eventually can race masters. We changed the rules last year and it seemdd to work well. The masters fields were fairly large and will get larger as OBRA ages. There is little reason to accelerate it. What is so special about 35. Just race your category until you are 40. In running, you are not considered a Masters until you are 40, and no one seems to whine about it.
--
George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "David Hart"
Hmm, that MAY be worth trying (can't please everyone as proven by the length of this thread). I would rather race 35+ 2/3. This would leave the 4's to race w/5's(they are more 4's & 5's lately). I plan on being at the banquet, you just have to bring it up for discussion, get a vote and go from there OR just convince organizers to have this field. However this doesn't mirror other races like Hood or Elkhorn or Cascade & so forth in categories. I basically race the OBRA calendar with an Elkhorn or Hood thrown in there so here is what I think.
. . . snip
On 12/30/06, Gordon Cumming wrote:
Mike,

If that is the case, why not have a 35+ 2/3 category, it could even be 30-39
1/2/3 and then 40+.

Seems like the numbers are their.

Gordie

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto: obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Murray
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 7:08 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Masters 35 Plus?

There are often references to the mythic 18 yo bike racer. Frankly there
are not many of them. Most are slower category. From the end of this year
the age distribution of road members was:

<20 169
2 0to24 133
25 to29 264
30to34 398
35to39 466
40to44 371
45to49 266
50to54 148
55to59 74
60to64 34
65+ 24

Here are the mean ages by road category:

1 33
2 36
3 38
4 36
5 36

Overall the mean OBRA membership age is 37. 35+ is most of us.

Mike Murray
-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Edward Kendrick Sr
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 06:48 AM
To: ob ra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Masters 35 Plus?

Yes. It would be nice to have the 35+ category.

Most of the riders, who act their age, choose to ride cat 4 or 5. This is
awkward, when there are 18 yr olds competing with you.

Did you know that a big chunk of the Arctic shelf broke off today?

Anyway, Feliz Ano Nuevo.

----- Original Message ----
From: Dave Campbell
To: obra
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 1:08:39 AM
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Masters 35 Plus?

Just going to throw this totally self-interested bit out there...

VERY few races last yr had a Masters 35 plus, with most going 40 plus
Was this trend well-recieved by riders? I see that Cherry Pie (and my guess
is most of the others that follow) is going Masters 40 plus and the promoter
(who is well experienced!) assures me this is the way to go.

For ME at this point, the 35 plus races are FUN (although due to triathlon,
I personally only do a few and mainly for training) and I can actually race
as opposed to the Cat1/2 race which I just try to survive and I would assume
there are others that feel the same way...the question is ARE THERE ENOUGH
like minded 35-39s like me?

Anyone?

Thanks,
DC
Dave Campbell
adcampbell46@earthlink.net
EarthLink Revolves Around You.

Jerry Powell
USAC Level 1 Coach
1926 SW Madison St
Portland, OR 97205

503 222 7173
503 799 7823

jpowell@spiritone.com