Erik Long

Racing in the States is cleaner than in Europe. The main reason being that
American Cycling doesn't pay well enough to dope. Sure, you can run across
the Mexican border for cheap EPO, but the good drugs that are difficult to
test for are very expensive. And using these substances effectively and
safely requires the help of a doctor, which is mandatory personell on a UCI
Pro Tour team, but not a realistic commodity for the budget of a North
American "Pro" Team.

Furthermore, with the aid of a good medical professional, one can combine
several different performance enhancers with other means of enhancement -
such as Homologus Blood doping - and you have an extraordinarily very fast
human being.

A 15% difference in performance between two sets of professional athletes is
a drastic difference, Mike. This is not a minor enough difference to be
explained by training, culture, genetics or any combination of the three.

A clean rider, no matter how talented, just cannot be competitive in the Pro
Tour peloton as it is today.

----Original Message Follows----
From: "Mike Murray"
Reply-To: mike.murray@obra.org
To:
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Vino's reality:
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 10:59:26 -0700

To follow your logic:
- Euro-pro watt average is 15% higher than American pro
- Doping must be the cause.

Am I missing something there? Is there an implicate assumption that US
riders are not doping and European riders are? What would support that
assumption?

Proposing a 10% performance improvement from doping is difficult to justify.
Certainly there is nothing to suggest anything that large with steroids,
growth hormone, amphetamines, etc. EPO or blood doping can produce an
improvement but across the board 10% increase is too much. Possibly in a
competitor that started with a low end hematocrit and was increased to a
high end hematocrit but in competitors that have higher hematocrits already
there would be marginal benefit.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: Erik Long [mailto:elongride@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 13:46 PM
To: mike.murray@obra.org; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Vino's reality:

I don't know about that, Mike. Thanks to the popularization of wattage
meters, we now know that the average euro-pro puts out 15% higher wattage
than the average North Amercan Pro.

I've known quite a few American professionals who have bounced between here
and there. One recounted to me an occasion when he had super form, won a
couple NRC events, then went over to europe and was dropped every day, even
with race-winning fitness. The 10% gain that the dope can give you is a
huge difference. 10% is the time cut in some of these races. If it was a
minor difference, there wouldn't be so many athletes on the 'Puerto list.

----Original Message Follows----
From: "Mike Murray"
Reply-To: mike.murray@obra.org
To:
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Vino's reality:
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 12:40:51 -0700

Erik Long wrote:
"If he'd been "racing clean" all these years, riding in the environment of
the doped-up super-peloton, he'd have been a mediocre domestique, at best."

This statement considerably over estimates the benefits provided by doping
practices. Doped or not doped a good rider will be a good rider and a
mediocre rider will be a mediocre rider. The doped rider MAY be a bit
faster than he would have been not doped but the difference is not the same
as the difference between good and mediocre.

Mike Murray

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