Matthew Klahn
I don't think you really mean this. One of the biggest
responsibilities the gov't has, as a collective will of the people, is
to legislate (and enforce) safety: safety from bad products, safety
from outside invasion, safety from improper practices that enrich a
few at the expense of the majority, etc. Well, OK, OK, they're
_supposed_ to have those responsibilities, and you can argue that they
are good at it or not.
Perhaps what you meant was legislating personal responsibility?
Though, there are a number of instances of laws to "force" people to
act responsibly or face penalties; in fact, requiring car insurance is
but one example of this. So, while I understand your sentiment, your
statement doesn't jive with my very-out-of-date civics lessons.
I do agree with Mike, though, on the point that such legislation makes
cycling seem more unsafe than, say, crossing the street (where you can
also have right-of-way violations by high-speed vehicles cause tragic
accidents), when they are probably roughly equal in risk. At least in
a major metropolitan area like Portland.
Matthew
On Feb 26, 2008, at 7:33 PM, mtypinski@aol.com wrote:
> I hate legislating safety. I'm an avid motorcyclist as well as bike
> rider, and ALWAYS wear a full face on the moto and a good Gyro on
> the bike (the helmet; not the tasty sandwich). I've been in decent
> bash-ups on both, and was glad I was wearing it. Nonetheless, the
> decision was mine to make, not the governments. Having said that,
> I'm also in favor of insurance riders in the contract that require
> much higher premiums unless you ride with appropriate gear, and if
> you get into an accident without a lower payout. It should be your
> decision, but Robert has a great point.
>
> On the other hand, Darwin had some good points too. Bombing down
> Springville from Skyline without a helmet is sort of evolution/
> natural selection in action.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Murray
> To: 'OBRA List'
> Sent: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 7:24 pm
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Helmets will be mandatory in Vancouver, WA
>
> The cost of providing medical care to people injured in bicycle
> accidents that might have been mitigated by a helmet is truly a drop
> in the ocean. This is just not a significant portion of health care
> costs. Even if no one wore bike helmets there is no reason why
> health insurance costs should go up related to this. In fact, this
> is also true for motorcycle injuries. Seat belt use in cars does
> reach the level of being a non-trivial cost but interestingly health
> insurance and car insurance costs are not lower in states that
> require seat belt use; the savings just go to the insurance companies.
>
> The biggest problem with mandatory helmet laws is that it promotes
> the idea that riding a bike is dangerous. Frankly, in the grand
> scheme of things it is not all that more dangerous than many other
> activities that we do without considering risk. People get hurt
> doing lots of thing (thank goodness because that is what keeps me
> employed). This false sense of danger keeps people from riding
> bikes. As a society we would be far better off if we had more
> people riding bikes, helmeted or not.
> Mike Murray
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]
> On Behalf Of Robert Burney
> Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 16:57 PM
> To: 'Rick Johnson'; 'C M'
> Cc: 'OBRA List'
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Helmets will be mandatory in Vancouver, WA
>
> Rick,
> I would agree with you IF society did not pick up the tab for those
> who survive their own decisions. We all pay higher medical
> insurance costs for those who decide to go without health
> insurance. If the rider is not killed for lack of a helmet, all our
> health insurance rates go up for the extra medical care required for
> the individual. This is true whether or not that rider has his own
> health insurance.
> If he/she does not have that insurance, all of us who do will pay
> even more for our own insurance.
> If that rider is crippled, Social Security disability insurance will
> pay, which costs society even more.
>
> In short, I am all in favor of self determination so long as the
> individual is not impacting others by their own decision. That is
> rarely the case.
>
>
> Robert Burney, JD
> President
>
> RE Burney & Associates, Inc.
> 8285 SW Nimbus Ave., Suite 124
> Beaverton, OR 97008
>
> Brokerage of Life Insurance, Annuities,
> Long Term Care and Disability Insurance.
>
> Office: 503-608-7813
> Cell: 503-502-4289
> EFax: 503-210-1595
> Email: robert@reburney.com
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]
> On Behalf Of Rick Johnson
> Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 4:44 PM
> To: C M
> Cc: OBRA List
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Helmets will be mandatory in Vancouver, WA
>
> Please speak for yourself only. I'm in favor of letting the
> individual decide how valuable their brains are. If someone doesn't
> think their gray matter is worth protecting I say let nature take
> it's course.
>
> Rick
>
> C M wrote:
> I think it's safe to say that most, if not all, of us in OBRA land
> are strongly in favor of wearing helemts and requiring others to do
> the same. The question is how do we get the word out to the policy
> makers ?
> On 2/26/08, Mark J. Ginsberg wrote:
> Michael,
>
> I don't disagree, but folks who study these things have reached
> these conclusions.
>
> as for kids and helmets, in Oregon it is 16 and under. ors 814.488,
> for those under 11 the adult gets the ticket, for those over 11, the
> kid gets the ticket.
>
>
> Mark
>
> Michael Benno wrote:
> Mark, that is a good point if the cost of a helmet was significant.
> However I would argue that point as being a barrier to owning a
> helmet.
>
> New helmets are very affordable (under $40) and used helmets are
> essentially free. I did a quick scan of craigslist and found several
> helmets ranging in price from Free to $20 on the first page alone.
> At what price were you thinking helmets would no longer be a barrier?
>
> Case in point: I had 4 excess helmets in my basement. These are all
> top line race helmets (Giro, Bell, Lima, Lazer) with all with retail
> prices over $90. I tried to sell them in craigslist for $10 each. No
> bites! I posted them on craigslist for free, again no bites! I put
> them on my curb and was only able to get rid of one (I live on a
> bike route).
>
> Personally I think price is not a significant resitance to obtaining
> them. Let me remind you all that kids under 10 are required to have
> helmets for bikes, skateboards, scooters. So why not adults?
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Mark J. Ginsberg markjginsberg@yahoo.com
>
> while it is not my personal view, the resistance to requiring
> helmets, is that for those who can't afford much, adding an
> additional requirement makes biking that much harder, and there are
> studies that show that measurable amounts of people won't bike if
> they must wear a helmet.
>
> so while I wear my helmet religiously, for a person who is just
> getting started (who maybe needs a helmet the most), to force them
> to wear a helmet can mean they don't even start riding a bike.
>
> Mark
>
> Michael Benno wrote:
> Personally, I applaud this effort and wish PDX would step up, as a
> leader in the bicycle movement, and do the same. I'm not a safety
> natzi or anything, but I just don't see the need to not require
> helmets. I have three I'd be willing to donate to the cause.
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: "jon.ragsdale@comcast.net"
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 2:40:49 PM
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Helmets will be mandatory in Vancouver, WA
> There is a story on the front page of www.kgw.com reporting that
> Vancouver has enacted a rule that in 30 days all cyclists will be
> required to wear helmets. Full story: http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_022608_news_vancouver_helmet_law_bicycle.2edad9de.html
>
>
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>
> Mark J. Ginsberg
> Attorney At Law
> 1216 SE Belmont St.
> Portland, OR 97214
> (503) 542-3000
> Fax (503) 233-6874
> markjginsberg@yahoo.com
> www.bikesafetylaw.com
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>
> Mark J. Ginsberg
> Attorney At Law
> 1216 SE Belmont St.
> Portland, OR 97214
> (503) 542-3000
> Fax (503) 233-6874
> markjginsberg@yahoo.com
> www.bikesafetylaw.com
> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.
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