Mike Murray
The responsibility of government is NOT to legislate safety. The
responsibility of government is to protect the individual from being damaged
by the actions of others. In the absence of a government the bigger guy
gets to beat up the smaller guy. Governmental structures prevent this. It
is not the government's job to protect individuals from their own actions.
Mike Murray
-----Original Message-----
From: Matthew Klahn [mailto:mklahn@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 21:20 PM
To: mtypinski@aol.com
Cc: mike.murray@obra.org; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Helmets will be mandatory in Vancouver, WA
I don't think you really mean this. One of the biggest
responsibilities the gov't has, as a collective will of the people, is
to legislate (and enforce) safety: safety from bad products, safety
from outside invasion, safety from improper practices that enrich a
few at the expense of the majority, etc. Well, OK, OK, they're
_supposed_ to have those responsibilities, and you can argue that they
are good at it or not.
Perhaps what you meant was legislating personal responsibility?
Though, there are a number of instances of laws to "force" people to
act responsibly or face penalties; in fact, requiring car insurance is
but one example of this. So, while I understand your sentiment, your
statement doesn't jive with my very-out-of-date civics lessons.
I do agree with Mike, though, on the point that such legislation makes
cycling seem more unsafe than, say, crossing the street (where you can
also have right-of-way violations by high-speed vehicles cause tragic
accidents), when they are probably roughly equal in risk. At least in
a major metropolitan area like Portland.
Matthew
On Feb 26, 2008, at 7:33 PM, mtypinski@aol.com wrote:
> I hate legislating safety. I'm an avid motorcyclist as well as bike
> rider, and ALWAYS wear a full face on the moto and a good Gyro on
> the bike (the helmet; not the tasty sandwich). I've been in decent
> bash-ups on both, and was glad I was wearing it. Nonetheless, the
> decision was mine to make, not the governments. Having said that,
> I'm also in favor of insurance riders in the contract that require
> much higher premiums unless you ride with appropriate gear, and if
> you get into an accident without a lower payout. It should be your
> decision, but Robert has a great point.
>
> On the other hand, Darwin had some good points too. Bombing down
> Springville from Skyline without a helmet is sort of evolution/
> natural selection in action.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Murray
> To: 'OBRA List'
> Sent: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 7:24 pm
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Helmets will be mandatory in Vancouver, WA
>
> The cost of providing medical care to people injured in bicycle
> accidents that might have been mitigated by a helmet is truly a drop
> in the ocean. This is just not a significant portion of health care
> costs. Even if no one wore bike helmets there is no reason why
> health insurance costs should go up related to this. In fact, this
> is also true for motorcycle injuries. Seat belt use in cars does
> reach the level of being a non-trivial cost but interestingly health
> insurance and car insurance costs are not lower in states that
> require seat belt use; the savings just go to the insurance companies.
>
> The biggest problem with mandatory helmet laws is that it promotes
> the idea that riding a bike is dangerous. Frankly, in the grand
> scheme of things it is not all that more dangerous than many other
> activities that we do without considering risk. People get hurt
> doing lots of thing (thank goodness because that is what keeps me
> employed). This false sense of danger keeps people from riding
> bikes. As a society we would be far better off if we had more
> people riding bikes, helmeted or not.
> Mike Murray
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]
> On Behalf Of Robert Burney
> Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 16:57 PM
> To: 'Rick Johnson'; 'C M'
> Cc: 'OBRA List'
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Helmets will be mandatory in Vancouver, WA
>
> Rick,
> I would agree with you IF society did not pick up the tab for those
> who survive their own decisions. We all pay higher medical
> insurance costs for those who decide to go without health
> insurance. If the rider is not killed for lack of a helmet, all our
> health insurance rates go up for the extra medical care required for
> the individual. This is true whether or not that rider has his own
> health insurance.
> If he/she does not have that insurance, all of us who do will pay
> even more for our own insurance.
> If that rider is crippled, Social Security disability insurance will
> pay, which costs society even more.
>
> In short, I am all in favor of self determination so long as the
> individual is not impacting others by their own decision. That is
> rarely the case.
>
>
> Robert Burney, JD
> President
>
> RE Burney & Associates, Inc.
> 8285 SW Nimbus Ave., Suite 124
> Beaverton, OR 97008
>
> Brokerage of Life Insurance, Annuities,
> Long Term Care and Disability Insurance.
>
> Office: 503-608-7813
> Cell: 503-502-4289
> EFax: 503-210-1595
> Email: robert@reburney.com
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]
> On Behalf Of Rick Johnson
> Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 4:44 PM
> To: C M
> Cc: OBRA List
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Helmets will be mandatory in Vancouver, WA
>
> Please speak for yourself only. I'm in favor of letting the
> individual decide how valuable their brains are. If someone doesn't
> think their gray matter is worth protecting I say let nature take
> it's course.
>
> Rick
>
> C M wrote:
> I think it's safe to say that most, if not all, of us in OBRA land
> are strongly in favor of wearing helemts and requiring others to do
> the same. The question is how do we get the word out to the policy
> makers ?
> On 2/26/08, Mark J. Ginsberg wrote:
> Michael,
>
> I don't disagree, but folks who study these things have reached
> these conclusions.
>
> as for kids and helmets, in Oregon it is 16 and under. ors 814.488,
> for those under 11 the adult gets the ticket, for those over 11, the
> kid gets the ticket.
>
>
> Mark
>
> Michael Benno wrote:
> Mark, that is a good point if the cost of a helmet was significant.
> However I would argue that point as being a barrier to owning a
> helmet.
>
> New helmets are very affordable (under $40) and used helmets are
> essentially free. I did a quick scan of craigslist and found several
> helmets ranging in price from Free to $20 on the first page alone.
> At what price were you thinking helmets would no longer be a barrier?
>
> Case in point: I had 4 excess helmets in my basement. These are all
> top line race helmets (Giro, Bell, Lima, Lazer) with all with retail
> prices over $90. I tried to sell them in craigslist for $10 each. No
> bites! I posted them on craigslist for free, again no bites! I put
> them on my curb and was only able to get rid of one (I live on a
> bike route).
>
> Personally I think price is not a significant resitance to obtaining
> them. Let me remind you all that kids under 10 are required to have
> helmets for bikes, skateboards, scooters. So why not adults?
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Mark J. Ginsberg markjginsberg@yahoo.com
>
> while it is not my personal view, the resistance to requiring
> helmets, is that for those who can't afford much, adding an
> additional requirement makes biking that much harder, and there are
> studies that show that measurable amounts of people won't bike if
> they must wear a helmet.
>
> so while I wear my helmet religiously, for a person who is just
> getting started (who maybe needs a helmet the most), to force them
> to wear a helmet can mean they don't even start riding a bike.
>
> Mark
>
> Michael Benno wrote:
> Personally, I applaud this effort and wish PDX would step up, as a
> leader in the bicycle movement, and do the same. I'm not a safety
> natzi or anything, but I just don't see the need to not require
> helmets. I have three I'd be willing to donate to the cause.
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: "jon.ragsdale@comcast.net"
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 2:40:49 PM
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Helmets will be mandatory in Vancouver, WA
> There is a story on the front page of www.kgw.com reporting that
> Vancouver has enacted a rule that in 30 days all cyclists will be
> required to wear helmets. Full story:
http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_022608_news_vancouver_helmet_law_b
icycle.2edad9de.html
>
>
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>
> Mark J. Ginsberg
> Attorney At Law
> 1216 SE Belmont St.
> Portland, OR 97214
> (503) 542-3000
> Fax (503) 233-6874
> markjginsberg@yahoo.com
> www.bikesafetylaw.com
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>
> Mark J. Ginsberg
> Attorney At Law
> 1216 SE Belmont St.
> Portland, OR 97214
> (503) 542-3000
> Fax (503) 233-6874
> markjginsberg@yahoo.com
> www.bikesafetylaw.com
> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.
> Try it now.
>
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