Erik Long
Right ON, Mike!
> From: mike.murray@obra.org
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 13:09:37 -0800
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Helmets will be mandatory in Vancouver, WA
>
> The responsibility of government is NOT to legislate safety. The
> responsibility of government is to protect the individual from being damaged
> by the actions of others. In the absence of a government the bigger guy
> gets to beat up the smaller guy. Governmental structures prevent this. It
> is not the government's job to protect individuals from their own actions.
>
> Mike Murray
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matthew Klahn [mailto:mklahn@gmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 21:20 PM
> To: mtypinski@aol.com
> Cc: mike.murray@obra.org; obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Helmets will be mandatory in Vancouver, WA
>
>
> I don't think you really mean this. One of the biggest
> responsibilities the gov't has, as a collective will of the people, is
> to legislate (and enforce) safety: safety from bad products, safety
> from outside invasion, safety from improper practices that enrich a
> few at the expense of the majority, etc. Well, OK, OK, they're
> _supposed_ to have those responsibilities, and you can argue that they
> are good at it or not.
>
> Perhaps what you meant was legislating personal responsibility?
> Though, there are a number of instances of laws to "force" people to
> act responsibly or face penalties; in fact, requiring car insurance is
> but one example of this. So, while I understand your sentiment, your
> statement doesn't jive with my very-out-of-date civics lessons.
>
> I do agree with Mike, though, on the point that such legislation makes
> cycling seem more unsafe than, say, crossing the street (where you can
> also have right-of-way violations by high-speed vehicles cause tragic
> accidents), when they are probably roughly equal in risk. At least in
> a major metropolitan area like Portland.
>
> Matthew
>
>
>
> On Feb 26, 2008, at 7:33 PM, mtypinski@aol.com wrote:
>
> > I hate legislating safety. I'm an avid motorcyclist as well as bike
> > rider, and ALWAYS wear a full face on the moto and a good Gyro on
> > the bike (the helmet; not the tasty sandwich). I've been in decent
> > bash-ups on both, and was glad I was wearing it. Nonetheless, the
> > decision was mine to make, not the governments. Having said that,
> > I'm also in favor of insurance riders in the contract that require
> > much higher premiums unless you ride with appropriate gear, and if
> > you get into an accident without a lower payout. It should be your
> > decision, but Robert has a great point.
> >
> > On the other hand, Darwin had some good points too. Bombing down
> > Springville from Skyline without a helmet is sort of evolution/
> > natural selection in action.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Mike Murray
> > To: 'OBRA List'
> > Sent: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 7:24 pm
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Helmets will be mandatory in Vancouver, WA
> >
> > The cost of providing medical care to people injured in bicycle
> > accidents that might have been mitigated by a helmet is truly a drop
> > in the ocean. This is just not a significant portion of health care
> > costs. Even if no one wore bike helmets there is no reason why
> > health insurance costs should go up related to this. In fact, this
> > is also true for motorcycle injuries. Seat belt use in cars does
> > reach the level of being a non-trivial cost but interestingly health
> > insurance and car insurance costs are not lower in states that
> > require seat belt use; the savings just go to the insurance companies.
> >
> > The biggest problem with mandatory helmet laws is that it promotes
> > the idea that riding a bike is dangerous. Frankly, in the grand
> > scheme of things it is not all that more dangerous than many other
> > activities that we do without considering risk. People get hurt
> > doing lots of thing (thank goodness because that is what keeps me
> > employed). This false sense of danger keeps people from riding
> > bikes. As a society we would be far better off if we had more
> > people riding bikes, helmeted or not.
> > Mike Murray
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]
> > On Behalf Of Robert Burney
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 16:57 PM
> > To: 'Rick Johnson'; 'C M'
> > Cc: 'OBRA List'
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Helmets will be mandatory in Vancouver, WA
> >
> > Rick,
> > I would agree with you IF society did not pick up the tab for those
> > who survive their own decisions. We all pay higher medical
> > insurance costs for those who decide to go without health
> > insurance. If the rider is not killed for lack of a helmet, all our
> > health insurance rates go up for the extra medical care required for
> > the individual. This is true whether or not that rider has his own
> > health insurance.
> > If he/she does not have that insurance, all of us who do will pay
> > even more for our own insurance.
> > If that rider is crippled, Social Security disability insurance will
> > pay, which costs society even more.
> >
> > In short, I am all in favor of self determination so long as the
> > individual is not impacting others by their own decision. That is
> > rarely the case.
> >
> >
> > Robert Burney, JD
> > President
> >
> > RE Burney & Associates, Inc.
> > 8285 SW Nimbus Ave., Suite 124
> > Beaverton, OR 97008
> >
> > Brokerage of Life Insurance, Annuities,
> > Long Term Care and Disability Insurance.
> >
> > Office: 503-608-7813
> > Cell: 503-502-4289
> > EFax: 503-210-1595
> > Email: robert@reburney.com
> > From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]
> > On Behalf Of Rick Johnson
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 4:44 PM
> > To: C M
> > Cc: OBRA List
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Helmets will be mandatory in Vancouver, WA
> >
> > Please speak for yourself only. I'm in favor of letting the
> > individual decide how valuable their brains are. If someone doesn't
> > think their gray matter is worth protecting I say let nature take
> > it's course.
> >
> > Rick
> >
> > C M wrote:
> > I think it's safe to say that most, if not all, of us in OBRA land
> > are strongly in favor of wearing helemts and requiring others to do
> > the same. The question is how do we get the word out to the policy
> > makers ?
> > On 2/26/08, Mark J. Ginsberg wrote:
> > Michael,
> >
> > I don't disagree, but folks who study these things have reached
> > these conclusions.
> >
> > as for kids and helmets, in Oregon it is 16 and under. ors 814.488,
> > for those under 11 the adult gets the ticket, for those over 11, the
> > kid gets the ticket.
> >
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > Michael Benno wrote:
> > Mark, that is a good point if the cost of a helmet was significant.
> > However I would argue that point as being a barrier to owning a
> > helmet.
> >
> > New helmets are very affordable (under $40) and used helmets are
> > essentially free. I did a quick scan of craigslist and found several
> > helmets ranging in price from Free to $20 on the first page alone.
> > At what price were you thinking helmets would no longer be a barrier?
> >
> > Case in point: I had 4 excess helmets in my basement. These are all
> > top line race helmets (Giro, Bell, Lima, Lazer) with all with retail
> > prices over $90. I tried to sell them in craigslist for $10 each. No
> > bites! I posted them on craigslist for free, again no bites! I put
> > them on my curb and was only able to get rid of one (I live on a
> > bike route).
> >
> > Personally I think price is not a significant resitance to obtaining
> > them. Let me remind you all that kids under 10 are required to have
> > helmets for bikes, skateboards, scooters. So why not adults?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: Mark J. Ginsberg markjginsberg@yahoo.com
> >
> > while it is not my personal view, the resistance to requiring
> > helmets, is that for those who can't afford much, adding an
> > additional requirement makes biking that much harder, and there are
> > studies that show that measurable amounts of people won't bike if
> > they must wear a helmet.
> >
> > so while I wear my helmet religiously, for a person who is just
> > getting started (who maybe needs a helmet the most), to force them
> > to wear a helmet can mean they don't even start riding a bike.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > Michael Benno wrote:
> > Personally, I applaud this effort and wish PDX would step up, as a
> > leader in the bicycle movement, and do the same. I'm not a safety
> > natzi or anything, but I just don't see the need to not require
> > helmets. I have three I'd be willing to donate to the cause.
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: "jon.ragsdale@comcast.net"
> > To: obra@list.obra.org
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 2:40:49 PM
> > Subject: [OBRA Chat] Helmets will be mandatory in Vancouver, WA
> > There is a story on the front page of www.kgw.com reporting that
> > Vancouver has enacted a rule that in 30 days all cyclists will be
> > required to wear helmets. Full story:
> http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_022608_news_vancouver_helmet_law_b
> icycle.2edad9de.html
> >
> >
> > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your
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> >
> >
> >
> > Mark J. Ginsberg
> > Attorney At Law
> > 1216 SE Belmont St.
> > Portland, OR 97214
> > (503) 542-3000
> > Fax (503) 233-6874
> > markjginsberg@yahoo.com
> > www.bikesafetylaw.com
> > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.
> > Try it now.
> >
> >
> > -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
> >
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> >
> >
> >
> > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> > Mark J. Ginsberg
> > Attorney At Law
> > 1216 SE Belmont St.
> > Portland, OR 97214
> > (503) 542-3000
> > Fax (503) 233-6874
> > markjginsberg@yahoo.com
> > www.bikesafetylaw.com
> > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.
> > Try it now.
> >
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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