john
Not wearing a helmet is actually less expensive for "society". Burial is relatively cheap whereas if you have a helmet on more likely to have long term brain injury.. plus there is a rebate if you are an organ donor. And along those lines someone here at work just told me that I could probably even get some to pay me to ride... morbid people...
Seriously, my motorcycle insurance is really inexpensive, and i've been told (this means it might not be true), it's because:
1. less likely to be medical bills because more likely you will be dead.
2. less or little damage to equipment.
If Vancouver or anyplace USA were really serious about safety they would increase education.
----- Original Message ----
From: Duncan Hay
To: David Hart
Cc: obra
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 9:12:10 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Helmets will be mandatory in Vancouver, WA
I don't understand how this is even open for debate. You bring up the issue that helmets should be an option for those of us over the age of 18. Let's face it, a 19 year old is no more sensible than an 18 year old, and he is equally, if not more likely to get hit by a car. I am completely for personal choices, but unfortunately, helmets aren't simply about one's personal safety. If someone is hit by a car and is injured without paying a helmet, and is without health insurance, who pays for it? The taxpayers. Now, those same taxpayers theoretically are responsible for passing laws, and why would we ever want to have to pay for others "personal choices." So I say, screw personal rights and let's start thinking about safety, it's your personal responsibility to wear a helmet, so you aren't mopping up your brains, and so someone else isn't paying for the mop.
2008/2/26 David Hart :
post #24, how many more?
I would say the law is good for those under 18. If you chose not to wear a helmet when you are an adult, that's your personal choice. Being older and maybe a little wiser and maybe being an auto claims adjuster, I think the same for seatbelts. BUT more injuries in autos makes your rates go up. So to be honest, I take my lid off when I am on a bike trail on a hot day. It's just nice to have the wind over my near-balded head. Now when I am on the open road, you bet I got my lid on.
For a fun note, I crashed my bmx bike when I was 15 on good ol asphalt. Wearing shorts, no shirt, no helmet and bombing down a hill when I went a$$ over tea kettle. I had one scratch on my head but broke my arm in 6 places and had road rash from my shin to my hip.
"On the other hand, Darwin had some good points too. Bombing down Springville from Skyline without a helmet is sort of evolution/natural selection in action"
good point too, I concur
2008/2/26 :
I hate legislating safety. I'm an avid motorcyclist as well as bike rider, and ALWAYS wear a full face on the moto and a good Gyro on the bike (the helmet; not the tasty sandwich). I've been in decent bash-ups on both, and was glad I was wearing it. Nonetheless, the decision was mine to make, not the governments. Having said that, I'm also in favor of insurance riders in the contract that require much higher premiums unless you ride with appropriate gear, and if you get into an accident without a lower payout. It should be your decision, but Robert has a great point.
On the other hand, Darwin had some good points too. Bombing down Springville from Skyline without a helmet is sort of evolution/natural selection in action.
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Murray
To: 'OBRA List'
Sent: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 7:24 pm
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Helmets will be mandatory in Vancouver, WA
The cost of providing medical care to people injured in bicycle accidents that might have been mitigated by a helmet is truly a drop in the ocean. This is just not a significant portion of health care costs. Even if no one wore bike helmets there is no reason why health insurance costs should go up related to this. In fact, this is also true for motorcycle injuries. Seat belt use in cars does reach the level of being a non-trivial cost but interestingly health insurance and car insurance costs are not lower in states that require seat belt use; the savings just go to the insurance companies.
The biggest problem with mandatory helmet laws is that it promotes the idea that riding a bike is dangerous. Frankly, in the grand scheme of things it is not all that more dangerous than many other activities that we do without considering risk. People get hurt doing lots of thing (thank goodness because that is what keeps me employed). This false sense of danger keeps people from riding bikes. As a society we would be far better off if we had more people riding bikes, helmeted or not.
Mike Murray
-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Robert Burney
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 16:57 PM
To: 'Rick Johnson'; 'C M'
Cc: 'OBRA List'
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Helmets will be mandatory in Vancouver, WA
Rick,
I would agree with you IF society did not pick up the tab for those who survive their own decisions. We all pay higher medical insurance costs for those who decide to go without health insurance. If the rider is not killed for lack of a helmet, all our health insurance rates go up for the extra medical care required for the individual. This is true whether or not that rider has his own health insurance.
If he/she does not have that insurance, all of us who do will pay even more for our own insurance.
If that rider is crippled, Social Security disability insurance will pay, which costs society even more.
In short, I am all in favor of self determination so long as the individual is not impacting others by their own decision. That is rarely the case.
Robert Burney, JD
President
RE Burney & Associates, Inc.
8285 SW Nimbus Ave., Suite 124
Beaverton, OR 97008
Brokerage of Life Insurance, Annuities,
Long Term Care and Disability Insurance.
Office: 503-608-7813
Cell: 503-502-4289
EFax: 503-210-1595
Email: robert@reburney.com
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Rick Johnson
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 4:44 PM
To: C M
Cc: OBRA List
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Helmets will be mandatory in Vancouver, WA
Please speak for yourself only. I'm in favor of letting the individual decide how valuable their brains are. If someone doesn't think their gray matter is worth protecting I say let nature take it's course.
Rick
C M wrote:
I think it's safe to say that most, if not all, of us in OBRA land are strongly in favor of wearing helemts and requiring others to do the same. The question is how do we get the word out to the policy makers ?
On 2/26/08, Mark J. Ginsberg wrote:
Michael,
I don't disagree, but folks who study these things have reached these conclusions.
as for kids and helmets, in Oregon it is 16 and under. ors 814.488, for those under 11 the adult gets the ticket, for those over 11, the kid gets the ticket.
Mark
Michael Benno wrote:
Mark, that is a good point if the cost of a helmet was significant. However I would argue that point as being a barrier to owning a helmet.
New helmets are very affordable (under $40) and used helmets are essentially free. I did a quick scan of craigslist and found several helmets ranging in price from Free to $20 on the first page alone. At what price were you thinking helmets would no longer be a barrier?
Case in point: I had 4 excess helmets in my basement. These are all top line race helmets (Giro, Bell, Lima, Lazer) with all with retail prices over $90. I tried to sell them in craigslist for $10 each. No bites! I posted them on craigslist for free, again no bites! I put them on my curb and was only able to get rid of one (I live on a bike route).
Personally I think price is not a significant resitance to obtaining them. Let me remind you all that kids under 10 are required to have helmets for bikes, skateboards, scooters. So why not adults?
----- Original Message ----
From: Mark J. Ginsberg markjginsberg@yahoo.com
while it is not my personal view, the resistance to requiring helmets, is that for those who can't afford much, adding an additional requirement makes biking that much harder, and there are studies that show that measurable amounts of people won't bike if they must wear a helmet.
so while I wear my helmet religiously, for a person who is just getting started (who maybe needs a helmet the most), to force them to wear a helmet can mean they don't even start riding a bike.
Mark
Michael Benno wrote:
Personally, I applaud this effort and wish PDX would step up, as a leader in the bicycle movement, and do the same. I'm not a safety natzi or anything, but I just don't see the need to not require helmets. I have three I'd be willing to donate to the cause.
----- Original Message ----
From: "jon.ragsdale@comcast.net"
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 2:40:49 PM
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Helmets will be mandatory in Vancouver, WA
There is a story on the front page of www.kgw.com reporting that Vancouver has enacted a rule that in 30 days all cyclists will be required to wear helmets. Full story: http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_022608_news_vancouver_helmet_law_bicycle.2edad9de.html
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