Steve Brown

Just because you think your road or mountain pedals are secure
because they have never accidently release, the track is very
different. One can never be too cautious with regard to being secure
in your pedals. Having two brakes and a free wheel is very
different. Having no where to go or other riders present is very
different. Riding a bigger fixed gear is very different. Mike's
advice is very clear and much easier to understand than when he is
asking if you have a ride home or want them bring an ambulance.

Steve Brown
On Apr 13, 2008, at 8:26 PM, john wrote:

> 1., 2. Well of course I agree especially about the NEVER
> accidentally release! should be every racer's worst nightmare.
> But thats what i was saying... the two-bar type pedals, [ATAC,
> eggbeaters, designed for mud clearing, new quartz?, yes in
> contrast to how they appear, especially the eggbeater,**] in my
> experience have Never accidentally released (even under erratic
> sprint testing, cause i was not about to race on them until i knew
> how secure they were for me. i am more worried about road race
> sprints then the track.). I found they were way more secure than
> Road Look, SPD-SL, and SPDs(by far).. the secret is the large
> rotation before release.. never tried speedplay, but thats why
> they are secure too.
>
> I recommend doing sprint testing (by yourself on quiet street of
> course...), setup might different / rotation release different.
>
>
> 3, 4. Stiff soles are nice, but you push with the ball of your
> foot... I was just suggesting how one could go about it if you
> can't use or won't be using cycling shoes. there really isn't a
> safety issue that i can think of ... until you can find or pickup
> some proper cycling shoes... But yes, OK, if you can afford a
> helmet and some shorts, some second hand or used cycling shoes
> shouldn't be a stretch.
>
> ** full disclosure, i did have an eggbeater spring break on me in
> crit... tried ATACs and they are much higher quality pedal, and
> super secure. but the whole shoe to foot interface for pushing
> down is simply your shoes outer sole pressing on the back of the
> pedal, and some on the two bars.. so I don't know if i like them
> because of this, indentations are formed into your shoe..
>
> "have never seen an injury directly because of a failure of the
> pedal to release in a fall."
> I think if both pedals release, or if Both pedals do NOT release,
> you are OK. My tibia (and fibula) broke when left released, which
> allowed my body to rotate, and the right did not release. But also
> a Slow speed fall, so i didn't flip and have the bike up in the
> air, rather the wheels were firmly planted (due to my weight
> pushing down too) and this resisted the torque.
>
>
>
> Mike Murray wrote:
> I'd have to disagree with a couple of John's points:
>
> 1) For racing at the track you want a shoe and pedal combination
> that NEVER comes unclipped accidentally. I have seen many
> accidents caused by inadvertent detachment of the shoe from the
> pedal (even with clips and straps). I have never seen an injury
> directly because of a failure of the pedal to release in a fall.
> Some riders use pedals that have an SPD or other clip in mechanism
> AND straps on top of that. Some people have actually bolted the
> shoes to the pedals, although this is really only practical for top
> level timed events and sprints.
>
> 2) Mountain bike pedals are designed to release if a foot needs to
> be dabbed. They should be avoided at the track.
>
> 3) A shoe with no cleat used in a toe clips and straps pedal is OK
> for training classes but should not be used for racing. There is
> no rule against it but I think it should be avoided.
>
> 4) Although mass start track racing is more about spin and less
> about strength a softer flex shoe is inadequate. Track specific
> shoes tend to be stiffer than road shoes.
>
>
> Mike Murray
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-
> bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of john
> Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 14:29 PM
> To: My Stretchy Pants; 'OBRA list'
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
>
> Robert,
>
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_cl.html
> A cleat can be for Toe-and-Clip pedals or for Clipless pedals.
>
> Match sprinters use toe and clip usually double straps. Since
> match sprinters are usually pretty strong, i don't think roadies
> debate clip versus clipless with them.
>
> However for mass start omnium events, clip-less pedals are fine,
> and probably preferred since they release without a struggle or
> without having to reach down and loosen the strap. Probably a
> majority of track racers that race omnium events including the pros
> use the same Clipless pedals and thus same shoes as on their road
> bike.
>
> If you concerned or if you are accidentally pulling out with
> clipless pedals then they aren't adjusted correctly or you need
> pedals that offer more free rotation before release. By far the
> most secure pedals i have ever used were TIME mtb pedals, or
> Eggbeaters (the "two bar" type pedals, LOOK too now..), large
> float, they unclip easy but over at quite a large angle so never
> accidentally released. . My issue with them though is undefined
> and small pedal to shoe interface.
>
> If you are going to use Toe-and-Clip pedals with a slotted cleat,
> since there is no float or rotation, You must get the cleats
> aligned properly, preferably professionally or you will most likely
> hurt your knees. But even then, In the old days the shoes were
> fairly sloppy and so probably saved knees. if i recall correctly,
> As cycling shoe's heel cups stiffened, knee injuries increased.
> Depends on what sort of rotation you foot likes to do through a
> rotation. I had no issues when i first started on toe and clip
> pedals and a cleated slot shoe. But if i tried to go back now, i
> for sure would have issues...
>
> If you are going to use tennis / running shoes with Toe and Clip
> Pedals, it is rare but there is nothing wrong with this. Mass
> start Track racing is more about high spin speeds and thus low
> forces, so high shoe stiffness is not as critical as in other
> types of bicycle racing.
>
> 1. You want a clean no frills shoe with minimal tread (or remove
> with grinding wheel Wire Brush..) Something that cleanly and
> easily goes into the clip pedal. Stiff thin outer sole if you can
> get it, or you could maybe even find a stiff insole.. Err or you
> can do like did once with a fibrous insole... work in some
> fiberglass epoxy... thin and fairly stiff. .
>
> 2. And Pedals (if using a running shoe), you want probably almost a
> platform pedal that takes strap and clip. You want surface area,
> not a thin plate pedal as for a slotted cleat. You want to push
> with the ball of your foot and you want a nice flat surface to do
> this on..
>
> Keep in mind with Clip and Strap pedals, they might stick out a
> little further and you thus you have to be a little more mindful of
> clipping the Alpenrose banking at slow speeds. Also tuck in
> laces. Also since the races are short , the pain is short if for
> example the strap is digging into your foot.
>
> Check out Next Adventure and City Bikes, the latter usually has a
> nice collection of used shoes and pedals for cheap. For sure
> there are still purposely built toe and clip shoes for match
> sprinters. bike central ..
> Probably the most cost effective clipless pedals are the three
> hole Look Style. Not that i like them. Just make sure you replace
> the cleat when worn. I use to use shimano SPD pedals a lot (cause
> i like walkable shoes for commuting) But seemed to have issue with
> accidental release here and there.. and then once they didn't
> release until after my leg snapped. So not a fan anymore of Steel
> on Steel pedal to cleat.
>
>
>
> My Stretchy Pants wrote:
> I've heard that at the track, clips are preferred over cleats, and
> have
> a set of clips for my track bike. But what sort of shoes do I stick in
> the clips? Tennis shoes? Standard cycling shoes without the cleats? I
> tried using chuck taylors in the clips on a hill and thought for a few
> weeks after that I may have broken my foot. Clearly, sneakers were the
> wrong choice. Is the clip v. clipless question an important religious
> matter, regularly debated, like optimum spoke count? Is there a
> purpose
> built shoe experienced track racers use with clips?
>
> Robert Synak
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>
> john m schmidt, pe
> portland oregon
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>
> john m schmidt, pe
> portland oregon
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