Craig W. LaShot
> From: obra-request@list.obra.org
> Subject: OBRA Digest, Vol 32, Issue 24
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 12:00:01 -0700
>
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>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Wheels for sale (Thom Kneeland)
> 2. A new look at the TT (Brian)
> 3. Cyclocross (T. Kenji Sugahara)
> 4. Re: A new look at the TT (Joe Cipale)
> 5. Results Fast Twitch Friday 8.15.08 (Bike Central)
> 6. FS: Cervelo P3 Carbon Time Trail Bike 56cm $2700 OBO
> (Damarcus Maximus)
> 7. FS:New Mavic Ksyrium Tubular $500, Park PRS-3 Bike stand $225
> (Damarcus Maximus)
> 8. Re: A new look at the TT (Erik)
> 9. Re: FS: Cervelo P3 Carbon Time Trail Bike 56cm $2700 OBO
> (Damarcus Maximus)
> 10. Re: A new look at the TT (david baker)
> 11. Time Trial Divisions (Rob Hughes)
> 12. Re: TT, categories, and beer for lunch (Brian)
> 13. 2008 campagnolo Record hubs (Jason A. Skelton)
> 14. Tuesday Track Schedule (Steve @TruesdaleImports.com)
> 15. ALERT: STOLEN CARBON LEOPOLD BEING HELD (ac)
> 16. ALERT: Stolen Carbon Leopard being held (arlo)
> 17. Re: Time Trial Divisions (gschreckchat@comcast.net)
> 18. Re: TT, categories, and beer for lunch (Joe Cipale)
> 19. Re: TT, categories, and beer for lunch (Chris Alling)
> 20. Re: TT, categories, and beer for lunch (Martin Baker)
> 21. Re: TT, categories, and beer for lunch (Thomas Hoffman)
> 22. Tuesday night masters track racing (Jeff Tedder & Shari)
> 23. Wheels for sale (Thom Kneeland)
> 24. Re: **** X-spasm **** RE: TT, categories, and beer for lunch
> (Joe Cipale)
> 25. of time trials and categories (uma)
> 26. Photos (EDWARD NORTON)
> 27. Cyclist Injured in Hit on Run Last Thursday August 14th
> (Pete Conklin)
> 28. Results Mon PIR (david hart)
> 29. WTB: kids "stoker" kit & Crank Shortners (Brian ecker)
> 30. Re: TT Categories discussion... (Quenton)
> 31. WTB Single Speed Cross Bike Large or XL (or Recommendations
> for Same) (NW Cyclist)
> 32. *important* Results MON PIR (david hart)
> 33. Re: Entry Fees for Swan Island Crit (Geri Bossen)
> 34. Re: Entry Fees for Swan Island Crit (Joel Morrissette)
> 35. Cycling Massage in Salem area (Evan Plews)
> 36. Yakima Gift Certificate (Godfrey,David)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 12:26:53 -0700
> From: Thom Kneeland
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Wheels for sale
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Message-ID: <48a9ccfd99f8e_1c315a0d8d843f04294b@lizard.tmail>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Hey folks. I need to make room in the garage. I have three sets of carbon wheels I'm selling. One set of all carbon clinchers and two carbon tubulars.
>
> The clinchers-
> 1.Leo Elements 38mm all carbon clincher. These were made for a Euro company that canceled their order and they wound up in the US. They have the same rim as a Williams carbon clincher. It's 38mm deep and laced up to American Classic designed hubs through bladed spokes. The wheels weigh in at 1500grams with skewers and rim tape. I have about 20 rides on them and they are straight and true. They come with wheel bags, Conti GP3000 tires mounted, skewers, and carbon specific pads and holders. $600 and no shipping costs.
>
> The tubbies-
> 1. Pro-Lite Gavia 50T. Full carbon 50mm deep tubulars. Pro-Lite makes wheels for Reynolds, FSA, Ritchey and is their house brand. These are stiff and nice riding wheels with only about 5 crits raced on these and never flatted or crashed. They come with wheel bags, skewers, and carbon specific brake pads. $650 and no shipping costs.
>
> 2. Planet X 50mm ProCarbon Custom- 50mm deep carbon rims laced via Sapim spokes to American Classic hubs. These were handbuilt LA for Planet X. They come with wheelbags and carbon brakes pads. Never been glued up or ridden. $600 and no shipping costs.
>
> All the wheels are Shimano/Sram compatible.
> $1500 takes all three pair.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 12:37:37 -0700
> From: Brian
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] A new look at the TT
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Message-ID: <48a9cf8114588_51aa15afc18b3edc4c0@lizard.tmail>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
>
>
> I think Mr. Hughes made a really good point about the specialization of TTs, and in questioning how they fit in with road racing. It seems that they really don't fit in at all. Time trialing has really evolved into its own discipline, and it's time for the more progressive racing organizations (i.e. not the UCI) to realize and accommodate this fact. Separate TTs from road racing and get rid of categories.
>
>
> With advances in equipment in the last decade, there's really no point in showing up to a TT without the proper equipment. Things have become so specialized, and the riding position so altered from what is used on a road bike, that altogether different muscles now must be developed for time trialing. This is especially hard on newer racers who haven't been around long enough to buy a dedicated TT rig, disc wheels, and darth vader helmet. The point is that it is no longer a question of taking the rider out of the peloton and seeing what he can do on his own. It is now a question of who has focused more energy on specialization.
>
> I think this is especially relevant to what we count as stage racing. While we are including TTs, we might as well throw in some track racing, too. And how about a cyclocross leg? And what's with criteriums? What ever happened to the concept of going from point A to point B, and sectioning off the route into manageable chunks or stages? Stage races have become nothing more than timed omniums, and every organizer wants his to be a mini Tour de France. Save the TTs and crits for omniums. But have omniums include track and cyclocross too.
>
> As far as categories, I say get rid of them. We fool ourselves into believing we have achieved something by beating a score of riders we have selected as being of similar (but dominitable) skill level. The category might as well be, "everyone slower than me". Categories are themselves paradoxical, rewarding marginal improvement but upgrading those who improve too much. Racing yourself has the most worth, followed by racing whoever is next to you at the finish line (yes I advocate sprinting for 20th), and finally maybe there is some value in comparing yourself to everyone who races. But if we are honest with ourselves, I think we would realize there is very little value in a category.
>
>
>
>
> Robert Hughes wrote:
>
>
> I regret that my post came across as "sour grapes", and I never mentioned sandbagging. The person you refer to did nothing wrong, he couldn't compete in a different category because the current upgrade rules prevented him from using his TT results to upgrade. This is as it should be because pack racing requires skills and experience that cannot be obtained by racing in time trials. My observation is this: since TT results have no bearing on road race upgrades (as it should be), why should we use road race categories to describe the competitive level of a time trialist? Road race, track, mountain bike, and 'cross categories are designed to encourage competition and to create races where riders are relatively evenly matched on experience and fitness. Why not have the same for the time trials? Using road categories for the TT is just slightly better than arbitrariness.
>
> Furthermore, why is it that whenever someone examines the status quo, the vast majority of responses are either sarcastic or belittle the post or author. Is there a better way to categorize the TT? Maybe no category is the answer. It such a different form of racing with completely unique equipment, perhaps it should be categorized separately from road racing, like 'cross or track.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 12:38:25 -0700
> From: "T. Kenji Sugahara"
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Cyclocross
> To: OBRA List
> Message-ID: <800E6121-0080-43DF-BADA-68C758963C89@obra.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
> Cyclocross season is fast approaching- and for us, it's a very busy
> time of year.
>
> We are always looking for help at the races- with the ever increasing
> popularity of cyclocross we are are in need of help with scoring.
>
> If you are interested in helping out, there will be trainings at the
> Kruger's Farm Kermesses. We are also requesting that all teams send
> representatives to be trained.
>
> Please contact Candi if you plan on attending one of the races.
>
> Thanks!
>
> T. Kenji Sugahara
> Executive Director
> Oregon Bicycle Racing Association
> 503-302-4935
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 12:44:08 -0700
> From: "Joe Cipale"
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] A new look at the TT
> To: Brian
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
> Message-ID: <200808181944.m7IJi8tb015471@sapphire.spiritone.com>
>
> My suggestion:
>
> If you dont like how the categories/specialities fit under OBRA/USACycling, then take your ball and go start your own racing organization.
>
> ~turning off OBRA for the rest of the year so as not to be flooded with mindless rants~
>
> Joe
>
> Brian wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > I think Mr. Hughes made a really good point about the specialization of TTs, and in questioning how they fit in with road racing. It seems that they really don't fit in at all. Time trialing has really evolved into its own discipline, and it's time for the more progressive racing organizations (i.e. not the UCI) to realize and accommodate this fact. Separate TTs from road racing and get rid of categories.
> >
> >
> > With advances in equipment in the last decade, there's really no point in showing up to a TT without the proper equipment. Things have become so specialized, and the riding position so altered from what is used on a road bike, that altogether different muscles now must be developed for time trialing. This is especially hard on newer racers who haven't been around long enough to buy a dedicated TT rig, disc wheels, and darth vader helmet. The point is that it is no longer a question of taking the rider out of the peloton and seeing what he can do on his own. It is now a question of who has focused more energy on specialization.
> >
> > I think this is especially relevant to what we count as stage racing. While we are including TTs, we might as well throw in some track racing, too. And how about a cyclocross leg? And what's with criteriums? What ever happened to the concept of going from point A to point B, and sectioning off the route into manageable chunks or stages? Stage races have become nothing more than timed omniums, and every organizer wants his to be a mini Tour de France. Save the TTs and crits for omniums. But have omniums include track and cyclocross too.
> >
> > As far as categories, I say get rid of them. We fool ourselves into believing we have achieved something by beating a score of riders we have selected as being of similar (but dominitable) skill level. The category might as well be, "everyone slower than me". Categories are themselves paradoxical, rewarding marginal improvement but upgrading those who improve too much. Racing yourself has the most worth, followed by racing whoever is next to you at the finish line (yes I advocate sprinting for 20th), and finally maybe there is some value in comparing yourself to everyone who races. But if we are honest with ourselves, I think we would realize there is very little value in a category.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Robert Hughes wrote:
> >
> >
> > I regret that my post came across as "sour grapes", and I never mentioned sandbagging. The person you refer to did nothing wrong, he couldn't compete in a different category because the current upgrade rules prevented him from using his TT results to upgrade. This is as it should be because pack racing requires skills and experience that cannot be obtained by racing in time trials. My observation is this: since TT results have no bearing on road race upgrades (as it should be), why should we use road race categories to describe the competitive level of a time trialist? Road race, track, mountain bike, and 'cross categories are designed to encourage competition and to create races where riders are relatively evenly matched on experience and fitness. Why not have the same for the time trials? Using road categories for the TT is just slightly better than arbitrariness.
> >
> > Furthermore, why is it that whenever someone examines the status quo, the vast majority of responses are either sarcastic or belittle the post or author. Is there a better way to categorize the TT? Maybe no category is the answer. It such a different form of racing with completely unique equipment, perhaps it should be categorized separately from road racing, like 'cross or track.
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 12:51:55 -0700
> From: Bike Central
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Results Fast Twitch Friday 8.15.08
> To: "obra@list.obra.org"
> Message-ID: <48A9D2DB.9030000@bike-central.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> A Sprint
> 1 McLaughry Stephen Bike Central
> 1 1731 Mansker Kevin
> 1 609 Godfrey Mark Bike Central
> 4 945 Brush Walton River City Bicycles
>
> B Sprint
> 1 1756 Deardorff Chris BIKE
> 1 1705 Abers Brian Bike Central
> 1 2141 Frechen Nathan Team Beer
> 4 1755 Culpepper Clint Team Beer
>
> C Sprint
> 1 284 Featheringill Jen Bike Central
> 2 2575 Guernsey Ben
> 3 362 Bigwood Bob Portland Velo
> 4 1198 Conley Shaun XXX Athletics
>
> D Sprint
> 1 2191 Carder Jorge Team Beer
> 2 2810 Cobb Anissa
> 3 297 Hook Camille Bike Central
> 4 1567 Pico Mark
>
> Novice Women
> 1 2815 McCarthy Kristin
> 2 429 Larson Elena
>
> Cat 5 Men
> 1 1420 Garbellano Jeremy Life Cycle
> 2 1249 Riley Devin Ironclad
> 3 2672 Fawcett Corey
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 12:53:19 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Damarcus Maximus
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] FS: Cervelo P3 Carbon Time Trail Bike 56cm $2700
> OBO
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Message-ID: <583703.78151.qm@web50710.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> or sell is 2007 Cervelo P3 Carbon time trail bike, size 56cm. The bike
> was riden in two time trails, has 200 to 300 mile on the bike. In new
> condition. The bike retail new for $4500. Can be seen on Cervelo's
> website at http://www.cervelo.com/bikes.aspx?bike=P3C2008
>
>
>
>
> The bike on Cervelo's website is the 2008 model, the 2007 model is the
> same except the paint scheme is a little different. Though I am Not
> selling with any wheels.
>
>
>
>
> The compenents are:
>
>
> Dura Ace front and Rear Derailleur
>
>
> Shift Levers: Shimano DuraAce Bar-ends
>
>
> Crankset: FSA SLK Light MegaExo Carbon 175cm
>
>
> Bottom Bracket: FSA SLK MegaExo
>
>
> FSA Headset
>
>
> Fork: Carbon Wolf TT
>
>
> Seatpost: Cerv?lo aero carbon
>
>
> Brake Calipers: Cerv?lo Mach 2
>
>
> Brake Levers: Dia Compe
>
>
> Stem: ITM
>
>
> Saddle: Selle Italia Cerv?lo TT special
>
> The Bike can be seen at
> http://portland.craigslist.org/clc/bik/802232781.html
>
> -Marcus (503) 679-0294
>
>
>
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 13:11:42 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Damarcus Maximus
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] FS:New Mavic Ksyrium Tubular $500, Park PRS-3
> Bike stand $225
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Message-ID: <649021.74154.qm@web50709.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> I have for sell a set of brand new MAVIC 2007 Ksyrium SSC SL Tubular
> wheels (shimano) for $500, New Park PRS-3 bike stand for $225 that has
> the 90 pound base and retails for $430
>
>
>
> Can be seen on Craigslist at
> http://portland.craigslist.org/clc/bik/802267483.html
>
>
> -Marcus (503) 679-0294
>
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 14:17:14 -0700
> From: Erik
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] A new look at the TT
> To: Brian ,
> Message-ID:
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
> Brian, please tell us that you had a few beers with lunch and THEN wrote that.
>
>
> > Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 12:37:37 -0700
> > From: brian.a.mack@gmail.com
> > To: obra@list.obra.org
> > Subject: [OBRA Chat] A new look at the TT
> >
> >
> >
> > I think Mr. Hughes made a really good point about the specialization of TTs, and in questioning how they fit in with road racing. It seems that they really don't fit in at all. Time trialing has really evolved into its own discipline, and it's time for the more progressive racing organizations (i.e. not the UCI) to realize and accommodate this fact. Separate TTs from road racing and get rid of categories.
> >
> >
> > With advances in equipment in the last decade, there's really no point in showing up to a TT without the proper equipment. Things have become so specialized, and the riding position so altered from what is used on a road bike, that altogether different muscles now must be developed for time trialing. This is especially hard on newer racers who haven't been around long enough to buy a dedicated TT rig, disc wheels, and darth vader helmet. The point is that it is no longer a question of taking the rider out of the peloton and seeing what he can do on his own. It is now a question of who has focused more energy on specialization.
> >
> > I think this is especially relevant to what we count as stage racing. While we are including TTs, we might as well throw in some track racing, too. And how about a cyclocross leg? And what's with criteriums? What ever happened to the concept of going from point A to point B, and sectioning off the route into manageable chunks or stages? Stage races have become nothing more than timed omniums, and every organizer wants his to be a mini Tour de France. Save the TTs and crits for omniums. But have omniums include track and cyclocross too.
> >
> > As far as categories, I say get rid of them. We fool ourselves into believing we have achieved something by beating a score of riders we have selected as being of similar (but dominitable) skill level. The category might as well be, "everyone slower than me". Categories are themselves paradoxical, rewarding marginal improvement but upgrading those who improve too much. Racing yourself has the most worth, followed by racing whoever is next to you at the finish line (yes I advocate sprinting for 20th), and finally maybe there is some value in comparing yourself to everyone who races. But if we are honest with ourselves, I think we would realize there is very little value in a category.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Robert Hughes wrote:
> >
> >
> > I regret that my post came across as "sour grapes", and I never mentioned sandbagging. The person you refer to did nothing wrong, he couldn't compete in a different category because the current upgrade rules prevented him from using his TT results to upgrade. This is as it should be because pack racing requires skills and experience that cannot be obtained by racing in time trials. My observation is this: since TT results have no bearing on road race upgrades (as it should be), why should we use road race categories to describe the competitive level of a time trialist? Road race, track, mountain bike, and 'cross categories are designed to encourage competition and to create races where riders are relatively evenly matched on experience and fitness. Why not have the same for the time trials? Using road categories for the TT is just slightly better than arbitrariness.
> >
> > Furthermore, why is it that whenever someone examines the status quo, the vast majority of responses are either sarcastic or belittle the post or author. Is there a better way to categorize the TT? Maybe no category is the answer. It such a different form of racing with completely unique equipment, perhaps it should be categorized separately from road racing, like 'cross or track.
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Talk to your Yahoo! Friends via Windows Live Messenger. Find out how.
> http://www.windowslive.com/explore/messenger?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_messenger_yahoo_082008
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 14:21:06 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Damarcus Maximus
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] FS: Cervelo P3 Carbon Time Trail Bike 56cm
> $2700 OBO
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Message-ID: <416046.74472.qm@web50712.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
>
> --- On Mon, 8/18/08, Damarcus Maximus wrote:
>
> From: Damarcus Maximus
> Subject: FS: Cervelo P3 Carbon Time Trail Bike 56cm $2700 OBO
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Date: Monday, August 18, 2008, 12:53 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> For sell is 2007 Cervelo P3 Carbon time trail bike, size 56cm. The bike was riden in two time trails, has 200 to 300 mile on the bike. In new condition. The bike retail new for $4500. Can be seen on Cervelo's website at http://www.cervelo.com/bikes.aspx?bike=P3C2008
>
> The bike on Cervelo's website is the 2008 model, the 2007 model is the same except the paint scheme is a little different. Though I am Not selling with any wheels.
>
>
> The Bike can be seen on craigslist at:
> http://portland.craigslist.org/clc/bik/802232781.html
>
> -Marcus (503) 679-0294
>
>
>
>
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 15:20:03 -0700
> From: "david baker"
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] A new look at the TT
> To: "Erik" , "Brian" ,
>
> Message-ID:
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> You know I kind of disagree with brian also, but damn that is funny stuff, and actually makes some sense.Rewarding marginal improvement by upgrading those who improve a lot! Sprinting for 20th, I know I do that, as dumb as it is. And really, why do they lump time trials in the stage races, because they do it that way in Europe? So what, lets do better. Everyone's points on both sides of this issue are pretty valid.
> I think the bottom line is, as long as we ARE racing all is well.
> Lets ban flat tires! We could all agree on that!
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Erik
> To: Brian ; obra@list.obra.org
> Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 2:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] A new look at the TT
>
>
> Brian, please tell us that you had a few beers with lunch and THEN wrote that.
>
>
> > Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 12:37:37 -0700
> > From: brian.a.mack@gmail.com
> > To: obra@list.obra.org
> > Subject: [OBRA Chat] A new look at the TT
> >
> >
> >
> > I think Mr. Hughes made a really good point about the specialization of TTs, and in questioning how they fit in with road racing. It seems that they really don't fit in at all. Time trialing has really evolved into its own discipline, and it's time for the more progressive racing organizations (i.e. not the UCI) to realize and accommodate this fact. Separate TTs from road racing and get rid of categories.
> >
> >
> > With advances in equipment in the last decade, there's really no point in showing up to a TT without the proper equipment. Things have become so specialized, and the riding position so altered from what is used on a road bike, that altogether different muscles now must be developed for time trialing. This is especially hard on newer racers who haven't been around long enough to buy a dedicated TT rig, disc wheels, and darth vader helmet. The point is that it is no longer a question of taking the rider out of the peloton and seeing what he can do on his own. It is now a question of who has focused more energy on specialization.
> >
> > I think this is especially relevant to what we count as stage racing. While we are including TTs, we might as well throw in some track racing, too. And how about a cyclocross leg? And what's with criteriums? What ever happened to the concept of going from point A to point B, and sectioning off the route into manageable chunks or stages? Stage races have become nothing more than timed omniums, and every organizer wants his to be a mini Tour de France. Save the TTs and crits for omniums. But have omniums include track and cyclocross too.
> >
> > As far as categories, I say get rid of them. We fool ourselves into believing we have achieved something by beating a score of riders we have selected as being of similar (but dominitable) skill level. The category might as well be, "everyone slower than me". Categories are themselves paradoxical, rewarding marginal improvement but upgrading those who improve too much. Racing yourself has the most worth, followed by racing whoever is next to you at the finish line (yes I advocate sprinting for 20th), and finally maybe there is some value in comparing yourself to everyone who races. But if we are honest with ourselves, I think we would realize there is very little value in a category.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Robert Hughes wrote:
> >
> >
> > I regret that my post came across as "sour grapes", and I never mentioned sandbagging. The person you refer to did nothing wrong, he couldn't compete in a different category because the current upgrade rules prevented him from using his TT results to upgrade. This is as it should be because pack racing requires skills and experience that cannot be obtained by racing in time trials. My observation is this: since TT results have no bearing on road race upgrades (as it should be), why should we use road race categories to describe the competitive level of a time trialist? Road race, track, mountain bike, and 'cross categories are designed to encourage competition and to create races where riders are relatively evenly matched on experience and fitness. Why not have the same for the time trials? Using road categories for the TT is just slightly better than arbitrariness.
> >
> > Furthermore, why is it that whenever someone examines the status quo, the vast majority of responses are either sarcastic or belittle the post or author. Is there a better way to categorize the TT? Maybe no category is the answer. It such a different form of racing with completely unique equipment, perhaps it should be categorized separately from road racing, like 'cross or track.
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Talk to your Yahoo! Friends via Windows Live Messenger. Find Out How
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 15:20:11 -0700
> From: Rob Hughes
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Time Trial Divisions
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Message-ID: <48a9f59b9e8c8_1c315a0dc4a619443278@lizard.tmail>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Ok, thanks for the constructive criticism. I 'll happily refrain from further posts on this sunject.
> Rob
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 15:22:21 -0700
> From: Brian
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] TT, categories, and beer for lunch
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Message-ID: <48a9f61d15de4_1c315a0dbcf93604335f@lizard.tmail>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
>
>
>
> No beer for me today Erik, unfortunately.
>
> I think it is important for an organization to be able to reassess its own institutions from time to time. If you aren't interested in doing that, this post isn't for you.
>
> The categories thing might seem extreme, but honestly that is how they do it in many countries where cycling has been around a lot longer than it has here. Whatever its benefit, Categorization creates only the illusion of fair competition and success.
>
> And I do believe that realistically, for the average racer out there, it would be more fulfilling and realistic to focus on his own improvement and beating his friends at the races than to worry about getting on the podium and eventually becoming a cat2, the be-all end-all of local cycling. But that's just one opinion on healthy competition mentality.
>
> As for time trialing, I do think that it is a completely distinct discipline than road racing. I also think it' a serious flaw in stage race design that it requires investing a couple grand in aero equipment simply for the sake of being competitive in GC, when in one way of looking at it, TT has little to do with the actual concept of a stage race.
>
> Also, let's face it, most people with TT bikes just get them out of the garage a few times a year when they need them. Thinking of TT as a separate discipline, with its own categories if necessary, would make them more attractive purchases and encourage using them more.
>
> And finally, I believe that the perception that time trialing is a subdivision of road racing creates just one more barrier for new cyclists entering the sport. E.g., potential racer shows up to watch Mt. Hood Cycling Classic, sees that every racer is dressed like a mutant and riding a min. 5k dollar bike, and has no way of relating that to the kind of biking he does.
>
> Thanks for asking me to clarify that. Now for some beer...
>
>
>
>
>
> Erik wrote:
>
> Brian, please tell us that you had a few beers with lunch and THEN wrote that.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 15:26:11 -0700 (PDT)
> From: "Jason A. Skelton"
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] 2008 campagnolo Record hubs
> To: obra
> Message-ID: <544275.50523.qm@web52108.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Does anyone have any experience with the new, re-designed campy hubs? Internet rumors and commentary are that the new hubs are inferior to the older campy stuff. Does anyone have any experience or insights to offer?
>
> I am a committed campy shifter and need to know.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Jason Skelton
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 15:50:04 -0700 (PDT)
> From: "Steve @TruesdaleImports.com"
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Tuesday Track Schedule
> To: OBRA
> Message-ID: <812051.1577.qm@web54101.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Masters State Track Championships and BBQ are less than two weeks away!
> Tomorrow night we will have your last chance to prepare for your 500's, Kilo's and Team (Olympic) Sprints. That is the order we will run things in too.
> So get a team (3 for men/mixed and 2 for women) together and get on over to the track.
> Registration opens at 5pm and racing starts at 6:30pm
> ?
> The following week is being run by Andrea Jones and is a fundraiser for her Senior Project. More info here?.
>
> See you at the track.
> Steve Truesdale?
> Truesdale Imports?
> 503-232-1704
> steve@truesdaleimports.com
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 15:51:51 -0700
> From: ac
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] ALERT: STOLEN CARBON LEOPOLD BEING HELD
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Message-ID: <48a9fd072ebc_1c015b7a2c93e884694b@lizard.tmail>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> I just caught some guy with a stolen leopold full carbon bike. Cops showed up and as the guy didn't have the key on him (he stole the lock too) they couldn't arrest him. He is lurking in the neighborhood but I am downtown standing next to the bike and have put my own lock on it. Call me at 541 490 0625 asap if you know who owns this bike.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 16
> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 16:00:26 -0700
> From: arlo
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] ALERT: Stolen Carbon Leopard being held
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Message-ID: <48a9ff0a4ad15_1c315a0dcb83c78436fe@lizard.tmail>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> I just saw a guy downtown (Naito and SW Yamhill) walking with a stolen carbon Leopard. He looked sketchy, and when I ran him down he clearly had stolen this bike. It has a front flat so may have come from an open house or office and he appears to have stolen the lock too- he locked it up when the cops showed up and they couldn't find the key. I locked it up as well with my own lock. If anyone knows who owns this bike, please have them call 541 490 0625 ASAP.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 17
> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 23:04:26 +0000
> From: gschreckchat@comcast.net
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Time Trial Divisions
> To: "david baker" , "Robert Hughes"
> ,
> Message-ID:
> <081820082304.12809.48A9FFFA0000F96B0000320922155517249B0E080C050C0A9D080C9C09@comcast.net>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> On that basis, lets give everyone a medal so everyone can feel good about themselves. It can be like summer camp or some of the recreational rides. Cycling is the only sport that I know where people become so obsessed with medals and winning a category instead of looking at their relative performance to their past performances and others. The race should be about competing and doing your best, bringing a piece of hardware home. Nice if it happens, but it should not be the focus. Slicing the categories so thin that nearly everyone is in the medal hunt only makes winning less meaningful (i.e your example-Mtn Bike races).
>
> --
>
> George Schreck
> gschreckchat@comcast.net
> (503) 502-0425
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: "david baker"
>
> Probably the same difference that it makes in mt biking where it is also a timed event in which your competitors don't affect your time.
> We get more winners and there fore we generally have more FUN! Otherwise only the top three pros win at any event. Boring. Less participation.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: gschreckchat@comcast.net
> To: Robert Hughes ; obra@list.obra.org
> Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 8:04 AM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Time Trial Divisions
>
>
> Since a TT is a timed event and the other competitors in your field have no effect on your time, what difference does it really make?
>
> --
>
> George Schreck
> gschreckchat@comcast.net
> (503) 502-0425
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: Robert Hughes
>
> > I regret that my post came across as "sour grapes", and I never mentioned
> > sandbagging. The person you refer to did nothing wrong, he couldn't compete in
> > a different category because the current upgrade rules prevented him from using
> > his TT results to upgrade. This is as it should be because pack racing requires
> > skills and experience that cannot be obtained by racing in time trials. My
> > observation is this: since TT results have no bearing on road race upgrades (as
> > it should be), why should we use road race categories to describe the
> > competitive level of a time trialist? Road race, track, mountain bike, and
> > 'cross categories are designed to encourage competition and to create races
> > where riders are re lative ly evenly matched on experience and fitness. Why not
> > have the same for the time trials? Using road categories for the TT is just
> > slightly better than arbitrariness.
> >
> > Furthermore, why is it that whenever someone examines the status quo, the vast
> > majority of responses are either sarcastic or belittle the post or author. Is
> > there a better way to categorize the TT? Maybe no category is the answer. It
> > such a different form of racing with completely unique equipment, perhaps it
> > should be categorized separately from road racing, like 'cross or track.
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> -------------- next part --------------
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> URL: http://list.obra.org/posts/obra/attachments/20080818/6f990f9c/attachment.htm
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 18
> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 16:20:58 -0700
> From: "Joe Cipale"
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] TT, categories, and beer for lunch
> To: Brian
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
> Message-ID: <200808182320.m7INKwEq021922@sapphire.spiritone.com>
>
> And people bitch about USACycling... Fer chrissakes. There will never be
> a completely 'fair' scoring scheme. This is not kindergarten where we
> give everyone a ribbon for participating. Take the G**D*** touchy-feely
> 'My Child is an Honor Student at Who-gives-a-Damn Middle School' and go
> away.
>
> Newsflash: Life sucks sometimes. I am not blessed as much athletic prowess as Michael Phelpes (attempt at being topical) or Lance, or even the lowly bench
> warmer on any given professional sports team.
>
> I dislike the fact that no matter where I go and race, I have to compete
> against Harry Phinney, David Zimbleman, or George Schreck. Oh booo-hooo for
> me. Give them their own category and create a special one for Joe so I
> can always bring home a g-damn medal.
>
> If you want to win, then damnit, get on your bike and ride.
>
> Now THAT is a rant worth posting to OBRA!
>
>
> Brian wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> > No beer for me today Erik, unfortunately.
> >
> > I think it is important for an organization to be able to reassess its own institutions from time to time. If you aren't interested in doing that, this post isn't for you.
> >
> > The categories thing might seem extreme, but honestly that is how they do it in many countries where cycling has been around a lot longer than it has here. Whatever its benefit, Categorization creates only the illusion of fair competition and success.
> >
> > And I do believe that realistically, for the average racer out there, it would be more fulfilling and realistic to focus on his own improvement and beating his friends at the races than to worry about getting on the podium and eventually becoming a cat2, the be-all end-all of local cycling. But that's just one opinion on healthy competition mentality.
> >
> > As for time trialing, I do think that it is a completely distinct discipline than road racing. I also think it' a serious flaw in stage race design that it requires investing a couple grand in aero equipment simply for the sake of being competitive in GC, when in one way of looking at it, TT has little to do with the actual concept of a stage race.
> >
> > Also, let's face it, most people with TT bikes just get them out of the garage a few times a year when they need them. Thinking of TT as a separate discipline, with its own categories if necessary, would make them more attractive purchases and encourage using them more.
> >
> > And finally, I believe that the perception that time trialing is a subdivision of road racing creates just one more barrier for new cyclists entering the sport. E.g., potential racer shows up to watch Mt. Hood Cycling Classic, sees that every racer is dressed like a mutant and riding a min. 5k dollar bike, and has no way of relating that to the kind of biking he does.
> >
> > Thanks for asking me to clarify that. Now for some beer...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Erik wrote:
> >
> > Brian, please tell us that you had a few beers with lunch and THEN wrote that.
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 19
> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 16:34:02 -0700
> From: Chris Alling
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] TT, categories, and beer for lunch
> To:
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
> Message-ID:
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I will be happy to vote to give Joe his own catagory.
>
> > Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 16:20:58 -0700> From: joec@aracnet.com> To: brian.a.mack@gmail.com> CC: obra@list.obra.org> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] TT, categories, and beer for lunch> > And people bitch about USACycling... Fer chrissakes. There will never be> a completely 'fair' scoring scheme. This is not kindergarten where we> give everyone a ribbon for participating. Take the G**D*** touchy-feely> 'My Child is an Honor Student at Who-gives-a-Damn Middle School' and go> away.> > Newsflash: Life sucks sometimes. I am not blessed as much athletic prowess as Michael Phelpes (attempt at being topical) or Lance, or even the lowly bench> warmer on any given professional sports team.> > I dislike the fact that no matter where I go and race, I have to compete> against Harry Phinney, David Zimbleman, or George Schreck. Oh booo-hooo for> me. Give them their own category and create a special one for Joe so I> can always bring home a g-damn medal.> > If you want to win, then damnit, get on y
> our bike and ride.> > Now THAT is a rant worth posting to OBRA! > > > Brian wrote:> > > > > > > > > No beer for me today Erik, unfortunately.> > > > I think it is important for an organization to be able to reassess its own institutions from time to time. If you aren't interested in doing that, this post isn't for you.> > > > The categories thing might seem extreme, but honestly that is how they do it in many countries where cycling has been around a lot longer than it has here. Whatever its benefit, Categorization creates only the illusion of fair competition and success.> > > > And I do believe that realistically, for the average racer out there, it would be more fulfilling and realistic to focus on his own improvement and beating his friends at the races than to worry about getting on the podium and eventually becoming a cat2, the be-all end-all of local cycling. But that's just one opinion on healthy competition mentality.> > > > As for time trialing, I do think that it
> is a completely distinct discipline than road racing. I also think it' a serious flaw in stage race design that it requires investing a couple grand in aero equipment simply for the sake of being competitive in GC, when in one way of looking at it, TT has little to do with the actual concept of a stage race. > > > > Also, let's face it, most people with TT bikes just get them out of the garage a few times a year when they need them. Thinking of TT as a separate discipline, with its own categories if necessary, would make them more attractive purchases and encourage using them more.> > > > And finally, I believe that the perception that time trialing is a subdivision of road racing creates just one more barrier for new cyclists entering the sport. E.g., potential racer shows up to watch Mt. Hood Cycling Classic, sees that every racer is dressed like a mutant and riding a min. 5k dollar bike, and has no way of relating that to the kind of biking he does.> > > > Thanks for aski
> ng me to clarify that. Now for some beer...> > > > > > > > > > > > Erik wrote:> > > > Brian, please tell us that you had a few beers with lunch and THEN wrote that. > > _______________________________________________> > OBRA mailing list> > obra@list.obra.org> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org> > _______________________________________________> OBRA mailing list> obra@list.obra.org> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _________________________________________________________________
> See what people are saying about Windows Live. Check out featured posts.
> http://www.windowslive.com/connect?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_connect2_082008
> -------------- next part --------------
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> URL: http://list.obra.org/posts/obra/attachments/20080818/a8a9c444/attachment.htm
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 20
> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 16:44:07 -0700
> From: "Martin Baker"
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] TT, categories, and beer for lunch
> To: "'Chris Alling'" ,
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
> Message-ID: <20080818234815.E847E46149B@list.obra.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> .and George.
>
>
>
> ;-)
>
> _____
>
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of Chris Alling
> Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 4:34 PM
> To: joec@aracnet.com
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] TT, categories, and beer for lunch
>
>
>
>
> I will be happy to vote to give Joe his own catagory.
>
>
>
> _____
>
> > Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 16:20:58 -0700
> > From: joec@aracnet.com
> > To: brian.a.mack@gmail.com
> > CC: obra@list.obra.org
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] TT, categories, and beer for lunch
> >
> > And people bitch about USACycling... Fer chrissakes. There will never be
> > a completely 'fair' scoring scheme. This is not kindergarten where we
> > give everyone a ribbon for participating. Take the G**D*** touchy-feely
> > 'My Child is an Honor Student at Who-gives-a-Damn Middle School' and go
> > away.
> >
> > Newsflash: Life sucks sometimes. I am not blessed as much athletic prowess
> as Michael Phelpes (attempt at being topical) or Lance, or even the lowly
> bench
> > warmer on any given professional sports team.
> >
> > I dislike the fact that no matter where I go and race, I have to compete
> > against Harry Phinney, David Zimbleman, or George Schreck. Oh booo-hooo
> for
> > me. Give them their own category and create a special one for Joe so I
> > can always bring home a g-damn medal.
> >
> > If you want to win, then damnit, get on your bike and ride.
> >
> > Now THAT is a rant worth posting to OBRA!
> >
> >
> > Brian wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > No beer for me today Erik, unfortunately.
> > >
> > > I think it is important for an organization to be able to reassess its
> own institutions from time to time. If you aren't interested in doing that,
> this post isn't for you.
> > >
> > > The categories thing might seem extreme, but honestly that is how they
> do it in many countries where cycling has been around a lot longer than it
> has here. Whatever its benefit, Categorization creates only the illusion of
> fair competition and success.
> > >
> > > And I do believe that realistically, for the average racer out there, it
> would be more fulfilling and realistic to focus on his own improvement and
> beating his friends at the races than to worry about getting on the podium
> and eventually becoming a cat2, the be-all end-all of local cycling. But
> that's just one opinion on healthy competition mentality.
> > >
> > > As for time trialing, I do think that it is a completely distinct
> discipline than road racing. I also think it' a serious flaw in stage race
> design that it requires investing a couple grand in aero equipment simply
> for the sake of being competitive in GC, when in one way of looking at it,
> TT has little to do with the actual concept of a stage race.
> > >
> > > Also, let's face it, most people with TT bikes just get them out of the
> garage a few times a year when they need them. Thinking of TT as a separate
> discipline, with its own categories if necessary, would make them more
> attractive purchases and encourage using them more.
> > >
> > > And finally, I believe that the perception that time trialing is a
> subdivision of road racing creates just one more barrier for new cyclists
> entering the sport. E.g., potential racer shows up to watch Mt. Hood Cycling
> Classic, sees that every racer is dressed like a mutant and riding a min. 5k
> dollar bike, and has no way of relating that to the kind of biking he does.
> > >
> > > Thanks for asking me to clarify that. Now for some beer...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Erik wrote:
> > >
> > > Brian, please tell us that you had a few beers with lunch and THEN wrote
> that.
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > OBRA mailing list
> > > obra@list.obra.org
> > > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _____
>
> See what people are saying about Windows Live. Check out featured posts.
> Check It Out!
>
>
> -------------- next part --------------
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> URL: http://list.obra.org/posts/obra/attachments/20080818/b8280377/attachment.htm
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 21
> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 16:54:05 -0700
> From: "Thomas Hoffman"
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] TT, categories, and beer for lunch
> To: "'Martin Baker'" , "'Chris Alling'"
> ,
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
> Message-ID: <010901c9018d$b3afcff0$17d1a8c0@IBM7F4965EFAF1>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> George is already in his own Category.
>
> Thomas Hoffman
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of Martin Baker
> Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 4:44 PM
> To: 'Chris Alling'; joec@aracnet.com
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] TT, categories, and beer for lunch
>
> .and George.
>
>
>
> ;-)
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of Chris Alling
> Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 4:34 PM
> To: joec@aracnet.com
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] TT, categories, and beer for lunch
>
>
>
>
> I will be happy to vote to give Joe his own catagory.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> > Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 16:20:58 -0700
> > From: joec@aracnet.com
> > To: brian.a.mack@gmail.com
> > CC: obra@list.obra.org
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] TT, categories, and beer for lunch
> >
> > And people bitch about USACycling... Fer chrissakes. There will never be
> > a completely 'fair' scoring scheme. This is not kindergarten where we
> > give everyone a ribbon for participating. Take the G**D*** touchy-feely
> > 'My Child is an Honor Student at Who-gives-a-Damn Middle School' and go
> > away.
> >
> > Newsflash: Life sucks sometimes. I am not blessed as much athletic prowess
> as Michael Phelpes (attempt at being topical) or Lance, or even the lowly
> bench
> > warmer on any given professional sports team.
> >
> > I dislike the fact that no matter where I go and race, I have to compete
> > against Harry Phinney, David Zimbleman, or George Schreck. Oh booo-hooo
> for
> > me. Give them their own category and create a special one for Joe so I
> > can always bring home a g-damn medal.
> >
> > If you want to win, then damnit, get on your bike and ride.
> >
> > Now THAT is a rant worth posting to OBRA!
> >
> >
> > Brian wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > No beer for me today Erik, unfortunately.
> > >
> > > I think it is important for an organization to be able to reassess its
> own institutions from time to time. If you aren't interested in doing that,
> this post isn't for you.
> > >
> > > The categories thing might seem extreme, but honestly that is how they
> do it in many countries where cycling has been around a lot longer than it
> has here. Whatever its benefit, Categorization creates only the illusion of
> fair competition and success.
>
> > >
> > > And I do believe that realistically, for the average racer out there, it
> would be more fulfilling and realistic to focus on his own improvement and
> beating his friends at the races than to worry about getting on the podium
> and eventually becoming a cat2, the be-all end-all of local cycling. But
> that's just one opinion on healthy competition mentality.
> > >
> > > As for time trialing, I do think that it is a completely distinct
> discipline than road racing. I also think it' a serious flaw in stage race
> design that it requires investing a couple grand in aero equipment simply
> for the sake of being competitive in GC, when in one way of looking at it,
> TT has little to do with the actual concept of a stage race.
> > >
> > > Also, let's face it, most people with TT bikes just get them out of the
> garage a few times a year when they need them. Thinking of TT as a separate
> discipline, with its own categories if necessary, would make them more
> attractive purchases and encourage using them more.
> > >
> > > And finally, I believe that the perception that time trialing is a
> subdivision of road racing creates just one more barrier for new cyclists
> entering the sport. E.g., potential racer shows up to watch Mt. Hood Cycling
> Classic, sees that every racer is dressed like a mutant and riding a min. 5k
> dollar bike, and has no way of relating that to the kind of biking he does.
> > >
> > > Thanks for asking me to clarify that. Now for some beer...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Erik wrote:
> > >
> > > Brian, please tell us that you had a few beers with lunch and THEN wrote
> that.
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > OBRA mailing list
> > > obra@list.obra.org
> > > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> ________________________________
>
> See what people are saying about Windows Live. Check out featured posts.
> Check It Out!
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 22
> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 17:19:03 -0700
> From: "Jeff Tedder & Shari"
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Tuesday night masters track racing
> To: "Thomas Hoffman" , "'Martin Baker'"
> , "'Chris Alling'" ,
>
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
> Message-ID: <035301c90191$30231120$0200a8c0@D3JV3G61>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> Anybody planning on racing on Tuesday that wants to do the Team Sprint and
> does not have a team let me know....I will be there doing the Kilo but have
> never done the Team Sprint and would like to give it a go....Thanks
>
> Jeff Tedder
> Hammer Nutrition Products
> Solid Core Training
> 503-246-2388
> cell 503-473-7650
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 23
> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 17:22:30 -0700
> From: Thom Kneeland
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Wheels for sale
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Message-ID: <48aa124681736_3da01556aab212e8157b@lizard.tmail>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Hey every one. The wheels are gone. Thanks.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 24
> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 17:37:20 -0700
> From: "Joe Cipale"
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] **** X-spasm **** RE: TT, categories, and
> beer for lunch
> To: Chris Alling
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
> Message-ID: <200808190037.m7J0bK0C017814@sapphire.spiritone.com>
>
> I will allow you into my Cat CHris. I need some competetion for a little bit before I ride off with my medal... :^)
>
> Chris Alling wrote:
>
> > I will be happy to vote to give Joe his own catagory.
> >
> > > Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 16:20:58 -0700> From: joec@aracnet.com> To: brian.a.mack@gmail.com> CC: obra@list.obra.org> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] TT, categories, and beer for lunch> > And people bitch about USACycling... Fer chrissakes. There will never be> a completely 'fair' scoring scheme. This is not kindergarten where we> give everyone a ribbon for participating. Take the G**D*** touchy-feely> 'My Child is an Honor Student at Who-gives-a-Damn Middle School' and go> away.> > Newsflash: Life sucks sometimes. I am not blessed as much athletic prowess as Michael Phelpes (attempt at being topical) or Lance, or even the lowly bench> warmer on any given professional sports team.> > I dislike the fact that no matter where I go and race, I have to compete> against Harry Phinney, David Zimbleman, or George Schreck. Oh booo-hooo for> me. Give them their own category and create a special one for Joe so I> can always bring home a g-damn medal.> > If you want to win, then damnit, get o!
> n your bike and ride.> > Now THAT is a rant worth posting to OBRA! > > > Brian wrote:> > > > > > > > > No beer for me today Erik, unfortunately.> > > > I think it is important for an organization to be able to reassess its own institutions from time to time. If you aren't interested in doing that, this post isn't for you.> > > > The categories thing might seem extreme, but honestly that is how they do it in many countries where cycling has been around a lot longer than it has here. Whatever its benefit, Categorization creates only the illusion of fair competition and success.> > > > And I do believe that realistically, for the average racer out there, it would be more fulfilling and realistic to focus on his own improvement and beating his friends at the races than to worry about getting on the podium and eventually becoming a cat2, the be-all end-all of local cycling. But that's just one opinion on healthy competition mentality.> > > > As for time trialing, I do think that!
> it is a completely distinct discipline than road racing. I al!
> so think it' a serious flaw in stage race design that it requires investing a couple grand in aero equipment simply for the sake of being competitive in GC, when in one way of looking at it, TT has little to do with the actual concept of a stage race. > > > > Also, let's face it, most people with TT bikes just get them out of the garage a few times a year when they need them. Thinking of TT as a separate discipline, with its own categories if necessary, would make them more attractive purchases and encourage using them more.> > > > And finally, I believe that the perception that time trialing is a subdivision of road racing creates just one more barrier for new cyclists entering the sport. E.g., potential racer shows up to watch Mt. Hood Cycling Classic, sees that every racer is dressed like a mutant and riding a min. 5k dollar bike, and has no way of relating that to the kind of biking he does.> > > > Thanks for asking me to clarify that. Now for some beer...> > > > > > > >!
> > > > > Erik wrote:> > > > Brian, please tell us that you had a few beers with lunch and THEN wrote that. > > _______________________________________________> > OBRA mailing list> > obra@list.obra.org> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org> > _______________________________________________> OBRA mailing list> obra@list.obra.org> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > See what people are saying about Windows Live. Check out featured posts.
> > http://www.windowslive.com/connect?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_connect2_082008
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 25
> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 18:22:41 -0700
> From: uma
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] of time trials and categories
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Message-ID: <48aa206146371_1c315a0dd578f1c4371e@lizard.tmail>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Seems to me if the dreaded multisport athletes are coming around and kicking booty on the "pure" cyclists it would just be added motivation to train harder/upgrade your gear. Pro tour teams all have guys with different strengths doing what they do best on stage races. You have your TTers, your climbers, your domestiques, and while there's crossover with the skill sets they all have their own strengths. TTers focus on winning TTs, not trying to ride every PIR, crit and road race. Multisport athletes tend to do well at TTs because that's what they train to do! They're not trying to win BAR points and stage races. As one racer I know said "You have to train your *** off just to be mediocre in this sport." This is true regardless of category or even specialization.
>
> Or as an (in)famous coach I know once said "If your only reason for racing is to win, you're probably going to be disappointed a lot. If you're not disappointed a lot, you're probably in the wrong category."
>
> S'cuse me. I have some meeting of teams to finish coordinating! And then there's that matter of that sexy P3 TT bike to consider...
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 26
> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 19:28:35 -0700
> From: EDWARD NORTON
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Photos
> To: obra
> Message-ID:
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
> Hello OBRA land
>
> I just posted some of my photos from the Crit Championships. Sorry I wasn't there all day.
>
> http://web.mac.com/stoppingtime/Site/Welcome.html
>
>
> Ed Norton
> Stoppingtime
> 503-625-0345 hm 503-781-1924 cell
>
>
> ---------