Karsten Hagen

I feel a whole new email string coming on......

If two people of equal abilities start a TT at the same time of day during
the same weather conditions and one is on a standard road bike and one is on
a Felt DA with Zipp disc and Giro TT helmet (my dream setup, pay no
attention to the details) the guy on the TT setup will win; that is obvious.

So, having a "traditional" category levels the playing field for those that
don't have the scratch can still compete for a medal.

Karsten

On 8/19/08 5:34 PM, "Jess Mace" wrote:

> It¹s a common misnomer at this level of competition to think that aero-gear is
> a huge
> technical advantage over strong and targeted training. I'm not saying it does
> not help or provide some kind
> of advantage to many riders, however I've passed quite a few guys on Cervelo
> P3's with full
> Zipp componentry and wheelsets on my old aluminum TT set up...and have been
> passed by quite a few more
> guys no aerogear whatsoever...I've raced and learned enough now to not credit
> TT placements with one's expendable income..
> thinking otherwise is simply falling for what a good marketer has told you in
> some advertisement.
>
>
> Jess Mace, MPH
> Clinical Outcomes Research - Oregon Sinus Center
> Department of Otolaryngology - Head and Neck Surgery
> Oregon Health & Science University
> 503.494.5886
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf
> Of Karsten Hagen
> Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 5:23 PM
> To: mike.murray@obra.org; obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] TT, categories, and beer for lunch
>
> How about taking a cue from the DH crowd and running a "traditional"
> category of TT at districts, similar to the Hardtail category in some DH
> events. Meaning only standard road equipment is allowed (skinsuits OK).
> That way, "buying speed" is not necessarily a ticket to a district medal.
>
> Karsten
>
>
> On 8/19/08 5:12 PM, "Mike Murray" wrote:
>
>> TTs are in stage races primarily because otherwise there would be multiple
>> riders that finished with the same time; i.e. multiple riders tied for
>> places with o reasonable way to sort them out. This occurs because a single
>> time is given for all riders that finish in a group together. Pack time is
>> a reasonable method and is done universally in bike racing. In the past it
>> was impossible to give riders their own finish time. This could be done
>> with current timing equipment but I don't think we want to encourage
>> everyone sprinting in so that they don't lose the time between 20th and
>> 40th. I am also not sure it would be such a great idea for us to do things
>> so different from everyone else in the world.
>>
>> A separate category for TT would be possible but stage races will still need
>> to be divided by road category and will still need to include a TT. It
>> would also require a fair amount more administrative work. If someone wants
>> there to be separate categories for they can feel free to propose that rule
>> change through the rule change process outline in the first paragraph of the
>> rules.
>>
>> An alternative the I would suggest is that all TTs produce overall results
>> for all competitors listing the fastest to slowest. There could then be
>> secondary results done for specific groups; individual categories, age
>> groups, home town, hair color ... Whatever. I see no reason why a single
>> rider could not be the 5th place overall, 1st place Cat 4 and 2nd place 35+.
>>
>> I also don't think that the importance of TT specific equipment should be
>> over emphasized. There is a measurable benefit from a skinsuit, TT bars and
>> aero wheels (mostly front wheel) but the other stuff provides minimal
>> benefit. Even a purchase of a maximal amount of TT equipment is only likely
>> to improve placing by a small amount. Most people could ride a stage race
>> TT on their regular road bike and they GC position would be minimally
>> effected.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
>> Behalf Of Brian
>> Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 15:22 PM
>> To: obra@list.obra.org
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] TT, categories, and beer for lunch
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> No beer for me today Erik, unfortunately.
>>
>> I think it is important for an organization to be able to reassess its own
>> institutions from time to time. If you aren't interested in doing that,
>> this post isn't for you.
>>
>> The categories thing might seem extreme, but honestly that is how they do it
>> in many countries where cycling has been around a lot longer than it has
>> here. Whatever its benefit, Categorization creates only the illusion of
>> fair competition and success.
>>
>> And I do believe that realistically, for the average racer out there, it
>> would be more fulfilling and realistic to focus on his own improvement and
>> beating his friends at the races than to worry about getting on the podium
>> and eventually becoming a cat2, the be-all end-all of local cycling. But
>> that's just one opinion on healthy competition mentality.
>>
>> As for time trialing, I do think that it is a completely distinct discipline
>> than road racing. I also think it' a serious flaw in stage race design that
>> it requires investing a couple grand in aero equipment simply for the sake
>> of being competitive in GC, when in one way of looking at it, TT has little
>> to do with the actual concept of a stage race.
>>
>> Also, let's face it, most people with TT bikes just get them out of the
>> garage a few times a year when they need them. Thinking of TT as a separate
>> discipline, with its own categories if necessary, would make them more
>> attractive purchases and encourage using them more.
>>
>> And finally, I believe that the perception that time trialing is a
>> subdivision of road racing creates just one more barrier for new cyclists
>> entering the sport. E.g., potential racer shows up to watch Mt. Hood
>> Cycling Classic, sees that every racer is dressed like a mutant and riding a
>> min. 5k dollar bike, and has no way of relating that to the kind of biking
>> he does.
>>
>> Thanks for asking me to clarify that. Now for some beer...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Erik wrote:
>>
>> Brian, please tell us that you had a few beers with lunch and THEN wrote
>> that.
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