Joe Cipale
Dammit Chris,
NOW you are just being nonsensical! ;)
Joe
Haverty, Chris wrote:
> George,=20
> =A0
> That is silly.=A0 Obviously everyone=A0can't be the best.=A0=A0To be fair a=
> nd increase rider participation, we just need everyone to be above average.
> =A0
> Chris
>
> --- On Wed, 8/20/08, gschreckchat@comcast.net wr=
> ote:
>
> From: gschreckchat@comcast.net
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] TT, categories, and beer for lunch
> To: "Karsten Hagen" , mike.murray@obra.org, obra@list.obra=
> .org
> Date: Wednesday, August 20, 2008, 10:02 AM
>
>
>
> And on hill claims, we could weight the bikes and have differnt categories =
> for each rider by weight of bike.=A0=20
> =A0
> Some people have time to train more, which is not fair to those who do not =
> have the time or desire, so we could have categories by hours trained per w=
> eek.
> =A0
> We could have TT's broken down by shoulder width, becuase as we all know, p=
> eople with wide shoulders have a disadvantage aerodynamically.
> =A0
> I think if we are creative enough, we can ensure everyone goes home with a =
> gold medal and can be proud of themselves no mater how slow they are or how=
> little=A0effort they put in to the sport.
> =A0
> After all, it really is unfair that many people cannot say they are the bes=
> t.=A0 Everyone should be the best.
> =A0
> --
>
> George Schreck=20
> gschreckchat@comcast.net=20
> (503) 502-0425
> =A0
> -------------- Original message --------------=20
> From: Karsten Hagen =20
>
> > How about taking a cue from the DH crowd and running a "traditional"=20
> > category of TT at districts, similar to the Hardtail category in some DH=
> =20
> > events. Meaning only standard road equipment is allowed (skinsuits OK).=
> =20
> > That way, "buying speed" is not necessarily a ticket to a district medal.=
> =20
> >=20
> > Karsten=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > On 8/19/08 5:12 PM, "Mike Murray" wrote:=20
> >=20
> > > TTs are in stage races primarily because otherwise there would be multi=
> ple=20
> > > riders that finished with the same time; i.e. multiple riders tied for=
> =20
> > > places with o reasonable way to sort them out. This occurs because a si=
> ngle=20
> > > time is given for all riders that finish in a group together. Pack time=
> is < BR>> ; > a reasonable method and is done universally in bike racing. =
> In the past it=20
> > > was impossible to give riders their own finish time. This could be done=
> =20
> > > with current timing equipment but I don't think we want to encourage=20
> > > everyone sprinting in so that they don't lose the time between 20th and=
> =20
> > > 40th. I am also not sure it would be such a great idea for us to do thi=
> ngs=20
> > > so different from everyone else in the world.=20
> > >=20
> > > A separate category for TT would be possible but stage races will still=
> need=20
> > > to be divided by road category and will still need to include a TT. It=
> =20
> > > would also require a fair amount more administrative work. If someone w=
> ants=20
> > > there to be separate categories for they can feel free to propose that =
> rule=20
> > > change through the rule change process outline in the first paragraph o=
> f the=20
> > > rules.=20
> > >=20
> > > An alternative the I would suggest is that all TTs produce overall resu=
> lts=20
> > > for all competitors listing the fastest to slowest. There could then be=
> =20
> > > secondary results done for specific groups; individual categories, age=
> =20
> > > groups, home town, hair color ... Whatever. I see no reason why a singl=
> e=20
> > > rider could not be the 5th place overall, 1st place Cat 4 and 2nd place=
> 35+.=20
> > >=20
> > > I also don't think that the importance of TT specific equipment should =
> be=20
> > > over emphasized. There is a measurable benefit from a skinsuit, TT bars=
> and=20
> > > aero wheels (mostly front wheel) but the other stuff provides minimal=
> =20
> > > benefit. Even a purchase of a maximal amount of TT equipment is only li=
> kely=20
> > > to improve placing by a small amount. Most people could ride a stage ra=
> ce=20
> > > TT on their regular road bike and they GC position would be minimally=
> =20
> > > effected.=20
> > & gt;=20
> > > Mike=20
> > >=20
> > > -----Original Message-----=20
> > > From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On=
> =20
> > > Behalf Of Brian=20
> > > Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 15:22 PM=20
> > > To: obra@list.obra.org=20
> > > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] TT, categories, and beer for lunch=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > No beer for me today Erik, unfortunately.=20
> > >=20
> > > I think it is important for an organization to be able to reassess its =
> own=20
> > > institutions from time to time. If you aren't interested in doing that,=
> =20
> > > this post isn't for you.=20
> > >=20
> > > The categories thing might seem extreme, but honestly that is how they =
> do it=20
> > > in many countries where cycling has been around a lot longer than it ha=
> s=20
> > > here. Whatever its benefit, Categorization creates only the illusion of=
> =20
> &g t; > fair competition and success.=20
> > >=20
> > > And I do believe that realistically, for the average racer out there, i=
> t=20
> > > would be more fulfilling and realistic to focus on his own improvement =
> and=20
> > > beating his friends at the races than to worry about getting on the pod=
> ium=20
> > > and eventually becoming a cat2, the be-all end-all of local cycling. Bu=
> t=20
> > > that's just one opinion on healthy competition mentality.=20
> > >=20
> > > As for time trialing, I do think that it is a completely distinct disci=
> pline=20
> > > than road racing. I also think it' a serious flaw in stage race design =
> that=20
> > > it requires investing a couple grand in aero equipment simply for the s=
> ake=20
> > > of being competitive in GC, when in one way of looking at it, TT has li=
> ttle=20
> > > to do with the actual concept of a stage race.=20
> > >=20
> > > Also, let's face it, most people with TT bikes just get t hem out of th=
> e=20
> > > garage a few times a year when they need them. Thinking of TT as a sepa=
> rate=20
> > > discipline, with its own categories if necessary, would make them more=
> =20
> > > attractive purchases and encourage using them more.=20
> > >=20
> > > And finally, I believe that the perception that time trialing is a=20
> > > subdivision of road racing creates just one more barrier for new cyclis=
> ts=20
> > > entering the sport. E.g., potential racer shows up to watch Mt. Hood=20
> > > Cycling Classic, sees that every racer is dressed like a mutant and rid=
> ing a=20
> > > min. 5k dollar bike, and has no way of relating that to the kind of bik=
> ing=20
> > > he does.=20
> > >=20
> > > Thanks for asking me to clarify that. Now for some beer...=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > Erik wrote:=20
> > >=20
> > > Brian, please tell us that you had a few beers with lu nch an d THEN wr=
> ote=20
> > > that.=20
> > > _______________________________________________=20
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> > >=20
> > > _______________________________________________=20
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> > > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org=20
> >=20
> >=20
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