OBRA: OBRA Chat: nutrition

Pat Sagers

2002-01-28

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I don't know enough about it to say. I'm just wondering who's used it and

if it works.

Pat

-----Original Message-----

From: pdr-@CompView.com [mailto:pdr-@CompView.com]

Sent: 28 Jan, 2002 3:13 PM

To: Pat Sagers

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] nutrition

Pat,

Do you think phosphate loading perhaps crosses the line from nutrition to

supplementation?

Peter Drake

-----Original Message-----

From: Pat Sagers [mailto:pat_s-@orcom.com]

Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 3:02 PM

To: 'ob-@topica.com'

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] nutrition

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I was reading in a training book about the use of sodium phosphate several

days before a race. I had never heard of the practice before and wanted to

hear if anyone had used it and if it really had any positive effects on race

day performance.

Thanks

Pat

-----Original Message-----

From: sandy kenny [ mailto:sasha-@aol.com <mailto:sasha-@aol.com> ]

Sent: 24 Jan, 2002 8:48 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] nutrition

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The percent composition of your diet depends on the denominator (total

caloric intake) as well as the numerator (say, fat intake). Hitting a 20-25%

target for fat intake is more important if you are eating close to the

"normal" RDA of energy (kilocalories). 20% of 2500 is 500 kcal or about

55-60 grams of fat per day, of which the experts say no more than 20 should

be saturated fats. Fats are needed for cell synthesis, tissue maintenance,

and hormone balance.

If you're working out strenuously and trying to maintain muscle mass and

glycogen stores, you will need more food than that. If you add protein

(muscle mass) and carbohydrate (glycogen) to your diet, your denominator

increases, but the numerator stays about the same, so the % of fat in your

diet decreases. Some added fat will "sneak" in on the extra buttered bread,

olive oil'd pasta,nuts, or meats, of course. But, if you're concentrating on

high-quality chow, and eating above the RDA for total energy, it's probably

okay to go lower in fat as a total % of your diet by adding mainly carbs and

protein to an otherwise balanced diet.

Exercise, espceially long-term endurance exercise, blunts the insulin

response to simple carbohydrate. Many top ultraendurance cyclists ride for

24-48 hours supplemented mainly by gummy worms and flat Coke. I think this

sounds yukky, but on the other hand my gotta-have emergency fuel is York

Peppermint Patties. I don't see a lot of complex carbs there!

The blunting effect works best if you have been exercising for an hour or

more BEFORE you ingest the carbs.

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<DIV>I

don't know enough about it to say. I'm just wondering who's used it and if

it works.</DIV>

<DIV>Pat</DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left>-----Original Message----- From: pdr-@CompView.com

[mailto:pdr-@CompView.com] Sent: 28 Jan, 2002 3:13

PM To: Pat Sagers Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat]

nutrition </DIV>

<DIV>Pat,</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Do

you think phosphate loading perhaps crosses the line from nutrition to

supplementation?</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Peter Drake</DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

 <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left>-----Original Message----- From: Pat Sagers

 [mailto:pat_s-@orcom.com] Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 3:02

 PM To: 'ob-@topica.com' Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat]

 nutrition </DIV><PRE>============================================================

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 I was reading in a training book about the use of sodium

 phosphate several days before a race. I had never heard of the

 practice before and wanted to hear if anyone had used it and if it really

 had any positive effects on race day performance.

 Thanks Pat 

 -----Original Message----- From:

 sandy kenny [<A

 href="mailto:sasha-@aol.com">mailto:sasha-@aol.com</A>]

 Sent: 24 Jan, 2002 8:48 AM To:

 ob-@topica.com Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat]

 nutrition 

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 The percent composition of your diet depends on the

 denominator (total caloric intake) as well as the numerator (say, fat

 intake). Hitting a 20-25% target for fat intake is more important if you are

 eating close to the "normal" RDA of energy (kilocalories). 20% of 2500 is

 500 kcal or about 55-60 grams of fat per day, of which the experts say no

 more than 20 should be saturated fats. Fats are needed for cell synthesis,

 tissue maintenance, and hormone balance. 

 If you're working out strenuously and trying to maintain

 muscle mass and glycogen stores, you will need more food than that. If you

 add protein (muscle mass) and carbohydrate (glycogen) to your diet, your

 denominator increases, but the numerator stays about the same, so the % of

 fat in your diet decreases. Some added fat will "sneak" in on the extra

 buttered bread, olive oil'd pasta,nuts, or meats, of course. But, if you're

 concentrating on high-quality chow, and eating above the RDA for total

 energy, it's probably okay to go lower in fat as a total % of your diet by

 adding mainly carbs and protein to an otherwise balanced diet.

 Exercise, espceially long-term endurance exercise, blunts

 the insulin response to simple carbohydrate. Many top ultraendurance

 cyclists ride for 24-48 hours supplemented mainly by gummy worms and flat

 Coke. I think this sounds yukky, but on the other hand my gotta-have

 emergency fuel is York Peppermint Patties. I don't see a lot of complex

 carbs there! 

 The blunting effect works best if you have been exercising

 for an hour or more BEFORE you ingest the carbs. 

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Pat Sagers

2002-01-28

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I was reading in a training book about the use of sodium phosphate several

days before a race. I had never heard of the practice before and wanted to

hear if anyone had used it and if it really had any positive effects on race

day performance.

Thanks

Pat

-----Original Message-----

From: sandy kenny [mailto:sasha-@aol.com]

Sent: 24 Jan, 2002 8:48 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] nutrition

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The percent composition of your diet depends on the denominator (total

caloric intake) as well as the numerator (say, fat intake). Hitting a 20-25%

target for fat intake is more important if you are eating close to the

"normal" RDA of energy (kilocalories). 20% of 2500 is 500 kcal or about

55-60 grams of fat per day, of which the experts say no more than 20 should

be saturated fats. Fats are needed for cell synthesis, tissue maintenance,

and hormone balance.

If you're working out strenuously and trying to maintain muscle mass and

glycogen stores, you will need more food than that. If you add protein

(muscle mass) and carbohydrate (glycogen) to your diet, your denominator

increases, but the numerator stays about the same, so the % of fat in your

diet decreases. Some added fat will "sneak" in on the extra buttered bread,

olive oil'd pasta,nuts, or meats, of course. But, if you're concentrating on

high-quality chow, and eating above the RDA for total energy, it's probably

okay to go lower in fat as a total % of your diet by adding mainly carbs and

protein to an otherwise balanced diet.

Exercise, espceially long-term endurance exercise, blunts the insulin

response to simple carbohydrate. Many top ultraendurance cyclists ride for

24-48 hours supplemented mainly by gummy worms and flat Coke. I think this

sounds yukky, but on the other hand my gotta-have emergency fuel is York

Peppermint Patties. I don't see a lot of complex carbs there!

The blunting effect works best if you have been exercising for an hour or

more BEFORE you ingest the carbs.

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I was reading in a training book about the use of sodium phosphate several days before a race. I had never heard of the practice before and wanted to hear if anyone had used it and if it really had any positive effects on race day performance.

Thanks

 Pat



-----Original Message-----

 From: sandy kenny [<A HREF="mailto:sasha-@aol.com">mailto:sasha-@aol.com</A>]

 Sent: 24 Jan, 2002 8:48 AM

 To: ob-@topica.com

 Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] nutrition



 

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The percent composition of your diet depends on the denominator (total caloric intake) as well as the numerator (say, fat intake). Hitting a 20-25% target for fat intake is more important if you are eating close to the "normal" RDA of energy (kilocalories). 20% of 2500 is 500 kcal or about 55-60 grams of fat per day, of which the experts say no more than 20 should be saturated fats. Fats are needed for cell synthesis, tissue maintenance, and hormone balance. 

If you're working out strenuously and trying to maintain muscle mass and glycogen stores, you will need more food than that. If you add protein (muscle mass) and carbohydrate (glycogen) to your diet, your denominator increases, but the numerator stays about the same, so the % of fat in your diet decreases. Some added fat will "sneak" in on the extra buttered bread, olive oil'd pasta,nuts, or meats, of course. But, if you're concentrating on high-quality chow, and eating above the RDA for total energy, it's probably okay to go lower in fat as a total % of your diet by adding mainly carbs and protein to an otherwise balanced diet.

Exercise, espceially long-term endurance exercise, blunts the insulin response to simple carbohydrate. Many top ultraendurance cyclists ride for 24-48 hours supplemented mainly by gummy worms and flat Coke. I think this sounds yukky, but on the other hand my gotta-have emergency fuel is York Peppermint Patties. I don't see a lot of complex carbs there! 

The blunting effect works best if you have been exercising for an hour or more BEFORE you ingest the carbs. 



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eric.k-@kingdesign.com

2002-01-24

whatever!!

thin guy

-----Original Message-----

From: Salvatore Collura [mailto:salco-@hotmail.com]

Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 10:29 AM

To: sasha-@aol.com; ob-@topica.com

Cc: joena-@hotmail.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] nutrition

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I'm tired of all this nutrition BS. Push harder on the pedals than the next

guy, and you will win . . .

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Salvatore Collura

2002-01-24

I'm tired of all this nutrition BS. Push harder on the pedals than the next

guy, and you will win . . .

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Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

sandy kenny

2002-01-24

The percent composition of your diet depends on the denominator (total caloric intake) as well as the numerator (say, fat intake). Hitting a 20-25% target for fat intake is more important if you are eating close to the "normal" RDA of energy (kilocalories). 20% of 2500 is 500 kcal or about 55-60 grams of fat per day, of which the experts say no more than 20 should be saturated fats. Fats are needed for cell synthesis, tissue maintenance, and hormone balance.

If you're working out strenuously and trying to maintain muscle mass and glycogen stores, you will need more food than that. If you add protein (muscle mass) and carbohydrate (glycogen) to your diet, your denominator increases, but the numerator stays about the same, so the % of fat in your diet decreases. Some added fat will "sneak" in on the extra buttered bread, olive oil'd pasta,nuts, or meats, of course. But, if you're concentrating on high-quality chow, and eating above the RDA for total energy, it's probably okay to go lower in fat as a total % of your diet by adding mainly carbs and protein to an otherwise balanced diet.

Exercise, espceially long-term endurance exercise, blunts the insulin response to simple carbohydrate. Many top ultraendurance cyclists ride for 24-48 hours supplemented mainly by gummy worms and flat Coke. I think this sounds yukky, but on the other hand my gotta-have emergency fuel is York Peppermint Patties. I don't see a lot of complex carbs there!

The blunting effect works best if you have been exercising for an hour or more BEFORE you ingest the carbs.

EMia-@aol.com

2002-01-24

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I am a Registered Dietitian.

Optimal nutrient distributions for endurance athletes:

55-60% carb

25-30% fat

1.2-1.5 gr pro/kg body weight

I have never heard of giving x number of carb grams per pound of body weight.

That theory yields far too much carb.

Those "insulin response theories" are not evidence-based and I would use some

caution when evaluating such claims/theories. In obese individuals with Type

2 diabetes, the hallmark of that disease is insulin resistance and I don't

think that's applicable to most of OBRA-land. I would ignore any literature

that discussed that in athletes. Carbs are carbs and eventhough one should

get the bulk from complex carbs (starches), simple carbs (sugars) are also

necessary in the overall blend. Foods that naturally contain sugar as the

type of carb include fruit, milk and vegetables. It's the added "junk"

sugars that get can add up to excessive and non-nutritive amounts and that

have spawned the insulin-response ideas.

Good sources of fat include monounsaturated fats and omega 3 fatty acids:

Mono's are olive oil, canola oil, nuts, seeds and avocado. Omega 3's are

fish, soy, canola, flax fats. Don't under-do fat, it's am important nutrient

just as carb and pro are.

Hope this helps.

Emily Miazga

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<HTML>

I am a Registered Dietitian. 

Optimal nutrient distributions for endurance athletes: 

 

55-60% carb 

25-30% fat 

1.2-1.5 gr pro/kg body weight 

 

I have never heard of giving x number of carb grams per pound of body weight. That theory yields far too much carb. 

 

Those "insulin response theories" are not evidence-based and I would use some caution when evaluating such claims/theories. In obese individuals with Type 2 diabetes, the hallmark of that disease is insulin resistance and I don't think that's applicable to most of OBRA-land. I would ignore any literature that discussed that in athletes. Carbs are carbs and eventhough one should get the bulk from complex carbs (starches), simple carbs (sugars) are also necessary in the overall blend. Foods that naturally contain sugar as the type of carb include fruit, milk and vegetables. It's the added "junk" sugars that get can add up to excessive and non-nutritive amounts and that have spawned the insulin-response ideas. 

 

Good sources of fat include monounsaturated fats and omega 3 fatty acids: 

 

Mono's are olive oil, canola oil, nuts, seeds and avocado. Omega 3's are fish, soy, canola, flax fats. Don't under-do fat, it's am important nutrient just as carb and pro are. 

 

Hope this helps. 

 

Emily Miazga 

</HTML>

--part1_13d.833dbdf.29818689_boundary--

eric.k-@kingdesign.com

2002-01-24

well it only took a couple days to find some errors in my ways.

Mr. Burke actually suggests a ratio of:

60-65% carbohydrates

20-25% fat

~15% protein

the kicker on this is that it is calories he is talking about. when I

relayed what I was generally ingesting (13% fat, 69% carbs, 18% protein) I

had been counting grams....OUCH. I restructered my calorie counter and was

awakened to the truth. I am eating way more fat than I thought. I am glad I

sent that e-mail out!! I also had to change my recover meal menu. the

quantities of food I had formulated were kinda of skewed by the old wrong

system. thank you oBRAs for all the good advice. once again you have helped

me. what is still getting me is eating 3-5 grams of carbs per pound of body

weight. for me that is 525 - 875 grams of carbs a day. that is a lot!!!

-----Original Message-----

From: eric.k-@kingdesign.com [mailto:eric.k-@kingdesign.com]

Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 2:01 PM

To: 'Obra (E-mail)

Subject: [OBRA Chat] nutrition

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ok I am going to the deep end of the pool here...

who counts their daily calorie intake? and what opinions do you small group

have on proportion of fat/carbs/protein. while I am riding a lot I find that

I generally cruise along at

13% fat

69% carbs

18% protein

I seem to have a hard time going for the Burke suggestion of 15% fat 65%

carbs 25% protein. what would be possible drawbacks of my higher carbs lower

fat and protein regimine? why is it that when I try to increase my protein

portion I feel much hungrier (and tend to eat like mad later in the day)?

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shakl-@mindspring.com

2002-01-23

Eric wrote:

and doesn't sir edmund burke claim there is an advantage to jacking up

your

insulin levels within 2 hours after exercise to load your glycogen stores?

he suggest a soda pop after a ride. the increased insulin migrates the

carbs

to the depleted storeage areas. endurox claims to raise your insulin

production.

Eric, "Soda Pop" usually means CocaCola or some other phosphate laden

drink. Phosphates block calcium absorbtion. Caffiene also interferes with

calcium uptake. Since active athletes need at least 2000mg of calcium per

day (not subtracting that which their Coka-Cola blocks) it would be a good

idea to revisit the choice of drink. 100% fruit juice will be more healthy

and have lots of sugars, too. maybe even a vitamin.

A balanced commercial product intended for recovery needs to have some

scientific basis for its existance. Tooting my own horn, I suggest you

look at the Shaklee website for sports products. Ask about the science

first. Shaklee has over 70+ published peer reviewed scientific studies

about human nutritional needs and their products intended to help those

needs. Check the web site. www.shaklee.net/thefullers Check out Physique

for recovery.

Anectodal stories and advertising do not make for good choices.

        Ian Fuller

Science based Shaklee products...100% money back guarantee for over 45

years.

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STEVE GARCIA

2002-01-23

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I like Jim Beam and PBR duing the winter, Gingerale and Vodka in summer, and beef steak as often as I can get it.

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eric.k-@kingdesign.com

2002-01-23

a reasonable amount (1/4 cup or less) of nuts (not peanuts)

parmesan cheese

olive oil when cooking

seed oil on salad (hemp, flax, sesame)

any fish

ham, chicken

eggs

don't eat "partially hydrogenated...anything"

these are simply MY choices.

eric

-----Original Message-----

From: Friton, Mike [mailto:mike.f-@nike.com]

Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 9:29 AM

To: 'gleb-@linuxweasel.com'; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] nutrition

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Could someone at least give a list of food that provide a good source of

fats. I think some fats are better than others but I'm not sure why. This

could be done without giving advise on which is best for a particular

individual to avoid the legal stuff.

Thanks, Mike

-----Original Message-----

From: Gregory Leblanc [mailto:gleb-@linuxweasel.com]

Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 11:04 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] nutrition

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On Tue, 2002-01-22 at 22:42, Erik Voldengen wrote:

So what type of fat are you supposed to eat if you are

not hitting 20-25%? I'm no going to go eat a stick of

butter.

My father had a heart attack in his 50s, and he used to

run many times a week. So I'm assuming I need to be very

careful or the same could happen to me. I really don't

want to have a heart attack when I get older, so I wonder

what I should do.

That's an easy one to answer. Seek the advice of your MD and

nutritionist, as I'm sure there are laws about doctors giving away

medical advice on lists the same as their are for lawyers. That doesn't

sound super helpful, I know, but it's the safest advice one can give.

Greg

--

Portland, Oregon, USA.

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eric.k-@kingdesign.com

2002-01-23

http://www.caloriecountercharts.com/books.htm

for food content

http://www-sci.lib.uci.edu/HSG/RefCalculators.html

for all types of calculators

-----Original Message-----

From: Renata Hahn [mailto:renat-@altavista.com]

Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 8:53 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] nutrition

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On Tue, 22 January 2002, Gregory Leblanc wrote:

============================================================

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============================================================

On Tue, 2002-01-22 at 22:42, Erik Voldengen wrote:

So what type of fat are you supposed to eat if you are

not hitting 20-25%? I'm no going to go eat a stick of

butter.

My father had a heart attack in his 50s, and he used to

run many times a week. So I'm assuming I need to be very

careful or the same could happen to me. I really don't

want to have a heart attack when I get older, so I wonder

what I should do.

That's an easy one to answer. Seek the advice of your MD and

nutritionist, as I'm sure there are laws about doctors giving away

medical advice on lists the same as their are for lawyers. That doesn't

sound super helpful, I know, but it's the safest advice one can give.

Greg

--

Portland, Oregon, USA.

To locate a registered dietician specializing in sports nutrition, try SCAN,

(Sports, Cardiovascular and Wellness Nutritionists) 719-475-7751,

www.nutrifit.org

Also remember almost everything you eat has some fat. Dressing, oils, nuts,

cheese, ice cream, etc. Don't overload on fat, to improve performance

manipulate the training schedule instead. Any excess carbohydrate that is

consumed but not used by the body is stored as fat! So all calories are

important because if you don't use them, they all get stored as fat. There

are formulas out there to determine your calorie needs.

Does anyone have a good source for these formulas to determine calorie

needs, and how about a food chart that lists carbo, protein and fat content

of unpackaged foods such as chicken, fish, etc...? Thanks,

Renata

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pdr-@compview.com

2002-01-23

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As far as I know the unsaturated fats are better, I know there's some stuff

about omega-3, etc. What this boils down to for me is that I use olive oil

whenever I can (not on the chain, silly) and eat plenty of salmon. Sorry I

can't quote the literature on this.

A bunch of my ancestors have died from cardiac problems, but their diets

included a lot of butter. My last checkup was good, so I must be doing

something right. I have noticed that without enough fat nothing seems to

work right.

my $.02,

Peter

-----Original Message-----

From: Friton, Mike [mailto:mike.f-@nike.com]

Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 9:29 AM

To: 'gleb-@linuxweasel.com'; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] nutrition

============================================================

Thinking about selling your home within the next 5 months?

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============================================================

Could someone at least give a list of food that provide a good source of

fats. I think some fats are better than others but I'm not sure why. This

could be done without giving advise on which is best for a particular

individual to avoid the legal stuff.

Thanks, Mike

-----Original Message-----

From: Gregory Leblanc [mailto:gleb-@linuxweasel.com]

Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 11:04 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] nutrition

============================================================

Thinking about selling your home within the next 5 months?

Don't gamble with the biggest transaction of your life!

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============================================================

On Tue, 2002-01-22 at 22:42, Erik Voldengen wrote:

So what type of fat are you supposed to eat if you are

not hitting 20-25%? I'm no going to go eat a stick of

butter.

My father had a heart attack in his 50s, and he used to

run many times a week. So I'm assuming I need to be very

careful or the same could happen to me. I really don't

want to have a heart attack when I get older, so I wonder

what I should do.

That's an easy one to answer. Seek the advice of your MD and

nutritionist, as I'm sure there are laws about doctors giving away

medical advice on lists the same as their are for lawyers. That doesn't

sound super helpful, I know, but it's the safest advice one can give.

Greg

--

Portland, Oregon, USA.

============================================================

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As far as I know the unsaturated fats are better, I know there's some stuff about omega-3, etc. What this boils down to for me is that I use olive oil whenever I can (not on the chain, silly) and eat plenty of salmon. Sorry I can't quote the literature on this. 

A bunch of my ancestors have died from cardiac problems, but their diets included a lot of butter. My last checkup was good, so I must be doing something right. I have noticed that without enough fat nothing seems to work right.

my $.02,



Peter



-----Original Message-----

 From: Friton, Mike [<A HREF="mailto:mike.f-@nike.com">mailto:mike.f-@nike.com</A>]

 Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 9:29 AM

 To: 'gleb-@linuxweasel.com'; ob-@topica.com

 Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] nutrition



 

============================================================

 Thinking about selling your home within the next 5 months?

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 ============================================================



Could someone at least give a list of food that provide a good source of

 fats. I think some fats are better than others but I'm not sure why. This

 could be done without giving advise on which is best for a particular

 individual to avoid the legal stuff.



Thanks, Mike



-----Original Message-----

 From: Gregory Leblanc [<A HREF="mailto:gleb-@linuxweasel.com">mailto:gleb-@linuxweasel.com</A>]

 Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 11:04 PM

 To: ob-@topica.com

 Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] nutrition



 

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 Don't gamble with the biggest transaction of your life!

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 ============================================================



On Tue, 2002-01-22 at 22:42, Erik Voldengen wrote:

 > So what type of fat are you supposed to eat if you are

 > not hitting 20-25%? I'm no going to go eat a stick of

 > butter.

 > 

 > My father had a heart attack in his 50s, and he used to

 > run many times a week. So I'm assuming I need to be very

 > careful or the same could happen to me. I really don't

 > want to have a heart attack when I get older, so I wonder

 > what I should do.



That's an easy one to answer. Seek the advice of your MD and

 nutritionist, as I'm sure there are laws about doctors giving away

 medical advice on lists the same as their are for lawyers. That doesn't

 sound super helpful, I know, but it's the safest advice one can give.

 Greg



-- 

 Portland, Oregon, USA.



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Michael O'Hair

2002-01-23

Let's cut to the chase on this. Go to the American Heart Association's

web site at

http://www.americanheart.org

There is a "search" box at the top of their page. Type in "diet" and

go from there.

-----Original Message-----

From: Friton, Mike [mailto:mike.f-@nike.com]

Could someone at least give a list of food that provide a

good source of

fats. I think some fats are better than others but I'm not

sure why. >

eric.k-@kingdesign.com

2002-01-23

and doesn't sir edmund burke claim there is an advantage to jacking up your

insulin levels within 2 hours after exercise to load your glycogen stores?

he suggest a soda pop after a ride. the increased insulin migrates the carbs

to the depleted storeage areas. endurox claims to raise your insulin

production.

-----Original Message-----

From: Mark Greenwood [mailto:mgree-@tqs.com]

Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 9:37 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] nutrition

============================================================

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============================================================

All I know about nutrition is what I've read for my own purposes, so

somebody correct me if my thoughts on this matter are flawed.

I thought the issue with these "huge insulin response" theories is that

they are all based on what the "average person's" body does. I was

under the impression that someone who does a significant amount of

athletic activity every day tends to metabolize the carbs more or less

immediately and does not exhibit this sharp insulin response to nearly

the extent that a sedentary person does. The insulin spike in sedentary

people is (as I understood it) a mechanism to deal with the fact that

they are consuming excess carbs that their body does not routinely

utilize in the near future. Athlete's bodies on the other hand have

been trained to expect to burn off those carbs as fuel and so their body

isn't as anxious to lower the blood sugar level the way a normally

sedentary person would. Of course, eating pure refined sugar is still

not the thing to do and what you want is complex, unrefined carbs that

your body consumes over a longer period... eating a couple of candy bars

is still probably going to yank your blood sugar level all over the map,

no matter how active you are.

Am I way off-base here? Is there a doctor / nutrition expert in the

house? Just what I have heard is that it's really hard to take these

studies that are done on the "average person" and apply them to very

athletic people because there's such a wide variation in the body's

responses due to training. Of course, it's equally specious to apply

studies done solely on Olympic athletes to most of the population...

Renata Hahn wrote:

I'm no expert, but I'v been reading a lot of books, many contradicting

each other. Dr. Phillip Maffetone would say you are eating way too many

carbs, and your system produces a huge insulin release in the blood

stream, thus causing all your blood sugar to be stored and go too low.

Then your body craves more carbos and sweets....you get very hungry

because your blood sugar has dipped too low. If you have been eating

lots of carbos, your body is used to getting more and more. Take that

away, it craves more. His solution, more protein and fat. He sais eating

too many carbos can prevent a higher percentage of fats from being used

for energy, and lead to an increase in body-fat storage and greatly

diminish performance.

After attending the OBRA convention and listening to the discussion on

nutrition,with Burke and others, I bought Suzanne Girards book,

"Endurance Sports Nutrition". She suggests eating a training diet based

on 3-4gms of carbohydrate per pound of body weight. She goes further

into detail based on how many hours you train. 1 hr, 3grams,

2hrs-4grams, 3hrs-5grams (all per pound of body weight, yes, 60% of

total calories) Protein, 0.55-0.75 grams per pound. (15-20%). Fat, 0.5g

per pound (at least 20%). Then up that 3-4 days prior to an event to

4-5grams of carbos per pound for three days.

You need the Fat to optimize your body to burn it, it's a concentrated

sourceof energy, it releases 9 cal/gram (carbos only 4cals/gram). You

need to train your muscles to burn fat and spare glycogen (stored

carbos) during exercise. Metabolizing fat and carbos requires different

sets of enzymes. Highly trained endurance athletes can use more fat and

less glycogen at the same intensity level as less fit athletes. (Since

you rely on fat as an energy source during long bouts of exercise)

Protein is needed to rebuild muscle tissue, and replace the amino acids

oxidized during exercise. Also during long bouts of exercise," when

glycogen stores run low, protein is used as fuel, and may contribute as

much as 15 % of the energy needed". (from Suzanne's book). So you need

protein to maintain lean muscle tissue, not to break it down as fuel.

Especially after exercise, you need to eat protein and carbos 15-30

minutes after, to rebuild muscle proteins and replenish glycogen stores.

So, the 60-65% carbos, 15-20% protein, 20% fat seems to be the optimal

agreed upon amount. Good luck..

Renata

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Tom Giesen

2002-01-23

<html>

Hi 

I know two things: 

We (endurance athletes) were cautioned for years not to eat simpler carbs

before an exercise bout - a race, for example - on the grounds of

the insulin surge. Studies showed, however that it was so slight as to be

negligible - advice now is to eat carbs pre-event, complex being better,

but all of 'em being good. 

We have been taught that eating complex carbs is always best. But

post-exercise carbs are essential to rebuild glycogen stores in the

muscle cells, and studies show that this replacement can be done with

either simple or complex. Slow release is

NOT an issue - the point is to feed carbs in quickly after exercise, as

they are taken up most readily by the cells then, and it does not matter

if they are pure sugar, save that pure sugar is depauperate in anything

SAVE carbs, including taste. 

Tom Giesen 

 

At 09:36 AM 1/23/2002, you wrote: 

<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>All I know about nutrition is what

I've read for my own purposes, so 

somebody correct me if my thoughts on this matter are flawed. 

I thought the issue with these "huge insulin response" theories

is that 

they are all based on what the "average person's" body

does. I was 

under the impression that someone who does a significant amount of 

athletic activity every day tends to metabolize the carbs more or less

 

immediately and does not exhibit this sharp insulin response to nearly

 

the extent that a sedentary person does. The insulin spike in

sedentary 

people is (as I understood it) a mechanism to deal with the fact that

 

they are consuming excess carbs that their body does not routinely 

utilize in the near future. Athlete's bodies on the other hand have

 

been trained to expect to burn off those carbs as fuel and so their body

 

isn't as anxious to lower the blood sugar level the way a normally 

sedentary person would. Of course, eating pure refined sugar is

still 

not the thing to do and what you want is complex, unrefined carbs that

 

your body consumes over a longer period... eating a couple of candy bars

 

is still probably going to yank your blood sugar level all over the map,

 

no matter how active you are. 

Am I way off-base here? Is there a doctor / nutrition expert in the

 

house? Just what I have heard is that it's really hard to take

these 

studies that are done on the "average person" and apply them to

very 

athletic people because there's such a wide variation in the body's

 

responses due to training. Of course, it's equally specious to

apply 

studies done solely on Olympic athletes to most of the

population... 

Renata Hahn wrote: 

 

I'm no expert, but I'v been reading a lot of books, many

contradicting 

each other. Dr. Phillip Maffetone would say you are eating way too

many 

carbs, and your system produces a huge insulin release in the blood

stream, thus causing all your blood sugar to be stored and go too

low. 

Then your body craves more carbos and sweets....you get very hungry

because your blood sugar has dipped too low. If you have been eating

lots of carbos, your body is used to getting more and more. Take

that 

away, it craves more. His solution, more protein and fat. He sais

eating 

too many carbos can prevent a higher percentage of fats from being

used 

for energy, and lead to an increase in body-fat storage and greatly

diminish performance. 

 

After attending the OBRA convention and listening to the discussion

on 

nutrition,with Burke and others, I bought Suzanne Girards book,

"Endurance Sports Nutrition". She suggests eating a

training diet based 

on 3-4gms of carbohydrate per pound of body weight. She goes further

into detail based on how many hours you train. 1 hr, 3grams, 

2hrs-4grams, 3hrs-5grams (all per pound of body weight, yes, 60% of

total calories) Protein, 0.55-0.75 grams per pound. (15-20%). Fat,

0.5g 

per pound (at least 20%). Then up that 3-4 days prior to an event to

4-5grams of carbos per pound for three days. 

 

You need the Fat to optimize your body to burn it, it's a

concentrated 

sourceof energy, it releases 9 cal/gram (carbos only

4cals/gram). You 

need to train your muscles to burn fat and spare glycogen (stored

carbos) during exercise. Metabolizing fat and carbos requires

different 

sets of enzymes. Highly trained endurance athletes can use more fat

and 

less glycogen at the same intensity level as less fit athletes.

(Since 

you rely on fat as an energy source during long bouts of

exercise) 

 

Protein is needed to rebuild muscle tissue, and replace the amino

acids 

oxidized during exercise. Also during long bouts of exercise,"

when 

glycogen stores run low, protein is used as fuel, and may contribute

as 

much as 15 % of the energy needed". (from Suzanne's book). So

you need 

protein to maintain lean muscle tissue, not to break it down as

fuel. 

Especially after exercise, you need to eat protein and carbos 15-30

minutes after, to rebuild muscle proteins and replenish glycogen

stores. 

So, the 60-65% carbos, 15-20% protein, 20% fat seems to be the

optimal 

agreed upon amount. Good luck.. 

Renata

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</html>

Mark Greenwood

2002-01-23

All I know about nutrition is what I've read for my own purposes, so

somebody correct me if my thoughts on this matter are flawed.

I thought the issue with these "huge insulin response" theories is that

they are all based on what the "average person's" body does. I was

under the impression that someone who does a significant amount of

athletic activity every day tends to metabolize the carbs more or less

immediately and does not exhibit this sharp insulin response to nearly

the extent that a sedentary person does. The insulin spike in sedentary

people is (as I understood it) a mechanism to deal with the fact that

they are consuming excess carbs that their body does not routinely

utilize in the near future. Athlete's bodies on the other hand have

been trained to expect to burn off those carbs as fuel and so their body

isn't as anxious to lower the blood sugar level the way a normally

sedentary person would. Of course, eating pure refined sugar is still

not the thing to do and what you want is complex, unrefined carbs that

your body consumes over a longer period... eating a couple of candy bars

is still probably going to yank your blood sugar level all over the map,

no matter how active you are.

Am I way off-base here? Is there a doctor / nutrition expert in the

house? Just what I have heard is that it's really hard to take these

studies that are done on the "average person" and apply them to very

athletic people because there's such a wide variation in the body's

responses due to training. Of course, it's equally specious to apply

studies done solely on Olympic athletes to most of the population...

Renata Hahn wrote:

I'm no expert, but I'v been reading a lot of books, many contradicting

each other. Dr. Phillip Maffetone would say you are eating way too many

carbs, and your system produces a huge insulin release in the blood

stream, thus causing all your blood sugar to be stored and go too low.

Then your body craves more carbos and sweets....you get very hungry

because your blood sugar has dipped too low. If you have been eating

lots of carbos, your body is used to getting more and more. Take that

away, it craves more. His solution, more protein and fat. He sais eating

too many carbos can prevent a higher percentage of fats from being used

for energy, and lead to an increase in body-fat storage and greatly

diminish performance.

After attending the OBRA convention and listening to the discussion on

nutrition,with Burke and others, I bought Suzanne Girards book,

"Endurance Sports Nutrition". She suggests eating a training diet based

on 3-4gms of carbohydrate per pound of body weight. She goes further

into detail based on how many hours you train. 1 hr, 3grams,

2hrs-4grams, 3hrs-5grams (all per pound of body weight, yes, 60% of

total calories) Protein, 0.55-0.75 grams per pound. (15-20%). Fat, 0.5g

per pound (at least 20%). Then up that 3-4 days prior to an event to

4-5grams of carbos per pound for three days.

You need the Fat to optimize your body to burn it, it's a concentrated

sourceof energy, it releases 9 cal/gram (carbos only 4cals/gram). You

need to train your muscles to burn fat and spare glycogen (stored

carbos) during exercise. Metabolizing fat and carbos requires different

sets of enzymes. Highly trained endurance athletes can use more fat and

less glycogen at the same intensity level as less fit athletes. (Since

you rely on fat as an energy source during long bouts of exercise)

Protein is needed to rebuild muscle tissue, and replace the amino acids

oxidized during exercise. Also during long bouts of exercise," when

glycogen stores run low, protein is used as fuel, and may contribute as

much as 15 % of the energy needed". (from Suzanne's book). So you need

protein to maintain lean muscle tissue, not to break it down as fuel.

Especially after exercise, you need to eat protein and carbos 15-30

minutes after, to rebuild muscle proteins and replenish glycogen stores.

So, the 60-65% carbos, 15-20% protein, 20% fat seems to be the optimal

agreed upon amount. Good luck..

Renata

Friton, Mike

2002-01-23

Could someone at least give a list of food that provide a good source of

fats. I think some fats are better than others but I'm not sure why. This

could be done without giving advise on which is best for a particular

individual to avoid the legal stuff.

Thanks, Mike

-----Original Message-----

From: Gregory Leblanc [mailto:gleb-@linuxweasel.com]

Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 11:04 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] nutrition

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On Tue, 2002-01-22 at 22:42, Erik Voldengen wrote:

So what type of fat are you supposed to eat if you are

not hitting 20-25%? I'm no going to go eat a stick of

butter.

My father had a heart attack in his 50s, and he used to

run many times a week. So I'm assuming I need to be very

careful or the same could happen to me. I really don't

want to have a heart attack when I get older, so I wonder

what I should do.

That's an easy one to answer. Seek the advice of your MD and

nutritionist, as I'm sure there are laws about doctors giving away

medical advice on lists the same as their are for lawyers. That doesn't

sound super helpful, I know, but it's the safest advice one can give.

Greg

--

Portland, Oregon, USA.

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Mark Greenwood

2002-01-23

There was a study done a while back where different groups ate a

breakfast of either:

1. Oatmeal

2. Eggs ("high protein" breakfast)

3. Typical dry cereal (non-oatmeal) breakfast

and then participated in athletic activity that morning (running or

cycling or maybe both, I can't remember). The upshot was that the

oatmeal breakfast group had significantly longer lasting energy reserves

than the other groups (like you said, complex unrefined carbs absorbed

over a longer period of time). For what it's worth, I don't remember

all the details...

T. Field wrote:

Just a guess here, but you are probably increasing the protein at the

expense of the fat. Meals that are absorbed quickly (high glycemic

index),

usually leave you hungry a short time later. An example would be a bowl

of

oatmeal for breakfast vs the same carb amt as cornflakes. The oatmeal

will

stick with you much longer.

Renata Hahn

2002-01-23

On Tue, 22 January 2002, Gregory Leblanc wrote:

============================================================

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Don't gamble with the biggest transaction of your life!

Use HomeGain?s free service to find & compare local

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============================================================

On Tue, 2002-01-22 at 22:42, Erik Voldengen wrote:

So what type of fat are you supposed to eat if you are

not hitting 20-25%? I'm no going to go eat a stick of

butter.

My father had a heart attack in his 50s, and he used to

run many times a week. So I'm assuming I need to be very

careful or the same could happen to me. I really don't

want to have a heart attack when I get older, so I wonder

what I should do.

That's an easy one to answer. Seek the advice of your MD and

nutritionist, as I'm sure there are laws about doctors giving away

medical advice on lists the same as their are for lawyers. That doesn't

sound super helpful, I know, but it's the safest advice one can give.

Greg

--

Portland, Oregon, USA.

To locate a registered dietician specializing in sports nutrition, try SCAN, (Sports, Cardiovascular and Wellness Nutritionists) 719-475-7751, www.nutrifit.org

Also remember almost everything you eat has some fat. Dressing, oils, nuts, cheese, ice cream, etc. Don't overload on fat, to improve performance manipulate the training schedule instead. Any excess carbohydrate that is consumed but not used by the body is stored as fat! So all calories are important because if you don't use them, they all get stored as fat. There are formulas out there to determine your calorie needs.

Does anyone have a good source for these formulas to determine calorie needs, and how about a food chart that lists carbo, protein and fat content of unpackaged foods such as chicken, fish, etc...? Thanks,

Renata

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Gregory Leblanc

2002-01-22

On Tue, 2002-01-22 at 22:42, Erik Voldengen wrote:

So what type of fat are you supposed to eat if you are

not hitting 20-25%? I'm no going to go eat a stick of

butter.

My father had a heart attack in his 50s, and he used to

run many times a week. So I'm assuming I need to be very

careful or the same could happen to me. I really don't

want to have a heart attack when I get older, so I wonder

what I should do.

That's an easy one to answer. Seek the advice of your MD and

nutritionist, as I'm sure there are laws about doctors giving away

medical advice on lists the same as their are for lawyers. That doesn't

sound super helpful, I know, but it's the safest advice one can give.

Greg

--

Portland, Oregon, USA.

Erik Voldengen

2002-01-22

So what type of fat are you supposed to eat if you are

not hitting 20-25%? I'm no going to go eat a stick of

butter.

My father had a heart attack in his 50s, and he used to

run many times a week. So I'm assuming I need to be very

careful or the same could happen to me. I really don't

want to have a heart attack when I get older, so I wonder

what I should do.

-Erik

-----Original Message-----

From: Renata Hahn [mailto:renat-@altavista.com]

Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 10:28 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] nutrition

============================================================

Thinking about selling your home within the next 5 months?

Don't gamble with the biggest transaction of your life!

Use HomeGain?s free service to find & compare local

Realtors?.

http://click.topica.com/caaafvYaVxiDpa2ldLTa/HomeGain

============================================================

I'm no expert, but I'v been reading a lot of books, many

contradicting each other. Dr. Phillip Maffetone would say you are

eating way too many carbs, and your system produces a huge

insulin release in the blood stream, thus causing all your blood

sugar to be stored and go too low. Then your body craves more

carbos and sweets....you get very hungry because your blood sugar

has dipped too low. If you have been eating lots of carbos, your

body is used to getting more and more. Take that away, it craves

more. His solution, more protein and fat. He sais eating too many

carbos can prevent a higher percentage of fats from being used

for energy, and lead to an increase in body-fat storage and

greatly diminish performance.

After attending the OBRA convention and listening to the

discussion on nutrition,with Burke and others, I bought Suzanne

Girards book, "Endurance Sports Nutrition". She suggests eating a

training diet based on 3-4gms of carbohydrate per pound of body

weight. She goes further into detail based on how many hours you

train. 1 hr, 3grams, 2hrs-4grams, 3hrs-5grams (all per pound of

body weight, yes, 60% of total calories) Protein, 0.55-0.75 grams

per pound. (15-20%). Fat, 0.5g per pound (at least 20%). Then up

that 3-4 days prior to an event to 4-5grams of carbos per pound

for three days.

You need the Fat to optimize your body to burn it, it's a

concentrated sourceof energy, it releases 9 cal/gram (carbos

only 4cals/gram). You need to train your muscles to burn fat and

spare glycogen (stored carbos) during exercise. Metabolizing fat

and carbos requires different sets of enzymes. Highly trained

endurance athletes can use more fat and less glycogen at the same

intensity level as less fit athletes. (Since you rely on fat as

an energy source during long bouts of exercise)

Protein is needed to rebuild muscle tissue, and replace the amino

acids oxidized during exercise. Also during long bouts of

exercise," when glycogen stores run low, protein is used as fuel,

and may contribute as much as 15 % of the energy needed". (from

Suzanne's book). So you need protein to maintain lean muscle

tissue, not to break it down as fuel. Especially after exercise,

you need to eat protein and carbos 15-30 minutes after, to

rebuild muscle proteins and replenish glycogen stores. So, the

60-65% carbos, 15-20% protein, 20% fat seems to be the optimal

agreed upon amount. Good luck..

Renata

On Tue, 22 January 2002, eric.k-@kingdesign.com wrote:

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ok I am going to the deep end of the pool here?

who counts their daily calorie intake? and what opinions do you

small group

have on proportion of fat/carbs/protein. while I am riding a

lot I find that

I generally cruise along at

13% fat

69% carbs

18% protein

I seem to have a hard time going for the Burke suggestion of

15% fat 65%

carbs 25% protein. what would be possible drawbacks of my

higher carbs lower

fat and protein regimine? why is it that when I try to increase

my protein

portion I feel much hungrier (and tend to eat like mad later in

the day)?

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============================================================

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Renata Hahn

2002-01-22

I'm no expert, but I'v been reading a lot of books, many contradicting each other. Dr. Phillip Maffetone would say you are eating way too many carbs, and your system produces a huge insulin release in the blood stream, thus causing all your blood sugar to be stored and go too low. Then your body craves more carbos and sweets....you get very hungry because your blood sugar has dipped too low. If you have been eating lots of carbos, your body is used to getting more and more. Take that away, it craves more. His solution, more protein and fat. He sais eating too many carbos can prevent a higher percentage of fats from being used for energy, and lead to an increase in body-fat storage and greatly diminish performance.

After attending the OBRA convention and listening to the discussion on nutrition,with Burke and others, I bought Suzanne Girards book, "Endurance Sports Nutrition". She suggests eating a training diet based on 3-4gms of carbohydrate per pound of body weight. She goes further into detail based on how many hours you train. 1 hr, 3grams, 2hrs-4grams, 3hrs-5grams (all per pound of body weight, yes, 60% of total calories) Protein, 0.55-0.75 grams per pound. (15-20%). Fat, 0.5g per pound (at least 20%). Then up that 3-4 days prior to an event to 4-5grams of carbos per pound for three days.

You need the Fat to optimize your body to burn it, it's a concentrated sourceof energy, it releases 9 cal/gram (carbos only 4cals/gram). You need to train your muscles to burn fat and spare glycogen (stored carbos) during exercise. Metabolizing fat and carbos requires different sets of enzymes. Highly trained endurance athletes can use more fat and less glycogen at the same intensity level as less fit athletes. (Since you rely on fat as an energy source during long bouts of exercise)

Protein is needed to rebuild muscle tissue, and replace the amino acids oxidized during exercise. Also during long bouts of exercise," when glycogen stores run low, protein is used as fuel, and may contribute as much as 15 % of the energy needed". (from Suzanne's book). So you need protein to maintain lean muscle tissue, not to break it down as fuel. Especially after exercise, you need to eat protein and carbos 15-30 minutes after, to rebuild muscle proteins and replenish glycogen stores. So, the 60-65% carbos, 15-20% protein, 20% fat seems to be the optimal agreed upon amount. Good luck..

Renata

On Tue, 22 January 2002, eric.k-@kingdesign.com wrote:

============================================================

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============================================================

ok I am going to the deep end of the pool here?

who counts their daily calorie intake? and what opinions do you small group

have on proportion of fat/carbs/protein. while I am riding a lot I find that

I generally cruise along at

13% fat

69% carbs

18% protein

I seem to have a hard time going for the Burke suggestion of 15% fat 65%

carbs 25% protein. what would be possible drawbacks of my higher carbs lower

fat and protein regimine? why is it that when I try to increase my protein

portion I feel much hungrier (and tend to eat like mad later in the day)?

============================================================

MONITOR UNIVERSITY: WHAT I.T. MANAGERS SHOULD KNOW

~ Evaluating ~ Specifying ~ Qualifying ~ Supporting

displays. Free for I.T. managers. Click here for the free

Monitor Field Guide.

http://click.topica.com/caaafJwaVxiDpaVIPF9f/MonitorsDirect

============================================================

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

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http://www.shopping.altavista.com

T. Field

2002-01-22

Just a guess here, but you are probably increasing the protein at the

expense of the fat. Meals that are absorbed quickly (high glycemic index),

usually leave you hungry a short time later. An example would be a bowl of

oatmeal for breakfast vs the same carb amt as cornflakes. The oatmeal will

stick with you much longer.

mcc-@pdx.edu

2002-01-22

Quoting eric.k-@kingdesign.com:

why is it that when I try to increase my

protein

portion I feel much hungrier (and tend to eat like mad later in the

day)?

For a short time I did track my diet daily. But, since I tend to eat the same

basic foods each day, once I determined that my diet was adequate for my

activity level I stopped doing it. I can't remember what my carb/protein/fat

breakdown was.

Based on my limited knowledge it could be that the protein doesn't take as long

to digest as the carbs (especially carb sources with high fiber), meaning that

the food will leave your stomach faster and you will feel hungry sooner. From

what I have read recently it sounds like the "experts" are saying that feeling

"full" has everything to do with the volume of food you eat rather than the

amount of energy the food contains. So, eating a cup of lettuce with 50

calories or so will leave you feeling as full as a cup of M&Ms with 1000

calories or so. A great diet related book I picked up recently is called "Eat

Smart, Play Hard" by Liz Applegate. It talks about dietary requirements for

very active people, gives recommendations for meal plans depending on what time

of the day you workout, discusses some of the most important foods to eat, and

also supplements that many athletes may be tempted to take. I learned a lot by

reading this book, and it has really changed the way that I eat and think about

the foods I put into by body.

-Tony

eric.k-@kingdesign.com

2002-01-22

ok I am going to the deep end of the pool here?

who counts their daily calorie intake? and what opinions do you small group

have on proportion of fat/carbs/protein. while I am riding a lot I find that

I generally cruise along at

13% fat

69% carbs

18% protein

I seem to have a hard time going for the Burke suggestion of 15% fat 65%

carbs 25% protein. what would be possible drawbacks of my higher carbs lower

fat and protein regimine? why is it that when I try to increase my protein

portion I feel much hungrier (and tend to eat like mad later in the day)?