Ormerod, Gilbert

Explain, please.

0.3 sounds huge when you consider that the normal range for arterial pH is 7.35 to 7.45.

I'm sure you're talking about something different, but could you expand a bit to include blood pH?

Gil

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org on behalf of Mike Murray
Sent: Sun 3/15/2009 4:19 PM
To: nellegreen@earthlink.net; 'J.Michael Manning'
Cc: obra@list.obra.org; shosmer@hpchiro.com
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] bone density loss

I have to stick in a full on geek statement on this subject;

Although I agree with Ellen that total body acid content is minimally
effected by diet due to respiratory regulation the idea that acid/base
balance is more tightly controlled than other physiologic parameters is a
misconception created by the fact that pH, like the Richter scale for
earthquakes, is a logarithmic scale; i.e. large changes in acid or base
content change the pH only a small amount. Doubling the amount of acid in a
solution will only change the pH by about 0.3.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Ellen Michaelson
Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 14:43 PM
To: J.Michael Manning
Cc: obra@list.obra.org; shosmer@hpchiro.com
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] bone density loss

To comment on a few things--I don't know where the data comes from that
says Americans eat more dairy than any other nation. Most of my
patients do not consume much if any milk. Many eat cheese but that's
about it. There are many reasons for osteoporosis. One is Vit D
deficiency as I mentioned previously. Inactivity may be even more
significant. Bones are active biological substances and need to be
stressed to stay strong. Many people I see in the office(and probably
more in a more typical internist's practice) are over wt if not obese
and do no exercise at all. A woman in her early 30s asked me to check
her Vit D recently. I was surprised to find it was low! I check Vit D
levels on menopausal women all the time but not usually on younger
people. It made me wonder if I should check all my patients.
The other issue is that of pH. The body is quite astounding in its
capacity to regulate itself. Blood pH, for instance, is regulated
within a very narrow range. Just a bit too high or low can result in
serious
respiratory and cardiac compromise. So I would be cautious in thinking
that we can manipulate body pH in any significant way by what we eat.
I'm open to reading supporting literature but there is a lot out of
information out there on nutrition that is not based in science.

Ellen Michaelson, MD
PS. I have an excellent list of various OTC sources of calcium.

J.Michael Manning wrote:
>
> I think we have an intelligent and stimulating conversation here that
> affects many more of us than we understand. Calcium insufficiency has
> far reaching effects that can go way beyond simple bone density loss.
> To solve the problem, we must address the cause rather than treat the
> symptoms. Most Americans eat a diet that is acid producing, which can
> lead to leaching of calcium from the bones for the purpose of
> neutralizing muscle acidity. A key piece of the puzzle is the
> interrelatedness of the minerals potassium, magnesium, and manganese
> in maintaining pH balance. Your body has specific homeostatic
> regulators that keep everything working and in balance. pH is but
> one--though a most important one. Simply stated, bone loss is directly
> related to the body's self regulating mechanism for maintaining
> homeostasis. The crux of the problem appears to be one of acid versus
> alkali. An acid pH is unhealthy and needs to be regulated through
> negative feedback control. So what does that mean? Read on.
>
> First, I do have to take issue with two items.
>
> 1 - /Consuming dairy products as a good source of calcium./ Consider
> that Americans consume more calcium-rich dairy foods than almost every
> other nation, yet we have one of the highest rates of osteoporosis.
> Dairy may be rich in calcium, but most dairy foods also produce an
> acid yield. If we eat foods that create an acidic pH in the body, we
> will deplete our bones of minerals and our muscles of protein.
>
> 2 - /Purchasing generic calcium supplements from the pharmacy./ What a
> waste of money! It may be cheap, but you get what you pay for. Most of
> these are from sources that are poorly assimilated and do not contain
> the cofactors needed for proper utilization. Yes, Vitamin D3 (the
> active form) is absolutely essential, particularly in the Pacific
> Northwest, but so are the three aforementioned minerals. I have
> thoroughly researched this subject and my recommendations for a
> quality supplement and a professional source can be found below.
>
>
>
> Back to the business of pH balance and bone loss.
>
> I think the original question from Michael O'Hair was regarding
> markers regarding free radical generation. and Joel Morrisette
> correctly stated that we should be eating more green leafy vegetables.
> A diet high in protein, whether from dairy or meat tips the scales in
> the direction of acid, whereas the consumption of green leafy
> vegetables not only provides calcium in abundance, but also assists in
> neutralizing blood pH. I think we all can agree that few people eat
> the recommended 5-7 servings of fresh fruit and vegetables daily.
> Doing so would not only promote an alkaline pH, but add important free
> radical fighters (back to the original question). The extreme nature
> of competitive cycling produces even more acid in the muscle and
> blood, causing an even greater imbalance. Maintaining an alkaline pH
> is critical to keeping the entire organism strong and disease resistant.
>
> When the body has an excess of acid that it can't get rid of at the
> moment, the acid will be stored. Where does it get stored? In the
> space around the cells (called the extracellular matrix). What we see
> here is the pH interplay between the blood and the tissues. As more
> acid accumulates in our body, it is ultimately pushed into the cell.
> When it gets pushed into the cell, the first thing it does is displace
> POTASSIUM and then MAGNESIUM and then SODIUM.
>
> These are three critical minerals in our body. The potassium and
> magnesium will leave the body. As potassium leaves it needs phosphate
> and the body will get that from the bone matrix. The bone matrix is
> made up primarily of calcium phosphate, or hydroxyapatite. This
> phosphate works very well to neutralize acidity by combining with the
> potassium which is displaced by the acid buildup. This potassium is
> then removed from the body and the calcium ends up as free calcium in
> the system. What you might not want to do in this case is take more
> calcium supplements that won't be utilized down at the cellular level.
> But a calcium supplement with the correct mixture of other ingredients
> could work wonders. You are not what you eat, you are what you assimilate!
>
> The best source of calcium supplementation I have found is the Calcium
> Complete from the nutraMetrix Corporation. It is combined with all the
> minerals I previously mentioned as well as a few others, including
> vitamin D3. The 750 mg of calcium is from numerous sources for better
> assimilation. It is isotonic capable, meaning it has the same osmotic
> pressure as your body fluids. Say what.
>
> That means that when taken on an empty stomach, it is about 95%
> absorbed within a few minutes, requiring no digestion. And because of
> its high absorption rate, the 750 mg of calcium is more than adequate.
> This is a professional line of products available only through
> licensed health professionals. Dr. Aaron Radspinner of Discover
> Chiropractic in Beaverton sells this product. It can be purchased
> either at his clinic or online at http://dcpdx.nutrametrix.com/ .
>
>
>
> For a more detailed explanation of the pH story:
>
> The pH Nutrition Guide to Acid/Alkaline Balance
>
> http://www.naturalnews.com/Report_acid_alkaline_pH_0.html
>
>
>
> "Athletic Excellence is my Business"
>
>
>
>
> > Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 13:19:09 -0700
> > From: nellegreen@earthlink.net
> > To: shosmer@HPChiro.com
> > CC: obra@list.obra.org
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] bone density loss
> >
> > There are a few other important issues about bone density(BMD) which
> > peaks in our early-mid 30s, and then begins to drop. As a physician
> with
> > many athletic patients and women, I deal with issues of low BMD
> > every day. I have looked at the issue with regard to serious
> > cyclists like most of us in OBRA. A few yrs ago, most of the
> > literature was on elite athletes like Tour riders and they do in
> > fact lose BMD. There is now some data on the likes of us.
> >
> > Many of us are probably not taking in enough Calcium and Vitamin D.
> > The sun acts on the skin to convert inactive Vit D into active Vit
> > D. Without adequate Vit D, we will not absorb the calcium we need to
> > make bone. The osteoporosis experts say we need 1000 mg Ca/day
> > (1200-1500
> for
> > menopausal women) and 1,000 units/day of Vit D 3. Multivitamins only
> > have 400 units Vit D, only`160 mg Ca. There is a lot of Vit D
> deficiency
> > in the NW--I identify it every day in my office. Because many of us
> > are so active, we may need even more Calcium(not clear how much).
> >
> > Weight bearing* and strength training are, as have been noted here,
> very
> > important. But Ca and Vit D are also. Vit D 3 can be bought at any
> > pharmacy--200 tabs costs about ~$12. Calcium can be taken in many
> > forms(including diet--milk, yogurt, cheese--also high in saturated
> > fat so go for the *nonfat/lowfat*). Calcium often comes alone or
> > with Vit D(200-400 units). The RDA for Vit D has been 400 units for
> > yrs. All the experts say it should be 1,000 units but the politics
> > of the food industry haven't made the change as yet.
> >
> > *Most runners I see have excellent BMD so it's not clear to me that
> > running doesn't help the spine. BMD measurements are taken at both
> > the spine and the hip.
> >
> > Ellen Michaelson, MD
> >
> >
> > Seth Hosmer wrote:
> > > Your bones, like all structures in the body, are dynamic. They
> respond to the conditions placed on them, and adapt accordingly. Bone
> density loss occurs in the general population when there is not
> adequate stress on the musculoskeletal system. There are also
> nutritional (e.g. Vitamin D deficiency) and disease states that
> contribute to bone density loss.
> > >
> > > The stresses that most effectively maintain bone density are
> compressive and bending forces, though torsional forces can also
> contribute. Any activity that provides these types of forces of
> adequate magnitude will maintain bone density.
> > >
> > > There are different types of bone in the body. Your femur, for
> example, is primarily cortical (compact) bone. This type of bone does
> not respond as quickly to loading (or lack of loading) as the other
> type of bone, which is cancellous (spongy) bone...found in places like
> the spine.
> > >
> > > If you want to maintain your bone mass, you must have
> weight-bearing of adequate magnitude in the upper and lower body.
> Running etc would be good for leg bone mass, but does not help spinal
> bone mass. For that, you would have to do something like strength
> training.
> > >
> > > Shameless plug - we offer Kettlebell classes at HPChiro that can
> help you maintain your bone mass and build strength and endurance.
> Kettlebells are an excellent way to strengthen your core and make you
> a "complete" athlete rather than just all heart lungs and legs.
> > >
> > > Back to bone density (mass). Peak bone mass is built by your 20s.
> After that it is largely a race to stop bone loss as it is generally
> accepted that you can't exceed the peak bone mass that you built by
> your 20s. If you are over 30, that makes it even more important to
> maintain.
> > >
> > > Bottom line - like most everything else in your body, use it or
> lose it. If you do not do dynamic weight bearing activity of a certain
> magnitude, your bone mass will gradually decline making you more
> susceptible to fractures. The most effective way to add dynamic and
> adequate-magnitude forces to your bone structure is strength training.
> > >
> > > Seth Hosmer, DC, CSCS
> > > HPChiro.com
> > > blog: http://www.hpchiro.com/blog/
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > OBRA mailing list
> > > obra@list.obra.org http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> > >
> > >
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
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