OBRA: OBRA Chat: Beer and Juniors

Karsten Hagen

2009-11-06

So.....
You put on lycra shorts and a matching jersey, shave your legs, strap a foam and plastic bucket to your head, put on silly goggles, wear ankle socks and run along carrying a perfectly rideable bike on your shoulder.
And you AREN'T IN COSTUME????

Karsten

On Friday, November 06, 2009, at 03:33PM, "david baker" wrote:
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david baker

2009-11-06

Do we have a great opportunity to expose those juniors to bad behavior again this weekend?
Can they learn even more?

---- Original Message -----
From: Luciano bailey
To: max@maxisnow.com ; walkerjim@verizon.net
Cc: zak
Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 11:08 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beer and Juniors

Next we¨ll ask the next tour podiums not to shake and spray and at times guzzle that champagne I thought this started with a few juniors exposed to the less than responsinle behavior of a raucous fans celebrating a costume event ,no different than a Seahawk game parents now how have an opportunity to let there kids see that bad behavior and learn from it.

> From: max@maxisnow.com
> To: walkerjim@verizon.net
> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 18:06:43 -0800
> CC: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beer and Juniors
>
> I heard a very well known Portland cycling figure was stone sober,
> spraying everyone in the face with water.
>
> I call for a ban on water at all races.
>
> Hurumph hurumph hurumph.
>
> Max Kirchoff
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone...
>
> On Nov 5, 2009, at 5:24 PM, Jim Walker wrote:
>
> > The challenge with alcohol is the problem conduct it can result in.
> >
> > This is another example of the behavior of a few affecting the
> > majority. However, it is totally unacceptable to have even a single
> > incident where athletes (or anyone else) are being assaulted with
> > flying objects and spit on by people with possible unknown
> > communicable diseases.
> >
> > The questions are:
> > Can you control the behavior of jerks that drink?
> > Is it really worth it to have their criminal behavior limit future
> > opportunities for cycling?
> >
> > The problem isn’t OBRA, but it is the responsibility of the race pro
> > moters and OBRA to attempt to prevent these actions from occurring a
> > gain. It is clearly now an issue and failure to act would be viewed
> > as obvious negligence by the organizing parties if an unfortunate ev
> > ent were to occur in the future.
> >
> > I vote for sober cycling events. It is safer and more enjoyable for
> > those on the course and on the road back home.
> >
> > I wouldn’t think of it as being anal. I would process it more as hav
> > ing respect and pride for my sport and wanting to prevent someone fr
> > om suffering a serious injury or disease.
> >
> > Jim
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]
> > On Behalf Of Luciano bailey
> > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 4:15 PM
> > To: mike murray; zak
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beer and Juniors
> >
> > When did the US become so anal. go down under or to any of the euro
> > set where alcohol is part of the culture this is a non issue. Don´t
> > get me wrong I TOTALLY feel the OBRA points made by Mike I would fee
> > l the same if the liability was mine. Lets not forget or pretend tha
> > t spectators and racers alike have not been drinking at races for a
> > century .it has always been part of the atmosphere. By the way I don
> > ´t drink.
> >
> >
> > From: mike.murray@obra.org
> > To: obra@list.obra.org
> > Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 08:39:24 -0800
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beer and Juniors
> > This is incorrect. There have been episodes of minors trying to get
> > beer at races. I am sure some have been successful. The events of
> > last weekend showed that the presence of (supposedly) responsible
> > adults was not terribly protective against bad behavior. Excessive
> > enforcement may drive underage drinking underground but having
> > underage people obtain alcohol at races puts the entire organization
> > at risk. I am more concerned about the possibility of legal
> > problems than I am worried that some kids might drink. In addition,
> > the possibility of injury related to alcohol use (drunk driving,
> > riding, throwing of items at riders, etc.) creates liability risk
> > for the whole organization. Last weekend was a sentinel event. We
> > need to clean up the show.
> >
> > Mike Murray
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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Jess Mace

2009-11-06

Do you see how this (however contrived): “The beer tossing situation in Astoria, for better of worse, is a product of the number of dry venues on the calendar as well as the general feeling of "dress up or get the smack down".

May lead to your disappointment if the behavior of some does not change? For better or worse, the managers/owners/proprietors of these venues grant permits each year for these races….they also often attend races….and we often never know who they are or what they look like…but if they don’t like what they see they have the option to change their mind about future permits. It could take as little as one phone call from an irate parent to the correct person. Think about it. How’s not racing at all sound?

The complaints of some may even lead you to believe it is something not all that enjoyable to experience…no matter how much the tossers liked tossing.

Jess Mace, MPH, CCRP
Clinical Outcomes Research - Oregon Sinus Center
Department of Otolaryngology - Head and Neck Surgery
Oregon Health & Science University
503.494.5886

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Matthew Case
Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 10:10 AM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beer and Juniors

Lots of good points on all sides here. I personally would be very disappointed if 'Cross became a dry sport, it's the last of the disciplines that have a festival atmosphere and it would be sad to see it go away.

The beer tossing situation in Astoria, for better of worse, is a product of the number of dry venues on the calendar as well as the general feeling of "dress up or get the smack down". That being said, I think it's completely unreasonable to throw any object at anyone on a bike, ever. It's ridiculous to subject Juniors to beer throwing at all, they're kids, not adults, and I strongly censure anyone causing any of those kids grief. It's also disgusting to spit anything at a racer, the communicable disease issue is a real one, made even more real by the H1N1 situation right now.

In conclusion, beer at races can be reasonable and fun. Throwing objects is BS, verbally and physically abusing Juniors is BS, spitting is disgusting and BS. Beer throwing is generally saved for non-costumed racers at Astoria and most anyone doing that race should have recognized that. For now, let's just drink the beer, yell and cheer, race without fear, for the rest of the year. Thanks folks.

Matt Case
On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 9:13 AM, Jim Walker > wrote:
I think it is important to be good to my children.

Someday they will be picking out the Nursing Home I go into.

Jim

11/05/2009 10:58 PM
>From Aaron Coker >
I don't know what the big deal is. I get drunk and spit on my kids all the time in the comfort of my own home.
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Luciano bailey

2009-11-06

Next we¨ll ask the next tour podiums not to shake and spray and at times guzzle that champagne I thought this started with a few juniors exposed to the less than responsinle behavior of a raucous fans celebrating a costume event ,no different than a Seahawk game parents now how have an opportunity to let there kids see that bad behavior and learn from it.

> From: max@maxisnow.com
> To: walkerjim@verizon.net
> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 18:06:43 -0800
> CC: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beer and Juniors
>
> I heard a very well known Portland cycling figure was stone sober,
> spraying everyone in the face with water.
>
> I call for a ban on water at all races.
>
> Hurumph hurumph hurumph.
>
> Max Kirchoff
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone...
>
> On Nov 5, 2009, at 5:24 PM, Jim Walker wrote:
>
> > The challenge with alcohol is the problem conduct it can result in.
> >
> > This is another example of the behavior of a few affecting the
> > majority. However, it is totally unacceptable to have even a single
> > incident where athletes (or anyone else) are being assaulted with
> > flying objects and spit on by people with possible unknown
> > communicable diseases.
> >
> > The questions are:
> > Can you control the behavior of jerks that drink?
> > Is it really worth it to have their criminal behavior limit future
> > opportunities for cycling?
> >
> > The problem isn’t OBRA, but it is the responsibility of the race pro
> > moters and OBRA to attempt to prevent these actions from occurring a
> > gain. It is clearly now an issue and failure to act would be viewed
> > as obvious negligence by the organizing parties if an unfortunate ev
> > ent were to occur in the future.
> >
> > I vote for sober cycling events. It is safer and more enjoyable for
> > those on the course and on the road back home.
> >
> > I wouldn’t think of it as being anal. I would process it more as hav
> > ing respect and pride for my sport and wanting to prevent someone fr
> > om suffering a serious injury or disease.
> >
> > Jim
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]
> > On Behalf Of Luciano bailey
> > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 4:15 PM
> > To: mike murray; zak
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beer and Juniors
> >
> > When did the US become so anal. go down under or to any of the euro
> > set where alcohol is part of the culture this is a non issue. Don´t
> > get me wrong I TOTALLY feel the OBRA points made by Mike I would fee
> > l the same if the liability was mine. Lets not forget or pretend tha
> > t spectators and racers alike have not been drinking at races for a
> > century .it has always been part of the atmosphere. By the way I don
> > ´t drink.
> >
> >
> > From: mike.murray@obra.org
> > To: obra@list.obra.org
> > Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 08:39:24 -0800
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beer and Juniors
> > This is incorrect. There have been episodes of minors trying to get
> > beer at races. I am sure some have been successful. The events of
> > last weekend showed that the presence of (supposedly) responsible
> > adults was not terribly protective against bad behavior. Excessive
> > enforcement may drive underage drinking underground but having
> > underage people obtain alcohol at races puts the entire organization
> > at risk. I am more concerned about the possibility of legal
> > problems than I am worried that some kids might drink. In addition,
> > the possibility of injury related to alcohol use (drunk driving,
> > riding, throwing of items at riders, etc.) creates liability risk
> > for the whole organization. Last weekend was a sentinel event. We
> > need to clean up the show.
> >
> > Mike Murray
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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john

2009-11-06

And yet we aren't anal enough. Since we are a car-based society, many get
in cars and drive. After a company party, the
recently-from-Europe-employees were absolutly aghast
at how laissez-faire people here are/were about driving after a couple.
Evidently there is ZERO tolerance in most European countries.

Also, the recent cyclist hit and killed.. in north portland. both drivers
that hit the cyclists were DUI.. I know it was like 2 am, but still two
different vehicles, happen to be at a specific location at that specific
time and both driver were dui? Not Anal enough.

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 4:14 PM, Luciano bailey wrote:

> When did the US become so anal. go down under or to any of the euro set
> where alcohol is part of the culture this is a non issue. Don´t get me
> wrong I TOTALLY feel the OBRA points made by Mike I would feel the same if
> the liability was mine. Lets not forget or pretend that spectators and
> racers alike have not been drinking at races for a century .it has always
> been part of the atmosphere. By the way I don´t drink.
>
>
> ------------------------------
> From: mike.murray@obra.org
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 08:39:24 -0800
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beer and Juniors
>
> This is incorrect. There have been episodes of minors trying to get beer
> at races. I am sure some have been successful. The events of last weekend
> showed that the presence of (supposedly) responsible adults was not terribly
> protective against bad behavior. Excessive enforcement may drive underage
> drinking underground but having underage people obtain alcohol at races puts
> the entire organization at risk. I am more concerned about the possibility
> of legal problems than I am worried that some kids might drink. In
> addition, the possibility of injury related to alcohol use (drunk driving,
> riding, throwing of items at riders, etc.) creates liability risk for the
> whole organization. Last weekend was a sentinel event. We need to clean up
> the show.
>
>
>
> Mike Murray
>
>
>
> *From:* obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Mike Kerkmann
>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 04, 2009 00:29 AM
> *To:* obra@list.obra.org; Randy Word
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Beer and Juniors
>
>
>
> I don't know what all the OLCC paranoia is all about. There are enough
> responsible adults around that would self police these kind of events (let
> alone fairs and other crap). How many junior cycle racers show up without a
> parent/guardian figure and would bee line it the keg if given a chance?
> Slimmm I think.
>
> Sorry if I am way off, but I think the over protective nature of our gov is
> just pushing underage drinking underground without the support and education
> that those who are more mature might offer. And no, I am not condoning it,
> I do think that the enforcement is excessive and creates a different set of
> problems.
>
> -Mike
>
> --- On *Tue, 11/3/09, Randy Word * wrote:
>
>
> From: Randy Word
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Beer and Juniors
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Date: Tuesday, November 3, 2009, 9:59 PM
>
> Juniors and a ride through beer garden this Saturday? I'm sure that along
> with beer cans thrown in the face, spitting, and swearing will make every
> parent want to get their kids involved in bike racing. Thank you to those
> who recognized the issue last weekend and are putting a stop to it, but
> promoting and glorifying alcohol along with bike races is part of the
> problem and it certainly doesn't help with the goal of Junior development in
> the sport. Beer parties are fine if that's your thing, but they should be
> separate, not a glorified part of sanctioned races.
> Randy
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
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Joe Cipale

2009-11-06

A question for all - Cross and non-cross alike:
"How old are we?"

Joe

Scott Jones wrote:

> "Beer throwing is generally saved for non-costumed racers at Astoria *and
> most anyone doing that race should have recognized that.*"
>
> I'm not really sure what point you are trying to make here Matt. It seems
> you are assuming that everyone should know that this is a practice held at
> the Astoria race every year. I've officiated this race twice and never heard
> of this issue. Even though you make a great point, "Throwing objects is BS,
> verbally and physically abusing Juniors is BS, spitting is disgusting and
> BS.", and a not so great one...."is a product of the number of dry venues on
> the calendar." Your argument makes no sense. A couple of questions for you,
> since it seems you think new racers should know the unwritten rules of
> cross. Where is that explained where on the flyer? Was that announced at the
> start of the race?
>
> Beer and cross go together in Oregon, I understand that, but saying that
> getting overly intoxicated and people did at Astoria is because some venues
> are dry is dumb. Like others have said, racers should not be riding and
> drinking, fans should be respectful and not throw things, spit, etc. Ring
> your bell, scream, enjoy the races, and have a good time, but if you have to
> do it drunk to have a "good time", then is this really the venue for you?
>
> -Scott Jones
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 10:10 AM, Matthew Case wrote:
>
> > Lots of good points on all sides here. I personally would be very
> > disappointed if 'Cross became a dry sport, it's the last of the disciplines
> > that have a festival atmosphere and it would be sad to see it go away.
> >
> > The beer tossing situation in Astoria, for better of worse, is a product of
> > the number of dry venues on the calendar as well as the general feeling of
> > "dress up or get the smack down". That being said, I think it's completely
> > unreasonable to throw any object at anyone on a bike, ever. It's ridiculous
> > to subject Juniors to beer throwing at all, they're kids, not adults, and I
> > strongly censure anyone causing any of those kids grief. It's also
> > disgusting to spit anything at a racer, the communicable disease issue is a
> > real one, made even more real by the H1N1 situation right now.
> >
> > In conclusion, beer at races can be reasonable and fun. Throwing objects
> > is BS, verbally and physically abusing Juniors is BS, spitting is disgusting
> > and BS. Beer throwing is generally saved for non-costumed racers at Astoria
> > and most anyone doing that race should have recognized that. For now, let's
> > just drink the beer, yell and cheer, race without fear, for the rest of the
> > year. Thanks folks.
> >
> > Matt Case
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 9:13 AM, Jim Walker wrote:
> >
> >> I think it is important to be good to my children.
> >>
> >> Someday they will be picking out the Nursing Home I go into.
> >>
> >> Jim
> >>
> >>
> >> 11/05/2009 10:58 PM
> >> >From Aaron Coker
> >> I don't know what the big deal is. I get drunk and spit on my kids all the
> >> time in the comfort of my own home.
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> OBRA mailing list
> >> obra@list.obra.org
> >> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >

Fergus

2009-11-06

Alt-frat?

On Nov 6, 2009, at 10:10 AM, Matthew Case wrote:

> Lots of good points on all sides here. I personally would be very
> disappointed if 'Cross became a dry sport, it's the last of the
> disciplines that have a festival atmosphere and it would be sad to
> see it go away.
>
> The beer tossing situation in Astoria, for better of worse, is a
> product of the number of dry venues on the calendar as well as the
> general feeling of "dress up or get the smack down". That being
> said, I think it's completely unreasonable to throw any object at
> anyone on a bike, ever. It's ridiculous to subject Juniors to beer
> throwing at all, they're kids, not adults, and I strongly censure
> anyone causing any of those kids grief. It's also disgusting to
> spit anything at a racer, the communicable disease issue is a real
> one, made even more real by the H1N1 situation right now.
>
> In conclusion, beer at races can be reasonable and fun. Throwing
> objects is BS, verbally and physically abusing Juniors is BS,
> spitting is disgusting and BS. Beer throwing is generally saved for
> non-costumed racers at Astoria and most anyone doing that race
> should have recognized that. For now, let's just drink the beer,
> yell and cheer, race without fear, for the rest of the year. Thanks
> folks.
>
> Matt Case
>
> On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 9:13 AM, Jim Walker
> wrote:
> I think it is important to be good to my children.
>
> Someday they will be picking out the Nursing Home I go into.
>
> Jim
>
>
> 11/05/2009 10:58 PM
> >From Aaron Coker
> I don't know what the big deal is. I get drunk and spit on my kids
> all the time in the comfort of my own home.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Evan Plews

2009-11-06

Wow "beer tossing... is a product of the number of dry venues on the calendar"??? Now we can blame being a drunk jackass on dry venues.

"Beer throwing is generally saved for non-costumed racers at Astoria and most anyone doing that race should have recognized that"... That is good to know. I didn't go this year and won't be back!

BTW throwing ANY object at ANYONE is assault if it can hurt them. Let me know when you are in court because I am interested to hear the outcome of your primary defense.

Evan Plews
www.evanplews.com
503-949-4879

Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 10:10:02 -0800
From: lug.junkie@gmail.com
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beer and Juniors

Lots of good points on all sides here. I personally would be very disappointed if 'Cross became a dry sport, it's the last of the disciplines that have a festival atmosphere and it would be sad to see it go away.

The beer tossing situation in Astoria, for better of worse, is a product of the number of dry venues on the calendar as well as the general feeling of "dress up or get the smack down". That being said, I think it's completely unreasonable to throw any object at anyone on a bike, ever. It's ridiculous to subject Juniors to beer throwing at all, they're kids, not adults, and I strongly censure anyone causing any of those kids grief. It's also disgusting to spit anything at a racer, the communicable disease issue is a real one, made even more real by the H1N1 situation right now.

In conclusion, beer at races can be reasonable and fun. Throwing objects is BS, verbally and physically abusing Juniors is BS, spitting is disgusting and BS. Beer throwing is generally saved for non-costumed racers at Astoria and most anyone doing that race should have recognized that. For now, let's just drink the beer, yell and cheer, race without fear, for the rest of the year. Thanks folks.

Matt Case

On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 9:13 AM, Jim Walker wrote:

I think it is important to be good to my children.

Someday they will be picking out the Nursing Home I go into.

Jim

11/05/2009 10:58 PM
>From Aaron Coker

I don't know what the big deal is. I get drunk and spit on my kids all the time in the comfort of my own home.
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Scott Jones

2009-11-06

"Beer throwing is generally saved for non-costumed racers at Astoria *and
most anyone doing that race should have recognized that.*"

I'm not really sure what point you are trying to make here Matt. It seems
you are assuming that everyone should know that this is a practice held at
the Astoria race every year. I've officiated this race twice and never heard
of this issue. Even though you make a great point, "Throwing objects is BS,
verbally and physically abusing Juniors is BS, spitting is disgusting and
BS.", and a not so great one...."is a product of the number of dry venues on
the calendar." Your argument makes no sense. A couple of questions for you,
since it seems you think new racers should know the unwritten rules of
cross. Where is that explained where on the flyer? Was that announced at the
start of the race?

Beer and cross go together in Oregon, I understand that, but saying that
getting overly intoxicated and people did at Astoria is because some venues
are dry is dumb. Like others have said, racers should not be riding and
drinking, fans should be respectful and not throw things, spit, etc. Ring
your bell, scream, enjoy the races, and have a good time, but if you have to
do it drunk to have a "good time", then is this really the venue for you?

-Scott Jones

On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 10:10 AM, Matthew Case wrote:

> Lots of good points on all sides here. I personally would be very
> disappointed if 'Cross became a dry sport, it's the last of the disciplines
> that have a festival atmosphere and it would be sad to see it go away.
>
> The beer tossing situation in Astoria, for better of worse, is a product of
> the number of dry venues on the calendar as well as the general feeling of
> "dress up or get the smack down". That being said, I think it's completely
> unreasonable to throw any object at anyone on a bike, ever. It's ridiculous
> to subject Juniors to beer throwing at all, they're kids, not adults, and I
> strongly censure anyone causing any of those kids grief. It's also
> disgusting to spit anything at a racer, the communicable disease issue is a
> real one, made even more real by the H1N1 situation right now.
>
> In conclusion, beer at races can be reasonable and fun. Throwing objects
> is BS, verbally and physically abusing Juniors is BS, spitting is disgusting
> and BS. Beer throwing is generally saved for non-costumed racers at Astoria
> and most anyone doing that race should have recognized that. For now, let's
> just drink the beer, yell and cheer, race without fear, for the rest of the
> year. Thanks folks.
>
> Matt Case
>
> On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 9:13 AM, Jim Walker wrote:
>
>> I think it is important to be good to my children.
>>
>> Someday they will be picking out the Nursing Home I go into.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>>
>> 11/05/2009 10:58 PM
>> >From Aaron Coker
>> I don't know what the big deal is. I get drunk and spit on my kids all the
>> time in the comfort of my own home.
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

Matthew Case

2009-11-06

Lots of good points on all sides here. I personally would be very
disappointed if 'Cross became a dry sport, it's the last of the disciplines
that have a festival atmosphere and it would be sad to see it go away.

The beer tossing situation in Astoria, for better of worse, is a product of
the number of dry venues on the calendar as well as the general feeling of
"dress up or get the smack down". That being said, I think it's completely
unreasonable to throw any object at anyone on a bike, ever. It's ridiculous
to subject Juniors to beer throwing at all, they're kids, not adults, and I
strongly censure anyone causing any of those kids grief. It's also
disgusting to spit anything at a racer, the communicable disease issue is a
real one, made even more real by the H1N1 situation right now.

In conclusion, beer at races can be reasonable and fun. Throwing objects is
BS, verbally and physically abusing Juniors is BS, spitting is disgusting
and BS. Beer throwing is generally saved for non-costumed racers at Astoria
and most anyone doing that race should have recognized that. For now, let's
just drink the beer, yell and cheer, race without fear, for the rest of the
year. Thanks folks.

Matt Case

On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 9:13 AM, Jim Walker wrote:

> I think it is important to be good to my children.
>
> Someday they will be picking out the Nursing Home I go into.
>
> Jim
>
>
> 11/05/2009 10:58 PM
> >From Aaron Coker
> I don't know what the big deal is. I get drunk and spit on my kids all the
> time in the comfort of my own home.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Jim Walker

2009-11-06

I think it is important to be good to my children.

Someday they will be picking out the Nursing Home I go into.

Jim

11/05/2009 10:58 PM
>From Aaron Coker
I don't know what the big deal is. I get drunk and spit on my kids all the time in the comfort of my own home.

Aaron Coker

2009-11-05

I don't know what the big deal is. I get drunk and spit on my kids all the time in the comfort of my own home.

Mike Murray

2009-11-05

Kenji is right. So is Max. It's not the beer. It's the behavior.
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: "T. Kenji Sugahara"
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 19:30:49
To: Max Kirchoff
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beer and Juniors

Here's what it comes down to. I love beer. Yes- I love foofy beer-
ask Matt D'Elia. Raspberry flavored beer.

But... I don't get wasted like I used to in my fraternity days. All
folks are asking is that as a spectator don't get so shnockered that
you become belligerent and do something stupid- like take out a
junior. Or start yelling like you have Tourette Syndrome. And like
driving- don't drink and bike. Don't race when you're intoxicated.
We don't do breathalyzers but the danger is that if you're boozed you
might take someone else out. How would you feel if you broke a
collarbone because some drunk yahoo takes you out?

And that spitting thing- gross. I mean if you were out on the street,
would you hock a loogie on a complete stranger? If you did, what
would think their reaction would be?

You're all old enough (well... most of you)- and sometimes you need a
gentle reminder. We can all agree that our main goal is to attract
more racers- and acting like jerks doesn't further that goal. So... I
ask you- don't use common sense (as some common sense is actually
pretty stupid)- use your good sense.

k-

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 6:06 PM, Max Kirchoff wrote:
> I heard a very well known Portland cycling figure was stone sober, spraying
> everyone in the face with water.
>
> I call for a ban on water at all races.
>
> Hurumph hurumph hurumph.
>
> Max Kirchoff
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone...
>
> On Nov 5, 2009, at 5:24 PM, Jim Walker wrote:
>
>> The challenge with alcohol is the problem conduct it can result in.
>>
>> This is another example of the behavior of a few affecting the majority.
>> However, it is totally unacceptable to have even a single incident where
>> athletes (or anyone else) are being assaulted with flying objects and spit
>> on by people with possible unknown communicable diseases.
>>
>> The questions are:
>> Can you control the behavior of jerks that drink?
>> Is it really worth it to have their criminal behavior limit future
>> opportunities for cycling?
>>
>> The problem isn’t OBRA, but it is the responsibility of the race promoters
>> and OBRA to attempt to prevent these actions from occurring again. It is
>> clearly now an issue and failure to act would be viewed as obvious
>> negligence by the organizing parties if an unfortunate event were to occur
>> in the future.
>>
>> I vote for sober cycling events. It is safer and more enjoyable for those
>> on the course and on the road back home.
>>
>> I wouldn’t think of it as being anal. I would process it more as having
>> respect and pride for my sport and wanting to prevent someone from suffering
>> a serious injury or disease.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
>> Behalf Of Luciano bailey
>> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 4:15 PM
>> To: mike murray; zak
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beer and Juniors
>>
>> When did the US become so anal. go down under or to any of the euro set
>> where alcohol is part of the culture this is a non issue. Don´t get me wrong
>> I TOTALLY feel the OBRA points made by Mike I would feel the same if the
>> liability was mine. Lets not forget or pretend that spectators and racers
>> alike have not been drinking at races for a century .it has always been part
>> of the atmosphere. By the way I don´t drink.
>>
>>
>> From: mike.murray@obra.org
>> To: obra@list.obra.org
>> Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 08:39:24 -0800
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beer and Juniors
>> This is incorrect. There have been episodes of minors trying to get beer
>> at races. I am sure some have been successful. The events of last weekend
>> showed that the presence of (supposedly) responsible adults was not terribly
>> protective against bad behavior. Excessive enforcement may drive underage
>> drinking underground but having underage people obtain alcohol at races puts
>> the entire organization at risk. I am more concerned about the possibility
>> of legal problems than I am worried that some kids might drink. In
>> addition, the possibility of injury related to alcohol use (drunk driving,
>> riding, throwing of items at riders, etc.) creates liability risk for the
>> whole organization. Last weekend was a sentinel event. We need to clean up
>> the show.
>>
>> Mike Murray
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>_______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

T. Kenji Sugahara

2009-11-05

Here's what it comes down to. I love beer. Yes- I love foofy beer-
ask Matt D'Elia. Raspberry flavored beer.

But... I don't get wasted like I used to in my fraternity days. All
folks are asking is that as a spectator don't get so shnockered that
you become belligerent and do something stupid- like take out a
junior. Or start yelling like you have Tourette Syndrome. And like
driving- don't drink and bike. Don't race when you're intoxicated.
We don't do breathalyzers but the danger is that if you're boozed you
might take someone else out. How would you feel if you broke a
collarbone because some drunk yahoo takes you out?

And that spitting thing- gross. I mean if you were out on the street,
would you hock a loogie on a complete stranger? If you did, what
would think their reaction would be?

You're all old enough (well... most of you)- and sometimes you need a
gentle reminder. We can all agree that our main goal is to attract
more racers- and acting like jerks doesn't further that goal. So... I
ask you- don't use common sense (as some common sense is actually
pretty stupid)- use your good sense.

k-

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 6:06 PM, Max Kirchoff wrote:
> I heard a very well known Portland cycling figure was stone sober, spraying
> everyone in the face with water.
>
> I call for a ban on water at all races.
>
> Hurumph hurumph hurumph.
>
> Max Kirchoff
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone...
>
> On Nov 5, 2009, at 5:24 PM, Jim Walker wrote:
>
>> The challenge with alcohol is the problem conduct it can result in.
>>
>> This is another example of the behavior of a few affecting the majority.
>> However, it is totally unacceptable to have even a single incident where
>> athletes (or anyone else) are being assaulted with flying objects and spit
>> on by people with possible unknown communicable diseases.
>>
>> The questions are:
>> Can you control the behavior of jerks that drink?
>> Is it really worth it to have their criminal behavior limit future
>> opportunities for cycling?
>>
>> The problem isn’t OBRA, but it is the responsibility of the race promoters
>> and OBRA to attempt to prevent these actions from occurring again. It is
>> clearly now an issue and failure to act would be viewed as obvious
>> negligence by the organizing parties if an unfortunate event were to occur
>> in the future.
>>
>> I vote for sober cycling events. It is safer and more enjoyable for those
>> on the course and on the road back home.
>>
>> I wouldn’t think of it as being anal. I would process it more as having
>> respect and pride for my sport and wanting to prevent someone from suffering
>> a serious injury or disease.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
>> Behalf Of Luciano bailey
>> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 4:15 PM
>> To: mike murray; zak
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beer and Juniors
>>
>> When did the US become so anal. go down under or to any of the euro set
>> where alcohol is part of the culture this is a non issue. Don´t get me wrong
>> I TOTALLY feel the OBRA points made by Mike I would feel the same if the
>> liability was mine. Lets not forget or pretend that spectators and racers
>> alike have not been drinking at races for a century .it has always been part
>> of the atmosphere. By the way I don´t drink.
>>
>>
>> From: mike.murray@obra.org
>> To: obra@list.obra.org
>> Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 08:39:24 -0800
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beer and Juniors
>> This is incorrect. There have been episodes of minors trying to get beer
>> at races. I am sure some have been successful. The events of last weekend
>> showed that the presence of (supposedly) responsible adults was not terribly
>> protective against bad behavior. Excessive enforcement may drive underage
>> drinking underground but having underage people obtain alcohol at races puts
>> the entire organization at risk. I am more concerned about the possibility
>> of legal problems than I am worried that some kids might drink. In
>> addition, the possibility of injury related to alcohol use (drunk driving,
>> riding, throwing of items at riders, etc.) creates liability risk for the
>> whole organization. Last weekend was a sentinel event. We need to clean up
>> the show.
>>
>> Mike Murray
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Max Kirchoff

2009-11-05

I heard a very well known Portland cycling figure was stone sober,
spraying everyone in the face with water.

I call for a ban on water at all races.

Hurumph hurumph hurumph.

Max Kirchoff

Sent from my iPhone...

On Nov 5, 2009, at 5:24 PM, Jim Walker wrote:

> The challenge with alcohol is the problem conduct it can result in.
>
> This is another example of the behavior of a few affecting the
> majority. However, it is totally unacceptable to have even a single
> incident where athletes (or anyone else) are being assaulted with
> flying objects and spit on by people with possible unknown
> communicable diseases.
>
> The questions are:
> Can you control the behavior of jerks that drink?
> Is it really worth it to have their criminal behavior limit future
> opportunities for cycling?
>
> The problem isn’t OBRA, but it is the responsibility of the race pro
> moters and OBRA to attempt to prevent these actions from occurring a
> gain. It is clearly now an issue and failure to act would be viewed
> as obvious negligence by the organizing parties if an unfortunate ev
> ent were to occur in the future.
>
> I vote for sober cycling events. It is safer and more enjoyable for
> those on the course and on the road back home.
>
> I wouldn’t think of it as being anal. I would process it more as hav
> ing respect and pride for my sport and wanting to prevent someone fr
> om suffering a serious injury or disease.
>
> Jim
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]
> On Behalf Of Luciano bailey
> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 4:15 PM
> To: mike murray; zak
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beer and Juniors
>
> When did the US become so anal. go down under or to any of the euro
> set where alcohol is part of the culture this is a non issue. Don´t
> get me wrong I TOTALLY feel the OBRA points made by Mike I would fee
> l the same if the liability was mine. Lets not forget or pretend tha
> t spectators and racers alike have not been drinking at races for a
> century .it has always been part of the atmosphere. By the way I don
> ´t drink.
>
>
> From: mike.murray@obra.org
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 08:39:24 -0800
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beer and Juniors
> This is incorrect. There have been episodes of minors trying to get
> beer at races. I am sure some have been successful. The events of
> last weekend showed that the presence of (supposedly) responsible
> adults was not terribly protective against bad behavior. Excessive
> enforcement may drive underage drinking underground but having
> underage people obtain alcohol at races puts the entire organization
> at risk. I am more concerned about the possibility of legal
> problems than I am worried that some kids might drink. In addition,
> the possibility of injury related to alcohol use (drunk driving,
> riding, throwing of items at riders, etc.) creates liability risk
> for the whole organization. Last weekend was a sentinel event. We
> need to clean up the show.
>
> Mike Murray
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Jim Walker

2009-11-05

The challenge with alcohol is the problem conduct it can result in.

This is another example of the behavior of a few affecting the majority. However, it is totally unacceptable to have even a single incident where athletes (or anyone else) are being assaulted with flying objects and spit on by people with possible unknown communicable diseases.

The questions are:
Can you control the behavior of jerks that drink?
Is it really worth it to have their criminal behavior limit future opportunities for cycling?

The problem isn’t OBRA, but it is the responsibility of the race promoters and OBRA to attempt to prevent these actions from occurring again. It is clearly now an issue and failure to act would be viewed as obvious negligence by the organizing parties if an unfortunate event were to occur in the future.

I vote for sober cycling events. It is safer and more enjoyable for those on the course and on the road back home.

I wouldn’t think of it as being anal. I would process it more as having respect and pride for my sport and wanting to prevent someone from suffering a serious injury or disease.

Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Luciano bailey
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 4:15 PM
To: mike murray; zak
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beer and Juniors

When did the US become so anal. go down under or to any of the euro set where alcohol is part of the culture this is a non issue. Don´t get me wrong I TOTALLY feel the OBRA points made by Mike I would feel the same if the liability was mine. Lets not forget or pretend that spectators and racers alike have not been drinking at races for a century .it has always been part of the atmosphere. By the way I don´t drink.

From: mike.murray@obra.org
To: obra@list.obra.org
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 08:39:24 -0800
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beer and Juniors
This is incorrect. There have been episodes of minors trying to get beer at races. I am sure some have been successful. The events of last weekend showed that the presence of (supposedly) responsible adults was not terribly protective against bad behavior. Excessive enforcement may drive underage drinking underground but having underage people obtain alcohol at races puts the entire organization at risk. I am more concerned about the possibility of legal problems than I am worried that some kids might drink. In addition, the possibility of injury related to alcohol use (drunk driving, riding, throwing of items at riders, etc.) creates liability risk for the whole organization. Last weekend was a sentinel event. We need to clean up the show.

Mike Murray

Luciano bailey

2009-11-05

When did the US become so anal. go down under or to any of the euro set where alcohol is part of the culture this is a non issue. Don´t get me wrong I TOTALLY feel the OBRA points made by Mike I would feel the same if the liability was mine. Lets not forget or pretend that spectators and racers alike have not been drinking at races for a century .it has always been part of the atmosphere. By the way I don´t drink.

From: mike.murray@obra.org
To: obra@list.obra.org
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 08:39:24 -0800
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beer and Juniors

This is incorrect. There have been episodes of minors trying to get beer at races. I am sure some have been successful. The events of last weekend showed that the presence of (supposedly) responsible adults was not terribly protective against bad behavior. Excessive enforcement may drive underage drinking underground but having underage people obtain alcohol at races puts the entire organization at risk. I am more concerned about the possibility of legal problems than I am worried that some kids might drink. In addition, the possibility of injury related to alcohol use (drunk driving, riding, throwing of items at riders, etc.) creates liability risk for the whole organization. Last weekend was a sentinel event. We need to clean up the show.

Mike Murray

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Mike Kerkmann
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 00:29 AM
To: obra@list.obra.org; Randy Word
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beer and Juniors

I don't know what all the OLCC paranoia is all about. There are enough responsible adults around that would self police these kind of events (let alone fairs and other crap). How many junior cycle racers show up without a parent/guardian figure and would bee line it the keg if given a chance? Slimmm I think.

Sorry if I am way off, but I think the over protective nature of our gov is just pushing underage drinking underground without the support and education that those who are more mature might offer. And no, I am not condoning it, I do think that the enforcement is excessive and creates a different set of problems.

-Mike

--- On Tue, 11/3/09, Randy Word wrote:

From: Randy Word
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Beer and Juniors
To: obra@list.obra.org
Date: Tuesday, November 3, 2009, 9:59 PM

Juniors and a ride through beer garden this Saturday? I'm sure that along with beer cans thrown in the face, spitting, and swearing will make every parent want to get their kids involved in bike racing. Thank you to those who recognized the issue last weekend and are putting a stop to it, but promoting and glorifying alcohol along with bike races is part of the problem and it certainly doesn't help with the goal of Junior development in the sport. Beer parties are fine if that's your thing, but they should be separate, not a glorified part of sanctioned races.
Randy

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Mike Murray

2009-11-04

OBRA officials can enforce penalties under OBRA rules but they cannot be responsible for spectator behavior. They can cancel races or disqualify competitors but they are not responsible for venue security. This is the responsibility of the race organizer.
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: "Ron and Dorothy Strasser"
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 15:25:18
To: ;
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beer and Juniors

This is where the OBRA officials and Promoters need to be in charge at events. By far most of the beer consumption at these events is pretty harmless (unless you view any alcohol consumption as poison and we won't go there right now). As was said earlier, there are always going to be people who are or with alcohol use become out of control. Some of them just don't care and are willing to do almost anything for attention. When that takes place they should be removed from the event, DQd or whatever is necessary. I enjoy ringing my cowbell and at times having a beer. That is what most people do. I know there is tons for officials/promoters to do at races, but when stuff happens, if it is bad enough, they need to know "who" did it and go from there. There is nothing wrong with racing our bikes at High Schools / Alpenrose where no beer is allowed and we do just fine in that setting, but we should be able to handle venues where beer can be consumed. Keep the situation under control with regard to first SAFETY and the liability will pretty much follow in step. my two cents.
ron
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Murray
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 2:08 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beer and Juniors

I agree with this. We need to make sure that events are complying with applicable laws and that liability is limited for all parties. Simply fencing in the area where alcohol is served is not all that needs to be done. We also need to recognize that much of the alcohol is not provided by the race organization.

Mike Murray

From: Maximillian Kirchoff [mailto:max@maxisnow.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 09:40 AM
To: lisa graham
Cc: mike.murray@obra.org; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beer and Juniors

Why not use the enforcement that would be necessary for a beer garden sanctioned area and make that enforcement watching for the smaller group of deviants. There are plenty of responsible adults who weren't spraying people with beer, who would still like to enjoy a tall boy at the races.

Changing the general structure of how/when/where beer is consumed is not going to stop the jerks from being jerks. That's like sitting in a refrigerator when you have a fever. There should be steps taken to penalize and expel anyone participating in unacceptable behavior. That's what they do in sports and at bars. I'm not against conforming to OLCC regulations and recommendations, however I believe the structure of these events already falls into those. And while I can understand a lack of staff to fulfill enforcement, remember that creating a ban on beer or having sanctioned "beer garden" areas will require the same, if not more, enforcement.

And if this really does come down to a lack of person-power, there seems to be a number of people who are chiming in now that would love to watch out for fellow racers' and the juniors' safety.

______________{ :)
Max Kirchoff
(503) 770-0629
max@maxisnow.com
http://www.maxisnow.com
http://portfolio.maxisnow.com

On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 9:15 AM, lisa graham wrote:

Mike is right,minors did get beer over the weekend,and minors were also sprayed with beer for not being in costume! Seriously, spraying a JR rider with beer is stupid,if they are not already very involved in racing do you think they would want to race again? Not likely.
Lisa Graham

h
p i
u l
Me after a long ride ^^ l

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mike.murray@obra.org

To: obra@list.obra.org

Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 08:39:24 -0800
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beer and Juniors

This is incorrect. There have been episodes of minors trying to get beer at races. I am sure some have been successful. The events of last weekend showed that the presence of (supposedly) responsible adults was not terribly protective against bad behavior. Excessive enforcement may drive underage drinking underground but having underage people obtain alcohol at races puts the entire organization at risk. I am more concerned about the possibility of legal problems than I am worried that some kids might drink. In addition, the possibility of injury related to alcohol use (drunk driving, riding, throwing of items at riders, etc.) creates liability risk for the whole organization. Last weekend was a sentinel event. We need to clean up the show.

Mike Murray

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Mike Kerkmann

Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 00:29 AM

To: obra@list.obra.org; Randy Word
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beer and Juniors

I don't know what all the OLCC paranoia is all about. There are enough responsible adults around that would self police these kind of events (let alone fairs and other crap). How many junior cycle racers show up without a parent/guardian figure and would bee line it the keg if given a chance? Slimmm I think.

Sorry if I am way off, but I think the over protective nature of our gov is just pushing underage drinking underground without the support and education that those who are more mature might offer. And no, I am not condoning it, I do think that the enforcement is excessive and creates a different set of problems.

-Mike

--- On Tue, 11/3/09, Randy Word wrote:

From: Randy Word
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Beer and Juniors
To: obra@list.obra.org
Date: Tuesday, November 3, 2009, 9:59 PM

Juniors and a ride through beer garden this Saturday? I'm sure that along with beer cans thrown in the face, spitting, and swearing will make every parent want to get their kids involved in bike racing. Thank you to those who recognized the issue last weekend and are putting a stop to it, but promoting and glorifying alcohol along with bike races is part of the problem and it certainly doesn't help with the goal of Junior development in the sport. Beer parties are fine if that's your thing, but they should be separate, not a glorified part of sanctioned races.
Randy

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obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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Ron and Dorothy Strasser