Jamie Mikami
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So I think what we are all saying is that we should change the OBRA championships to a 30+, 40+, 50+ etc instead of a 30-39 format.
I am all for that as long as we try to avoid letting non counting people race. I remember the state road race a few years back and it was 30-44 with 5 year age groups. So being in the 30-34 group I chased down every singe attack in the 35-44 groups that did not contain a teammate. Does this make me a bad rider? I dont care ... I was following the rules which stated we could do that, but lets just say it did not make the break riders very happy every time. Would I do it again, sure I would. I follow the rules to the best of my benefit ... its a race, the point is to win within the rules. And if you can help your teammates win, some riders will take that option. Did it make the race unfair for the other groups, sure, but life is not fair.
So I would like to add a clause that protects riders from what I did, basically protect me from me. So in addition to the rule change of making it 30+, etc. I propose we add something along the lines of ...
For OBRA championships all riders that start a championship race at the same time are eligible for medals in that race. Only medal eligible riders are allowed to start any Championship race.
I am not sure how this might affect the smaller junior or women's races, but racing for medals with multiple groups at the same time, or having non-eligible riders in the groups is just wrong in my opinion.
Maybe we could add to the above rule. Any championship race with under 5 riders maybe combined with another race and the riders may compete for a separate set of medals at the discretion of the chief referee and the riders. In this case riders should be identified so that it is easy for the riders to figure out who is in what race.
Just my two cents.
Jamie
----- Original Message -----
From: Erik Long
To: ob-@topica.com
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 5:20 PM
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] rule changes
Kudos to Bill,
You've nailed the spirit of competition with the accuracy of a laser site.
I'd like to add: Keeping a perfectly safe, experienced rider from competing at a level that they are more than capable of (and taking away their eligibility for medals) is more than ridiculous. It's selfish. It's--dare I say it--age discrimination. We're not talking about letting the seniors race with the juniors, here. We're talking about Old Men being allowed to compete against Men who are less-old if they feel like it. Hell, let them race with the Seniors if they want to, I'm up to it (speaking as a Senior). How fair would it have been for the Olympic comitee to tell Kent Bostick that he wouldn't be allowed to ride the '96 Olympic trials because he was too old(at 42)? The man is damn near fifty and I'd be willing to bet that he'd still give any Oregon Senior a run for his money at the state championship.
Let them race, let them place.
-Erik
>From: "Cass, Bill"
>Reply-To: Bill.-@nike.com
>To: obra , "'cmur-@obra.org'"
>Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] rule changes
>Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 16:15:45 -0800
>
>I usually don't get into this but,......................This is a rather
>silly argument. Being in the younger age bracket, I have no problem with
>someone from an older agegroup handing me my butt in a sling. If I am that
>worried getting whooped I should train more. If someone older wants to race
>in a younger, more competitive category....Have at it. If they win a
>championship....More power to them. These are the silly rules that keep
>groups from being more competitive and faster. If Chuck Jarabek or Hank
>Pfiefle showed up and wanted to race against us again we could whine all the
>way to second place. Someone who trains hard and wants to race hard
>shouldn't be restricted by being too old to compete. I can think of a single
>speed guru in Oregon that is still in the habit of taking on the Senior
>II's. It is like telling a junior they cannot race with seniors because they
>might beat them. Once you get beyond our Oregon shores riders like that need
>that experience and competitive training. It is about raising the level of
>competition not taking away a precious medal because someone older than you
>is faster. Let them race.
>
>Bill Cass
>
>
>
> > ----------
> > From: Candi Murray/Oregon Bicycle Racing Assn
> > Reply To: cmur-@obra.org
> > Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 2:54 PM
> > To: obra
> > Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] rule changes
> >
> > Well yeah if you read it literally. But the governing body (you know the
> > evil empire) has in the past let older masters ride down an age group.
> > The
> > interpretation was that they had been that age and now were at a deficit
> > since they were older. We let some of the older guys ride down last year
> > at
> > the state road race and had some complaints, so we are trying to get the
> > feel from the other riders and make the rule clearer.
> > Is that any help?
> > Candi
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Erik Voldengen [mailto:eri-@fusium.com]
> > Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 2:49 PM
> > To: cmur-@obra.org; obra
> > Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] rule changes
> >
> >
> > Since the masters categories are defined by age,
> > that suggested rule change makes little sense to me...
> >
> >
> > > Currently we have one suggested rule change to make if consistent for
> > > masters to ride down an age group at the championships. So a 40-49 man
> > > could ride in the 30-39 championships and place.
> >
> > To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.
> > To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com
> > To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.
>To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com
>To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com
>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>So I think what we are all saying is that we should
change the OBRA championships to a 30+, 40+, 50+ etc instead of a 30-39
format.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I am all for that as long as we try to avoid
letting non counting people race. I remember the state road race a few
years back and it was 30-44 with 5 year age groups. So being in the 30-34
group I chased down every singe attack in the 35-44 groups that did not contain
a teammate. Does this make me a bad rider? I dont care ... I was
following the rules which stated we could do that, but lets just say it did not
make the break riders very happy every time. Would I do it again,
sure I would. I follow the rules to the best of my benefit ... its a race,
the point is to win within the rules. And if you can help your teammates
win, some riders will take that option. Did it make the race unfair for
the other groups, sure, but life is not fair.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>So I would like to add a clause that protects
riders from what I did, basically protect me from me. So in addition to
the rule change of making it 30+, etc. I propose we add something along
the lines of ...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>For OBRA championships all riders that start a
championship race at the same time are eligible for medals in that
race. Only medal eligible riders are allowed to start any
Championship race.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I am not sure how this might affect the smaller
junior or women's races, but racing for medals with multiple groups at the same
time, or having non-eligible riders in the groups is just wrong in my
opinion.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Maybe we could add to the above rule. Any
championship race with under 5 riders maybe combined with another race
and the riders may compete for a separate set of medals at the
discretion of the chief referee and the riders. In this case riders should
be identified so that it is easy for the riders to figure out who is in what
race.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Just my two cents.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Jamie</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=el-@hotmail.com href="mailto:elong-@hotmail.com">Erik
Long</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title-@topica.com
href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, January 10, 2003 5:20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [OBRA Chat] rule
changes</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P>Kudos to Bill,</P>
<P>You've nailed the spirit of competition with the accuracy of a laser
site. </P>
<P>I'd like to add: Keeping a perfectly safe, experienced rider from
competing at a level that they are more than capable of (and taking away
their eligibility for medals) is more than ridiculous. It's
selfish. It's--dare I say it--age discrimination. We're not
talking about letting the seniors race with the juniors, here. We're
talking about Old Men being allowed to compete against Men who are less-old if
they feel like it. Hell, let them race with the Seniors if they want to,
I'm up to it (speaking as a Senior). How fair would it have been for the
Olympic comitee to tell Kent Bostick that he wouldn't be allowed to ride the
'96 Olympic trials because he was too old(at 42)? The man is damn near
fifty and I'd be willing to bet that he'd still give any Oregon Senior a run
for his money at the state championship.</P>
<P>Let them race, let them place.</P>
<P>-Erik<BR><BR></P></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>From: "Cass, Bill" <BILL.-@NIKE.COM>
<DIV></DIV>>Reply-To: Bill.-@nike.com
<DIV></DIV>>To: obra <OB-@TOPICA.COM>, "'cmur-@obra.org'"
<CMUR-@OBRA.ORG>
<DIV></DIV>>Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] rule changes
<DIV></DIV>>Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 16:15:45 -0800
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>>I usually don't get into this but,......................This is
a rather
<DIV></DIV>>silly argument. Being in the younger age bracket, I have no
problem with
<DIV></DIV>>someone from an older agegroup handing me my butt in a sling.
If I am that
<DIV></DIV>>worried getting whooped I should train more. If someone older
wants to race
<DIV></DIV>>in a younger, more competitive category....Have at it. If they
win a
<DIV></DIV>>championship....More power to them. These are the silly rules
that keep
<DIV></DIV>>groups from being more competitive and faster. If Chuck Jarabek
or Hank
<DIV></DIV>>Pfiefle showed up and wanted to race against us again we could
whine all the
<DIV></DIV>>way to second place. Someone who trains hard and wants to race
hard
<DIV></DIV>>shouldn't be restricted by being too old to compete. I can
think of a single
<DIV></DIV>>speed guru in Oregon that is still in the habit of taking on
the Senior
<DIV></DIV>>II's. It is like telling a junior they cannot race with seniors
because they
<DIV></DIV>>might beat them. Once you get beyond our Oregon shores riders
like that need
<DIV></DIV>>that experience and competitive training. It is about raising
the level of
<DIV></DIV>>competition not taking away a precious medal because someone
older than you
<DIV></DIV>>is faster. Let them race.
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>>Bill Cass
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>> > ----------
<DIV></DIV>> > From: Candi Murray/Oregon Bicycle Racing Assn
<DIV></DIV>> > Reply To: cmur-@obra.org
<DIV></DIV>> > Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 2:54 PM
<DIV></DIV>> > To: obra
<DIV></DIV>> > Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] rule changes
<DIV></DIV>> >
<DIV></DIV>> > Well yeah if you read it literally. But the governing
body (you know the
<DIV></DIV>> > evil empire) has in the past let older masters ride down
an age group.
<DIV></DIV>> > The
<DIV></DIV>> > interpretation was that they had been that age and now
were at a deficit
<DIV></DIV>> > since they were older. We let some of the older guys ride
down last year
<DIV></DIV>> > at
<DIV></DIV>> > the state road race and had some complaints, so we are
trying to get the
<DIV></DIV>> > feel from the other riders and make the rule clearer.
<DIV></DIV>> > Is that any help?
<DIV></DIV>> > Candi
<DIV></DIV>> >
<DIV></DIV>> >
<DIV></DIV>> >
<DIV></DIV>> > -----Original Message-----
<DIV></DIV>> > From: Erik Voldengen [mailto:eri-@fusium.com]
<DIV></DIV>> > Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 2:49 PM
<DIV></DIV>> > To: cmur-@obra.org; obra
<DIV></DIV>> > Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] rule changes
<DIV></DIV>> >
<DIV></DIV>> >
<DIV></DIV>> > Since the masters categories are defined by age,
<DIV></DIV>> > that suggested rule change makes little sense to me...
<DIV></DIV>> >
<DIV></DIV>> >
<DIV></DIV>> > > Currently we have one suggested rule change to make
if consistent for
<DIV></DIV>> > > masters to ride down an age group at the
championships. So a 40-49 man
<DIV></DIV>> > > could ride in the 30-39 championships and place.
<DIV></DIV>> >
<DIV></DIV>> > To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.
<DIV></DIV>> > To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com
<DIV></DIV>> > To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com
<DIV></DIV>> >
<DIV></DIV>> >
<DIV></DIV>> >
<DIV></DIV>> >
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.
<DIV></DIV>>To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com
<DIV></DIV>>To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV></DIV><BR clear=all>
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