OBRA: OBRA Chat: Cyclist injured...

Dan H.

2003-01-15

I have found a squirt of water or even pepper spray easier to handle than a

pump and provides a wider radius of protection but even then if you are

going down a hill at 30+mph and the dog is laying in wait behind something

[yes, some do that] you have little time to react let alone grab a weapon.

The one I hit weighed 110lbs and bent my forks so that the front wheel

overlapped the frame.

That dog may as well have been a tree stump.

Darn near scraped my face off. I'm much better now.

At 04:02 PM 1/13/03 -0800, you wrote:

Maybe i'm missing something here,

BUT am I the only one who swings his pump at a dogs

head with great "Pollo Pony finess" I've only had to

replace my pump once so far. On account of good contact.

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Dan H.

2003-01-14

At 11:51 AM 1/13/03 -0800, you wrote:

At 11:44 AM 01/13/2003 -0800, Jay Martineau wrote:

You might want to see about getting that dog put down.

Why is it that when an unattended dog follows it's prey instinct and chases

something on the run people say this type of thing?

*******************************************************

Because if an animal is out of control and is injuring people using a

public throughfare, and the owner of the animal hasn't done anything about

it, then the animal needs to be eliminated for the safety of the public.

Its a tough world. Unfortunately, some people own animals and don't take

care of them very well. Too bad for those animals. There is (at this very

moment) a Wildebeast in Africa getting eaten alive by a pack of Hyenas, for

example. Its not fair, but thats life.

The suggestion of putting the animal down is a realistic solution to a

serious problem. Your response (kill the owner) is not realistic, its just

rhetoric.

Fact is that a dog running loose attacking cyclists could easily result in

the death of people AND the animal. To prevent this, you might just have

to be proactive and eliminate the animal.

Scott

Sounds like an argument for the attack on Iraq!

*******************************************

USC: 44 - Notre Dame: 13 Fight On!!

*******************************************

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Erik Voldengen

2003-01-14

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RE: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist injured...I'm against beating any animals,

especially dead horses. While dead, I feel these animals still deserve

respect. Furthermore, I am just kidding and obviously getting squirly, so

I'm off to ride my bike as you suggest.

-----Original Message-----

From: Lennis Herburger [mailto:Lennis.H-@precash.com]

Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:53 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist injured...

how long are we going to beat this dead horse? why don't we just go ride

our bikes....

 -----Original Message-----

 From: Schreck, George [mailto:george.-@pacificorp.com]

 Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:47 AM

 To: pphar-@stoel.com; aka_s-@hotmail.com

 Cc: ob-@topica.com

 Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist injured...

 Actually, when a dog attacks a person (and this was an attack), the

response is not sorry for the accident, not my fault. The owner of the dog

is responsible for the damages caused by the dog. I am the owner of a dog,

and am responsible for all actions of the dog. The owner must ensure that

the dog is confined at all times, and City ordinances do not permit dogs to

run loose. If the dog gets out of the fence, then it must be put on a

chain. Bike riders, runners and pedestrians should not be at risk. Frankly,

if my collarbone was broken and I was laid up for six weeks, the owner of

the dog would be paying me a substantial sum, and it is clear that they can

afford it. Dog owners do not have right superior to the rest of society,

and people have a right to legally go about their business without being

attacked by a dog. The owner has the absolute obligation to ensure that it

is so, and is liable for any failure to do so.

 George Schreck

 Phone: (503) 813-7211

 Fax: (503) 813-7190

 -----Original Message-----

 From: Hartigan, Patrick [mailto:pphar-@stoel.com]

 Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:03 AM

 To: aka sco-@hotmail.com

 Cc: ob-@topica.com

 Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist injured...

 You've got the wrong end of the stick, dear, or at least the wrong

owners. See the emails for Beth's account. Not to mention that legal

statutes and remedies apply.

 That's kind of obvious, isn't it?

 P. Hartigan

 -----Original Message-----

 From: Scott & Hilary [mailto:aka sco-@hotmail.com]

 Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 10:37 AM

 To: ob-@topica.com

 Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist injured...

 Ivan - that bites, and I'm really sorry that you had to go down. Best

of

 luck for a speedy recovery. (Think of it this way, you would've had to

race

 against Magnus for "January Champion" anyway - when you come back, many

of

 us will be shot from beating each other's brains out in February and

 March!).

 About the dog and the dog owners -

 First off, who hasn't been chased and/or come into contact with an

animal of

 some kind? We all share the road - and not just with other cars.

 Secondly, the owners of the dog in question are my neighbors. They are

nice

 people who have a very nice home, horse ranch, and piece of property.

They

 also have a tremendous amount of fencing - look at it sometime. They

 invested thousands of dollars into vinyl fencing along the road to keep

 their horses and their dogs free from interfering with cars, bikes, and

 pedestrians along the road. The one problem is that they have to get in

and

 out of their property, so there must be a hole in the fence somewhere.

And

 - having been chased by that dog many, may times myself - the dog

sometimes

 cannot help itself but sneak down to the driveway and run into the road.

 My point is, sometimes things just happen. We have a word for it:

Accident.

 What point is it to throw blame around? Blame the fencemakers for not

 sealing off every bit of the property. Blame the owner for not

investing

 even more money into keeping their home separate from the neighborhood

 (maybe a wall enclosing the whole property would've been better?).

Blame

 the dog for having the instincts to run after something. Blame the city

for

 not building a barrier between road and home.

 My family and I have dogs. And we have fencing. And we try to keep our

 dogs off of Skyline for their safety and the safety of others. But if

they

 happen to get out, through a series of unfortunate occances, and knock a

 rider off of their bike, are you going to reasonably say that me or my

dog

 ought to be put down?

 Let's focus our energies elsewhere - like wishing Ivan a speedy

recovery.

 Scott Powell

 Team Oregon

 Skyline Neighborhood Association

 The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*

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<DIV>I'm

against beating any animals, especially dead horses. While dead, I feel

these animals still deserve respect. Furthermore, I am just kidding

and obviously getting squirly, so I'm off to ride my bike as you

suggest.</DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE

style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid">

<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left>-----Original Message----- From: Lennis Herburger

[mailto:Lennis.H-@precash.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 14,

2003 11:53 AM To: ob-@topica.com Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat]

Cyclist injured... </DIV>

<DIV>how

long are we going to beat this dead horse? why don't we just go ride our

bikes....</DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

 <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left>-----Original Message----- From: Schreck, George

 [mailto:george.-@pacificorp.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 14,

 2003 11:47 AM To: pphar-@stoel.com;

 aka_s-@hotmail.com Cc: ob-@topica.com Subject: RE:

 [OBRA Chat] Cyclist injured... </DIV>

 Actually, when a dog attacks a person (and this was an

 attack), the response is not sorry for the accident, not my fault. The

 owner of the dog is responsible for the damages caused by the dog. I am the

 owner of a dog, and am responsible for all actions of the dog. The

 owner must ensure that the dog is confined at all times, and City ordinances

 do not permit dogs to run loose. If the dog gets out of the fence,

 then it must be put on a chain. Bike riders, runners and pedestrians should

 not be at risk. Frankly, if my collarbone was broken and I was laid up

 for six weeks, the owner of the dog would be paying me a substantial sum,

 and it is clear that they can afford it. Dog owners do not have right

 superior to the rest of society, and people have a right to legally go about

 their business without being attacked by a dog. The owner has the

 absolute obligation to ensure that it is so, and is liable for any failure

 to do so.

 George

 Schreck Phone: (503)

 813-7211 Fax: (503)

 813-7190 

 -----Original Message----- From:

 Hartigan, Patrick [<A

 href="mailto:pphar-@stoel.com">mailto:pphar-@stoel.com</A>]

 Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:03 AM To: aka sco-@hotmail.com Cc:

 ob-@topica.com Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist

 injured... 

 You've got the wrong end of the stick, dear, or at least the

 wrong owners. See the emails for Beth's account. Not to mention that legal

 statutes and remedies apply. 

 That's kind of obvious, isn't it? 

 P. Hartigan 

 -----Original Message----- From:

 Scott & Hilary [<A href="mailto:aka sco-@hotmail.com">mailto:aka

 sco-@hotmail.com</A>] Sent: Tuesday, January 14,

 2003 10:37 AM To: ob-@topica.com Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist injured... 

 Ivan - that bites, and I'm really sorry that you had to go

 down. Best of luck for a speedy

 recovery. (Think of it this way, you would've had to race

 against Magnus for "January Champion" anyway - when

 you come back, many of us will be shot from beating

 each other's brains out in February and March!). 

 About the dog and the dog owners - 

 First off, who hasn't been chased and/or come into contact

 with an animal of some kind? We all share the

 road - and not just with other cars. 

 Secondly, the owners of the dog in question are my

 neighbors. They are nice people who have a

 very nice home, horse ranch, and piece of property. They

 also have a tremendous amount of fencing - look at

 it sometime. They invested thousands of

 dollars into vinyl fencing along the road to keep their horses and their dogs free from interfering with cars, bikes,

 and pedestrians along the road. The one

 problem is that they have to get in and out of their

 property, so there must be a hole in the fence somewhere. And

 - having been chased by that dog many, may times

 myself - the dog sometimes cannot help itself but

 sneak down to the driveway and run into the road. 

 My point is, sometimes things just happen. We have a

 word for it: Accident. 

 What point is it to throw blame around? Blame the

 fencemakers for not sealing off every bit of the

 property. Blame the owner for not investing even more money into keeping their home separate from the

 neighborhood (maybe a wall enclosing the whole

 property would've been better?). Blame the dog

 for having the instincts to run after something. Blame the city for

 not building a barrier between road and home.

 

 My family and I have dogs. And we have fencing.

 And we try to keep our dogs off of Skyline for their

 safety and the safety of others. But if they happen to get out, through a series of unfortunate occances, and

 knock a rider off of their bike, are you going to

 reasonably say that me or my dog ought to be put

 down? 

 Let's focus our energies elsewhere - like wishing Ivan a

 speedy recovery. 

 Scott Powell Team Oregon

 Skyline Neighborhood Association 

 The new MSN 8: smart spam protection

 and 2 months FREE* <A

 href="http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail"

 target=" blank">http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail</A> 

 To respond to the whole group send to

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 To respond to the whole group send to

 ob-@topica.com. To respond to the list manager send

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Doug Evans

2003-01-14

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Sounds good to me!

-----Original Message-----

From: Lennis Herburger [mailto:Lennis.H-@precash.com]

Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:53 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist injured...

how long are we going to beat this dead horse? why don't we just go ride our bikes....

-----Original Message-----

From: Schreck, George [mailto:george.-@pacificorp.com]

Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:47 AM

To: pphar-@stoel.com; aka_s-@hotmail.com

Cc: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist injured...

Actually, when a dog attacks a person (and this was an attack), the response is not sorry for the accident, not my fault. The owner of the dog is responsible for the damages caused by the dog. I am the owner of a dog, and am responsible for all actions of the dog. The owner must ensure that the dog is confined at all times, and City ordinances do not permit dogs to run loose. If the dog gets out of the fence, then it must be put on a chain. Bike riders, runners and pedestrians should not be at risk. Frankly, if my collarbone was broken and I was laid up for six weeks, the owner of the dog would be paying me a substantial sum, and it is clear that they can afford it. Dog owners do not have right superior to the rest of society, and people have a right to legally go about their business without being attacked by a dog. The owner has the absolute obligation to ensure that it is so, and is liable for any failure to do so.

 George Schreck

 Phone: (503) 813-7211

 Fax: (503) 813-7190

-----Original Message-----

From: Hartigan, Patrick [ mailto:pphar-@stoel.com]

Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:03 AM

To: aka sco-@hotmail.com

Cc: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist injured...

You've got the wrong end of the stick, dear, or at least the wrong owners. See the emails for Beth's account. Not to mention that legal statutes and remedies apply.

That's kind of obvious, isn't it?

P. Hartigan

-----Original Message-----

From: Scott & Hilary [ mailto:aka <mailto:aka sco-@hotmail.com> sco-@hotmail.com]

Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 10:37 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist injured...

Ivan - that bites, and I'm really sorry that you had to go down. Best of

luck for a speedy recovery. (Think of it this way, you would've had to race

against Magnus for "January Champion" anyway - when you come back, many of

us will be shot from beating each other's brains out in February and

March!).

About the dog and the dog owners -

First off, who hasn't been chased and/or come into contact with an animal of

some kind? We all share the road - and not just with other cars.

Secondly, the owners of the dog in question are my neighbors. They are nice

people who have a very nice home, horse ranch, and piece of property. They

also have a tremendous amount of fencing - look at it sometime. They

invested thousands of dollars into vinyl fencing along the road to keep

their horses and their dogs free from interfering with cars, bikes, and

pedestrians along the road. The one problem is that they have to get in and

out of their property, so there must be a hole in the fence somewhere. And

- having been chased by that dog many, may times myself - the dog sometimes

cannot help itself but sneak down to the driveway and run into the road.

My point is, sometimes things just happen. We have a word for it: Accident.

What point is it to throw blame around? Blame the fencemakers for not

sealing off every bit of the property. Blame the owner for not investing

even more money into keeping their home separate from the neighborhood

(maybe a wall enclosing the whole property would've been better?). Blame

the dog for having the instincts to run after something. Blame the city for

not building a barrier between road and home.

My family and I have dogs. And we have fencing. And we try to keep our

dogs off of Skyline for their safety and the safety of others. But if they

happen to get out, through a series of unfortunate occances, and knock a

rider off of their bike, are you going to reasonably say that me or my dog

ought to be put down?

Let's focus our energies elsewhere - like wishing Ivan a speedy recovery.

Scott Powell

Team Oregon

Skyline Neighborhood Association

The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*

http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

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------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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<DIV>Sounds

good to me!</DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE>

<DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr>-----Original Message----- From: Lennis Herburger

[mailto:Lennis.H-@precash.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 14,

2003 11:53 AM To: ob-@topica.com Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat]

Cyclist injured... </DIV>

<DIV>how

long are we going to beat this dead horse? why don't we just go ride our

bikes....</DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

 <DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr>-----Original Message----- From: Schreck, George

 [mailto:george.-@pacificorp.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 14,

 2003 11:47 AM To: pphar-@stoel.com;

 aka_s-@hotmail.com Cc: ob-@topica.com Subject: RE:

 [OBRA Chat] Cyclist injured... </DIV>

 Actually, when a dog attacks a person (and this was an

 attack), the response is not sorry for the accident, not my fault. The

 owner of the dog is responsible for the damages caused by the dog. I am the

 owner of a dog, and am responsible for all actions of the dog. The

 owner must ensure that the dog is confined at all times, and City ordinances

 do not permit dogs to run loose. If the dog gets out of the fence,

 then it must be put on a chain. Bike riders, runners and pedestrians should

 not be at risk. Frankly, if my collarbone was broken and I was laid up

 for six weeks, the owner of the dog would be paying me a substantial sum,

 and it is clear that they can afford it. Dog owners do not have right

 superior to the rest of society, and people have a right to legally go about

 their business without being attacked by a dog. The owner has the

 absolute obligation to ensure that it is so, and is liable for any failure

 to do so.

 George

 Schreck Phone: (503)

 813-7211 Fax: (503)

 813-7190 

 -----Original Message----- From:

 Hartigan, Patrick [<A

 href="mailto:pphar-@stoel.com">mailto:pphar-@stoel.com</A>]

 Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:03 AM To: aka sco-@hotmail.com Cc:

 ob-@topica.com Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist

 injured... 

 You've got the wrong end of the stick, dear, or at least the

 wrong owners. See the emails for Beth's account. Not to mention that legal

 statutes and remedies apply. 

 That's kind of obvious, isn't it? 

 P. Hartigan 

 -----Original Message----- From:

 Scott & Hilary [<A href="mailto:aka sco-@hotmail.com">mailto:aka

 sco-@hotmail.com</A>] Sent: Tuesday, January 14,

 2003 10:37 AM To: ob-@topica.com Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist injured... 

 Ivan - that bites, and I'm really sorry that you had to go

 down. Best of luck for a speedy

 recovery. (Think of it this way, you would've had to race

 against Magnus for "January Champion" anyway - when

 you come back, many of us will be shot from beating

 each other's brains out in February and March!). 

 About the dog and the dog owners - 

 First off, who hasn't been chased and/or come into contact

 with an animal of some kind? We all share the

 road - and not just with other cars. 

 Secondly, the owners of the dog in question are my

 neighbors. They are nice people who have a

 very nice home, horse ranch, and piece of property. They

 also have a tremendous amount of fencing - look at

 it sometime. They invested thousands of

 dollars into vinyl fencing along the road to keep their horses and their dogs free from interfering with cars, bikes,

 and pedestrians along the road. The one

 problem is that they have to get in and out of their

 property, so there must be a hole in the fence somewhere. And

 - having been chased by that dog many, may times

 myself - the dog sometimes cannot help itself but

 sneak down to the driveway and run into the road. 

 My point is, sometimes things just happen. We have a

 word for it: Accident. 

 What point is it to throw blame around? Blame the

 fencemakers for not sealing off every bit of the

 property. Blame the owner for not investing even more money into keeping their home separate from the

 neighborhood (maybe a wall enclosing the whole

 property would've been better?). Blame the dog

 for having the instincts to run after something. Blame the city for

 not building a barrier between road and home.

 

 My family and I have dogs. And we have fencing.

 And we try to keep our dogs off of Skyline for their

 safety and the safety of others. But if they happen to get out, through a series of unfortunate occances, and

 knock a rider off of their bike, are you going to

 reasonably say that me or my dog ought to be put

 down? 

 Let's focus our energies elsewhere - like wishing Ivan a

 speedy recovery. 

 Scott Powell Team Oregon

 Skyline Neighborhood Association 

 The new MSN 8: smart spam protection

 and 2 months FREE* <A

 href="http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail"

 target=" blank">http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail</A> 

 To respond to the whole group send to

 ob-@topica.com. To respond to the list manager send

 to ob-@teleport.com To unsubscribe send to

 obra-uns-@topica.com 

 To respond to the whole group send to

 ob-@topica.com. To respond to the list manager send

 to ob-@teleport.com To unsubscribe send to

 obra-uns-@topica.com 

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Lennis Herburger

2003-01-14

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how long are we going to beat this dead horse? why don't we just go ride

our bikes....

-----Original Message-----

From: Schreck, George [mailto:george.-@pacificorp.com]

Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:47 AM

To: pphar-@stoel.com; aka_s-@hotmail.com

Cc: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist injured...

Actually, when a dog attacks a person (and this was an attack), the response

is not sorry for the accident, not my fault. The owner of the dog is

responsible for the damages caused by the dog. I am the owner of a dog, and

am responsible for all actions of the dog. The owner must ensure that the

dog is confined at all times, and City ordinances do not permit dogs to run

loose. If the dog gets out of the fence, then it must be put on a chain.

Bike riders, runners and pedestrians should not be at risk. Frankly, if my

collarbone was broken and I was laid up for six weeks, the owner of the dog

would be paying me a substantial sum, and it is clear that they can afford

it. Dog owners do not have right superior to the rest of society, and

people have a right to legally go about their business without being

attacked by a dog. The owner has the absolute obligation to ensure that it

is so, and is liable for any failure to do so.

 George Schreck

 Phone: (503) 813-7211

 Fax: (503) 813-7190

-----Original Message-----

From: Hartigan, Patrick [ mailto:pphar-@stoel.com

<mailto:pphar-@stoel.com> ]

Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:03 AM

To: aka sco-@hotmail.com

Cc: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist injured...

You've got the wrong end of the stick, dear, or at least the wrong owners.

See the emails for Beth's account. Not to mention that legal statutes and

remedies apply.

That's kind of obvious, isn't it?

P. Hartigan

-----Original Message-----

From: Scott & Hilary [ mailto:aka <mailto:aka sco-@hotmail.com>

sco-@hotmail.com]

Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 10:37 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist injured...

Ivan - that bites, and I'm really sorry that you had to go down. Best of

luck for a speedy recovery. (Think of it this way, you would've had to race

against Magnus for "January Champion" anyway - when you come back, many of

us will be shot from beating each other's brains out in February and

March!).

About the dog and the dog owners -

First off, who hasn't been chased and/or come into contact with an animal of

some kind? We all share the road - and not just with other cars.

Secondly, the owners of the dog in question are my neighbors. They are nice

people who have a very nice home, horse ranch, and piece of property. They

also have a tremendous amount of fencing - look at it sometime. They

invested thousands of dollars into vinyl fencing along the road to keep

their horses and their dogs free from interfering with cars, bikes, and

pedestrians along the road. The one problem is that they have to get in and

out of their property, so there must be a hole in the fence somewhere. And

- having been chased by that dog many, may times myself - the dog sometimes

cannot help itself but sneak down to the driveway and run into the road.

My point is, sometimes things just happen. We have a word for it: Accident.

What point is it to throw blame around? Blame the fencemakers for not

sealing off every bit of the property. Blame the owner for not investing

even more money into keeping their home separate from the neighborhood

(maybe a wall enclosing the whole property would've been better?). Blame

the dog for having the instincts to run after something. Blame the city for

not building a barrier between road and home.

My family and I have dogs. And we have fencing. And we try to keep our

dogs off of Skyline for their safety and the safety of others. But if they

happen to get out, through a series of unfortunate occances, and knock a

rider off of their bike, are you going to reasonably say that me or my dog

ought to be put down?

Let's focus our energies elsewhere - like wishing Ivan a speedy recovery.

Scott Powell

Team Oregon

Skyline Neighborhood Association

The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*

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<TITLE>RE: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist injured...</TITLE>

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<DIV>how

long are we going to beat this dead horse? why don't we just go ride our

bikes....</DIV>

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<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left>-----Original Message----- From: Schreck, George

[mailto:george.-@pacificorp.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 14,

2003 11:47 AM To: pphar-@stoel.com;

aka_s-@hotmail.com Cc: ob-@topica.com Subject: RE:

[OBRA Chat] Cyclist injured... </DIV>

Actually, when a dog attacks a person (and this was an

attack), the response is not sorry for the accident, not my fault. The

owner of the dog is responsible for the damages caused by the dog. I am the

owner of a dog, and am responsible for all actions of the dog. The owner

must ensure that the dog is confined at all times, and City ordinances do not

permit dogs to run loose. If the dog gets out of the fence, then it must

be put on a chain. Bike riders, runners and pedestrians should not be at

risk. Frankly, if my collarbone was broken and I was laid up for six

weeks, the owner of the dog would be paying me a substantial sum, and it is

clear that they can afford it. Dog owners do not have right superior to

the rest of society, and people have a right to legally go about their

business without being attacked by a dog. The owner has the absolute

obligation to ensure that it is so, and is liable for any failure to do

so.

 George

Schreck Phone: (503)

813-7211 Fax: (503)

813-7190 



-----Original Message----- From:

Hartigan, Patrick [<A

href="mailto:pphar-@stoel.com">mailto:pphar-@stoel.com</A>]

 Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:03 AM To: aka sco-@hotmail.com Cc:

ob-@topica.com Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist

injured... 

You've got the wrong end of the stick, dear, or at least the

wrong owners. See the emails for Beth's account. Not to mention that legal

statutes and remedies apply. 

That's kind of obvious, isn't it? 

P. Hartigan 

-----Original Message----- From: Scott

& Hilary [<A href="mailto:aka sco-@hotmail.com">mailto:aka

sco-@hotmail.com</A>] Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003

10:37 AM To: ob-@topica.com Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist injured... 

Ivan - that bites, and I'm really sorry that you had to go

down. Best of luck for a speedy recovery.

(Think of it this way, you would've had to race against Magnus for "January Champion" anyway - when you come back, many

of us will be shot from beating each other's brains

out in February and March!). 

About the dog and the dog owners - 

First off, who hasn't been chased and/or come into contact

with an animal of some kind? We all share the

road - and not just with other cars. 

Secondly, the owners of the dog in question are my

neighbors. They are nice people who have a very

nice home, horse ranch, and piece of property. They also have a tremendous amount of fencing - look at it sometime.

They invested thousands of dollars into vinyl fencing

along the road to keep their horses and their dogs

free from interfering with cars, bikes, and pedestrians along the road. The one problem is that they have to

get in and out of their property, so there must be a

hole in the fence somewhere. And - having been

chased by that dog many, may times myself - the dog sometimes cannot help itself but sneak down to the driveway and run into the

road. 

My point is, sometimes things just happen. We have a

word for it: Accident. 

What point is it to throw blame around? Blame the

fencemakers for not sealing off every bit of the

property. Blame the owner for not investing even

more money into keeping their home separate from the neighborhood

 (maybe a wall enclosing the whole property would've

been better?). Blame the dog for having the

instincts to run after something. Blame the city for not building a barrier between road and home. 

My family and I have dogs. And we have fencing.

And we try to keep our dogs off of Skyline for their

safety and the safety of others. But if they happen to get out, through a series of unfortunate occances, and knock

a rider off of their bike, are you going to reasonably

say that me or my dog ought to be put down?



Let's focus our energies elsewhere - like wishing Ivan a

speedy recovery. 

Scott Powell Team Oregon

 Skyline Neighborhood Association 

 The new MSN 8: smart spam protection

and 2 months FREE* <A

href="http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail"

target=" blank">http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail</A> 

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 To respond to the list manager send to

ob-@teleport.com To unsubscribe send to

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To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

 To respond to the list manager send to

ob-@teleport.com To unsubscribe send to

obra-uns-@topica.com 

<PRE>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com</PRE>

------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This

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expressly approved by the sender or an authorized addressee, is

unauthorized. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure,

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PLEASE NOTE: This message, including any attachments, may include privileged, confidential and/or inside information. Any distribution or use of this communication by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by replying to this message and then delete it from your system. Thank you.

 

 

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Schreck, George

2003-01-14

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Actually, when a dog attacks a person (and this was an attack), the response

is not sorry for the accident, not my fault. The owner of the dog is

responsible for the damages caused by the dog. I am the owner of a dog, and

am responsible for all actions of the dog. The owner must ensure that the

dog is confined at all times, and City ordinances do not permit dogs to run

loose. If the dog gets out of the fence, then it must be put on a chain.

Bike riders, runners and pedestrians should not be at risk. Frankly, if my

collarbone was broken and I was laid up for six weeks, the owner of the dog

would be paying me a substantial sum, and it is clear that they can afford

it. Dog owners do not have right superior to the rest of society, and

people have a right to legally go about their business without being

attacked by a dog. The owner has the absolute obligation to ensure that it

is so, and is liable for any failure to do so.

 George Schreck

 Phone: (503) 813-7211

 Fax: (503) 813-7190

-----Original Message-----

From: Hartigan, Patrick [mailto:pphar-@stoel.com]

Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:03 AM

To: aka_s-@hotmail.com

Cc: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist injured...

You've got the wrong end of the stick, dear, or at least the wrong owners.

See the emails for Beth's account. Not to mention that legal statutes and

remedies apply.

That's kind of obvious, isn't it?

P. Hartigan

-----Original Message-----

From: Scott & Hilary [mailto:aka_s-@hotmail.com]

Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 10:37 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist injured...

Ivan - that bites, and I'm really sorry that you had to go down. Best of

luck for a speedy recovery. (Think of it this way, you would've had to race

against Magnus for "January Champion" anyway - when you come back, many of

us will be shot from beating each other's brains out in February and

March!).

About the dog and the dog owners -

First off, who hasn't been chased and/or come into contact with an animal of

some kind? We all share the road - and not just with other cars.

Secondly, the owners of the dog in question are my neighbors. They are nice

people who have a very nice home, horse ranch, and piece of property. They

also have a tremendous amount of fencing - look at it sometime. They

invested thousands of dollars into vinyl fencing along the road to keep

their horses and their dogs free from interfering with cars, bikes, and

pedestrians along the road. The one problem is that they have to get in and

out of their property, so there must be a hole in the fence somewhere. And

- having been chased by that dog many, may times myself - the dog sometimes

cannot help itself but sneak down to the driveway and run into the road.

My point is, sometimes things just happen. We have a word for it: Accident.

What point is it to throw blame around? Blame the fencemakers for not

sealing off every bit of the property. Blame the owner for not investing

even more money into keeping their home separate from the neighborhood

(maybe a wall enclosing the whole property would've been better?). Blame

the dog for having the instincts to run after something. Blame the city for

not building a barrier between road and home.

My family and I have dogs. And we have fencing. And we try to keep our

dogs off of Skyline for their safety and the safety of others. But if they

happen to get out, through a series of unfortunate occances, and knock a

rider off of their bike, are you going to reasonably say that me or my dog

ought to be put down?

Let's focus our energies elsewhere - like wishing Ivan a speedy recovery.

Scott Powell

Team Oregon

Skyline Neighborhood Association

_________________________________________________________________

The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*

http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

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Actually, when a dog attacks a person (and this was an attack), the response is not sorry for the accident, not my fault. The owner of the dog is responsible for the damages caused by the dog. I am the owner of a dog, and am responsible for all actions of the dog. The owner must ensure that the dog is confined at all times, and City ordinances do not permit dogs to run loose. If the dog gets out of the fence, then it must be put on a chain. Bike riders, runners and pedestrians should not be at risk. Frankly, if my collarbone was broken and I was laid up for six weeks, the owner of the dog would be paying me a substantial sum, and it is clear that they can afford it. Dog owners do not have right superior to the rest of society, and people have a right to legally go about their business without being attacked by a dog. The owner has the absolute obligation to ensure that it is so, and is liable for any failure to do so.

 George Schreck

 Phone: (503) 813-7211

 Fax: (503) 813-7190

 

 



-----Original Message-----

 From: Hartigan, Patrick [<A HREF="mailto:pphar-@stoel.com">mailto:pphar-@stoel.com</A>]

 Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:03 AM

 To: aka sco-@hotmail.com

 Cc: ob-@topica.com

 Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist injured...



 

You've got the wrong end of the stick, dear, or at least the wrong owners. See the emails for Beth's account. Not to mention that legal statutes and remedies apply. 

That's kind of obvious, isn't it?



P. Hartigan



 

-----Original Message-----

 From: Scott & Hilary [<A HREF="mailto:aka sco-@hotmail.com">mailto:aka sco-@hotmail.com</A>]

 Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 10:37 AM

 To: ob-@topica.com

 Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist injured...



 

 

Ivan - that bites, and I'm really sorry that you had to go down. Best of 

 luck for a speedy recovery. (Think of it this way, you would've had to race 

 against Magnus for "January Champion" anyway - when you come back, many of 

 us will be shot from beating each other's brains out in February and 

 March!).



About the dog and the dog owners -



First off, who hasn't been chased and/or come into contact with an animal of 

 some kind? We all share the road - and not just with other cars.



Secondly, the owners of the dog in question are my neighbors. They are nice 

 people who have a very nice home, horse ranch, and piece of property. They 

 also have a tremendous amount of fencing - look at it sometime. They 

 invested thousands of dollars into vinyl fencing along the road to keep 

 their horses and their dogs free from interfering with cars, bikes, and 

 pedestrians along the road. The one problem is that they have to get in and 

 out of their property, so there must be a hole in the fence somewhere. And 

 - having been chased by that dog many, may times myself - the dog sometimes 

 cannot help itself but sneak down to the driveway and run into the road.



My point is, sometimes things just happen. We have a word for it: Accident.



What point is it to throw blame around? Blame the fencemakers for not 

 sealing off every bit of the property. Blame the owner for not investing 

 even more money into keeping their home separate from the neighborhood 

 (maybe a wall enclosing the whole property would've been better?). Blame 

 the dog for having the instincts to run after something. Blame the city for 

 not building a barrier between road and home.



My family and I have dogs. And we have fencing. And we try to keep our 

 dogs off of Skyline for their safety and the safety of others. But if they 

 happen to get out, through a series of unfortunate occances, and knock a 

 rider off of their bike, are you going to reasonably say that me or my dog 

 ought to be put down?



Let's focus our energies elsewhere - like wishing Ivan a speedy recovery.



Scott Powell

 Team Oregon

 Skyline Neighborhood Association



 

 The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* 

 <A HREF="http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail" TARGET=" blank">http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail</A>



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

 To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

 To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



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 To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

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------_=_NextPart_001_01C2BC05.B042C760--

mike.m-@obra.org

2003-01-14

Scott Powell wrote:

"My family and I have dogs. And we have fencing. And we try to keep our

dogs off of Skyline for their safety and the safety of others. But if they

happen to get out, through a series of unfortunate occances, and knock a

rider off of their bike, are you going to reasonably say that me or my dog

ought to be put down?"

I do not care much one way or another about whether the dog is killed.

Actually I wouldn't care much if every loose dog was shot on sight. After

all, dogs are hardly an endangered species. I do recognize that my opinion

is different from many people's.

I would, however, say that you should be responsible for damages to someone

injured if your dog got out. The fact that it is difficult to restrain the

dog inside the property is not material. Discussions about the quality of

your neighbors fencing are pointless. They need a kennel. Dogs need to be

restrained always, not just most of the time.

An accident is "an unexpected happening causing loss or injury which is not

due to any fault or misconduct on the part of the person injured but for

which legal relief may be sought". Intent matters not.

Mike Murray

Hartigan, Patrick

2003-01-14

You've got the wrong end of the stick, dear, or at least the wrong owners. See the emails for Beth's account. Not to mention that legal statutes and remedies apply.

That's kind of obvious, isn't it?

P. Hartigan

-----Original Message-----

From: Scott & Hilary [mailto:aka_s-@hotmail.com]

Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 10:37 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist injured...

Ivan - that bites, and I'm really sorry that you had to go down. Best of

luck for a speedy recovery. (Think of it this way, you would've had to race

against Magnus for "January Champion" anyway - when you come back, many of

us will be shot from beating each other's brains out in February and

March!).

About the dog and the dog owners -

First off, who hasn't been chased and/or come into contact with an animal of

some kind? We all share the road - and not just with other cars.

Secondly, the owners of the dog in question are my neighbors. They are nice

people who have a very nice home, horse ranch, and piece of property. They

also have a tremendous amount of fencing - look at it sometime. They

invested thousands of dollars into vinyl fencing along the road to keep

their horses and their dogs free from interfering with cars, bikes, and

pedestrians along the road. The one problem is that they have to get in and

out of their property, so there must be a hole in the fence somewhere. And

- having been chased by that dog many, may times myself - the dog sometimes

cannot help itself but sneak down to the driveway and run into the road.

My point is, sometimes things just happen. We have a word for it: Accident.

What point is it to throw blame around? Blame the fencemakers for not

sealing off every bit of the property. Blame the owner for not investing

even more money into keeping their home separate from the neighborhood

(maybe a wall enclosing the whole property would've been better?). Blame

the dog for having the instincts to run after something. Blame the city for

not building a barrier between road and home.

My family and I have dogs. And we have fencing. And we try to keep our

dogs off of Skyline for their safety and the safety of others. But if they

happen to get out, through a series of unfortunate occances, and knock a

rider off of their bike, are you going to reasonably say that me or my dog

ought to be put down?

Let's focus our energies elsewhere - like wishing Ivan a speedy recovery.

Scott Powell

Team Oregon

Skyline Neighborhood Association

_________________________________________________________________

The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*

http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

Scott & Hilary

2003-01-14

Ivan - that bites, and I'm really sorry that you had to go down. Best of

luck for a speedy recovery. (Think of it this way, you would've had to race

against Magnus for "January Champion" anyway - when you come back, many of

us will be shot from beating each other's brains out in February and

March!).

About the dog and the dog owners -

First off, who hasn't been chased and/or come into contact with an animal of

some kind? We all share the road - and not just with other cars.

Secondly, the owners of the dog in question are my neighbors. They are nice

people who have a very nice home, horse ranch, and piece of property. They

also have a tremendous amount of fencing - look at it sometime. They

invested thousands of dollars into vinyl fencing along the road to keep

their horses and their dogs free from interfering with cars, bikes, and

pedestrians along the road. The one problem is that they have to get in and

out of their property, so there must be a hole in the fence somewhere. And

- having been chased by that dog many, may times myself - the dog sometimes

cannot help itself but sneak down to the driveway and run into the road.

My point is, sometimes things just happen. We have a word for it: Accident.

What point is it to throw blame around? Blame the fencemakers for not

sealing off every bit of the property. Blame the owner for not investing

even more money into keeping their home separate from the neighborhood

(maybe a wall enclosing the whole property would've been better?). Blame

the dog for having the instincts to run after something. Blame the city for

not building a barrier between road and home.

My family and I have dogs. And we have fencing. And we try to keep our

dogs off of Skyline for their safety and the safety of others. But if they

happen to get out, through a series of unfortunate occances, and knock a

rider off of their bike, are you going to reasonably say that me or my dog

ought to be put down?

Let's focus our energies elsewhere - like wishing Ivan a speedy recovery.

Scott Powell

Team Oregon

Skyline Neighborhood Association

_________________________________________________________________

The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*

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Shelka

2003-01-13

Maybe i'm missing something here,

BUT am I the only one who swings his pump at a dogs

head with great "Pollo Pony finess" I've only had to

replace my pump once so far. On account of good contact.

__________________________________________________

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mike.m-@obra.org

2003-01-13

Because it is easier to kill dogs then it is to kill people, from multiple

points of view.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----

From: Jay Martineau [mailto:jmart-@earthlink.net]

Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 11:44 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist injured...

You might want to see about getting that dog put down.

Why is it that when an unattended dog follows it's prey instinct and chases

something on the run people say this type of thing?

Kill the owner for not properly caring for it's pet.

Jay Martineau

----- Original Message -----

From: "Pfeifle, Hank" <Hank.P-@colehaan.com>

To: <Ivan.C.-@intel.com>; "'Dav-@Hevanet.Com'" <Dav-@hevanet.com>;

<ob-@topica.com>

Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 11:09 AM

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist injured...

Hey, Ivan,

You might want to see about getting that dog put down. It sounds like the

same one that attacked Steve Wright about 2 years ago and put a huge bite

into Steve's thigh.

Hank

-----Original Message-----

From: Meadors, Ivan C [mailto:Ivan.C.-@intel.com]

Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 12:28 PM

To: 'Dav-@Hevanet.Com'; ob-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist injured...

Details pertaining to the cyclist/dog incident on Skyline, Saturday

morning,

January. 11;

I (Ivan Meadors) was riding with a group of Corben-HuntAir team-mates

including

Ron Magnus, Ron Feldman, Mike Mauch, Beth Whittaker plus a couple of other

cyclists; Jan Moss & Dean Lucas. We had climbed up Thompson and were

heading

west

on Skyline, looking forward to a training ride on a dry morning. As we

approached

Springville Rd, where Skyline descends then has a short intermediate

length

climb,

Mike and Dean rolled off the front by about 20 meters. Ron M, Ron F and

myself

accelerated to take advantage of the downhill. As we approached the red

barn, just

prior to where Springville Road intersects Skyline, a large shepherd dog

came charging

out from either the corner of the barn or beneath the fence. I think Ron F

was in front

of me and I remember seeing the dog only for a second or less. None of us

had a chance

to issue a warning; it appeared that the dog was intent on coming right

into

me, almost

as if it had been laying in wait to attack the bike. It was about an 80

pound dog, so when

it hit the front wheel (the dog ended up with scratches on it's nose/face,

suggesting

to me that it only contacted the wheel from the side) there was little

hope

for me

to remain upright. I somersaulted and impacted on my left shoulder blade,

at

which point

I felt/heard the clavicle/collar-bone break, followed by impacting the

back

of my helmet

on the road surface (I felt the helmet bouncing twice on the surface). I

slid for a ways,

then I either rolled off the road surface or was assisted from the road (a

brief moment

of obscurity) to the gravel on the edge. Fortunately, the riders in our

group included

two people from the medical industry (thanks Jan Moss & Dean Lucas), who

provided proper

recommendations and support. And of course, the 911 cell-phone call by Ron

!

The neighbors

in the area provided blankets and support and the dog's owner was notified

(thanks Beth).

The ambulance picked me up and that's the end of the story for about 6

weeks.

A touch of deja vu: the ambulance driver was the same one who had reacted

to

the last

call (11 years ago) for a cycling accident on Skyline in which I was

involved (but that

time it was only as an observer, not a victim).

Thank you to those who helped and to those who sent their regards ...

See you in 6 weeks

-----Original Message-----

From: David Auker [mailto:Dav-@Hevanet.Com]

Sent: Saturday, January 11, 2003 3:36 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist injured...

In another incident, today my riding group came upon some cyclists

standing

alongside Skyline, near Thompson. One was lying down, partially covered

with blankets. Ivan Meadors evidently collided with a dog, and from what

he

said, it sounds like he injured his clavicle. He was being assisted by

the

rest of his group and at least one other person (I couldn't tell if he was

a

motorist or a resident of the area). A fire truck and ambulance arrived

shortly.

I'm thankful/hopeful it wasn't too severe an accident, as it was on a

downhill stretch.

I trust I haven't invaded Ivan's privacy by reporting this! We look

forward

to hearing details on his recovery!

Be careful out there!

David A.

----

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist injured...

Hi. I just read this. Was anyone else on the obra list riding with him

in

that group? Is that really how it happened? Anyone have contact info?

http://www.registerguard.com/news/2003/01/11/1b.cr.bikecrash.0111.html

-Chris

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

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Edward Lanton

2003-01-13

--0-1180192122-1042499271=:26778

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

They shoot viruses, don't they?

"Hartigan, Patrick" <pphar-@stoel.com> wrote:Yeah! --and how about all those poor defenseless viruses out there! It's not their fault that they infect and kill people!

P. Hartigan

-----Original Message-----

From: Jeff McNamee [mailto:mcna-@onid.orst.edu]

Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 11:47 AM

To: jmart-@earthlink.net; ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist injured...

I second that!! It's not the dog's fault!!

Jeff McNamee

Graduate Assistant

Oregon State University

Exercise and Sport Science

Women's Building 004

Corvallis, OR 97330

Phone: 541-737-5932

Fax: 541-737-6613

----- Original Message -----

From: Jay Martineau

To: ob-@topica.com

Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 11:44 AM

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist injured...

You might want to see about getting that dog put down.

Why is it that when an unattended dog follows it's prey instinct and chases

something on the run people say this type of thing?

Kill the owner for not properly caring for it's pet.

Jay Martineau

----- Original Message -----

From: "Pfeifle, Hank"

To: ; "'Dav-@Hevanet.Com'" ;

Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 11:09 AM

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist injured...

Hey, Ivan,

You might want to see about getting that dog put down. It sounds like the

same one that attacked Steve Wright about 2 years ago and put a huge bite

into Steve's thigh.

Hank

-----Original Message-----

From: Meadors, Ivan C [mailto:Ivan.C.-@intel.com]

Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 12:28 PM

To: 'Dav-@Hevanet.Com'; ob-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist injured...

Details pertaining to the cyclist/dog incident on Skyline, Saturday