Candi Murray

This is slightly off topic. But AMR has a program where you pay a yearly
fee, I believe it is $50-75, and they will waive all the fees not covered
by your insurance. Life Flight has a similar program.

Candi

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Andrew Osborn
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 10:34 AM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Hit from behind. What now?

I attended a cyclist traffic planning session long ago where I met the
current Portland Traffic Police captain (whose name I now forget). He
reiterated the 'no police report without an ambulance ride' guideline. I
mentioned to him that the guideline presumed that both drivers had insurance
(mostly true these days) and that the insurance companies would settle up
later. However, I pointed out, a cyclist is not required to have insurance
and many of us have none. Those who do may only have renter's or
homeowner's insurance, and the claims departments for those types of
policies are not used to duking it out with auto claims departments.
Therefore, many cyclists that are hit by cars but not injured enough to be
taken away in an ambulance, are left entirely on their own (without even the
benefit of a police report) to recover losses through dubious small claims
actions.

The captain was quite sympathetic and said he'd never realized this
predicament and vowed to do what he could to get the police to more bike/car
incidents. Whether this is actually happening or not, I felt like his
response was sincere, and perhaps more lobbying by those in touch with the
police administrative types would reinforce the message.

Andrew

_____

From: Mike Murray
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Hit from behind. What now?

The protocol for sending an ambulance is that one will go if anyone requests
it. If a 911 call is made one will be sent unless the caller is extremely
specific that they do not have any injury, do not wish to have an ambulance
called and insist that it is a police matter only. Even in this situation
the police may still call for an ambulance as they are not charged with
evaluating injuries. In the Portland area, and many other areas where there
is a tiered response, this means that not only a transport ambulance company
will be dispatched but also a fire first responding agency will be sent.
AMR has a company policy to transport all patients they have contact with
unless the patient refuses. You should not expect that the transporting
ambulance company will provide any evaluation as to the need for transport.
Only recently has there been any movement towards alternatives to the
"transport everyone" policy. Currently that is focused on high utilizers
and others that are frankly using EMS inappropriately.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Steve Scarich
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 07:37
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Hit from behind. What now?

Mike's reply does raise an interesting question. By the way, I was not
advocating lying in the street for a minor scratch or bent wheel. I was
saying that if you really think you are injured, or your bike is wrecked,
then you want the police to come. I've always wondered what the protocol is
for sending EMT's or an ambulance. It sounds like Mike is saying that 911
will send an ambulance if they have deemed an accident serious enough to
send a police officer. I do admit that I have seen an ambulance at the
scene of a minor bike accident here in Bend, where the police were taking a
report. I do not want to see public resources tied up for trivial
incidents. Back when I was an insurance adjustor, I told my policyholders
to always carry a camera (Now, virtually every phone has a camera built in).
Take pictures of the accident scene immediately, indicating the position of
the involved vehicles and the condition of your bike, so you have some
record of what happened. Otherwise, it'
s just' he said, she said'.
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Andrew Osborn

I attended a cyclist traffic planning session long ago where I met the current Portland Traffic Police captain (whose name I now forget).  He reiterated the 'no police report without an ambulance ride' guideline.  I mentioned to him that the guideline presumed that both drivers had insurance (mostly true these days) and that the insurance companies would settle up later.  However, I pointed out, a cyclist is not required to have insurance and many of us have none.  Those who do may only have renter's or homeowner's insurance, and the claims departments for those types of policies are not used to duking it out with auto claims departments.  Therefore, many cyclists that are hit by cars but not injured enough to be taken away in an ambulance, are left entirely on their own (without even the benefit of a police report) to recover losses through dubious small claims actions.

The captain was quite sympathetic and said he'd never realized this predicament and vowed to do what he could to get the police to more bike/car incidents.  Whether this is actually happening or not, I felt like his response was sincere, and perhaps more lobbying by those in touch with the police administrative types would reinforce the message.

Andrew

________________________________
From: Mike Murray
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Hit from behind. What now?

The protocol for sending an ambulance is that one will go if anyone requests
it.  If a 911 call is made one will be sent unless the caller is extremely
specific that they do not have any injury, do not wish to have an ambulance
called and insist that it is a police matter only.  Even in this situation
the police may still call for an ambulance as they are not charged with
evaluating injuries. In the Portland area, and many other areas where there
is a tiered response, this means that not only a transport ambulance company
will be dispatched but also a fire first responding agency will be sent.
AMR has a company policy to transport all patients they have contact with
unless the patient refuses.  You should not expect that the transporting
ambulance company will provide any evaluation as to the need for transport.
Only recently has there been any movement towards alternatives to the
"transport everyone" policy.  Currently that is focused on high utilizers
and others that are frankly using EMS inappropriately.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Steve Scarich
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 07:37
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Hit from behind. What now?

Mike's reply does raise an interesting question. By the way, I was not
advocating lying in the street for a minor scratch or bent wheel.  I was
saying that if you really think you are injured, or your bike is wrecked,
then you want the police to come.  I've always wondered what the protocol is
for sending EMT's or an ambulance.  It sounds like Mike is saying that 911
will send an ambulance if they have deemed an accident serious enough to
send a police officer.  I do admit that I have seen an ambulance at the
scene of a minor bike accident here in Bend, where the police were taking a
report.  I do not want to see public resources tied up for trivial
incidents.  Back when I was an insurance adjustor, I told my policyholders
to always carry a camera (Now, virtually every phone has a camera built in).
Take pictures of the accident scene immediately, indicating the position of
the involved vehicles and the condition of your bike, so you have some
record of what happened.  Otherwise, it'
s just' he said, she said'.
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Mike Murray

The protocol for sending an ambulance is that one will go if anyone requests
it. If a 911 call is made one will be sent unless the caller is extremely
specific that they do not have any injury, do not wish to have an ambulance
called and insist that it is a police matter only. Even in this situation
the police may still call for an ambulance as they are not charged with
evaluating injuries. In the Portland area, and many other areas where there
is a tiered response, this means that not only a transport ambulance company
will be dispatched but also a fire first responding agency will be sent.
AMR has a company policy to transport all patients they have contact with
unless the patient refuses. You should not expect that the transporting
ambulance company will provide any evaluation as to the need for transport.
Only recently has there been any movement towards alternatives to the
"transport everyone" policy. Currently that is focused on high utilizers
and others that are frankly using EMS inappropriately.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Steve Scarich
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 07:37
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Hit from behind. What now?

Mike's reply does raise an interesting question. By the way, I was not
advocating lying in the street for a minor scratch or bent wheel. I was
saying that if you really think you are injured, or your bike is wrecked,
then you want the police to come. I've always wondered what the protocol is
for sending EMT's or an ambulance. It sounds like Mike is saying that 911
will send an ambulance if they have deemed an accident serious enough to
send a police officer. I do admit that I have seen an ambulance at the
scene of a minor bike accident here in Bend, where the police were taking a
report. I do not want to see public resources tied up for trivial
incidents. Back when I was an insurance adjustor, I told my policyholders
to always carry a camera (Now, virtually every phone has a camera built in).
Take pictures of the accident scene immediately, indicating the position of
the involved vehicles and the condition of your bike, so you have some
record of what happened. Otherwise, it'
s just' he said, she said'.
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Steve Scarich

Mike's reply does raise an interesting question. By the way, I was not advocating lying in the street for a minor scratch or bent wheel. I was saying that if you really think you are injured, or your bike is wrecked, then you want the police to come. I've always wondered what the protocol is for sending EMT's or an ambulance. It sounds like Mike is saying that 911 will send an ambulance if they have deemed an accident serious enough to send a police officer. I do admit that I have seen an ambulance at the scene of a minor bike accident here in Bend, where the police were taking a report. I do not want to see public resources tied up for trivial incidents. Back when I was an insurance adjustor, I told my policyholders to always carry a camera (Now, virtually every phone has a camera built in). Take pictures of the accident scene immediately, indicating the position of the involved vehicles and the condition of your bike, so you have some record of what happened. Otherwise, it'
s just' he said, she said'.

Mike Murray

The counter point to this is that just because you are transported by ambulance it doesn't make it so that the driver and/or his insurance is obligated to pay for your losses. They have to either be found liable or accept liability. If you are transported by ambulance now your losses are much greater. If your only loss is a front wheel it is likely that someone will give you a few hundred bucks even if they don't think they are liable. If you add a few thousand $ in ambulance and hospital medical costs the equation changes.

Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Scarich
Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 07:23:05
To:
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Hit from behind. What now?

You're dreaming if you think the police will respond to every accident. Over 10 year's ago, I was right-hooked by a commercial truck driver on a city street in Eugene. Luckily, because of my superior bike-handling skills, I bunny-hopped the curb, then crashed into the vegetation in front of a business. The driver did stop, gave me his cell-phone and I called 911. The operator asked "are you lying in the street?" I said "No, I was only scratched up a bit, but my front wheel was tacoed". She said that nobody would respond then, it was between me and the driver, and hung up on me. True story. Luckily, the owner of the business was a stand-up guy and paid for a new wheel. I would actually recommend, that if you think you might be hurt, or have major bike damage, stay lying down in the street (protected by a parked car or something), and demand that the police respond, because you are injured. Make a big deal about it, because, in my experience, once a driver is allowed the leav
e the scene, I can almost guarantee their version of the accident will change, and not to your benefit.
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Steve Scarich

You're dreaming if you think the police will respond to every accident. Over 10 year's ago, I was right-hooked by a commercial truck driver on a city street in Eugene. Luckily, because of my superior bike-handling skills, I bunny-hopped the curb, then crashed into the vegetation in front of a business. The driver did stop, gave me his cell-phone and I called 911. The operator asked "are you lying in the street?" I said "No, I was only scratched up a bit, but my front wheel was tacoed". She said that nobody would respond then, it was between me and the driver, and hung up on me. True story. Luckily, the owner of the business was a stand-up guy and paid for a new wheel. I would actually recommend, that if you think you might be hurt, or have major bike damage, stay lying down in the street (protected by a parked car or something), and demand that the police respond, because you are injured. Make a big deal about it, because, in my experience, once a driver is allowed the leav
e the scene, I can almost guarantee their version of the accident will change, and not to your benefit.