I remember when .... I started in the late 80s, Nike/Team O was my idea of the dream team back then. I didn’t mean to specifically call you out as not understanding the pointy end of the race.
Regardless of who won more, we have been around the block and I think we all agree that the faster race is better at the end. And to do that requires a proper leadout. A proper leadout will crush the ability of most racers to pedal, and holding their line is likely the only thing they can do and even that is hard with riders buzzing and yelling at you. Going forward will not be their thing and if they move over too far or too quickly to get out of the way they could just as easily cause other issues with other trains. Hitting the breaks or intentionally swerving should be a DQ for sure if not a one month suspension if found intentional, 1st offense or not. I have had both happen to me and I let the rider know in each case that I expected to never see it again.
My point is that you can’t punish a rider for coasting the last 500 meters of a race, even if they were in 1st place with 500 meters to go. It is the responsibility of the rider in 20th trying to move up or hold their spot to go around anything in front of them is my second point. I would agree with the others here that itis also the responsibility of the riders in front to hold their line as best they can regardless of if they are moving up or back in the pack during the sprint.
Leadouts at PIR are one of the easiest thing for team leaders to teach their younger racers and make them feel like part of the team. What better way to help your faster more experienced rider win a race than participate in the leadout, we should encourage this and we should expect these typically less experienced riders to make mistakes. This is done by educating those in 20th place to pay attention and expect riders falling back quickly. This is best done at PIR.
You will see me move from the front of the group to the back of the group and from the back to the front at least 4 or 5 teams each race. I typically do it in a very short amount of time and typically on either side of the sprint laps. I do my best to move to the side, but that is not always possible, so on the other occasions I just hold my line as best I can. I want to encourage others to learn to do this safely and feel just as comfortable as I do moving forwards and backwards in the group.
Jamie
From: Mike Murray
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2014 5:51 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Yes you are missing something; the perspective of the sprinting in from 20 places back. Now you could say that they don't count because the are never going to win but that is not quite fair. Trying to get in the top 10 may be the most they are hoping for. Perhaps they are 60 years old, have had a heart attack and are really just trying to remember when they were fast. (BTW, I have to point out that I came in 27th on Monday, 2 places in front of Jamie.)
I am not discouraging lead outs. They are an essential part of bike racing. PIR is a great place to do them. I am just saying they have to be done safely. Properly done lead outs will make finishes safer because they will string out the field. Going not particularly fast, not getting to the front, not stringing out the field and then stopping in the middle of the field is not safe and really doesn't accomplish much beyond adding risk.
For the record, although I may have ridden a lot more races than Jamie has, he has won lots more than I have. Unfortunately there are not so many people who have been around long enough to remember me winning races.
Mike Murray
Sent from mobile device
On May 14, 2014, at 15:29, velodad@comcast.net wrote:
Am I missing something here, or are two many people who are not typically at the front end of the race making comments about something that would actually cause the race to be much more dangerous?
Leadouts are a critical part of the PIR experience and PIR is 100% the place to both practice these leadouts and have your leadout guys fall back through the field. If we don’t have leadouts the 10 plus guys with a decent shot to win will be jammed up all together and passing around the corners before the straight even starts. Going 25 into the corner is the most dangerous thing possible with less than 1k to go in a race. Everyone thinks they can win and everyone is looking to get out of the box.
A proper leadout takes us into the corner closer to 30 mph, and that guy is going to be blown after the corner and need to go back. The next guy needs to get us to closer to 35 or more and again he isn’t going to make it anywhere near the line unless his name is Steven Beardsley. After that it is a mad dash, all during this time there is often some side to side float which is to be mostly expected. And this is just one leadout, often there are two or even three leadouts since the course is so wide.
Every mile an hour you slow down the race you encourage more side to side movement and more aggressive and stupid riding. We have 4 wide lanes of safe pavement, if that is not the place to have 3 or 4 guys floating backwards in the group, I don’t know what is. To me it is the guy blindly sprinting for 20th and getting mad at the guy who just pulled the group that needs to pay attention. And with 4 lanes they should have more than enough space to go around any floaters.
Please do not discourage leadouts, you will see far more carnage.
Sent from Windows Mail
From: Mike Murray
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2014 10:18 AM
To: obra@list.obra.org
There is such a strategy but it is, as you have noted, unnecessarily
dangerous. This is primarily because the people doing the lead out do it
incorrectly. It is dangerous to lead out your rider and then sit up and
slow considerably in the middle of the field. It might benefit your rider
but that might be because multiple riders behind are blocked and possible
several, including the lead out man, end up on the deck. If you think that
is incorrect then imagine essentially the same scenario but instead of just
slowing the lead out man puts on his brakes. Clearly that is wrong but the
effect in a fast moving field is essentially the same. An appropriate lead
out will take the sprinter nearly all the way to the line. If the lead out
rider pulls off earlier than that it will be from the front and it will
involve a gradual movement to the side and out of the way of the filed
before slowing significantly. Pulling hard and then sitting up in the
middle of the field, which happens frequently at PIR, is a dangerous and
inappropriate practice. Trying to stop people from doing this or penalizing
them for dangerous riding is difficult to impossible for the officials. It
is important that people learn not to do this.
Mike Murray
-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Michael
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2014 09:34 AM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Sprinting strategy?
This is probably a 'newbie' question, but is there an intentional strategy
that would have riders (sharing a team) set up a teammate for the final
sprint, and then fall back hard into the field? Specifically in last nights
PIR 3/4 race, the final sprint seemed to be a (dangerous) obstacle course of
people either gassing out, or dropping back (quickly!) into the field...
If it's true, it seems like a dangerous and unnecessary practice for a PIR
3/4 weekday race, IMO.
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