OBRA: OBRA Chat: PIR 4/5 Neutralizing.

Matthew Curry

2014-06-26

Exactly my reason for starting the discussion, Adam, Candi--when the rule
is fully understood we can just race and not think about it. That's the
goal.

Thanks,

MC

On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 12:36 PM, Matthew Curry
wrote:

>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: michael medina
> Date: Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 12:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] PIR 4/5 Neutralizing.
> To: Matthew Curry
>
>
> I didn't mean to reply all, but you can forward it. I didn't think I had
> much to add ttytt.
>
> Michael
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 12:29 PM, Matthew Curry
> wrote:
>
>> Hey Mike,
>>
>> Yeah, it's awesome getting the perspective of a racer in the 123 break.
>>
>> Did you mean to reply all to that? Or could I forward this to the group?
>> I think it's a good perspective.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> MC
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 12:10 PM, michael medina
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Interesting interpretation of the neutralization rule, I hadn't thought
>>> about breakaways not needing neutral.
>>>
>>> I was in the 123 break Monday night and we came up on the other field
>>> before the back straightaway on our bell lap (I think). It was a mess,
>>> some people neutralized but really we had to thread the needle, people were
>>> scattered all over the place in ones and twos. I've actually never seen it
>>> that spread out. This is a case where the track is more than wide enough
>>> for everyone, but somehow, it wasn't this time.
>>>
>>> I don't know what lap the other field was on so maybe it was their bell
>>> too and maybe this is why there was confusion. But we did approach them on
>>> the left hand bend (turn 2?) and then passed in and just after the sharp
>>> right (3?). The problem here is the snaking around for those turns as well
>>> as the next bend in the track that causes a squeeze.
>>>
>>> It sounds like some people in the other field feel cheated by the
>>> actions of their compatriots, I don't know what happened there, I just know
>>> what we did. It was just bad timing in a bad spot really, gonna happen
>>> here and there.
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> OBRA mailing list
>>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

Candi Murray

2014-06-26

amen

-----Original Message-----
From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Adam
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 12:38 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] PIR 4/5 Neutralizing.

I really don't understand what's so confusing about this concept. If you are getting passed by riders from another field, you get out of the way. Doesn't matter how many riders are passing you.
Stfu, worry about your racing, and let the officials worry about lap counts and cheaters.
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Adam

2014-06-26

I really don't understand what's so confusing about this concept. If you are getting passed by riders from another field, you get out of the way. Doesn't matter how many riders are passing you.
Stfu, worry about your racing, and let the officials worry about lap counts and cheaters.

Matthew Curry

2014-06-26

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: michael medina
Date: Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 12:32 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] PIR 4/5 Neutralizing.
To: Matthew Curry

I didn't mean to reply all, but you can forward it. I didn't think I had
much to add ttytt.

Michael

On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 12:29 PM, Matthew Curry
wrote:

> Hey Mike,
>
> Yeah, it's awesome getting the perspective of a racer in the 123 break.
>
> Did you mean to reply all to that? Or could I forward this to the group?
> I think it's a good perspective.
>
> Best,
>
> MC
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 12:10 PM, michael medina
> wrote:
>
>> Interesting interpretation of the neutralization rule, I hadn't thought
>> about breakaways not needing neutral.
>>
>> I was in the 123 break Monday night and we came up on the other field
>> before the back straightaway on our bell lap (I think). It was a mess,
>> some people neutralized but really we had to thread the needle, people were
>> scattered all over the place in ones and twos. I've actually never seen it
>> that spread out. This is a case where the track is more than wide enough
>> for everyone, but somehow, it wasn't this time.
>>
>> I don't know what lap the other field was on so maybe it was their bell
>> too and maybe this is why there was confusion. But we did approach them on
>> the left hand bend (turn 2?) and then passed in and just after the sharp
>> right (3?). The problem here is the snaking around for those turns as well
>> as the next bend in the track that causes a squeeze.
>>
>> It sounds like some people in the other field feel cheated by the actions
>> of their compatriots, I don't know what happened there, I just know what we
>> did. It was just bad timing in a bad spot really, gonna happen here and
>> there.
>>
>> Michael
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>
>>
>>
>

Matthew Curry

2014-06-26

I think the point of contention was whether or not the 4/5 field has to
neutralize for the 123 break.

On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 11:46 AM, Candi Murray wrote:

> Matt
> David IS an official.
> However the statement below is wrong. Even the breakaway must neutralize.
> Nothing about being off the front makes it so that they do not have to race
> according to a different set of rules.
> Candi
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Matt C.
> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 11:18 AM
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] PIR 4/5 Neutralizing.
>
> Hi Monday Night PIR Cat 4/5ers.
>
> Since there have been at least 5 or 6 emails now on this topic, I'd like
> to add my 2 cents. I would also encourage a further discussion on this
> topic and I'd like to hear more from officials and long-time racers.
>
> First off, we all know neutralizing is unique to the 4/5 race on Mondays
> and the 3/4 race on Tuesdays. I think we can all generally agree that it
> exists for safety, and the neutral should be as quick and as smooth as
> possible to allow for the continuation of the race. I think we can also
> agree that it is a unique feature to those races and provides racers who
> are trying to compete (that's all of us, right?) a legal way to break away
> from the group, granted you are a rider strong enough to create and hold
> the gap. It is similar to a big hill in a race, if you are 120 lbs. and
> the rest of the field are sprinters...you will attack that hill and play to
> your strengths and the advantages of the course.
>
> I'll talk about how neutralizing was defined to me based on a conversation
> with David Hart: "The field that is being overtaken will neutral to the
> other field. You don't neutral for a breakaway catching you. If you are in
> a breakaway and the overtaking field is passing, you don't neutral. There
> is PLENTY of room to pass when there is breakaway/field or field/breakaway.
> If you heard a bell, it rules so we don't take away a hot spot after we
> bell. That's a rule."
>
> Now, David is not an official, and I have had the opportunity to speak
> with Jordan about how he sees the neutralization rule play out at PIR.
> Jordan generally agrees with David's interpretation--but does add that
> when your field calls neutral--you should go with the majority.
> However, when Jordan was RACING with the 3/4 group on Tuesday and the
> group called neutral as the 123 break was catching us, we turned and saw
> that the field was not even through the 1st turn as we were finishing the
> 3rd and entering the back straight. The 123 field was EXACTLY in the same
> position as it was on monday night. Jordan and 1/2 of the pack disagreed
> with the call and CONTINUED RACING.
>
> This suggests to me that there is some confusion still on whether or not
> to neutral for the 123 break. My information says do not.
>
> Now, to be more specific about Monday night. When neutral is called and
> riders are off the front, (within earshot) they don't gain an advantage by
> soft pedalling and slowly letting themselves be dragged back into the
> group. Don't assume people are trying to sneak away just because they
> don't come right back to the pack. No harm, no foul.
> Second, more specific on the breakaway with 2 laps to go. I turned and
> saw the 123 field at least 2 turns away. I disagreed with the neutral. It
> seems to me many others did too, because there was a chase group behind the
> 3 riders in the break. In fact, the 3 breakaway riders crossed the finish
> line with 1 to go at the same time as the small 123 break (and the track is
> so wide, it was absolutely safe). We were never caught by the 123 field.
>
> So, correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying that our 3 man breakaway
> took off with the 123 field bearing down on us and we not only beat them to
> the finish line, we nearly passed their break that had nearly half a lap on
> them? And if so, doesn't that indicate that our field was probably capable
> of the same thing and could easily have continued racing and not
> neutralized, because there was no immediate danger?
>
> I think it's also important to point out that calling neutral is a
> strategy in and of it's own. If you see riders going for it with 2 to go
> and you're totally gassed, going neutral sure would sound nice, wouldn't it?
>
> Also, I would like to call into question the notion that sticking a break
> that lasts until the 123s pass is easy, or "cheating". How many of you
> have actually tried it? How many of you try to create breakaways and avoid
> just sitting in? I can assure you it is not easy. Some of you already
> know how hard it is and what it feels like to be at threshold for multiple
> laps. For those that don't, try it out next time and let me know how easy
> it is.
>
> I was honestly shocked to see and hear a barrage of email complaints after
> what was one of the hardest races I've ever done and I'm sorry if anyone
> thought I made it look easy, because it wasn't.
>
> I for one want to see more racing and less neutralizing at PIR, it is an
> unfortunate side-effect of limited time and a need for safety on what is an
> inexplicably crash-prone course.
>
> I'm glad you guys have kicked up this "debate" and have a forum to voice
> your frustrations, I hope I've been successful in providing an alternate
> point of view. I, for one, can't wait to be on the other side of the
> neutrals....I hope to see some of you there with me one of these upcoming
> weeks.
>
> I hope if David and Jordan read this, they will respond if they feel
> misrepresented in any way---and I apologize in advance for using your
> names, I only wanted to lend some authority to my decisions and
> interpretations of the Neutral Rule.
>
> I'd also be happy to talk about this stuff in person with any one of you
> guys the next time I'm out on a Monday or Tuesday. I wrote this quickly
> and I hope the overall message comes through and it is not lost on any
> particular choice of word or sentence.
>
> Happy Racing,
>
> Matt Curry
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
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> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2014.0.4714 / Virus Database: 3986/7748 - Release Date: 06/26/14
>
>

Candi Murray

2014-06-26

Matt
David IS an official.
However the statement below is wrong. Even the breakaway must neutralize. Nothing about being off the front makes it so that they do not have to race according to a different set of rules.
Candi

-----Original Message-----
From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Matt C.
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 11:18 AM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] PIR 4/5 Neutralizing.

Hi Monday Night PIR Cat 4/5ers.

Since there have been at least 5 or 6 emails now on this topic, I'd like to add my 2 cents. I would also encourage a further discussion on this topic and I'd like to hear more from officials and long-time racers.

First off, we all know neutralizing is unique to the 4/5 race on Mondays and the 3/4 race on Tuesdays. I think we can all generally agree that it exists for safety, and the neutral should be as quick and as smooth as possible to allow for the continuation of the race. I think we can also agree that it is a unique feature to those races and provides racers who are trying to compete (that's all of us, right?) a legal way to break away from the group, granted you are a rider strong enough to create and hold the gap. It is similar to a big hill in a race, if you are 120 lbs. and the rest of the field are sprinters...you will attack that hill and play to your strengths and the advantages of the course.

I'll talk about how neutralizing was defined to me based on a conversation with David Hart: "The field that is being overtaken will neutral to the other field. You don't neutral for a breakaway catching you. If you are in a breakaway and the overtaking field is passing, you don't neutral. There is PLENTY of room to pass when there is breakaway/field or field/breakaway. If you heard a bell, it rules so we don't take away a hot spot after we bell. That's a rule."

Now, David is not an official, and I have had the opportunity to speak with Jordan about how he sees the neutralization rule play out at PIR. Jordan generally agrees with David's interpretation--but does add that when your field calls neutral--you should go with the majority.
However, when Jordan was RACING with the 3/4 group on Tuesday and the group called neutral as the 123 break was catching us, we turned and saw that the field was not even through the 1st turn as we were finishing the 3rd and entering the back straight. The 123 field was EXACTLY in the same position as it was on monday night. Jordan and 1/2 of the pack disagreed with the call and CONTINUED RACING.

This suggests to me that there is some confusion still on whether or not to neutral for the 123 break. My information says do not.

Now, to be more specific about Monday night. When neutral is called and riders are off the front, (within earshot) they don't gain an advantage by soft pedalling and slowly letting themselves be dragged back into the group. Don't assume people are trying to sneak away just because they don't come right back to the pack. No harm, no foul.
Second, more specific on the breakaway with 2 laps to go. I turned and saw the 123 field at least 2 turns away. I disagreed with the neutral. It seems to me many others did too, because there was a chase group behind the 3 riders in the break. In fact, the 3 breakaway riders crossed the finish line with 1 to go at the same time as the small 123 break (and the track is so wide, it was absolutely safe). We were never caught by the 123 field.

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying that our 3 man breakaway took off with the 123 field bearing down on us and we not only beat them to the finish line, we nearly passed their break that had nearly half a lap on them? And if so, doesn't that indicate that our field was probably capable of the same thing and could easily have continued racing and not neutralized, because there was no immediate danger?

I think it's also important to point out that calling neutral is a strategy in and of it's own. If you see riders going for it with 2 to go and you're totally gassed, going neutral sure would sound nice, wouldn't it?

Also, I would like to call into question the notion that sticking a break that lasts until the 123s pass is easy, or "cheating". How many of you have actually tried it? How many of you try to create breakaways and avoid just sitting in? I can assure you it is not easy. Some of you already know how hard it is and what it feels like to be at threshold for multiple laps. For those that don't, try it out next time and let me know how easy it is.

I was honestly shocked to see and hear a barrage of email complaints after what was one of the hardest races I've ever done and I'm sorry if anyone thought I made it look easy, because it wasn't.

I for one want to see more racing and less neutralizing at PIR, it is an unfortunate side-effect of limited time and a need for safety on what is an inexplicably crash-prone course.

I'm glad you guys have kicked up this "debate" and have a forum to voice your frustrations, I hope I've been successful in providing an alternate point of view. I, for one, can't wait to be on the other side of the neutrals....I hope to see some of you there with me one of these upcoming weeks.

I hope if David and Jordan read this, they will respond if they feel misrepresented in any way---and I apologize in advance for using your names, I only wanted to lend some authority to my decisions and interpretations of the Neutral Rule.

I'd also be happy to talk about this stuff in person with any one of you guys the next time I'm out on a Monday or Tuesday. I wrote this quickly and I hope the overall message comes through and it is not lost on any particular choice of word or sentence.

Happy Racing,

Matt Curry

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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Matt C.