RE: Anti-bicyclist letter in Friday's Oregonian (A& E

Steve-@clark.wa.gov

2003-08-26



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Send your cards and letters to the editors of A&E ladies and gentlemen. Why

tell us when we already agree with you?



-----Original Message-----

From: Michael O'Hair [mailto:moh-@easystreet.com]

Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 6:09 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Anti-bicyclist letter in Friday's Oregonian (A& E

section)







I have personally witnessed nine events where a marked patrol car was first

in line waiting for the red light to change and when it changed, a vehicle

blew through the light at speed. In all of these events, the vehicle could

have stopped easily but didn't. And in all of these events, the patrol car

did not give pursuit. The score card is five Portland police, two Multnomah

County sheriff, and two Washington County sheriff. The lesson given, if not

intentionally, is that police don't want to bother with cars running red

lights. The only common thread through these events was that they all

occurred before 9 AM in the suburban southwest and it was clear and dry.



The bottom line is don't trust anyone at any time.



Note:

I doubt seriously that the motorists who witnessed these events with me went

home that night and groused about "those damn fool Mercedes Benz drivers."







----- Original Message -----

From: DDAVID-@aol.com <mailto:DDAVID-@aol.com>





hello

i agree with curt

lots of cars do california stops, but they do not blow thru them at speed

and running red lights when they just turned from yellow is a lot different

than running them anytime

david baker



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<DIV><SPAN class=883022516-26082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>Send your

cards and letters to the editors of A&E ladies and gentlemen. Why tell us

when we already agree with you?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left><FONT

face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Michael O'Hair

[mailto:moh-@easystreet.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, August 25, 2003 6:09

PM<BR><B>To:</B> ob-@topica.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [OBRA Chat]

Anti-bicyclist letter in Friday's Oregonian (A& E

section)<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I have personally witnessed nine events where a

marked patrol car was first in line waiting for the red light to change and

when it changed, a vehicle blew through the light at speed.  In all

of these events, the vehicle could have stopped easily but didn't.  And

in all of these events, the patrol car did not give pursuit.  The score

card is five Portland police, two Multnomah County sheriff, and two

Washington County sheriff.  The lesson given, if not intentionally, is

that police don't want to bother with cars running red lights.  The only

common thread through these events was that they all occurred before 9 AM in

the suburban southwest and it was clear and dry. </FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The bottom line is don't trust anyone at any

time.</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Note:</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I doubt seriously that the motorists who

witnessed these events with me went home that night and groused about "those

damn fool Mercedes Benz drivers."</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>

    <DIV

    style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>

    <A title=DDA-@aol.com

    href="mailto:DDAVID-@aol.com">DDAVID-@aol.com</A> </DIV>

    <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT></STRONG><BR></DIV><FONT

    face=arial,helvetica><FONT lang=0 face=Arial size=2

    FAMILY="SANSSERIF">hello<BR>i agree with curt<BR>lots of cars do california

    stops, but they do not blow thru them at speed<BR>and running red lights

    when they just turned from yellow is a lot different than running them

    anytime<BR>david baker</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT><PRE>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>



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Steve Brown

2003-08-25



The main point of this article is hate and hate speech. He further fuels

the fire of fake controversy. It is a plain and simple fallacy that any

thing less than religious adherence to traffic laws makes cyclists social

pariah. Close to 80% of all cars fail to make a complete stop at any stop

sign. How many red lights are run every day. Yet these dame people seem to

view a cyclist doing the same poses the same or greater danger.



The hate expressed is this letter is no less than any other hate speech

targeted at any person or group. Please treat this as such and act

appropriately.



Steve





on 8/25/03 12:59 PM, Mark Greenwood at mgree-@tqs.com wrote:



 I think it's important to acknowledge the points about obeying the

traffic laws and being courteous. It's unfortunate that the author

feels necessary to lecture everyone on his perception of how good or bad

cycling is for you (since he doesn't seem to know what he's talking

about, and it's irrelevant to the question at hand anyway).



I'd shy away from calling the last paragraph "dead on", though. The

point I see being overlooked is that after all his pontificating about

obeying the law, he advocates "staying on the sidewalk", which as I

understand it is a violation punishable by pretty hefty fines in many

locales (notably the City of Portland). Funny how as long as it removes

a source of irritation to him personally, it ceases to be about obeying

the law. That aside, he doesn't begin to understand that the prospect

of cyclists on the sidewalk trying to integrate with other traffic

(negotiating intersections, etc.) poses far more dangers and potential

for accidents than cyclists trying to move with the normal flow of

traffic. That's why the laws are written as they are.



Point is, he has some points, but mostly needs to get a clue.



Mark Greenwood





Mathew Hill wrote:

 











Aside from his opinion in the third-to-last paragraph, and his incorrect

assumption on stress to joints in the second-to-last paragraph, the rest

of

his points on bicycles are right on. His main point is obey the traffic

laws. For the most part cyclists do, but it is the arrogant (or stupid)

few that ignore basic rules of the road, like yielding the right of way

and

stopping at a stop sign that cause the majority of problems and

therefore

make the news and therefore give cyclists as a whole a bad name. I

think

his statement in the last paragraph is dead-on. "I can share the rod

with

courteous bikers, but I don't like the unpredictable nature of some

bikers.

If you want to share the road, live up to the responsibility of obeying

the

laws of the road. Otherwise stay on the sidewalk and out of traffic."

As a

cyclist and a driver, I agree.

















































































Curt Dewees     



<curtd@rivercitybi        To:       ob-@topica.com



cycles.com>               cc:



Subject: [OBRA Chat] Anti-bicyclist letter in Friday's Oregonian (A& E

section)        

08/24/2003 04:16



PM              



Please respond to



curtd           













Hi, OBRA friends,



On Aug. 15, John Foysten of the Oregonian wrote a piece in the A&E

section

about Portland's bike culture. Nothing shocking, just a few highlights

about some of the more bizarre and interesting aspects of Portland's

wildly

diverse biking scene.



One week later, the Oregonian A&E published a single letter in response

to

that article. It was from a Mr. Steve Seitz, Northwest Portland (a

person

whom I don't know). Here is his letter, unabridged. What makes it

particularly insidious is that, although it obvious that Mr. Seitz hates

bicyclists, he claims to be a one! (It soon becomes clear, however, that

he

isn't the type of bicyclist that we are!) Here is his letter:



[Headline] "Unplug Pedal Power."



"Regarding "A place for every pedaler" ("Out There," by John Foyston,

A&E,

Aug. 15): Let's face facts. Bikes are a nuisance. The people who ride

them,

for the most part, think they deserve the respect of motor vehicles

while

having to obey none of of the same restrictions that motor vehicles deal

with. Look no further than arrogant bikers ignoring the stop signs at

four-way stops because they would actually have to lose momentum by

stopping.



"Don't get me wrong. I love bikes. I biked everywhere when I was a kid.

They are a cute toy. Recently, I went on a 60-mile bike ride (while

gaining

2,000 feet in elevation) near the North Fork of the Middle Fork of the

Willamette River. Now, as an adult who commutes to work, a bike simply

will

not cut it.



"For many months out of the year, Oregon is not a fun place to ride a

bike.

We have lots of rainy days and some cold weather. I can't drop by the

store

on my way home from work and pick up groceries for my family while

riding

a bike. I can't give the football team a ride to practice with my bike.

I

can't take my family with me to the pumpkin patch or the the U-cut

Christmas tree farm on a bike.



"Aside form tandem bikes and teams practicing for competition, the act

of

biking is a solitary activity. It is telling that as our culture gets

more

and more self-centered and detached from family we see the rise of all

these biking organizations.



"People actually think that they are doing something healthy or

themselves

by biking. While it's true that their cardiovascular system may benefit

from self-propulsion, the limited range of motion and repetitive stress

on

joints caused by biking can actually do more harm than good.



"I can share the rod with courteous bikers, but I don't like the

unpredictable nature of some bikers. If you want to share the road, live

up

to the responsibility of obeying the laws of the road. Otherwise stay on

the sidewalk and out of traffic."



Steve Seitz

Northwest Portland





(Note: I couldn't find a telephone listing for a Steve Seitz in NW

Portland, and a Google search on the computer didn't turn up anything,

either. There is a telephone listing for a "Stephen Seitz" in SW

Portland,

but that seems to be a common enough name that I will assume it it not

the

same person who wrote the letter.)



There are so many factual errors in this person's letter that I almost

don't know where to begin to respond. But I am going to take the time to

respond because I think it is very important that Oregonian readers see

how

wrong this person is. I hope you will, too.



Please help me out by writing a letter in response to the Oregonian,

cataloging at least one or two of the serious factual errors that this

person has made. I believe that if we send enough letters that provide a

fact-based and logical rebuttal to this person's woefully misguided

letter,

the Oregonian will be compelled to publish a response from at least one

or

two of us!



Please also CC. the BTA with your response so they will have a record of

what has been submitted to the O.



Here's where to send your response:



email: ar-@news.oregonian.com



USPS:



Arts

The Oregonian

1320 SW Broadway

Portland OR 97201



Be sure to include your name and daytime phone number (for verification

purposes only).



Thanks,



Curt Dewees

River City Bicycles

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



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HOYER,BROOKE (HP-Vancouver,ex1)

2003-08-25



Mr. Hill,



I would challenge at least three statements Mr. Seitz made:



1) Bicycles don't cut it for commuting. I have driven a car to work 4 times

this year.

   I have cycled 143 times. I am not unique or particualrly hardcore. Oh

yeah, my

   commute is 6 miles each way -- but it is rare that I ride less than 18

miles on my

   way to work in the morning, even in the winter.



2) Cycling is a solitary pursuite. It my be an individual activity, but is

needn't be

   solitary. If you can't find someone to ride with, you just aren't

looking very

   hard.



3) Cycling is bad for your health. Wrong, wrong, wrong.



The primary problem with the letter is that it feeds into a negative

attitude about all cyclists. If a motorist sees a reckless driver on the

road, that driver would probably think that person shouldn't be on the road.

If a motorist sees a reckless cyclist on the road, that driver would most

likely think that ALL cyclists shouldn't be on the road.



After the Bridge Pedal, I was riding home while towing my daughter in the

Burley. I was obeying all traffic laws. I was riding in a predictable

manner. And some middle-aged guy honked his horn at me, gave me a dirty

look and shook his fist at me. And his wife was in the car! I don't want

people who don't know what they are talking about writing letters to the

editor that will ultimately inflame those kinds of reactions in people.











-----Original Message-----

From: Mathew Hill [mailto:mhi-@symantec.com]

Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 11:14 AM

To: cur-@rivercitybicycles.com

Cc: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Anti-bicyclist letter in Friday's Oregonian (A& E

section)



Aside from his opinion in the third-to-last paragraph, and his incorrect

assumption on stress to joints in the second-to-last paragraph, the rest of

his points on bicycles are right on. His main point is obey the traffic

laws. For the most part cyclists do, but it is the arrogant (or stupid) few

that ignore basic rules of the road, like yielding the right of way and

stopping at a stop sign that cause the majority of problems and therefore

make the news and therefore give cyclists as a whole a bad name. I think

his statement in the last paragraph is dead-on. "I can share the rod with

courteous bikers, but I don't like the unpredictable nature of some bikers.

If you want to share the road, live up to the responsibility of obeying the

laws of the road. Otherwise stay on the sidewalk and out of traffic." As a

cyclist and a driver, I agree.









Curt Dewees



<curtd@rivercitybi        To:       ob-@topica.com



cycles.com>               cc:



Subject: [OBRA Chat] Anti-bicyclist letter in Friday's Oregonian (A& E

section)        

08/24/2003 04:16PM



Please respond to curtd









Hi, OBRA friends,



On Aug. 15, John Foysten of the Oregonian wrote a piece in the A&E section

about Portland's bike culture. Nothing shocking, just a few highlights about

some of the more bizarre and interesting aspects of Portland's wildly

diverse biking scene.



One week later, the Oregonian A&E published a single letter in response to

that article. It was from a Mr. Steve Seitz, Northwest Portland (a person

whom I don't know). Here is his letter, unabridged. What makes it

particularly insidious is that, although it obvious that Mr. Seitz hates

bicyclists, he claims to be a one! (It soon becomes clear, however, that he

isn't the type of bicyclist that we are!) Here is his letter:



[Headline] "Unplug Pedal Power."



"Regarding "A place for every pedaler" ("Out There," by John Foyston, A&E,

Aug. 15): Let's face facts. Bikes are a nuisance. The people who ride them,

for the most part, think they deserve the respect of motor vehicles while

having to obey none of of the same restrictions that motor vehicles deal

with. Look no further than arrogant bikers ignoring the stop signs at

four-way stops because they would actually have to lose momentum by

stopping.



"Don't get me wrong. I love bikes. I biked everywhere when I was a kid. They

are a cute toy. Recently, I went on a 60-mile bike ride (while gaining 2,000

feet in elevation) near the North Fork of the Middle Fork of the Willamette

River. Now, as an adult who commutes to work, a bike simply will not cut it.



"For many months out of the year, Oregon is not a fun place to ride a bike.

We have lots of rainy days and some cold weather. I can't drop by the store

on my way home from work and pick up groceries for my family while riding a

bike. I can't give the football team a ride to practice with my bike. I

can't take my family with me to the pumpkin patch or the the U-cut Christmas

tree farm on a bike.



"Aside form tandem bikes and teams practicing for competition, the act of

biking is a solitary activity. It is telling that as our culture gets more

and more self-centered and detached from family we see the rise of all these

biking organizations.



"People actually think that they are doing something healthy or themselves

by biking. While it's true that their cardiovascular system may benefit from

self-propulsion, the limited range of motion and repetitive stress on joints

caused by biking can actually do more harm than good.



"I can share the rod with courteous bikers, but I don't like the

unpredictable nature of some bikers. If you want to share the road, live up

to the responsibility of obeying the laws of the road. Otherwise stay on the

sidewalk and out of traffic."



Steve Seitz

Northwest Portland





(Note: I couldn't find a telephone listing for a Steve Seitz in NW Portland,

and a Google search on the computer didn't turn up anything, either. There

is a telephone listing for a "Stephen Seitz" in SW Portland, but that seems

to be a common enough name that I will assume it it not the same person who

wrote the letter.)



There are so many factual errors in this person's letter that I almost don't

know where to begin to respond. But I am going to take the time to respond

because I think it is very important that Oregonian readers see how wrong

this person is. I hope you will, too.



Please help me out by writing a letter in response to the Oregonian,

cataloging at least one or two of the serious factual errors that this

person has made. I believe that if we send enough letters that provide a

fact-based and logical rebuttal to this person's woefully misguided letter,

the Oregonian will be compelled to publish a response from at least one or

two of us!



Please also CC. the BTA with your response so they will have a record of

what has been submitted to the O.



Here's where to send your response:



email: ar-@news.oregonian.com



USPS:



Arts

The Oregonian

1320 SW Broadway

Portland OR 97201



Be sure to include your name and daytime phone number (for verification

purposes only).



Thanks,



Curt Dewees

River City Bicycles

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

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