Michael Medina

Mike Murray,
Is the number of registered racers in each category related to
participation levels of each category?

If there is a positive correlation between those, do know the cause of
this? Is it that everyone wants to race as much as the next guy or is it
what promotors promote?

If there is a negative correlation, do we know that cause? Do the 1/2/3s
want to race more, are there more races offered, or has the long commitment
of being a higher level masters bike racer manifested itself as expected?

Is there an underlying cause to the category people exist in such as
available time to race, desire to race, or economic factors?

Totally off topic.

stevea.long

Well, that sounds convenient says the guy that wants to win a field of lower ability riders.
Is that too harsh?

Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S®4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone

So, I think the the focus should be on what option best serves the OBRA Masters community as a whole. To me this means offering competitive races to the largest number of racers. Where circumstances permit having Masters 1/2/3 and Masters 3/4/5 is ideal. But if that's not practical then a Masters 3/4/5 race will draw and satisfy a greater number of participants than catering to a small number of older pros who don't wish to race among their peers by skill and experience.

Coming back around to how this fits in with the self downgrade proposal - I see the potential for abuse of that option as being high. It would take just one person tired of hanging on in Cat 2 and downgrading with the intent and capability to dominate a Master 3/4/5 race to upset some otherwise great Masters races.

I think trying to keep individual participants involved as long as possible is admirable. But please keep the "greater good" in mind during this debate. Let's do our best to avoid the potential of messing up a good thing.

Rick

Rick Johnson
Bend, Oregon

On 6/11/2015 1:25 PM, STEVEN R HOLLAND via OBRA wrote:
Jeff,

As a promoter you need to do what is best for you, I agree. However, I have never understood the logic of mixing age categories with skill categories? Masters racing is racing your age peers while category racing is racing your skill level.This is how all OBRA Masters Championship races are scored right? The beginner master always has the option to race as a 4. So he has 2 options, age [masters] or skill [category] the 1/2 master has no option to race his or her age peers unless there is a masters 1/2 race. Now in a state like CA when there are so many masters then I can see offering masters 1/2/3 and 3/4/5 because the numbers will be there. See: Elkhorn masters 1/2/3 and masters 4/5.






STEVEN R HOLLAND
C(360) 600-2702

On Thursday, June 11, 2015 1:07 PM, Jeff Tedder wrote:

The Masters 3 / 4 and 4/5 cats I think have gotten more people involved in racing and not only that but they seem to stay engaged in racing, versus coming out as a rec. rider at 50 plus and getting hammered on in their first race by experienced racers that have been at it for years…. Some of these guys that do these cats actually have a chance to compete and get some results for their efforts, where as if it was an open 50 plus race all the time….The usual suspects would be winning every week, the 50 plus Cat races anymore are pretty friggin fast as we all know…and me as a promoter of a race are going to cater to the majority and give others a chance to do well in races, lets all remember, its about training, having fun and keeping people racing : ) we don’t make a living at this…..versus having the same guys win week in and week out…We might add another Masters race to the Hammer Velo Crit next year, but we will not be dropping the Master 3/4/5 race…..
Jeff


From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Salvatore Collura via OBRA
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 11:54 AM
To: STEVEN R HOLLAND
Cc: OBRA List
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule change I plan to propose for 2016

How about if promoters just stop making Masters races 3/4/5.

-sal

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 11, 2015, at 11:48 AM, STEVEN R HOLLAND via OBRA wrote:
I am planning on proposing a rule that would allow any 50 year old OBRA member to have the "option" to self downgrade "one category" without any approval from OBRA. You would be allowed to downgrade as low as a cat 3, no lower.

This is NOT a sandbagger rule, this is meant for older racers that are simply no longer competitive in a category they attained when they were younger.

I believe this will encourage older racers to stay in the sport longer.

I believe this would be "similar" to how cross does it?

Feedback????





STEVEN R HOLLAND
C(360) 600-2702
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STEVEN R HOLLAND

Never mind......out.

 STEVEN R HOLLANDC(360) 600-2702

On Thursday, June 11, 2015 5:30 PM, Jonathan Vinson wrote:

Steven,
You asked for feedback, and you got it.
The current OBRA rules address this scenario.  While the rule has a subjective component (to which you seem to object), your proposal is equally subjective ("When they are no longer able to compete in a 1/2 field").
I think some degree of discretion from OBRA leadership is appropriate in downgrading.

It also seems appropriate, when considering a new rule, to contemplate the second and third order effects that change might have on membership, participation, and satisfaction of racers.
Best,JV

On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 4:33 PM, STEVEN R HOLLAND via OBRA wrote:

Thank you for all the feedback.
Unfortunately, we have gotten off track. My proposal had nothing to do with changing the masters categories at races.
It has to do with giving an aging, slowing master racer the option to downgrade when they are no longer able to compete in the 1/2 field. Let me say that again; To allow an aging, slowing master racer the option to downgrade when they are no longer able to compete in the 1/2 field.
When they are no longer able to compete in a 1/2 field.
Do we all understand????
When they are no longer able to compete in a 1/2 field................................
No    longer   able    to     compete    in     a   1/2 field.
This is such a no brainer it is giving me a nose bleed................................. STEVEN R HOLLANDC(360) 600-2702

On Thursday, June 11, 2015 3:31 PM, Mike Murray via OBRA wrote:

That would be the point.  Limiting a Masters race to lower categories increases the appeal to the larger number of members almost 10 to 1.  The presence of each Cat 1 or 2 rider inhibits the participation of a much larger number of lower category riders.  If you look at riders 40+ the road category distribution is: Cat 1      37Cat 2      123Cat 3      362Cat 4      450Cat 5      558 Basically pandering to the egos of the 160 40+ Cat 1 and 2 riders comes at the cost of participation of the 1370 Cat 3-4-5 riders.  Limiting Masters races to lower categories creates a more friendly environment for a much larger audience.  Although Masters racing does serve the purpose of bolstering the ego of fading older riders (I get that, really) realistically the practical purpose it serves is to decompress the over populated Cat 3-4-5 fields and to take advantage of the large demographic bulge of the baby boomers.  Mike Murray From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of via OBRA
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 13:24
To: STEVEN R HOLLAND; craig austin
Cc: OBRA List
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule change I plan to propose for 2016 Even though I do not race road, I think you folks would do well to make any changes creating an environment more friendly to older riders.  Of course some do not care about it, but if there was some little niche that might keep a person interested I believe it would be good.  Just like making the new people feel comfortable, it would be nice to make older riders feel they still had a place.  I have always been impressed with OBRA being flexible with regard to making it more attractive to race instead of building more barriers... the opposite of some sanctioning bodies . ron From: STEVEN R HOLLAND via OBRA Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 12:29 PMTo: craig austin Cc: OBRA List Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule change I plan to propose for 2016 Craig, Agree 100% Why would a rider even want to downgrade if they were "in the points" ??. And I assume you mean upgrade points? The problem is the downgrade process is "subjective", not a good thing. Currently one man, one man alone decides. There need to be specific guidelines re what is "competitive". Hard to determine right? The best person to determine if they are "competitive" is THAT person, right?  STEVEN R HOLLANDC(360) 600-2702  On Thursday, June 11, 2015 12:16 PM, craig austin wrote: Not quite correct; the rules on the OBRA site are the same for 'cross and road (an individual may request a downgrade, and it will be evaluated by OBRA). I think you're thinking of mountain bike rules, which allow a downgrade if a rider has no significant results for two years (or, alternatively, they can do the request/approval).

To me, a results-based downgrade makes perfect sense. If you're not competitive, you won't have results. If you're getting shelled in every race, you probably aren't going to start winning in the next category down, although you will probably be more competitive. If you're still finishing in the points in a road race in your category, then you don't need to downgrade and I don't think it should be allowed just because a rider wants to. Craig  On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 11:10 AM, STEVEN R HOLLAND via OBRA wrote:I am planning on proposing a rule that would allow any 50 year old OBRA member to have the "option" to self downgrade "one category" without any approval from OBRA. You would be allowed to downgrade as low as a cat 3, no lower.  This is NOT a sandbagger rule, this is meant for older racers that are simply no longer competitive in a category they attained when they were younger. I believe this will encourage older racers to stay in the sport longer.  I believe this would be "similar" to how cross does it? Feedback????      STEVEN R HOLLANDC(360) 600-2702
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Rick Johnson

Steve,

Since the long answers including the basis for people's opinions
seem to be too much detail let's be real specific there then.



This is the current rule:

Road
Downgrades

A rider who wishes to downgrade may request a downgrade. Such
requests will be evaluated individually. In no case will a rider be
allowed to downgrade to category 5.





You proposed exactly this:

On
Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 11:10 AM, STEVEN R HOLLAND via OBRA <obra@list.obra.org>
wrote:

I am planning on proposing a rule
that would allow any 50 year old OBRA member to have the
"option" to self downgrade "one category" without any
approval from OBRA. You would be allowed to downgrade as low
as a cat 3, no lower.

Rick Johnson

Bend, Oregon

Thank you for all the
feedback.

Unfortunately, we have
gotten off track. My proposal had nothing to do with changing
the masters categories at races.

It has to do with
giving��an aging, slowing master racer the option to downgrade
when they are no longer able��to compete in the 1/2 field. Let
me say that again; To allow an aging, slowing master��racer the
option to downgrade when they are no longer able to compete in
the 1/2 field.

When they are no
longer able to compete in a 1/2 field.

Do we all
understand????

When they are no
longer able to compete in a 1/2
field................................

No������ longer���� able������ to�������� compete������ in�������� a���� 1/2
field.

This is such a no
brainer it is giving me a nose
bleed.................................

��

STEVEN R HOLLAND

C(360)
600-2702

On Thursday,
June 11, 2015 3:31 PM, Mike Murray via OBRA
<obra@list.obra.org> wrote:

#yiv5499196703 #yiv5499196703 --

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That would be the
point.�� Limiting a Masters race to lower
categories increases the appeal to the larger
number of members almost 10 to 1.�� The
presence of each Cat 1 or 2 rider inhibits the
participation of a much larger number of lower
category riders.�� If you look at riders 40+
the road category distribution is:

��

Cat 1���������� 37

Cat 2���������� 123

Cat 3���������� 362

Cat 4���������� 450

Cat 5���������� 558

��

Basically pandering
to the egos of the 160 40+ Cat 1 and 2 riders
comes at the cost of participation of the 1370
Cat 3-4-5 riders.�� Limiting Masters races to
lower categories creates a more friendly
environment for a much larger audience.��
Although Masters racing does serve the purpose
of bolstering the ego of fading older riders
(I get that, really) realistically the
practical purpose it serves is to decompress
the over populated Cat 3-4-5 fields and to
take advantage of the large demographic bulge
of the baby boomers.

��

��

Mike Murray

��

From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]
On Behalf Of via OBRA

Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015
13:24

To: STEVEN R HOLLAND; craig
austin

Cc: OBRA List

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] I need
feedback from OBRA members re: a rule
change I plan to propose for 2016

��

Even
though I do not race road, I think you
folks would do well to make any
changes creating an environment more
friendly to older riders.�� Of course
some do not care about it, but if
there was some little niche that might
keep a person interested I believe it
would be good.�� Just like making the
new people feel comfortable, it would
be nice to make older riders feel they
still had a place.�� I have always been
impressed with OBRA being flexible
with regard to making it more
attractive to race instead of building
more barriers... the opposite of some
sanctioning bodies .

ron

��

From: STEVEN
R HOLLAND via OBRA

Sent:
Thursday, June 11, 2015 12:29 PM

To: craig
austin

Cc: OBRA
List

Subject: Re:
[OBRA Chat] I need feedback from
OBRA members re: a rule change I
plan to propose for 2016

��

Craig,

��

Agree
100% Why would a rider even want
to downgrade if they were "in the
points" ??. And I assume you mean
upgrade points?

��

The
problem is the downgrade process
is "subjective", not a good thing.
Currently one man, one man alone
decides. There need to be specific
guidelines re what is
"competitive". Hard to determine
right? The best person to
determine if they are
"competitive" is THAT person,
right?

��

��

STEVEN
R HOLLAND

C(360)
600-2702

��

��

On
Thursday, June 11, 2015
12:16 PM, craig austin <useyourdagger@gmail.com>
wrote:

��

Not quite
correct; the rules
on the OBRA site are
the same for 'cross
and road (an
individual may
request a downgrade,
and it will be
evaluated by OBRA).
I think you're
thinking of mountain
bike rules, which
allow a downgrade if
a rider has no
significant results
for two years (or,
alternatively, they
can do the
request/approval).



To me, a
results-based
downgrade makes
perfect sense. If
you're not
competitive, you
won't have results.
If you're getting
shelled in every
race, you probably
aren't going to
start winning in the
next category down,
although you will
probably be more
competitive. If
you're still
finishing in the
points in a road
race in your
category, then you
don't need to
downgrade and I
don't think it
should be allowed
just because a rider
wants to.

Craig

��

��

On Thu,
Jun 11, 2015 at
11:10 AM, STEVEN R
HOLLAND via OBRA
<obra@list.obra.org>
wrote:

I am
planning on
proposing a
rule that
would allow
any 50 year
old OBRA
member to have
the "option"
to self
downgrade "one
category"
without any
approval from
OBRA. You
would be
allowed to
downgrade as
low as a cat
3, no lower.

��

This
is NOT a
sandbagger
rule, this is
meant for
older racers
that are
simply no
longer
competitive in
a category
they attained
when they were
younger.

��

I
believe this
will encourage
older racers
to stay in the
sport longer.

��

I
believe this
would be
"similar" to
how cross does
it?

��

Feedback????

��

��

��

��

��

STEVEN
R HOLLAND

C(360)
600-2702

_______________________________________________

OBRA mailing list

obra@list.obra.org

http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra

Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

��

��

---

_______________________________________________

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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________

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obra@list.obra.org

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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________

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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Jonathan Vinson

Steven,

You asked for feedback, and you got it.

The current OBRA rules address this scenario. While the rule has a
subjective component (to which you seem to object), your proposal is
equally subjective ("When they are no longer able to compete in a 1/2
field").

I think some degree of discretion from OBRA leadership is appropriate in
downgrading.

It also seems appropriate, when considering a new rule, to contemplate the
second and third order effects that change might have on membership,
participation, and satisfaction of racers.

Best,
JV

On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 4:33 PM, STEVEN R HOLLAND via OBRA <
obra@list.obra.org> wrote:

> Thank you for all the feedback.
>
> Unfortunately, we have gotten off track. My proposal had nothing to do
> with changing the masters categories at races.
>
> It has to do with giving an aging, slowing master racer the option to
> downgrade when they are no longer able to compete in the 1/2 field. Let me
> say that again; To allow an aging, slowing master racer the option to
> downgrade when they are no longer able to compete in the 1/2 field.
>
> When they are no longer able to compete in a 1/2 field.
>
> Do we all understand????
>
> When they are no longer able to compete in a 1/2
> field................................
>
> No longer able to compete in a 1/2 field.
>
> This is such a no brainer it is giving me a nose
> bleed.................................
>
> STEVEN R HOLLAND
> C(360) 600-2702
>
>
>
> On Thursday, June 11, 2015 3:31 PM, Mike Murray via OBRA <
> obra@list.obra.org> wrote:
>
>
> That would be the point. Limiting a Masters race to lower categories
> increases the appeal to the larger number of members almost 10 to 1. The
> presence of each Cat 1 or 2 rider inhibits the participation of a much
> larger number of lower category riders. If you look at riders 40+ the road
> category distribution is:
>
> Cat 1 37
> Cat 2 123
> Cat 3 362
> Cat 4 450
> Cat 5 558
>
> Basically pandering to the egos of the 160 40+ Cat 1 and 2 riders comes at
> the cost of participation of the 1370 Cat 3-4-5 riders. Limiting Masters
> races to lower categories creates a more friendly environment for a much
> larger audience. Although Masters racing does serve the purpose of
> bolstering the ego of fading older riders (I get that, really)
> realistically the practical purpose it serves is to decompress the over
> populated Cat 3-4-5 fields and to take advantage of the large demographic
> bulge of the baby boomers.
>
>
> Mike Murray
>
> *From:* OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] *On Behalf Of *via OBRA
> *Sent:* Thursday, June 11, 2015 13:24
> *To:* STEVEN R HOLLAND; craig austin
> *Cc:* OBRA List
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule
> change I plan to propose for 2016
>
> Even though I do not race road, I think you folks would do well to make
> any changes creating an environment more friendly to older riders. Of
> course some do not care about it, but if there was some little niche that
> might keep a person interested I believe it would be good. Just like
> making the new people feel comfortable, it would be nice to make older
> riders feel they still had a place. I have always been impressed with OBRA
> being flexible with regard to making it more attractive to race instead of
> building more barriers... the opposite of some sanctioning bodies .
> ron
>
> *From:* STEVEN R HOLLAND via OBRA
> *Sent:* Thursday, June 11, 2015 12:29 PM
> *To:* craig austin
> *Cc:* OBRA List
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule
> change I plan to propose for 2016
>
> Craig,
>
> Agree 100% Why would a rider even want to downgrade if they were "in the
> points" ??. And I assume you mean upgrade points?
>
> The problem is the downgrade process is "subjective", not a good thing.
> Currently one man, one man alone decides. There need to be specific
> guidelines re what is "competitive". Hard to determine right? The best
> person to determine if they are "competitive" is THAT person, right?
>
>
> STEVEN R HOLLAND
> C(360) 600-2702
>
>
> On Thursday, June 11, 2015 12:16 PM, craig austin
> wrote:
>
> Not quite correct; the rules on the OBRA site are the same for 'cross and
> road (an individual may request a downgrade, and it will be evaluated by
> OBRA). I think you're thinking of mountain bike rules, which allow a
> downgrade if a rider has no significant results for two years (or,
> alternatively, they can do the request/approval).
>
> To me, a results-based downgrade makes perfect sense. If you're not
> competitive, you won't have results. If you're getting shelled in every
> race, you probably aren't going to start winning in the next category down,
> although you will probably be more competitive. If you're still finishing
> in the points in a road race in your category, then you don't need to
> downgrade and I don't think it should be allowed just because a rider wants
> to.
> Craig
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 11:10 AM, STEVEN R HOLLAND via OBRA <
> obra@list.obra.org> wrote:
> I am planning on proposing a rule that would allow any 50 year old OBRA
> member to have the "option" to self downgrade "one category" without any
> approval from OBRA. You would be allowed to downgrade as low as a cat 3, no
> lower.
>
> This is NOT a sandbagger rule, this is meant for older racers that are
> simply no longer competitive in a category they attained when they were
> younger.
>
> I believe this will encourage older racers to stay in the sport longer.
>
> I believe this would be "similar" to how cross does it?
>
> Feedback????
>
>
>
>
>
> STEVEN R HOLLAND
> C(360) 600-2702
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> ------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

Salvatore Collura

Sarah, this rider would not need to downgrade if he could compete in Masters.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 11, 2015, at 4:40 PM, Sarah Tisdale via OBRA wrote:
>
> The original point of this thread was to discuss a proposed rule change. Maybe we should discuss the proposed rule change instead of "which categories should promoters offer".
>
> I believe the point of the proposed rule change is that the current road downgrade rules are subjective:
>
> http://www.obra.org/upgrade_rules.html
> "A rider who wishes to downgrade may request a downgrade. Such requests will be evaluated individually. In no case will a rider be allowed to downgrade to category 5."
>
>
> To me, it seems like the alternatives are:
>
> 1. Status Quo: .Trust in OBRA. OBRA will do it right (hopefully). Note that the status quo is the same as USAC (see the bottom of this page: http://www.usacycling.org/news/user/story.php?id=580).
>
> 2. Steve's Proposal: Let people choose to downgrade from 1/2 to 2/3 themselves.
>
> 3. Be more specific: I'll throw this into the mix. Remove (some) vagueness of the current rule by stating when riders might expect to be able to downgrade. Example wording might be taken from the OBRA MTB downgrade rule, which says:
> "A rider may downgrade one category when: They have no significant results for 2 seasons or at rider's discretion and approval of OBRA."
>
> Such language would help riders understand when they are likely to be able to receive a downgrade (though "approval of OBRA" still allows some wiggle room).
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 3:01 PM, Gregory Hartman via OBRA wrote:
>> I’m open to anything that gets me out of huge fields that include 40 year old cat 1’s and 2’s. I realize that sometimes promoters lack the resources to increase the # of groups but I know I speak for other active 60+ racers when I say that it has gotten discouraging to race in a group of 40, 50, and 60 1,2,3’s. Especially in races where the centerline rule is aggressively enforced, which I guess it probably should be. I don’t mind racing against 50+ lower cat folks, although they routinely drop me like a bad habit as well. That’s OK and it does provide some inspiration for us older guys (and gals) to keep training and trying to improve. However when the people dropping you could be your kids…..I guess I expect that ;-)
>>
>> Greg Hartman
>>
>>> On Jun 11, 2015, at 1:41 PM, Jeff Tedder via OBRA wrote:
>>>
>>> There is logic to it all…. Its not a perfect world for sure : ) I just like the idea of seeing the older people continue to race and have those be bigger and bigger fields, which they have….and if you force guys to race all the time against the same bunch of fast guys then they will never see results and probably get discouraged and stop…..and I know the masters guys love the groups racing with their ages and asking them to race against Cat 4/5 guys all the time probably not work either in my mind….. but, hey, we all have choices…promoters, racers etc…..do what you think is best for you and that’s all we can do… as far as down grading..I totally agree that people not getting results as they get older should be able easily to down grade, as long as its not sandbagging….then down grade and then start winning or being on the podium every week in the new lower Cat…. We all like doing well in races, no doubt, as long as people don’t abuse it : )
>>>
>>> From: STEVEN R HOLLAND [mailto:srh148@yahoo.com]
>>> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 1:26 PM
>>> To: Jeff Tedder; 'Salvatore Collura'
>>> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule change I plan to propose for 2016
>>>
>>> Jeff,
>>>
>>> As a promoter you need to do what is best for you, I agree. However, I have never understood the logic of mixing age categories with skill categories? Masters racing is racing your age peers while category racing is racing your skill level.This is how all OBRA Masters Championship races are scored right? The beginner master always has the option to race as a 4. So he has 2 options, age [masters] or skill [category] the 1/2 master has no option to race his or her age peers unless there is a masters 1/2 race. Now in a state like CA when there are so many masters then I can see offering masters 1/2/3 and 3/4/5 because the numbers will be there. See: Elkhorn masters 1/2/3 and masters 4/5.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> STEVEN R HOLLAND
>>> C(360) 600-2702
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thursday, June 11, 2015 1:07 PM, Jeff Tedder wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> The Masters 3 / 4 and 4/5 cats I think have gotten more people involved in racing and not only that but they seem to stay engaged in racing, versus coming out as a rec. rider at 50 plus and getting hammered on in their first race by experienced racers that have been at it for years…. Some of these guys that do these cats actually have a chance to compete and get some results for their efforts, where as if it was an open 50 plus race all the time….The usual suspects would be winning every week, the 50 plus Cat races anymore are pretty friggin fast as we all know…and me as a promoter of a race are going to cater to the majority and give others a chance to do well in races, lets all remember, its about training, having fun and keeping people racing : ) we don’t make a living at this…..versus having the same guys win week in and week out…We might add another Masters race to the Hammer Velo Crit next year, but we will not be dropping the Master 3/4/5 race…..
>>> Jeff
>>>
>>>
>>> From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Salvatore Collura via OBRA
>>> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 11:54 AM
>>> To: STEVEN R HOLLAND
>>> Cc: OBRA List
>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule change I plan to propose for 2016
>>>
>>> How about if promoters just stop making Masters races 3/4/5.
>>>
>>> -sal
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Jun 11, 2015, at 11:48 AM, STEVEN R HOLLAND via OBRA wrote:
>>> I am planning on proposing a rule that would allow any 50 year old OBRA member to have the "option" to self downgrade "one category" without any approval from OBRA. You would be allowed to downgrade as low as a cat 3, no lower.
>>>
>>> This is NOT a sandbagger rule, this is meant for older racers that are simply no longer competitive in a category they attained when they were younger.
>>>
>>> I believe this will encourage older racers to stay in the sport longer.
>>>
>>> I believe this would be "similar" to how cross does it?
>>>
>>> Feedback????
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> STEVEN R HOLLAND
>>> C(360) 600-2702
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Salvatore Collura

Sarah, this rider would not need to downgrade if he could compete in Masters.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 11, 2015, at 4:40 PM, Sarah Tisdale via OBRA wrote:
>
> The original point of this thread was to discuss a proposed rule change. Maybe we should discuss the proposed rule change instead of "which categories should promoters offer".
>
> I believe the point of the proposed rule change is that the current road downgrade rules are subjective:
>
> http://www.obra.org/upgrade_rules.html
> "A rider who wishes to downgrade may request a downgrade. Such requests will be evaluated individually. In no case will a rider be allowed to downgrade to category 5."
>
>
> To me, it seems like the alternatives are:
>
> 1. Status Quo: .Trust in OBRA. OBRA will do it right (hopefully). Note that the status quo is the same as USAC (see the bottom of this page: http://www.usacycling.org/news/user/story.php?id=580).
>
> 2. Steve's Proposal: Let people choose to downgrade from 1/2 to 2/3 themselves.
>
> 3. Be more specific: I'll throw this into the mix. Remove (some) vagueness of the current rule by stating when riders might expect to be able to downgrade. Example wording might be taken from the OBRA MTB downgrade rule, which says:
> "A rider may downgrade one category when: They have no significant results for 2 seasons or at rider's discretion and approval of OBRA."
>
> Such language would help riders understand when they are likely to be able to receive a downgrade (though "approval of OBRA" still allows some wiggle room).
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 3:01 PM, Gregory Hartman via OBRA wrote:
>> I’m open to anything that gets me out of huge fields that include 40 year old cat 1’s and 2’s. I realize that sometimes promoters lack the resources to increase the # of groups but I know I speak for other active 60+ racers when I say that it has gotten discouraging to race in a group of 40, 50, and 60 1,2,3’s. Especially in races where the centerline rule is aggressively enforced, which I guess it probably should be. I don’t mind racing against 50+ lower cat folks, although they routinely drop me like a bad habit as well. That’s OK and it does provide some inspiration for us older guys (and gals) to keep training and trying to improve. However when the people dropping you could be your kids…..I guess I expect that ;-)
>>
>> Greg Hartman
>>
>>> On Jun 11, 2015, at 1:41 PM, Jeff Tedder via OBRA wrote:
>>>
>>> There is logic to it all…. Its not a perfect world for sure : ) I just like the idea of seeing the older people continue to race and have those be bigger and bigger fields, which they have….and if you force guys to race all the time against the same bunch of fast guys then they will never see results and probably get discouraged and stop…..and I know the masters guys love the groups racing with their ages and asking them to race against Cat 4/5 guys all the time probably not work either in my mind….. but, hey, we all have choices…promoters, racers etc…..do what you think is best for you and that’s all we can do… as far as down grading..I totally agree that people not getting results as they get older should be able easily to down grade, as long as its not sandbagging….then down grade and then start winning or being on the podium every week in the new lower Cat…. We all like doing well in races, no doubt, as long as people don’t abuse it : )
>>>
>>> From: STEVEN R HOLLAND [mailto:srh148@yahoo.com]
>>> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 1:26 PM
>>> To: Jeff Tedder; 'Salvatore Collura'
>>> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule change I plan to propose for 2016
>>>
>>> Jeff,
>>>
>>> As a promoter you need to do what is best for you, I agree. However, I have never understood the logic of mixing age categories with skill categories? Masters racing is racing your age peers while category racing is racing your skill level.This is how all OBRA Masters Championship races are scored right? The beginner master always has the option to race as a 4. So he has 2 options, age [masters] or skill [category] the 1/2 master has no option to race his or her age peers unless there is a masters 1/2 race. Now in a state like CA when there are so many masters then I can see offering masters 1/2/3 and 3/4/5 because the numbers will be there. See: Elkhorn masters 1/2/3 and masters 4/5.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> STEVEN R HOLLAND
>>> C(360) 600-2702
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thursday, June 11, 2015 1:07 PM, Jeff Tedder wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> The Masters 3 / 4 and 4/5 cats I think have gotten more people involved in racing and not only that but they seem to stay engaged in racing, versus coming out as a rec. rider at 50 plus and getting hammered on in their first race by experienced racers that have been at it for years…. Some of these guys that do these cats actually have a chance to compete and get some results for their efforts, where as if it was an open 50 plus race all the time….The usual suspects would be winning every week, the 50 plus Cat races anymore are pretty friggin fast as we all know…and me as a promoter of a race are going to cater to the majority and give others a chance to do well in races, lets all remember, its about training, having fun and keeping people racing : ) we don’t make a living at this…..versus having the same guys win week in and week out…We might add another Masters race to the Hammer Velo Crit next year, but we will not be dropping the Master 3/4/5 race…..
>>> Jeff
>>>
>>>
>>> From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Salvatore Collura via OBRA
>>> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 11:54 AM
>>> To: STEVEN R HOLLAND
>>> Cc: OBRA List
>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule change I plan to propose for 2016
>>>
>>> How about if promoters just stop making Masters races 3/4/5.
>>>
>>> -sal
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Jun 11, 2015, at 11:48 AM, STEVEN R HOLLAND via OBRA wrote:
>>> I am planning on proposing a rule that would allow any 50 year old OBRA member to have the "option" to self downgrade "one category" without any approval from OBRA. You would be allowed to downgrade as low as a cat 3, no lower.
>>>
>>> This is NOT a sandbagger rule, this is meant for older racers that are simply no longer competitive in a category they attained when they were younger.
>>>
>>> I believe this will encourage older racers to stay in the sport longer.
>>>
>>> I believe this would be "similar" to how cross does it?
>>>
>>> Feedback????
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> STEVEN R HOLLAND
>>> C(360) 600-2702
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Candi Murray

Sarah
We had such wording in the past. I think no top ten finishes in 12 months
was the guideline I went by.
Candi

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 11, 2015, at 4:40 PM, Sarah Tisdale via OBRA
wrote:

The original point of this thread was to discuss a proposed rule change.
Maybe we should discuss the proposed rule change instead of "which
categories should promoters offer".

I believe the point of the proposed rule change is that the current road
downgrade rules are subjective:

http://www.obra.org/upgrade_rules.html
"A rider who wishes to downgrade may request a downgrade. Such requests
will be evaluated individually. *In no case will a rider be allowed to
downgrade to category 5." *

To me, it seems like the alternatives are:

1. *Status Quo: *.Trust in OBRA. OBRA will do it right (hopefully).
Note that the status quo is the same as USAC (see the bottom of this page:
http://www.usacycling.org/news/user/story.php?id=580).

2. *Steve's Proposal: *Let people choose to downgrade from 1/2 to 2/3
themselves.

3. *Be more specific:* I'll throw this into the mix. Remove (some)
vagueness of the current rule by stating when riders might expect to be
able to downgrade. Example wording might be taken from the OBRA MTB
downgrade rule, which says:

"A rider may downgrade one category when: They have no significant results
for 2 seasons or at rider's discretion and approval of OBRA."
Such language would help riders understand when they are likely to be able
to receive a downgrade (though "approval of OBRA" still allows some wiggle
room).

On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 3:01 PM, Gregory Hartman via OBRA <
obra@list.obra.org> wrote:

> I’m open to anything that gets me out of huge fields that include 40 year
> old cat 1’s and 2’s. I realize that sometimes promoters lack the
> resources to increase the # of groups but I know I speak for other active
> 60+ racers when I say that it has gotten discouraging to race in a group of
> 40, 50, and 60 1,2,3’s. Especially in races where the centerline rule is
> aggressively enforced, which I guess it probably should be. I don’t mind
> racing against 50+ lower cat folks, although they routinely drop me like a
> bad habit as well. That’s OK and it does provide some inspiration for us
> older guys (and gals) to keep training and trying to improve. However when
> the people dropping you could be your kids…..I guess I expect that ;-)
>
> Greg Hartman
>
> On Jun 11, 2015, at 1:41 PM, Jeff Tedder via OBRA
> wrote:
>
> There is logic to it all…. Its not a perfect world for sure : ) I just
> like the idea of seeing the older people continue to race and have those be
> bigger and bigger fields, which they have….and if you force guys to race
> all the time against the same bunch of fast guys then they will never see
> results and probably get discouraged and stop…..and I know the masters guys
> love the groups racing with their ages and asking them to race against Cat
> 4/5 guys all the time probably not work either in my mind….. but, hey, we
> all have choices…promoters, racers etc…..do what you think is best for you
> and that’s all we can do… as far as down grading..I totally agree that
> people not getting results as they get older should be able easily to down
> grade, as long as its not sandbagging….then down grade and then start
> winning or being on the podium every week in the new lower Cat…. We all
> like doing well in races, no doubt, as long as people don’t abuse it : )
>
> *From:* STEVEN R HOLLAND [mailto:srh148@yahoo.com ]
> *Sent:* Thursday, June 11, 2015 1:26 PM
> *To:* Jeff Tedder; 'Salvatore Collura'
> *Cc:* obra@list.obra.org
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule
> change I plan to propose for 2016
>
> Jeff,
>
> As a promoter you need to do what is best for you, I agree. However, I
> have never understood the logic of mixing age categories with skill
> categories? Masters racing is racing your age peers while category racing
> is racing your skill level.This is how all OBRA Masters Championship races
> are scored right? The beginner master always has the option to race as a
> 4. So he has 2 options, age [masters] or skill [category] the 1/2 master
> has no option to race his or her age peers unless there is a masters 1/2
> race. Now in a state like CA when there are so many masters then I can see
> offering masters 1/2/3 and 3/4/5 because the numbers will be there. See:
> Elkhorn masters 1/2/3 and masters 4/5.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> STEVEN R HOLLAND
> C(360) 600-2702
>
>
>
> On Thursday, June 11, 2015 1:07 PM, Jeff Tedder <
> sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com> wrote:
>
>
> The Masters 3 / 4 and 4/5 cats I think have gotten more people involved in
> racing and not only that but they seem to stay engaged in racing, versus
> coming out as a rec. rider at 50 plus and getting hammered on in their
> first race by experienced racers that have been at it for years…. Some of
> these guys that do these cats actually have a chance to compete and get
> some results for their efforts, where as if it was an open 50 plus race all
> the time….The usual suspects would be winning every week, the 50 plus Cat
> races anymore are pretty friggin fast as we all know…and me as a promoter
> of a race are going to cater to the majority and give others a chance to do
> well in races, lets all remember, its about training, having fun and
> keeping people racing : ) we don’t make a living at this…..versus having
> the same guys win week in and week out…We might add another Masters race to
> the Hammer Velo Crit next year, but we will not be dropping the Master
> 3/4/5 race…..
> Jeff
>
>
> *From:* OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> ] *On Behalf Of *Salvatore Collura via OBRA
> *Sent:* Thursday, June 11, 2015 11:54 AM
> *To:* STEVEN R HOLLAND
> *Cc:* OBRA List
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule
> change I plan to propose for 2016
>
> How about if promoters just stop making Masters races 3/4/5.
>
> -sal
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jun 11, 2015, at 11:48 AM, STEVEN R HOLLAND via OBRA <
> obra@list.obra.org> wrote:
>
> I am planning on proposing a rule that would allow any 50 year old OBRA
> member to have the "option" to self downgrade "one category" without any
> approval from OBRA. You would be allowed to downgrade as low as a cat 3, no
> lower.
>
> This is NOT a sandbagger rule, this is meant for older racers that are
> simply no longer competitive in a category they attained when they were
> younger.
>
> I believe this will encourage older racers to stay in the sport longer.
>
> I believe this would be "similar" to how cross does it?
>
> Feedback????
>
>
>
>
>
> STEVEN R HOLLAND
> C(360) 600-2702
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

STEVEN R HOLLAND

Thank you for all the feedback.
Unfortunately, we have gotten off track. My proposal had nothing to do with changing the masters categories at races.
It has to do with giving an aging, slowing master racer the option to downgrade when they are no longer able to compete in the 1/2 field. Let me say that again; To allow an aging, slowing master racer the option to downgrade when they are no longer able to compete in the 1/2 field.
When they are no longer able to compete in a 1/2 field.
Do we all understand????
When they are no longer able to compete in a 1/2 field................................
No    longer   able    to     compete    in     a   1/2 field.
This is such a no brainer it is giving me a nose bleed................................. STEVEN R HOLLANDC(360) 600-2702

On Thursday, June 11, 2015 3:31 PM, Mike Murray via OBRA wrote:

#yiv5499196703 #yiv5499196703 -- _filtered #yiv5499196703 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv5499196703 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv5499196703 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv5499196703 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}#yiv5499196703 #yiv5499196703 p.yiv5499196703MsoNormal, #yiv5499196703 li.yiv5499196703MsoNormal, #yiv5499196703 div.yiv5499196703MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv5499196703 a:link, #yiv5499196703 span.yiv5499196703MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv5499196703 a:visited, #yiv5499196703 span.yiv5499196703MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv5499196703 p {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv5499196703 p.yiv5499196703MsoAcetate, #yiv5499196703 li.yiv5499196703MsoAcetate, #yiv5499196703 div.yiv5499196703MsoAcetate {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:8.0pt;}#yiv5499196703 span.yiv5499196703BalloonTextChar {}#yiv5499196703 span.yiv5499196703EmailStyle20 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv5499196703 .yiv5499196703MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv5499196703 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv5499196703 div.yiv5499196703WordSection1 {}#yiv5499196703 That would be the point.  Limiting a Masters race to lower categories increases the appeal to the larger number of members almost 10 to 1.  The presence of each Cat 1 or 2 rider inhibits the participation of a much larger number of lower category riders.  If you look at riders 40+ the road category distribution is: Cat 1      37Cat 2      123Cat 3      362Cat 4      450Cat 5      558 Basically pandering to the egos of the 160 40+ Cat 1 and 2 riders comes at the cost of participation of the 1370 Cat 3-4-5 riders.  Limiting Masters races to lower categories creates a more friendly environment for a much larger audience.  Although Masters racing does serve the purpose of bolstering the ego of fading older riders (I get that, really) realistically the practical purpose it serves is to decompress the over populated Cat 3-4-5 fields and to take advantage of the large demographic bulge of the baby boomers.  Mike Murray From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of via OBRA
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 13:24
To: STEVEN R HOLLAND; craig austin
Cc: OBRA List
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule change I plan to propose for 2016 Even though I do not race road, I think you folks would do well to make any changes creating an environment more friendly to older riders.  Of course some do not care about it, but if there was some little niche that might keep a person interested I believe it would be good.  Just like making the new people feel comfortable, it would be nice to make older riders feel they still had a place.  I have always been impressed with OBRA being flexible with regard to making it more attractive to race instead of building more barriers... the opposite of some sanctioning bodies . ron From: STEVEN R HOLLAND via OBRA Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 12:29 PMTo: craig austin Cc: OBRA List Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule change I plan to propose for 2016 Craig, Agree 100% Why would a rider even want to downgrade if they were "in the points" ??. And I assume you mean upgrade points? The problem is the downgrade process is "subjective", not a good thing. Currently one man, one man alone decides. There need to be specific guidelines re what is "competitive". Hard to determine right? The best person to determine if they are "competitive" is THAT person, right?  STEVEN R HOLLANDC(360) 600-2702  On Thursday, June 11, 2015 12:16 PM, craig austin wrote: Not quite correct; the rules on the OBRA site are the same for 'cross and road (an individual may request a downgrade, and it will be evaluated by OBRA). I think you're thinking of mountain bike rules, which allow a downgrade if a rider has no significant results for two years (or, alternatively, they can do the request/approval).

To me, a results-based downgrade makes perfect sense. If you're not competitive, you won't have results. If you're getting shelled in every race, you probably aren't going to start winning in the next category down, although you will probably be more competitive. If you're still finishing in the points in a road race in your category, then you don't need to downgrade and I don't think it should be allowed just because a rider wants to. Craig  On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 11:10 AM, STEVEN R HOLLAND via OBRA wrote:I am planning on proposing a rule that would allow any 50 year old OBRA member to have the "option" to self downgrade "one category" without any approval from OBRA. You would be allowed to downgrade as low as a cat 3, no lower.  This is NOT a sandbagger rule, this is meant for older racers that are simply no longer competitive in a category they attained when they were younger. I believe this will encourage older racers to stay in the sport longer.  I believe this would be "similar" to how cross does it? Feedback????      STEVEN R HOLLANDC(360) 600-2702
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Sarah Tisdale

The original point of this thread was to discuss a proposed rule change.
Maybe we should discuss the proposed rule change instead of "which
categories should promoters offer".

I believe the point of the proposed rule change is that the current road
downgrade rules are subjective:

http://www.obra.org/upgrade_rules.html
"A rider who wishes to downgrade may request a downgrade. Such requests
will be evaluated individually. *In no case will a rider be allowed to
downgrade to category 5." *

To me, it seems like the alternatives are:

1. *Status Quo: *.Trust in OBRA. OBRA will do it right (hopefully).
Note that the status quo is the same as USAC (see the bottom of this page:
http://www.usacycling.org/news/user/story.php?id=580).

2. *Steve's Proposal: *Let people choose to downgrade from 1/2 to 2/3
themselves.

3. *Be more specific:* I'll throw this into the mix. Remove (some)
vagueness of the current rule by stating when riders might expect to be
able to downgrade. Example wording might be taken from the OBRA MTB
downgrade rule, which says:

"A rider may downgrade one category when: They have no significant results
for 2 seasons or at rider's discretion and approval of OBRA."
Such language would help riders understand when they are likely to be able
to receive a downgrade (though "approval of OBRA" still allows some wiggle
room).

On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 3:01 PM, Gregory Hartman via OBRA <
obra@list.obra.org> wrote:

> I’m open to anything that gets me out of huge fields that include 40 year
> old cat 1’s and 2’s. I realize that sometimes promoters lack the
> resources to increase the # of groups but I know I speak for other active
> 60+ racers when I say that it has gotten discouraging to race in a group of
> 40, 50, and 60 1,2,3’s. Especially in races where the centerline rule is
> aggressively enforced, which I guess it probably should be. I don’t mind
> racing against 50+ lower cat folks, although they routinely drop me like a
> bad habit as well. That’s OK and it does provide some inspiration for us
> older guys (and gals) to keep training and trying to improve. However when
> the people dropping you could be your kids…..I guess I expect that ;-)
>
> Greg Hartman
>
> On Jun 11, 2015, at 1:41 PM, Jeff Tedder via OBRA
> wrote:
>
> There is logic to it all…. Its not a perfect world for sure : ) I just
> like the idea of seeing the older people continue to race and have those be
> bigger and bigger fields, which they have….and if you force guys to race
> all the time against the same bunch of fast guys then they will never see
> results and probably get discouraged and stop…..and I know the masters guys
> love the groups racing with their ages and asking them to race against Cat
> 4/5 guys all the time probably not work either in my mind….. but, hey, we
> all have choices…promoters, racers etc…..do what you think is best for you
> and that’s all we can do… as far as down grading..I totally agree that
> people not getting results as they get older should be able easily to down
> grade, as long as its not sandbagging….then down grade and then start
> winning or being on the podium every week in the new lower Cat…. We all
> like doing well in races, no doubt, as long as people don’t abuse it : )
>
> *From:* STEVEN R HOLLAND [mailto:srh148@yahoo.com ]
> *Sent:* Thursday, June 11, 2015 1:26 PM
> *To:* Jeff Tedder; 'Salvatore Collura'
> *Cc:* obra@list.obra.org
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule
> change I plan to propose for 2016
>
> Jeff,
>
> As a promoter you need to do what is best for you, I agree. However, I
> have never understood the logic of mixing age categories with skill
> categories? Masters racing is racing your age peers while category racing
> is racing your skill level.This is how all OBRA Masters Championship races
> are scored right? The beginner master always has the option to race as a
> 4. So he has 2 options, age [masters] or skill [category] the 1/2 master
> has no option to race his or her age peers unless there is a masters 1/2
> race. Now in a state like CA when there are so many masters then I can see
> offering masters 1/2/3 and 3/4/5 because the numbers will be there. See:
> Elkhorn masters 1/2/3 and masters 4/5.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> STEVEN R HOLLAND
> C(360) 600-2702
>
>
>
> On Thursday, June 11, 2015 1:07 PM, Jeff Tedder <
> sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com> wrote:
>
>
> The Masters 3 / 4 and 4/5 cats I think have gotten more people involved in
> racing and not only that but they seem to stay engaged in racing, versus
> coming out as a rec. rider at 50 plus and getting hammered on in their
> first race by experienced racers that have been at it for years…. Some of
> these guys that do these cats actually have a chance to compete and get
> some results for their efforts, where as if it was an open 50 plus race all
> the time….The usual suspects would be winning every week, the 50 plus Cat
> races anymore are pretty friggin fast as we all know…and me as a promoter
> of a race are going to cater to the majority and give others a chance to do
> well in races, lets all remember, its about training, having fun and
> keeping people racing : ) we don’t make a living at this…..versus having
> the same guys win week in and week out…We might add another Masters race to
> the Hammer Velo Crit next year, but we will not be dropping the Master
> 3/4/5 race…..
> Jeff
>
>
> *From:* OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> ] *On Behalf Of *Salvatore Collura via OBRA
> *Sent:* Thursday, June 11, 2015 11:54 AM
> *To:* STEVEN R HOLLAND
> *Cc:* OBRA List
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule
> change I plan to propose for 2016
>
> How about if promoters just stop making Masters races 3/4/5.
>
> -sal
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jun 11, 2015, at 11:48 AM, STEVEN R HOLLAND via OBRA <
> obra@list.obra.org> wrote:
>
> I am planning on proposing a rule that would allow any 50 year old OBRA
> member to have the "option" to self downgrade "one category" without any
> approval from OBRA. You would be allowed to downgrade as low as a cat 3, no
> lower.
>
> This is NOT a sandbagger rule, this is meant for older racers that are
> simply no longer competitive in a category they attained when they were
> younger.
>
> I believe this will encourage older racers to stay in the sport longer.
>
> I believe this would be "similar" to how cross does it?
>
> Feedback????
>
>
>
>
>
> STEVEN R HOLLAND
> C(360) 600-2702
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

Mike Murray

A rider that does what Jeff describes below is in violation of this rule
and is subject to penalty:

“6.6.1 Eligibility No rider may race in a category other than that which is
stated on his or her membership.”

The officials monitor the results for this sort of thing. When it is
detected there is a penalty given. I don’t think it is fair to say that
seeing a Cat 3 ride a Cat 4/5 TT is “not unusual” but it is difficult to
catch all of these. If you note that happening it should be reported to
the officials.

Mike Murray

*From:* OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] *On Behalf Of *via OBRA
*Sent:* Thursday, June 11, 2015 14:42
*To:* STEVEN R HOLLAND; Jeff Tedder; 'Salvatore Collura'
*Cc:* obra@list.obra.org
*Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule
change I plan to propose for 2016

"Masters racing is racing your age peers while category racing is
racing your skill level."
In theory, yes, but this gets squoogy when riders move between different
types of races. Not unusual to see a Cat 3 road racer identify themselves
as a Cat 4/5 time trial rider because they're new to doing TT's.
they usually do well.

-jeff

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule
change I plan to propose for 2016
From: STEVEN R HOLLAND via OBRA
Date: Thu, June 11, 2015 1:25 pm
To: Jeff Tedder , 'Salvatore Collura'

Cc: "obra@list.obra.org"

Jeff,

As a promoter you need to do what is best for you, I agree. However, I have
never understood the logic of mixing age categories with skill categories?
Masters racing is racing your age peers while category racing is racing
your skill level.This is how all OBRA Masters Championship races are scored
right? The beginner master always has the option to race as a 4. So he has
2 options, age [masters] or skill [category] the 1/2 master has no option
to race his or her age peers unless there is a masters 1/2 race. Now in a
state like CA when there are so many masters then I can see offering
masters 1/2/3 and 3/4/5 because the numbers will be there. See: Elkhorn
masters 1/2/3 and masters 4/5.

STEVEN R HOLLAND

C(360) 600-2702

On Thursday, June 11, 2015 1:07 PM, Jeff Tedder <
sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com> wrote:

The Masters 3 / 4 and 4/5 cats I think have gotten more people involved in
racing and not only that but they seem to stay engaged in racing, versus
coming out as a rec. rider at 50 plus and getting hammered on in their
first race by experienced racers that have been at it for years…. Some of
these guys that do these cats actually have a chance to compete and get
some results for their efforts, where as if it was an open 50 plus race all
the time….The usual suspects would be winning every week, the 50 plus Cat
races anymore are pretty friggin fast as we all know…and me as a promoter
of a race are going to cater to the majority and give others a chance to do
well in races, lets all remember, its about training, having fun and
keeping people racing : ) we don’t make a living at this…..versus having
the same guys win week in and week out…We might add another Masters race to
the Hammer Velo Crit next year, but we will not be dropping the Master
3/4/5 race…..

Jeff

*From:* OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org ]
*On Behalf Of *Salvatore Collura via OBRA
*Sent:* Thursday, June 11, 2015 11:54 AM
*To:* STEVEN R HOLLAND
*Cc:* OBRA List
*Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule
change I plan to propose for 2016

How about if promoters just stop making Masters races 3/4/5.

-sal

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 11, 2015, at 11:48 AM, STEVEN R HOLLAND via OBRA
wrote:

I am planning on proposing a rule that would allow any 50 year old OBRA
member to have the "option" to self downgrade "one category" without any
approval from OBRA. You would be allowed to downgrade as low as a cat 3, no
lower.

This is NOT a sandbagger rule, this is meant for older racers that are
simply no longer competitive in a category they attained when they were
younger.

I believe this will encourage older racers to stay in the sport longer.

I believe this would be "similar" to how cross does it?

Feedback????

STEVEN R HOLLAND

C(360) 600-2702

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

------------------------------

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Candi Murray

Road Categories

I

92

II

306

III

664

IV

1198

V

1710

Overall

Jr (18 and under)

415

Senior (19-29)

467

Master 30-39

1193

Master 40-49

1529

Master 50+

729

Master 60+

225

no age listed

10

Women

842

From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of STEVEN R HOLLAND via OBRA
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 2:21 PM
To: Jeff Tedder; 'Salvatore Collura'
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule change I plan to propose for 2016

Masters fields are big because the average age of an OBRA racer is a MASTER *[-( not talking

STEVEN R HOLLAND

C(360) 600-2702

On Thursday, June 11, 2015 2:18 PM, Jeff Tedder wrote:

Exactly….yes, I agree….you should have to train hard to win a bike race…a lot of suffering goes into getting to that point……but there is all different levels of peoples abilities, no matter how hard they train….If we are saying to the ALL the 50 plus guys, suck it up and let a handful of super fast fit guys that have been racing for years win every race, then why don’t we just make all races that way ?? tell everyone from junior to 50 you are all in one big field…..how long do you think that would last before people stop racing…. Not long I am sure…..the masters fields are some of the biggest in OBRA, road, cross etc….why do we want to screw that up?? .

.

From: Salvatore Collura [mailto:salcollura@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 2:08 PM
To: Jeff Tedder
Cc: STEVEN R HOLLAND; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule change I plan to propose for 2016

A bike race should be hard to finish, and really really hard to win.

-sal

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 11, 2015, at 1:41 PM, Jeff Tedder wrote:

There is logic to it all…. Its not a perfect world for sure : ) I just like the idea of seeing the older people continue to race and have those be bigger and bigger fields, which they have….and if you force guys to race all the time against the same bunch of fast guys then they will never see results and probably get discouraged and stop…..and I know the masters guys love the groups racing with their ages and asking them to race against Cat 4/5 guys all the time probably not work either in my mind….. but, hey, we all have choices…promoters, racers etc…..do what you think is best for you and that’s all we can do… as far as down grading..I totally agree that people not getting results as they get older should be able easily to down grade, as long as its not sandbagging….then down grade and then start winning or being on the podium every week in the new lower Cat…. We all like doing well in races, no doubt, as long as people don’t abuse it : )

From: STEVEN R HOLLAND [mailto:srh148@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 1:26 PM
To: Jeff Tedder; 'Salvatore Collura'
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule change I plan to propose for 2016

Jeff,

As a promoter you need to do what is best for you, I agree. However, I have never understood the logic of mixing age categories with skill categories? Masters racing is racing your age peers while category racing is racing your skill level.This is how all OBRA Masters Championship races are scored right? The beginner master always has the option to race as a 4. So he has 2 options, age [masters] or skill [category] the 1/2 master has no option to race his or her age peers unless there is a masters 1/2 race. Now in a state like CA when there are so many masters then I can see offering masters 1/2/3 and 3/4/5 because the numbers will be there. See: Elkhorn masters 1/2/3 and masters 4/5.

STEVEN R HOLLAND

C(360) 600-2702

On Thursday, June 11, 2015 1:07 PM, Jeff Tedder wrote:

The Masters 3 / 4 and 4/5 cats I think have gotten more people involved in racing and not only that but they seem to stay engaged in racing, versus coming out as a rec. rider at 50 plus and getting hammered on in their first race by experienced racers that have been at it for years…. Some of these guys that do these cats actually have a chance to compete and get some results for their efforts, where as if it was an open 50 plus race all the time….The usual suspects would be winning every week, the 50 plus Cat races anymore are pretty friggin fast as we all know…and me as a promoter of a race are going to cater to the majority and give others a chance to do well in races, lets all remember, its about training, having fun and keeping people racing : ) we don’t make a living at this…..versus having the same guys win week in and week out…We might add another Masters race to the Hammer Velo Crit next year, but we will not be dropping the Master 3/4/5 race…..

Jeff

From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Salvatore Collura via OBRA
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 11:54 AM
To: STEVEN R HOLLAND
Cc: OBRA List
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule change I plan to propose for 2016

How about if promoters just stop making Masters races 3/4/5.

-sal

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 11, 2015, at 11:48 AM, STEVEN R HOLLAND via OBRA wrote:

I am planning on proposing a rule that would allow any 50 year old OBRA member to have the "option" to self downgrade "one category" without any approval from OBRA. You would be allowed to downgrade as low as a cat 3, no lower.

This is NOT a sandbagger rule, this is meant for older racers that are simply no longer competitive in a category they attained when they were younger.

I believe this will encourage older racers to stay in the sport longer.

I believe this would be "similar" to how cross does it?

Feedback????

STEVEN R HOLLAND

C(360) 600-2702

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OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Candi Murray

We have some topic drift here. The question is should we allow a Master 50 rider to downgrade to a lower category regardless of results?

Candi

From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Rick Johnson via OBRA
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 2:34 PM
To: STEVEN R HOLLAND; Jeff Tedder; 'Salvatore Collura'
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule change I plan to propose for 2016

I will speak up in favor of having Masters races divided into categories. Without a category division (open Masters) a situation is created where a small number (sometimes even one) really fast older racer can control the race. Locally, you all should know names of typical examples so I won't say any. The problem is that this makes for predictable outcomes and boring races.
On top of that it's a disincentive to more "average" Masters participants that were never Olympians, national champions, pro team riders or the like. The choice often then comes down to getting shelled by former pros or trying to keep up with your category racers that are 10 or 20 years younger. Speaking from personal experience neither option is particularly appealing.

So, I think the the focus should be on what option best serves the OBRA Masters community as a whole. To me this means offering competitive races to the largest number of racers. Where circumstances permit having Masters 1/2/3 and Masters 3/4/5 is ideal. But if that's not practical then a Masters 3/4/5 race will draw and satisfy a greater number of participants than catering to a small number of older pros who don't wish to race among their peers by skill and experience.

Coming back around to how this fits in with the self downgrade proposal - I see the potential for abuse of that option as being high. It would take just one person tired of hanging on in Cat 2 and downgrading with the intent and capability to dominate a Master 3/4/5 race to upset some otherwise great Masters races.

I think trying to keep individual participants involved as long as possible is admirable. But please keep the "greater good" in mind during this debate. Let's do our best to avoid the potential of messing up a good thing.

Rick

Rick Johnson
Bend, Oregon

On 6/11/2015 1:25 PM, STEVEN R HOLLAND via OBRA wrote:

Jeff,

As a promoter you need to do what is best for you, I agree. However, I have never understood the logic of mixing age categories with skill categories? Masters racing is racing your age peers while category racing is racing your skill level.This is how all OBRA Masters Championship races are scored right? The beginner master always has the option to race as a 4. So he has 2 options, age [masters] or skill [category] the 1/2 master has no option to race his or her age peers unless there is a masters 1/2 race. Now in a state like CA when there are so many masters then I can see offering masters 1/2/3 and 3/4/5 because the numbers will be there. See: Elkhorn masters 1/2/3 and masters 4/5.

STEVEN R HOLLAND

C(360) 600-2702

On Thursday, June 11, 2015 1:07 PM, Jeff Tedder wrote:

The Masters 3 / 4 and 4/5 cats I think have gotten more people involved in racing and not only that but they seem to stay engaged in racing, versus coming out as a rec. rider at 50 plus and getting hammered on in their first race by experienced racers that have been at it for years…. Some of these guys that do these cats actually have a chance to compete and get some results for their efforts, where as if it was an open 50 plus race all the time….The usual suspects would be winning every week, the 50 plus Cat races anymore are pretty friggin fast as we all know…and me as a promoter of a race are going to cater to the majority and give others a chance to do well in races, lets all remember, its about training, having fun and keeping people racing : ) we don’t make a living at this…..versus having the same guys win week in and week out…We might add another Masters race to the Hammer Velo Crit next year, but we will not be dropping the Master 3/4/5 race…..

Jeff

From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Salvatore Collura via OBRA
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 11:54 AM
To: STEVEN R HOLLAND
Cc: OBRA List
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule change I plan to propose for 2016

How about if promoters just stop making Masters races 3/4/5.

-sal

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 11, 2015, at 11:48 AM, STEVEN R HOLLAND via OBRA wrote:

I am planning on proposing a rule that would allow any 50 year old OBRA member to have the "option" to self downgrade "one category" without any approval from OBRA. You would be allowed to downgrade as low as a cat 3, no lower.

This is NOT a sandbagger rule, this is meant for older racers that are simply no longer competitive in a category they attained when they were younger.

I believe this will encourage older racers to stay in the sport longer.

I believe this would be "similar" to how cross does it?

Feedback????

STEVEN R HOLLAND

C(360) 600-2702

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Mike Murray

That would be the point. Limiting a Masters race to lower categories
increases the appeal to the larger number of members almost 10 to 1. The
presence of each Cat 1 or 2 rider inhibits the participation of a much
larger number of lower category riders. If you look at riders 40+ the road
category distribution is:

Cat 1 37

Cat 2 123

Cat 3 362

Cat 4 450

Cat 5 558

Basically pandering to the egos of the 160 40+ Cat 1 and 2 riders comes at
the cost of participation of the 1370 Cat 3-4-5 riders. Limiting Masters
races to lower categories creates a more friendly environment for a much
larger audience. Although Masters racing does serve the purpose of
bolstering the ego of fading older riders (I get that, really)
realistically the practical purpose it serves is to decompress the over
populated Cat 3-4-5 fields and to take advantage of the large demographic
bulge of the baby boomers.

Mike Murray

*From:* OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] *On Behalf Of *via OBRA
*Sent:* Thursday, June 11, 2015 13:24
*To:* STEVEN R HOLLAND; craig austin
*Cc:* OBRA List
*Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule
change I plan to propose for 2016

Even though I do not race road, I think you folks would do well to make any
changes creating an environment more friendly to older riders. Of course
some do not care about it, but if there was some little niche that might
keep a person interested I believe it would be good. Just like making the
new people feel comfortable, it would be nice to make older riders feel
they still had a place. I have always been impressed with OBRA being
flexible with regard to making it more attractive to race instead of
building more barriers... the opposite of some sanctioning bodies .

ron

*From:* STEVEN R HOLLAND via OBRA

*Sent:* Thursday, June 11, 2015 12:29 PM

*To:* craig austin

*Cc:* OBRA List

*Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule
change I plan to propose for 2016

Craig,

Agree 100% Why would a rider even want to downgrade if they were "in the
points" ??. And I assume you mean upgrade points?

The problem is the downgrade process is "subjective", not a good thing.
Currently one man, one man alone decides. There need to be specific
guidelines re what is "competitive". Hard to determine right? The best
person to determine if they are "competitive" is THAT person, right?

STEVEN R HOLLAND

C(360) 600-2702

On Thursday, June 11, 2015 12:16 PM, craig austin
wrote:

Not quite correct; the rules on the OBRA site are the same for 'cross and
road (an individual may request a downgrade, and it will be evaluated by
OBRA). I think you're thinking of mountain bike rules, which allow a
downgrade if a rider has no significant results for two years (or,
alternatively, they can do the request/approval).

To me, a results-based downgrade makes perfect sense. If you're not
competitive, you won't have results. If you're getting shelled in every
race, you probably aren't going to start winning in the next category down,
although you will probably be more competitive. If you're still finishing
in the points in a road race in your category, then you don't need to
downgrade and I don't think it should be allowed just because a rider wants
to.

Craig

On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 11:10 AM, STEVEN R HOLLAND via OBRA <
obra@list.obra.org> wrote:

I am planning on proposing a rule that would allow any 50 year old OBRA
member to have the "option" to self downgrade "one category" without any
approval from OBRA. You would be allowed to downgrade as low as a cat 3, no
lower.

This is NOT a sandbagger rule, this is meant for older racers that are
simply no longer competitive in a category they attained when they were
younger.

I believe this will encourage older racers to stay in the sport longer.

I believe this would be "similar" to how cross does it?

Feedback????

STEVEN R HOLLAND

C(360) 600-2702

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

------------------------------

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Jeff Tedder

Well Greg, I am hoping next year we can supply the 60 year old guys with
there own race at the Hammer Velo Crit, or maybe run the 50 and 60 plus guys
together and do a separate 40 plus race..I think the more of us older guys
that keep racing these fields will get alittle bigger and promoters should
offer races to those groups, as long as the field size is good...just my
opinion..I admire all you 60 plus guys still racing, and the last thing we
need to do is discourage that from happening...would be great to see 30 or
more 60 plus guys racing crits : )

From: Gregory Hartman [mailto:glhartman@comcast.net]
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 3:02 PM
To: Jeff Tedder
Cc: STEVEN R HOLLAND; Salvatore Collura; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule change
I plan to propose for 2016

I'm open to anything that gets me out of huge fields that include 40 year
old cat 1's and 2's. I realize that sometimes promoters lack the resources
to increase the # of groups but I know I speak for other active 60+ racers
when I say that it has gotten discouraging to race in a group of 40, 50, and
60 1,2,3's. Especially in races where the centerline rule is aggressively
enforced, which I guess it probably should be. I don't mind racing against
50+ lower cat folks, although they routinely drop me like a bad habit as
well. That's OK and it does provide some inspiration for us older guys (and
gals) to keep training and trying to improve. However when the people
dropping you could be your kids...I guess I expect that ;-)

Greg Hartman

On Jun 11, 2015, at 1:41 PM, Jeff Tedder via OBRA
wrote:

There is logic to it all.. Its not a perfect world for sure : ) I just like
the idea of seeing the older people continue to race and have those be
bigger and bigger fields, which they have..and if you force guys to race all
the time against the same bunch of fast guys then they will never see
results and probably get discouraged and stop...and I know the masters guys
love the groups racing with their ages and asking them to race against Cat
4/5 guys all the time probably not work either in my mind... but, hey, we
all have choices.promoters, racers etc...do what you think is best for you
and that's all we can do. as far as down grading..I totally agree that
people not getting results as they get older should be able easily to down
grade, as long as its not sandbagging..then down grade and then start
winning or being on the podium every week in the new lower Cat.. We all like
doing well in races, no doubt, as long as people don't abuse it : )

From: STEVEN R HOLLAND [mailto:srh148@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 1:26 PM
To: Jeff Tedder; 'Salvatore Collura'
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule change
I plan to propose for 2016

Jeff,

As a promoter you need to do what is best for you, I agree. However, I have
never understood the logic of mixing age categories with skill categories?
Masters racing is racing your age peers while category racing is racing your
skill level.This is how all OBRA Masters Championship races are scored
right? The beginner master always has the option to race as a 4. So he has
2 options, age [masters] or skill [category] the 1/2 master has no option to
race his or her age peers unless there is a masters 1/2 race. Now in a state
like CA when there are so many masters then I can see offering masters 1/2/3
and 3/4/5 because the numbers will be there. See: Elkhorn masters 1/2/3 and
masters 4/5.

STEVEN R HOLLAND

C(360) 600-2702

On Thursday, June 11, 2015 1:07 PM, Jeff Tedder <
sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com> wrote:

The Masters 3 / 4 and 4/5 cats I think have gotten more people involved in
racing and not only that but they seem to stay engaged in racing, versus
coming out as a rec. rider at 50 plus and getting hammered on in their first
race by experienced racers that have been at it for years.. Some of these
guys that do these cats actually have a chance to compete and get some
results for their efforts, where as if it was an open 50 plus race all the
time..The usual suspects would be winning every week, the 50 plus Cat races
anymore are pretty friggin fast as we all know.and me as a promoter of a
race are going to cater to the majority and give others a chance to do well
in races, lets all remember, its about training, having fun and keeping
people racing : ) we don't make a living at this...versus having the same
guys win week in and week out.We might add another Masters race to the
Hammer Velo Crit next year, but we will not be dropping the Master 3/4/5
race...

Jeff

From: OBRA [
mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Salvatore Collura via OBRA
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 11:54 AM
To: STEVEN R HOLLAND
Cc: OBRA List
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule change
I plan to propose for 2016

How about if promoters just stop making Masters races 3/4/5.

-sal

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 11, 2015, at 11:48 AM, STEVEN R HOLLAND via OBRA <
obra@list.obra.org> wrote:

I am planning on proposing a rule that would allow any 50 year old OBRA
member to have the "option" to self downgrade "one category" without any
approval from OBRA. You would be allowed to downgrade as low as a cat 3, no
lower.

This is NOT a sandbagger rule, this is meant for older racers that are
simply no longer competitive in a category they attained when they were
younger.

I believe this will encourage older racers to stay in the sport longer.

I believe this would be "similar" to how cross does it?

Feedback????

STEVEN R HOLLAND

C(360) 600-2702

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org

http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe:
obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Gregory Hartman

I’m open to anything that gets me out of huge fields that include 40 year old cat 1’s and 2’s. I realize that sometimes promoters lack the resources to increase the # of groups but I know I speak for other active 60+ racers when I say that it has gotten discouraging to race in a group of 40, 50, and 60 1,2,3’s. Especially in races where the centerline rule is aggressively enforced, which I guess it probably should be. I don’t mind racing against 50+ lower cat folks, although they routinely drop me like a bad habit as well. That’s OK and it does provide some inspiration for us older guys (and gals) to keep training and trying to improve. However when the people dropping you could be your kids…..I guess I expect that ;-)

Greg Hartman
On Jun 11, 2015, at 1:41 PM, Jeff Tedder via OBRA wrote:

> There is logic to it all…. Its not a perfect world for sure : ) I just like the idea of seeing the older people continue to race and have those be bigger and bigger fields, which they have….and if you force guys to race all the time against the same bunch of fast guys then they will never see results and probably get discouraged and stop…..and I know the masters guys love the groups racing with their ages and asking them to race against Cat 4/5 guys all the time probably not work either in my mind….. but, hey, we all have choices…promoters, racers etc…..do what you think is best for you and that’s all we can do… as far as down grading..I totally agree that people not getting results as they get older should be able easily to down grade, as long as its not sandbagging….then down grade and then start winning or being on the podium every week in the new lower Cat…. We all like doing well in races, no doubt, as long as people don’t abuse it : )
>
> From: STEVEN R HOLLAND [mailto:srh148@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 1:26 PM
> To: Jeff Tedder; 'Salvatore Collura'
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule change I plan to propose for 2016
>
> Jeff,
>
> As a promoter you need to do what is best for you, I agree. However, I have never understood the logic of mixing age categories with skill categories? Masters racing is racing your age peers while category racing is racing your skill level.This is how all OBRA Masters Championship races are scored right? The beginner master always has the option to race as a 4. So he has 2 options, age [masters] or skill [category] the 1/2 master has no option to race his or her age peers unless there is a masters 1/2 race. Now in a state like CA when there are so many masters then I can see offering masters 1/2/3 and 3/4/5 because the numbers will be there. See: Elkhorn masters 1/2/3 and masters 4/5.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> STEVEN R HOLLAND
> C(360) 600-2702
>
>
>
> On Thursday, June 11, 2015 1:07 PM, Jeff Tedder wrote:
>
>
> The Masters 3 / 4 and 4/5 cats I think have gotten more people involved in racing and not only that but they seem to stay engaged in racing, versus coming out as a rec. rider at 50 plus and getting hammered on in their first race by experienced racers that have been at it for years…. Some of these guys that do these cats actually have a chance to compete and get some results for their efforts, where as if it was an open 50 plus race all the time….The usual suspects would be winning every week, the 50 plus Cat races anymore are pretty friggin fast as we all know…and me as a promoter of a race are going to cater to the majority and give others a chance to do well in races, lets all remember, its about training, having fun and keeping people racing : ) we don’t make a living at this…..versus having the same guys win week in and week out…We might add another Masters race to the Hammer Velo Crit next year, but we will not be dropping the Master 3/4/5 race…..
> Jeff
>
>
> From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Salvatore Collura via OBRA
> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 11:54 AM
> To: STEVEN R HOLLAND
> Cc: OBRA List
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule change I plan to propose for 2016
>
> How about if promoters just stop making Masters races 3/4/5.
>
> -sal
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jun 11, 2015, at 11:48 AM, STEVEN R HOLLAND via OBRA wrote:
> I am planning on proposing a rule that would allow any 50 year old OBRA member to have the "option" to self downgrade "one category" without any approval from OBRA. You would be allowed to downgrade as low as a cat 3, no lower.
>
> This is NOT a sandbagger rule, this is meant for older racers that are simply no longer competitive in a category they attained when they were younger.
>
> I believe this will encourage older racers to stay in the sport longer.
>
> I believe this would be "similar" to how cross does it?
>
> Feedback????
>
>
>
>
>
> STEVEN R HOLLAND
> C(360) 600-2702
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

je..@ultrafreaks.net

-------- Original Message --------

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule

change I plan to propose for 2016

From: STEVEN R HOLLAND via OBRA <obra@list.obra.org>

Date: Thu, June 11, 2015 1:25 pm

To: Jeff Tedder <sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com>, 'Salvatore Collura'

<salcollura@hotmail.com>

Cc: "obra@list.obra.org" <obra@list.obra.org>

Jeff,

As a promoter you need to do what is best for you, I agree. However, I have never understood the logic of mixing age categories with skill categories? Masters racing is racing your age peers while category racing is racing your skill level.This is how all OBRA Masters Championship races are scored right?  The beginner master always has the option to race as a 4. So he has 2 options, age [masters] or skill [category] the 1/2 master has no option to race his or her age peers unless there is a masters 1/2 race. Now in a state like CA when there are so many masters then I can see offering masters 1/2/3 and 3/4/5 because the numbers will be there. See: Elkhorn masters 1/2/3 and masters 4/5.

  

STEVEN R HOLLAND

C(360) 600-2702

On Thursday, June 11, 2015 1:07 PM, Jeff Tedder <sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com> wrote:

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The Masters 3 / 4 and 4/5 cats I think have gotten more people involved in racing and not only that but they seem to  stay engaged in racing, versus coming out as a rec. rider at 50 plus and getting hammered on in their first race by experienced racers that have been at it for years���. Some of these guys that do these cats actually have a chance to compete and get some results for their efforts, where as if it was an open 50 plus race all the time���.The usual suspects would be winning every week, the 50 plus Cat races anymore are pretty friggin fast as we all know���and me as a promoter of a race are going to cater to the majority and give others a chance to do well in races, lets all remember, its about training, having fun and keeping people racing : ) we don���t make a living at this���..versus having the same guys win week in and week out���We might add another Masters race to the Hammer Velo Crit next year, but we will not be dropping the Master 3/4/5 race���..

Jeff

 

 

From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Salvatore Collura via OBRA
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 11:54 AM
To: STEVEN R HOLLAND
Cc: OBRA List
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule change I plan to propose for 2016

 

How about if promoters just stop making Masters races 3/4/5.

 

-sal

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 11, 2015, at 11:48 AM, STEVEN R HOLLAND via OBRA <obra@list.obra.org> wrote:

 I am planning on proposing a rule that would allow any 50 year old OBRA member to have the "option" to self downgrade "one category" without any approval from OBRA. You would be allowed to downgrade as low as a cat 3, no lower.

 

This is NOT a sandbagger rule, this is meant for older racers that are simply no longer competitive in a category they attained when they were younger.

 

I believe this will encourage older racers to stay in the sport longer. 

 

I believe this would be "similar" to how cross does it?

 

Feedback???? 

 

 

 

 

 

STEVEN R HOLLAND

C(360) 600-2702

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

---

_______________________________________________

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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Jeff Tedder

Yes, exactly what I said just in a different way : ) great minds think alike…haha

From: Rick Johnson [mailto:rickcjohnson1@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 2:34 PM
To: STEVEN R HOLLAND; Jeff Tedder; 'Salvatore Collura'
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule change I plan to propose for 2016

I will speak up in favor of having Masters races divided into categories. Without a category division (open Masters) a situation is created where a small number (sometimes even one) really fast older racer can control the race. Locally, you all should know names of typical examples so I won't say any. The problem is that this makes for predictable outcomes and boring races.
On top of that it's a disincentive to more "average" Masters participants that were never Olympians, national champions, pro team riders or the like. The choice often then comes down to getting shelled by former pros or trying to keep up with your category racers that are 10 or 20 years younger. Speaking from personal experience neither option is particularly appealing.

So, I think the the focus should be on what option best serves the OBRA Masters community as a whole. To me this means offering competitive races to the largest number of racers. Where circumstances permit having Masters 1/2/3 and Masters 3/4/5 is ideal. But if that's not practical then a Masters 3/4/5 race will draw and satisfy a greater number of participants than catering to a small number of older pros who don't wish to race among their peers by skill and experience.

Coming back around to how this fits in with the self downgrade proposal - I see the potential for abuse of that option as being high. It would take just one person tired of hanging on in Cat 2 and downgrading with the intent and capability to dominate a Master 3/4/5 race to upset some otherwise great Masters races.

I think trying to keep individual participants involved as long as possible is admirable. But please keep the "greater good" in mind during this debate. Let's do our best to avoid the potential of messing up a good thing.

Rick

Rick Johnson
Bend, Oregon

On 6/11/2015 1:25 PM, STEVEN R HOLLAND via OBRA wrote:

Jeff,

As a promoter you need to do what is best for you, I agree. However, I have never understood the logic of mixing age categories with skill categories? Masters racing is racing your age peers while category racing is racing your skill level.This is how all OBRA Masters Championship races are scored right? The beginner master always has the option to race as a 4. So he has 2 options, age [masters] or skill [category] the 1/2 master has no option to race his or her age peers unless there is a masters 1/2 race. Now in a state like CA when there are so many masters then I can see offering masters 1/2/3 and 3/4/5 because the numbers will be there. See: Elkhorn masters 1/2/3 and masters 4/5.

STEVEN R HOLLAND

C(360) 600-2702

On Thursday, June 11, 2015 1:07 PM, Jeff Tedder wrote:

The Masters 3 / 4 and 4/5 cats I think have gotten more people involved in racing and not only that but they seem to stay engaged in racing, versus coming out as a rec. rider at 50 plus and getting hammered on in their first race by experienced racers that have been at it for years…. Some of these guys that do these cats actually have a chance to compete and get some results for their efforts, where as if it was an open 50 plus race all the time….The usual suspects would be winning every week, the 50 plus Cat races anymore are pretty friggin fast as we all know…and me as a promoter of a race are going to cater to the majority and give others a chance to do well in races, lets all remember, its about training, having fun and keeping people racing : ) we don’t make a living at this…..versus having the same guys win week in and week out…We might add another Masters race to the Hammer Velo Crit next year, but we will not be dropping the Master 3/4/5 race…..

Jeff

From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Salvatore Collura via OBRA
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 11:54 AM
To: STEVEN R HOLLAND
Cc: OBRA List
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule change I plan to propose for 2016

How about if promoters just stop making Masters races 3/4/5.

-sal

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 11, 2015, at 11:48 AM, STEVEN R HOLLAND via OBRA wrote:

I am planning on proposing a rule that would allow any 50 year old OBRA member to have the "option" to self downgrade "one category" without any approval from OBRA. You would be allowed to downgrade as low as a cat 3, no lower.

This is NOT a sandbagger rule, this is meant for older racers that are simply no longer competitive in a category they attained when they were younger.

I believe this will encourage older racers to stay in the sport longer.

I believe this would be "similar" to how cross does it?

Feedback????

STEVEN R HOLLAND

C(360) 600-2702

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Rick Johnson

I will speak up in favor of having Masters races divided into
categories. Without a category division (open Masters) a situation
is created where a small number (sometimes even one) really fast
older racer can control the race. Locally, you all should know names
of typical examples so I won't say any. The problem is that this
makes for predictable outcomes and boring races.

On top of that it's a disincentive to more "average" Masters
participants that were never Olympians, national champions, pro team
riders or the like. The choice often then comes down to getting
shelled by former pros or trying to keep up with your category
racers that are 10 or 20 years younger. Speaking from personal
experience neither option is particularly appealing.



So, I think the the focus should be on what option best serves the
OBRA Masters community as a whole. To me this means offering
competitive races to the largest number of racers. Where
circumstances permit having Masters 1/2/3 and Masters 3/4/5 is
ideal. But if that's not practical then a Masters 3/4/5 race will
draw and satisfy a greater number of participants than catering to a
small number of older pros who don't wish to race among their peers
by skill and experience.



Coming back around to how this fits in with the self downgrade
proposal - I see the potential for abuse of that option as being
high. It would take just one person tired of hanging on in Cat 2 and
downgrading with the intent and capability to dominate a Master
3/4/5 race to upset some otherwise great Masters races.



I think trying to keep individual participants involved as long as
possible is admirable. But please keep the "greater good" in mind
during this debate. Let's do our best to avoid the potential of
messing up a good thing.



Rick

Rick Johnson

Bend, Oregon

Jeff,

As a
promoter you need to do what is best for you, I
agree.��However, I have never understood the logic of��mixing
age categories with skill categories? Masters racing is racing
your age peers while category racing is racing your skill
level.This is how all OBRA Masters��Championship races are
scored right?����The beginner master always has the option to
race as a 4. So he has 2 options, age [masters]��or skill
[category]��the 1/2 master has no option to race his or her age
peers unless there is a masters 1/2 race. Now in a state like
CA when there are so many masters then I can see offering
masters 1/2/3 and 3/4/5 because the numbers will be there.
See: Elkhorn masters 1/2/3 and masters 4/5.

����

STEVEN R HOLLAND

C(360)
600-2702

On Thursday,
June 11, 2015 1:07 PM, Jeff Tedder
<sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com> wrote:

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The Masters 3 / 4 and
4/5 cats I think have gotten more people
involved in racing and not only that but they
seem to ��stay engaged in racing, versus coming
out as a rec. rider at 50 plus and getting
hammered on in their first race by experienced
racers that have been at it for years���. Some
of these guys that do these cats actually have
a chance to compete and get some results for
their efforts, where as if it was an open 50
plus race all the time���.The usual suspects
would be winning every week, the 50 plus Cat
races anymore are pretty friggin fast as we
all know���and me as a promoter of a race are
going to cater to the majority and give others
a chance to do well in races, lets all
remember, its about training, having fun and
keeping people racing : ) we don���t make a
living at this���..versus having the same guys
win week in and week out���We might add another
Masters race to the Hammer Velo Crit next
year, but we will not be dropping the Master
3/4/5 race���..

Jeff

��

��

From: OBRA
[mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Salvatore Collura via
OBRA

Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015
11:54 AM

To: STEVEN R HOLLAND

Cc: OBRA List

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] I need
feedback from OBRA members re: a rule
change I plan to propose for 2016

��

How about
if promoters just stop making Masters races
3/4/5.

��

-sal



Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 11, 2015, at 11:48 AM, STEVEN R
HOLLAND via OBRA <obra@list.obra.org>
wrote:

��I am
planning on proposing a rule that
would allow any 50 year old OBRA
member to have the "option" to self
downgrade "one category" without any
approval from OBRA. You would be
allowed to downgrade as low as a cat
3, no lower.

��

This is
NOT a sandbagger rule, this is meant
for older racers that are simply no
longer competitive in��a category
they attained when they were
younger.

��

I believe
this will encourage older racers to
stay��in the sport longer.��

��

I believe
this would be "similar" to how cross
does it?

��

Feedback????��

��

��

��

��

��

STEVEN
R HOLLAND

C(360)
600-2702

_______________________________________________

OBRA mailing list

obra@list.obra.org

http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra

Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________

OBRA mailing list

obra@list.obra.org

http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra

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STEVEN R HOLLAND

Masters fields are big because the average age of an OBRA racer is a MASTER STEVEN R HOLLANDC(360) 600-2702

On Thursday, June 11, 2015 2:18 PM, Jeff Tedder wrote:

#yiv7756017476 #yiv7756017476 -- _filtered #yiv7756017476 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv7756017476 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv7756017476 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv7756017476 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}#yiv7756017476 #yiv7756017476 p.yiv7756017476MsoNormal, #yiv7756017476 li.yiv7756017476MsoNormal, #yiv7756017476 div.yiv7756017476MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv7756017476 a:link, #yiv7756017476 span.yiv7756017476MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv7756017476 a:visited, #yiv7756017476 span.yiv7756017476MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv7756017476 p.yiv7756017476MsoAcetate, #yiv7756017476 li.yiv7756017476MsoAcetate, #yiv7756017476 div.yiv7756017476MsoAcetate {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:8.0pt;}#yiv7756017476 span.yiv7756017476BalloonTextChar {}#yiv7756017476 p.yiv7756017476msonormal, #yiv7756017476 li.yiv7756017476msonormal, #yiv7756017476 div.yiv7756017476msonormal {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv7756017476 p.yiv7756017476msochpdefault, #yiv7756017476 li.yiv7756017476msochpdefault, #yiv7756017476 div.yiv7756017476msochpdefault {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv7756017476 p.yiv7756017476msonormal1, #yiv7756017476 li.yiv7756017476msonormal1, #yiv7756017476 div.yiv7756017476msonormal1 {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv7756017476 p.yiv7756017476msochpdefault1, #yiv7756017476 li.yiv7756017476msochpdefault1, #yiv7756017476 div.yiv7756017476msochpdefault1 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:10.0pt;}#yiv7756017476 span.yiv7756017476msohyperlink {}#yiv7756017476 span.yiv7756017476msohyperlinkfollowed {}#yiv7756017476 span.yiv7756017476emailstyle17 {}#yiv7756017476 span.yiv7756017476msohyperlink1 {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv7756017476 span.yiv7756017476msohyperlinkfollowed1 {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv7756017476 span.yiv7756017476emailstyle171 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv7756017476 span.yiv7756017476EmailStyle29 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv7756017476 span.yiv7756017476EmailStyle30 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv7756017476 .yiv7756017476MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv7756017476 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv7756017476 div.yiv7756017476WordSection1 {}#yiv7756017476 Exactly….yes, I agree….you should have to train hard to win a bike race…a lot of suffering goes into getting to that point……but there is all different levels of peoples abilities, no matter how hard they train….If we are saying to the ALL the 50 plus guys, suck it up and let a handful of super fast fit guys that have been racing for years win every race, then why don’t we just make all races that way ?? tell everyone from junior to 50 you are all in one big field…..how long do you think that would last before people stop racing…. Not long I am sure…..the masters fields are some of the biggest in OBRA, road, cross etc….why do we want to screw that up?? .  .From: Salvatore Collura [mailto:salcollura@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 2:08 PM
To: Jeff Tedder
Cc: STEVEN R HOLLAND; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule change I plan to propose for 2016  A bike race should be hard to finish, and really really hard to win.  -sal

Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 11, 2015, at 1:41 PM, Jeff Tedder wrote:
There is logic to it all…. Its not a perfect world for sure  : ) I just like the idea of seeing the older people continue to race and have those be bigger and bigger fields, which they have….and if you force guys to race all the time against the same bunch of fast guys then they will never see results and probably get discouraged and stop…..and I know the masters guys love the groups racing with their ages and asking them to race against Cat 4/5 guys all the time probably not work either in my mind….. but, hey, we all have choices…promoters, racers etc…..do what you think is best for you and that’s all we can do… as far as down grading..I totally agree that people not getting results as they get older should be able easily to down grade, as long as its not sandbagging….then down grade and then start winning or being on the podium every week in the new lower Cat…. We all like doing well in races, no doubt, as long as people don’t abuse it : ) From: STEVEN R HOLLAND [mailto:srh148@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 1:26 PM
To: Jeff Tedder; 'Salvatore Collura'
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule change I plan to propose for 2016 Jeff, As a promoter you need to do what is best for you, I agree. However, I have never understood the logic of mixing age categories with skill categories? Masters racing is racing your age peers while category racing is racing your skill level.This is how all OBRA Masters Championship races are scored right?  The beginner master always has the option to race as a 4. So he has 2 options, age [masters] or skill [category] the 1/2 master has no option to race his or her age peers unless there is a masters 1/2 race. Now in a state like CA when there are so many masters then I can see offering masters 1/2/3 and 3/4/5 because the numbers will be there. See: Elkhorn masters 1/2/3 and masters 4/5.       STEVEN R HOLLANDC(360) 600-2702  On Thursday, June 11, 2015 1:07 PM, Jeff Tedder wrote: The Masters 3 / 4 and 4/5 cats I think have gotten more people involved in racing and not only that but they seem to  stay engaged in racing, versus coming out as a rec. rider at 50 plus and getting hammered on in their first race by experienced racers that have been at it for years…. Some of these guys that do these cats actually have a chance to compete and get some results for their efforts, where as if it was an open 50 plus race all the time….The usual suspects would be winning every week, the 50 plus Cat races anymore are pretty friggin fast as we all know…and me as a promoter of a race are going to cater to the majority and give others a chance to do well in races, lets all remember, its about training, having fun and keeping people racing : ) we don’t make a living at this…..versus having the same guys win week in and week out…We might add another Masters race to the Hammer Velo Crit next year, but we will not be dropping the Master 3/4/5 race….. Jeff  From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Salvatore Collura via OBRA
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 11:54 AM
To: STEVEN R HOLLAND
Cc: OBRA List
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule change I plan to propose for 2016 How about if promoters just stop making Masters races 3/4/5. -sal

Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 11, 2015, at 11:48 AM, STEVEN R HOLLAND via OBRA wrote:
 I am planning on proposing a rule that would allow any 50 year old OBRA member to have the "option" to self downgrade "one category" without any approval from OBRA. You would be allowed to downgrade as low as a cat 3, no lower.  This is NOT a sandbagger rule, this is meant for older racers that are simply no longer competitive in a category they attained when they were younger. I believe this will encourage older racers to stay in the sport longer.  I believe this would be "similar" to how cross does it? Feedback????      STEVEN R HOLLANDC(360) 600-2702

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Jeff Tedder

Exactly….yes, I agree….you should have to train hard to win a bike race…a lot of suffering goes into getting to that point……but there is all different levels of peoples abilities, no matter how hard they train….If we are saying to the ALL the 50 plus guys, suck it up and let a handful of super fast fit guys that have been racing for years win every race, then why don’t we just make all races that way ?? tell everyone from junior to 50 you are all in one big field…..how long do you think that would last before people stop racing…. Not long I am sure…..the masters fields are some of the biggest in OBRA, road, cross etc….why do we want to screw that up?? .

.

From: Salvatore Collura [mailto:salcollura@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 2:08 PM
To: Jeff Tedder
Cc: STEVEN R HOLLAND; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule change I plan to propose for 2016

A bike race should be hard to finish, and really really hard to win.

-sal

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 11, 2015, at 1:41 PM, Jeff Tedder wrote:

There is logic to it all…. Its not a perfect world for sure : ) I just like the idea of seeing the older people continue to race and have those be bigger and bigger fields, which they have….and if you force guys to race all the time against the same bunch of fast guys then they will never see results and probably get discouraged and stop…..and I know the masters guys love the groups racing with their ages and asking them to race against Cat 4/5 guys all the time probably not work either in my mind….. but, hey, we all have choices…promoters, racers etc…..do what you think is best for you and that’s all we can do… as far as down grading..I totally agree that people not getting results as they get older should be able easily to down grade, as long as its not sandbagging….then down grade and then start winning or being on the podium every week in the new lower Cat…. We all like doing well in races, no doubt, as long as people don’t abuse it : )

From: STEVEN R HOLLAND [mailto:srh148@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 1:26 PM
To: Jeff Tedder; 'Salvatore Collura'
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule change I plan to propose for 2016

Jeff,

As a promoter you need to do what is best for you, I agree. However, I have never understood the logic of mixing age categories with skill categories? Masters racing is racing your age peers while category racing is racing your skill level.This is how all OBRA Masters Championship races are scored right? The beginner master always has the option to race as a 4. So he has 2 options, age [masters] or skill [category] the 1/2 master has no option to race his or her age peers unless there is a masters 1/2 race. Now in a state like CA when there are so many masters then I can see offering masters 1/2/3 and 3/4/5 because the numbers will be there. See: Elkhorn masters 1/2/3 and masters 4/5.

STEVEN R HOLLAND

C(360) 600-2702

On Thursday, June 11, 2015 1:07 PM, Jeff Tedder wrote:

The Masters 3 / 4 and 4/5 cats I think have gotten more people involved in racing and not only that but they seem to stay engaged in racing, versus coming out as a rec. rider at 50 plus and getting hammered on in their first race by experienced racers that have been at it for years…. Some of these guys that do these cats actually have a chance to compete and get some results for their efforts, where as if it was an open 50 plus race all the time….The usual suspects would be winning every week, the 50 plus Cat races anymore are pretty friggin fast as we all know…and me as a promoter of a race are going to cater to the majority and give others a chance to do well in races, lets all remember, its about training, having fun and keeping people racing : ) we don’t make a living at this…..versus having the same guys win week in and week out…We might add another Masters race to the Hammer Velo Crit next year, but we will not be dropping the Master 3/4/5 race…..

Jeff

From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Salvatore Collura via OBRA
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 11:54 AM
To: STEVEN R HOLLAND
Cc: OBRA List
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule change I plan to propose for 2016

How about if promoters just stop making Masters races 3/4/5.

-sal

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 11, 2015, at 11:48 AM, STEVEN R HOLLAND via OBRA wrote:

I am planning on proposing a rule that would allow any 50 year old OBRA member to have the "option" to self downgrade "one category" without any approval from OBRA. You would be allowed to downgrade as low as a cat 3, no lower.

This is NOT a sandbagger rule, this is meant for older racers that are simply no longer competitive in a category they attained when they were younger.

I believe this will encourage older racers to stay in the sport longer.

I believe this would be "similar" to how cross does it?

Feedback????

STEVEN R HOLLAND

C(360) 600-2702

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stevea.long

I agree Jeff. I think the Master's, categorized races are a good think and make it better for the lower categories but harder for the higher categries. I think that's all good

Steve Long
Lowely race promoter and Wenzel coach. :-)

Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S®4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 11, 2015, at 11:48 AM, STEVEN R HOLLAND via OBRA wrote:

I am planning on proposing a rule that would allow any 50 year old OBRA member to have the "option" to self downgrade "one category" without any approval from OBRA. You would be allowed to downgrade as low as a cat 3, no lower.

This is NOT a sandbagger rule, this is meant for older racers that are simply no longer competitive in a category they attained when they were younger.

I believe this will encourage older racers to stay in the sport longer.

I believe this would be "similar" to how cross does it?

Feedback????





STEVEN R HOLLAND
C(360) 600-2702
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David Hart

Where's the Mike Murray response?
On Jun 11, 2015 2:05 PM, "Jeff Tedder via OBRA" wrote:

> There is logic to it all…. Its not a perfect world for sure : ) I just
> like the idea of seeing the older people continue to race and have those be
> bigger and bigger fields, which they have….and if you force guys to race
> all the time against the same bunch of fast guys then they will never see
> results and probably get discouraged and stop…..and I know the masters guys
> love the groups racing with their ages and asking them to race against Cat
> 4/5 guys all the time probably not work either in my mind….. but, hey, we
> all have choices…promoters, racers etc…..do what you think is best for you
> and that’s all we can do… as far as down grading..I totally agree that
> people not getting results as they get older should be able easily to down
> grade, as long as its not sandbagging….then down grade and then start
> winning or being on the podium every week in the new lower Cat…. We all
> like doing well in races, no doubt, as long as people don’t abuse it : )
>
>
>
> *From:* STEVEN R HOLLAND [mailto:srh148@yahoo.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, June 11, 2015 1:26 PM
> *To:* Jeff Tedder; 'Salvatore Collura'
> *Cc:* obra@list.obra.org
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule
> change I plan to propose for 2016
>
>
>
> Jeff,
>
>
>
> As a promoter you need to do what is best for you, I agree. However, I
> have never understood the logic of mixing age categories with skill
> categories? Masters racing is racing your age peers while category racing
> is racing your skill level.This is how all OBRA Masters Championship races
> are scored right? The beginner master always has the option to race as a
> 4. So he has 2 options, age [masters] or skill [category] the 1/2 master
> has no option to race his or her age peers unless there is a masters 1/2
> race. Now in a state like CA when there are so many masters then I can see
> offering masters 1/2/3 and 3/4/5 because the numbers will be there. See:
> Elkhorn masters 1/2/3 and masters 4/5.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> STEVEN R HOLLAND
>
> C(360) 600-2702
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thursday, June 11, 2015 1:07 PM, Jeff Tedder <
> sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> The Masters 3 / 4 and 4/5 cats I think have gotten more people involved in
> racing and not only that but they seem to stay engaged in racing, versus
> coming out as a rec. rider at 50 plus and getting hammered on in their
> first race by experienced racers that have been at it for years…. Some of
> these guys that do these cats actually have a chance to compete and get
> some results for their efforts, where as if it was an open 50 plus race all
> the time….The usual suspects would be winning every week, the 50 plus Cat
> races anymore are pretty friggin fast as we all know…and me as a promoter
> of a race are going to cater to the majority and give others a chance to do
> well in races, lets all remember, its about training, having fun and
> keeping people racing : ) we don’t make a living at this…..versus having
> the same guys win week in and week out…We might add another Masters race to
> the Hammer Velo Crit next year, but we will not be dropping the Master
> 3/4/5 race…..
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> ] *On Behalf Of *Salvatore Collura via OBRA
> *Sent:* Thursday, June 11, 2015 11:54 AM
> *To:* STEVEN R HOLLAND
> *Cc:* OBRA List
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule
> change I plan to propose for 2016
>
>
>
> How about if promoters just stop making Masters races 3/4/5.
>
>
>
> -sal
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On Jun 11, 2015, at 11:48 AM, STEVEN R HOLLAND via OBRA <
> obra@list.obra.org> wrote:
>
> I am planning on proposing a rule that would allow any 50 year old OBRA
> member to have the "option" to self downgrade "one category" without any
> approval from OBRA. You would be allowed to downgrade as low as a cat 3, no
> lower.
>
>
>
> This is NOT a sandbagger rule, this is meant for older racers that are
> simply no longer competitive in a category they attained when they were
> younger.
>
>
>
> I believe this will encourage older racers to stay in the sport longer.
>
>
>
> I believe this would be "similar" to how cross does it?
>
>
>
> Feedback????
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> STEVEN R HOLLAND
>
> C(360) 600-2702
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

Salvatore Collura

A bike race should be hard to finish, and really really hard to win.

-sal

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 11, 2015, at 1:41 PM, Jeff Tedder wrote:
>
> There is logic to it all…. Its not a perfect world for sure : ) I just like the idea of seeing the older people continue to race and have those be bigger and bigger fields, which they have….and if you force guys to race all the time against the same bunch of fast guys then they will never see results and probably get discouraged and stop…..and I know the masters guys love the groups racing with their ages and asking them to race against Cat 4/5 guys all the time probably not work either in my mind….. but, hey, we all have choices…promoters, racers etc…..do what you think is best for you and that’s all we can do… as far as down grading..I totally agree that people not getting results as they get older should be able easily to down grade, as long as its not sandbagging….then down grade and then start winning or being on the podium every week in the new lower Cat…. We all like doing well in races, no doubt, as long as people don’t abuse it : )
>
> From: STEVEN R HOLLAND [mailto:srh148@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 1:26 PM
> To: Jeff Tedder; 'Salvatore Collura'
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule change I plan to propose for 2016
>
> Jeff,
>
> As a promoter you need to do what is best for you, I agree. However, I have never understood the logic of mixing age categories with skill categories? Masters racing is racing your age peers while category racing is racing your skill level.This is how all OBRA Masters Championship races are scored right? The beginner master always has the option to race as a 4. So he has 2 options, age [masters] or skill [category] the 1/2 master has no option to race his or her age peers unless there is a masters 1/2 race. Now in a state like CA when there are so many masters then I can see offering masters 1/2/3 and 3/4/5 because the numbers will be there. See: Elkhorn masters 1/2/3 and masters 4/5.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> STEVEN R HOLLAND
> C(360) 600-2702
>
>
>
> On Thursday, June 11, 2015 1:07 PM, Jeff Tedder wrote:
>
>
> The Masters 3 / 4 and 4/5 cats I think have gotten more people involved in racing and not only that but they seem to stay engaged in racing, versus coming out as a rec. rider at 50 plus and getting hammered on in their first race by experienced racers that have been at it for years…. Some of these guys that do these cats actually have a chance to compete and get some results for their efforts, where as if it was an open 50 plus race all the time….The usual suspects would be winning every week, the 50 plus Cat races anymore are pretty friggin fast as we all know…and me as a promoter of a race are going to cater to the majority and give others a chance to do well in races, lets all remember, its about training, having fun and keeping people racing : ) we don’t make a living at this…..versus having the same guys win week in and week out…We might add another Masters race to the Hammer Velo Crit next year, but we will not be dropping the Master 3/4/5 race…..
> Jeff
>
>
> From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Salvatore Collura via OBRA
> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 11:54 AM
> To: STEVEN R HOLLAND
> Cc: OBRA List
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule change I plan to propose for 2016
>
> How about if promoters just stop making Masters races 3/4/5.
>
> -sal
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jun 11, 2015, at 11:48 AM, STEVEN R HOLLAND via OBRA wrote:
> I am planning on proposing a rule that would allow any 50 year old OBRA member to have the "option" to self downgrade "one category" without any approval from OBRA. You would be allowed to downgrade as low as a cat 3, no lower.
>
> This is NOT a sandbagger rule, this is meant for older racers that are simply no longer competitive in a category they attained when they were younger.
>
> I believe this will encourage older racers to stay in the sport longer.
>
> I believe this would be "similar" to how cross does it?
>
> Feedback????
>
>
>
>
>
> STEVEN R HOLLAND
> C(360) 600-2702
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Jeff Tedder

There is logic to it all…. Its not a perfect world for sure : ) I just like the idea of seeing the older people continue to race and have those be bigger and bigger fields, which they have….and if you force guys to race all the time against the same bunch of fast guys then they will never see results and probably get discouraged and stop…..and I know the masters guys love the groups racing with their ages and asking them to race against Cat 4/5 guys all the time probably not work either in my mind….. but, hey, we all have choices…promoters, racers etc…..do what you think is best for you and that’s all we can do… as far as down grading..I totally agree that people not getting results as they get older should be able easily to down grade, as long as its not sandbagging….then down grade and then start winning or being on the podium every week in the new lower Cat…. We all like doing well in races, no doubt, as long as people don’t abuse it : )

From: STEVEN R HOLLAND [mailto:srh148@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 1:26 PM
To: Jeff Tedder; 'Salvatore Collura'
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule change I plan to propose for 2016

Jeff,

As a promoter you need to do what is best for you, I agree. However, I have never understood the logic of mixing age categories with skill categories? Masters racing is racing your age peers while category racing is racing your skill level.This is how all OBRA Masters Championship races are scored right? The beginner master always has the option to race as a 4. So he has 2 options, age [masters] or skill [category] the 1/2 master has no option to race his or her age peers unless there is a masters 1/2 race. Now in a state like CA when there are so many masters then I can see offering masters 1/2/3 and 3/4/5 because the numbers will be there. See: Elkhorn masters 1/2/3 and masters 4/5.

STEVEN R HOLLAND

C(360) 600-2702

On Thursday, June 11, 2015 1:07 PM, Jeff Tedder wrote:

The Masters 3 / 4 and 4/5 cats I think have gotten more people involved in racing and not only that but they seem to stay engaged in racing, versus coming out as a rec. rider at 50 plus and getting hammered on in their first race by experienced racers that have been at it for years…. Some of these guys that do these cats actually have a chance to compete and get some results for their efforts, where as if it was an open 50 plus race all the time….The usual suspects would be winning every week, the 50 plus Cat races anymore are pretty friggin fast as we all know…and me as a promoter of a race are going to cater to the majority and give others a chance to do well in races, lets all remember, its about training, having fun and keeping people racing : ) we don’t make a living at this…..versus having the same guys win week in and week out…We might add another Masters race to the Hammer Velo Crit next year, but we will not be dropping the Master 3/4/5 race…..

Jeff

From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Salvatore Collura via OBRA
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 11:54 AM
To: STEVEN R HOLLAND
Cc: OBRA List
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule change I plan to propose for 2016

How about if promoters just stop making Masters races 3/4/5.

-sal

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 11, 2015, at 11:48 AM, STEVEN R HOLLAND via OBRA wrote:

I am planning on proposing a rule that would allow any 50 year old OBRA member to have the "option" to self downgrade "one category" without any approval from OBRA. You would be allowed to downgrade as low as a cat 3, no lower.

This is NOT a sandbagger rule, this is meant for older racers that are simply no longer competitive in a category they attained when they were younger.

I believe this will encourage older racers to stay in the sport longer.

I believe this would be "similar" to how cross does it?

Feedback????

STEVEN R HOLLAND

C(360) 600-2702

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STEVEN R HOLLAND

Jeff,
As a promoter you need to do what is best for you, I agree. However, I have never understood the logic of mixing age categories with skill categories? Masters racing is racing your age peers while category racing is racing your skill level.This is how all OBRA Masters Championship races are scored right?  The beginner master always has the option to race as a 4. So he has 2 options, age [masters] or skill [category] the 1/2 master has no option to race his or her age peers unless there is a masters 1/2 race. Now in a state like CA when there are so many masters then I can see offering masters 1/2/3 and 3/4/5 because the numbers will be there. See: Elkhorn masters 1/2/3 and masters 4/5.

  STEVEN R HOLLANDC(360) 600-2702

On Thursday, June 11, 2015 1:07 PM, Jeff Tedder wrote:

#yiv1691646204 #yiv1691646204 -- _filtered #yiv1691646204 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv1691646204 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv1691646204 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv1691646204 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}#yiv1691646204 #yiv1691646204 p.yiv1691646204MsoNormal, #yiv1691646204 li.yiv1691646204MsoNormal, #yiv1691646204 div.yiv1691646204MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv1691646204 a:link, #yiv1691646204 span.yiv1691646204MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv1691646204 a:visited, #yiv1691646204 span.yiv1691646204MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv1691646204 span.yiv1691646204EmailStyle17 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv1691646204 .yiv1691646204MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv1691646204 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv1691646204 div.yiv1691646204WordSection1 {}#yiv1691646204 The Masters 3 / 4 and 4/5 cats I think have gotten more people involved in racing and not only that but they seem to  stay engaged in racing, versus coming out as a rec. rider at 50 plus and getting hammered on in their first race by experienced racers that have been at it for years…. Some of these guys that do these cats actually have a chance to compete and get some results for their efforts, where as if it was an open 50 plus race all the time….The usual suspects would be winning every week, the 50 plus Cat races anymore are pretty friggin fast as we all know…and me as a promoter of a race are going to cater to the majority and give others a chance to do well in races, lets all remember, its about training, having fun and keeping people racing : ) we don’t make a living at this…..versus having the same guys win week in and week out…We might add another Masters race to the Hammer Velo Crit next year, but we will not be dropping the Master 3/4/5 race….. Jeff    From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Salvatore Collura via OBRA
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 11:54 AM
To: STEVEN R HOLLAND
Cc: OBRA List
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule change I plan to propose for 2016  How about if promoters just stop making Masters races 3/4/5.  -sal

Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 11, 2015, at 11:48 AM, STEVEN R HOLLAND via OBRA wrote:
 I am planning on proposing a rule that would allow any 50 year old OBRA member to have the "option" to self downgrade "one category" without any approval from OBRA. You would be allowed to downgrade as low as a cat 3, no lower.  This is NOT a sandbagger rule, this is meant for older racers that are simply no longer competitive in a category they attained when they were younger.  I believe this will encourage older racers to stay in the sport longer.   I believe this would be "similar" to how cross does it?  Feedback????           STEVEN R HOLLANDC(360) 600-2702

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rond..@spiritone.com

Even though I do not race road, I think you folks would do well to make any changes creating an environment more friendly to older riders. Of course some do not care about it, but if there was some little niche that might keep a person interested I believe it would be good. Just like making the new people feel comfortable, it would be nice to make older riders feel they still had a place. I have always been impressed with OBRA being flexible with regard to making it more attractive to race instead of building more barriers... the opposite of some sanctioning bodies .
ron

From: STEVEN R HOLLAND via OBRA
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 12:29 PM
To: craig austin
Cc: OBRA List
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule change I plan to propose for 2016

Craig,

Agree 100% Why would a rider even want to downgrade if they were "in the points" ??. And I assume you mean upgrade points?

The problem is the downgrade process is "subjective", not a good thing. Currently one man, one man alone decides. There need to be specific guidelines re what is "competitive". Hard to determine right? The best person to determine if they are "competitive" is THAT person, right?

STEVEN R HOLLAND
C(360) 600-2702

On Thursday, June 11, 2015 12:16 PM, craig austin wrote:

Not quite correct; the rules on the OBRA site are the same for 'cross and road (an individual may request a downgrade, and it will be evaluated by OBRA). I think you're thinking of mountain bike rules, which allow a downgrade if a rider has no significant results for two years (or, alternatively, they can do the request/approval).

To me, a results-based downgrade makes perfect sense. If you're not competitive, you won't have results. If you're getting shelled in every race, you probably aren't going to start winning in the next category down, although you will probably be more competitive. If you're still finishing in the points in a road race in your category, then you don't need to downgrade and I don't think it should be allowed just because a rider wants to.

Craig

On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 11:10 AM, STEVEN R HOLLAND via OBRA wrote:

I am planning on proposing a rule that would allow any 50 year old OBRA member to have the "option" to self downgrade "one category" without any approval from OBRA. You would be allowed to downgrade as low as a cat 3, no lower.

This is NOT a sandbagger rule, this is meant for older racers that are simply no longer competitive in a category they attained when they were younger.

I believe this will encourage older racers to stay in the sport longer.

I believe this would be "similar" to how cross does it?

Feedback????

STEVEN R HOLLAND
C(360) 600-2702

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OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Jeff Tedder

The Masters 3 / 4 and 4/5 cats I think have gotten more people involved in racing and not only that but they seem to stay engaged in racing, versus coming out as a rec. rider at 50 plus and getting hammered on in their first race by experienced racers that have been at it for years…. Some of these guys that do these cats actually have a chance to compete and get some results for their efforts, where as if it was an open 50 plus race all the time….The usual suspects would be winning every week, the 50 plus Cat races anymore are pretty friggin fast as we all know…and me as a promoter of a race are going to cater to the majority and give others a chance to do well in races, lets all remember, its about training, having fun and keeping people racing : ) we don’t make a living at this…..versus having the same guys win week in and week out…We might add another Masters race to the Hammer Velo Crit next year, but we will not be dropping the Master 3/4/5 race…..

Jeff

From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Salvatore Collura via OBRA
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 11:54 AM
To: STEVEN R HOLLAND
Cc: OBRA List
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] I need feedback from OBRA members re: a rule change I plan to propose for 2016

How about if promoters just stop making Masters races 3/4/5.

-sal

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 11, 2015, at 11:48 AM, STEVEN R HOLLAND via OBRA wrote:

I am planning on proposing a rule that would allow any 50 year old OBRA member to have the "option" to self downgrade "one category" without any approval from OBRA. You would be allowed to downgrade as low as a cat 3, no lower.

This is NOT a sandbagger rule, this is meant for older racers that are simply no longer competitive in a category they attained when they were younger.

I believe this will encourage older racers to stay in the sport longer.

I believe this would be "similar" to how cross does it?

Feedback????

STEVEN R HOLLAND

C(360) 600-2702

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

STEVEN R HOLLAND

Craig,
Agree 100% Why would a rider even want to downgrade if they were "in the points" ??. And I assume you mean upgrade points?
The problem is the downgrade process is "subjective", not a good thing. Currently one man, one man alone decides. There need to be specific guidelines re what is "competitive". Hard to determine right? The best person to determine if they are "competitive" is THAT person, right?
 STEVEN R HOLLANDC(360) 600-2702

On Thursday, June 11, 2015 12:16 PM, craig austin wrote:

Not quite correct; the rules on the OBRA site are the same for 'cross and road (an individual may request a downgrade, and it will be evaluated by OBRA). I think you're thinking of mountain bike rules, which allow a downgrade if a rider has no significant results for two years (or, alternatively, they can do the request/approval).

To me, a results-based downgrade makes perfect sense. If you're not competitive, you won't have results. If you're getting shelled in every race, you probably aren't going to start winning in the next category down, although you will probably be more competitive. If you're still finishing in the points in a road race in your category, then you don't need to downgrade and I don't think it should be allowed just because a rider wants to.

Craig

On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 11:10 AM, STEVEN R HOLLAND via OBRA wrote:

 I am planning on proposing a rule that would allow any 50 year old OBRA member to have the "option" to self downgrade "one category" without any approval from OBRA. You would be allowed to downgrade as low as a cat 3, no lower.
This is NOT a sandbagger rule, this is meant for older racers that are simply no longer competitive in a category they attained when they were younger.
I believe this will encourage older racers to stay in the sport longer. 
I believe this would be "similar" to how cross does it?
Feedback???? 

STEVEN R HOLLANDC(360) 600-2702
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

craig austin

Not quite correct; the rules on the OBRA site are the same for 'cross and
road (an individual may request a downgrade, and it will be evaluated by
OBRA). I think you're thinking of mountain bike rules, which allow a
downgrade if a rider has no significant results for two years (or,
alternatively, they can do the request/approval).

To me, a results-based downgrade makes perfect sense. If you're not
competitive, you won't have results. If you're getting shelled in every
race, you probably aren't going to start winning in the next category down,
although you will probably be more competitive. If you're still finishing
in the points in a road race in your category, then you don't need to
downgrade and I don't think it should be allowed just because a rider wants
to.

Craig

On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 11:10 AM, STEVEN R HOLLAND via OBRA <
obra@list.obra.org> wrote:

> I am planning on proposing a rule that would allow any 50 year old OBRA
> member to have the "option" to self downgrade "one category" without any
> approval from OBRA. You would be allowed to downgrade as low as a cat 3, no
> lower.
>
> This is NOT a sandbagger rule, this is meant for older racers that are
> simply no longer competitive in a category they attained when they were
> younger.
>
> I believe this will encourage older racers to stay in the sport longer.
>
> I believe this would be "similar" to how cross does it?
>
> Feedback????
>
>
>
>
>
> STEVEN R HOLLAND
> C(360) 600-2702
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

STEVEN R HOLLAND

EVEN BETTER!
 STEVEN R HOLLANDC(360) 600-2702

On Thursday, June 11, 2015 11:53 AM, Salvatore Collura wrote:

How about if promoters just stop making Masters races 3/4/5.
-sal

Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 11, 2015, at 11:48 AM, STEVEN R HOLLAND via OBRA wrote:

 I am planning on proposing a rule that would allow any 50 year old OBRA member to have the "option" to self downgrade "one category" without any approval from OBRA. You would be allowed to downgrade as low as a cat 3, no lower.
This is NOT a sandbagger rule, this is meant for older racers that are simply no longer competitive in a category they attained when they were younger.
I believe this will encourage older racers to stay in the sport longer. 
I believe this would be "similar" to how cross does it?
Feedback???? 

STEVEN R HOLLANDC(360) 600-2702

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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Salvatore Collura

How about if promoters just stop making Masters races 3/4/5.

-sal

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 11, 2015, at 11:48 AM, STEVEN R HOLLAND via OBRA wrote:
>
> I am planning on proposing a rule that would allow any 50 year old OBRA member to have the "option" to self downgrade "one category" without any approval from OBRA. You would be allowed to downgrade as low as a cat 3, no lower.
>
> This is NOT a sandbagger rule, this is meant for older racers that are simply no longer competitive in a category they attained when they were younger.
>
> I believe this will encourage older racers to stay in the sport longer.
>
> I believe this would be "similar" to how cross does it?
>
> Feedback????
>
>
>
>
>
> STEVEN R HOLLAND
> C(360) 600-2702
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

STEVEN R HOLLAND

 I am planning on proposing a rule that would allow any 50 year old OBRA member to have the "option" to self downgrade "one category" without any approval from OBRA. You would be allowed to downgrade as low as a cat 3, no lower.
This is NOT a sandbagger rule, this is meant for older racers that are simply no longer competitive in a category they attained when they were younger.
I believe this will encourage older racers to stay in the sport longer. 
I believe this would be "similar" to how cross does it?
Feedback???? 

STEVEN R HOLLANDC(360) 600-2702