OBRA: OBRA Chat: ] Racing category based on ...

] Racing category based on ability. Or is it?

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Candi Murray/Oregon Bicycle Racing Assn

2003-10-05

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While the rules do not say mandatory upgrade, most riders that qualify just

need a short word, that it is 'time' and they move up. I keep a pretty

close watch on the BAR points and let people know when it is time to stop

sandbagging.

Candi

 -----Original Message-----

 From: jake bigham [mailto:jake-@comcast.net]

 Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2003 22:03 PM

 To: mike.m-@obra.org

 Cc: ob-@topica.com

 Subject: Spam Alert: Re: [OBRA Chat] Racing category based on ability.

Or is it?

 Dan- I don't think the first rule you described is applied in obra land.

from obra website:

 From Cat 5 to Cat 4

 1. Experience in any mass start event

 From a Cat 4 to a Cat 3

 One of the following or any combination

 1. 10 races

 2. 1 full season

 3. 15 points earned by placing in the top 6 (7,5,4,3,2,1)

 4. Any combination of the above

 From a Cat 3 to a Cat 2

 25 points earned by placing in the top 6 (7,5,4,3,2,1) of Cat 3 events

with a minimum field of 50 riders

 From a Cat 2 to a Cat 1

 30 points earned by placing in the top 6 (7,5,4,3,2,1) of Cat 2 events

with a minimum limit of 50 riders

 Juniors and Masters must earn their points in Category events

 ------

 Nowhere do these rules call for "automatic" advancement. It doesn't

matter if you win every single race you enter. There is nothing in the

guidelines or the rule book that calls for advancement unless the rider

wants to advance, at least not that I found with a quick reading. The

guidelines describe when you are allowed to advance, not when you must

advance. If this is true, then I think the answer to your question regarding

age category should be self evident. Besides, even if there were mandatory

advancement for riders who consistently dominate their fields, moving

someone out of their age group into another age group doesn't seem to make

sense. I would like to hear mikes "official" word on mandatory or automatic

advancement. Does that ever happen Mike?

 -Jake Bigham

 On Friday, October 3, 2003, at 01:56 PM, Dan Houghton wrote:

 When I was racing as a cat. 4 [in 1977] under USCF rules, the deal was

that if you won 3 races or placed top 3 in a number of races you were

automatically kicked up a category.

 Why doesn't that work the other way? I mean for masters. If there is

some 50 year old guy regularly winning / placing in the 45+ category, should

that person not be kicked up [or down] an age group?

 Why or why not?

 On Saturday, October 4, 2003, at 04:43 PM, mike.m-@obra.org wrote:

 The OBRA method for upgrading rider ability category is basically

identical to the USCF scheme. For ability graded racing neither USCF or

OBRA have a mechanism for requiring a rider to compete in a younger than his

age category based on ability or performance. You could propose such a

scheme as a rule for OBRA. The method for proposing rules is at the

beginning of the OBRA rules which can be found at:

 http://www.obra.org/word_docs/2003rules.doc

 Personally I don't think it would be a very good idea. Such a scheme

would muddle up age graded and ability graded competition. Race organizers

can already choose to combine the two criteria by limiting age graded racing

to specific race ability categories if they choose. Many do by limiting

Masters races to Cat 3/4/5 riders. Most do not.

 A separate but related issue is the problem of upgrading Cat 3 riders

and riders that compete primarily in Masters fields. Masters fields rarely

meet the upgrade requirements to move a rider past Cat 3 so a talented rider

that only rides Masters will never be forced into Cat 2. Many riders, if

they are old enough, when they get a mandatory upgrade to Cat 2 will not

race Cat 2 but will instead race Masters. Since the mean age of a Cat 3

rider is 36 and the mean age of a Cat 2 or better rider is 33 this is a

fairly substantial issue.

 Mike Murray

 -----Original Message-----

 From: Dan Houghton [mailto:brm-@hotmail.com]

 Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 13:56 PM

 To: ob-@topica.com

 Subject: [OBRA Chat] Racing catagory based on ability. Or is it?

 When I was racing as a cat. 4 [in 1977] under USCF rules, the deal was

that if you won 3 races or placed top 3 in a number of races you were

automatically kicked up a category.

 Why doesn't that work the other way? I mean for masters. If there is

some 50 year old guy regularly winning / placing in the 45+ category, should

that person not be kicked up [or down] an age group?

 Why or why not?

 <image.tiff>

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 Jake Bigham

 2774 SW Summit Dr.

 Portland, OR 97201

 h/ 503 228 1338

 c/ 503 784 1026

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<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>While

the rules do not say mandatory upgrade, most riders that qualify just need a

short word, that it is 'time' and they move up. I keep a pretty close

watch on the BAR points and let people know when it is time to stop

sandbagging.</DIV>

<DIV>Candi</DIV>

 

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<BLOCKQUOTE>

 <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left>-----Original Message----- From: jake bigham

 [mailto:jake-@comcast.net] Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2003 22:03

 PM To: mike.m-@obra.org Cc:

 ob-@topica.com Subject: Spam Alert: Re: [OBRA Chat] Racing

 category based on ability. Or is it? </DIV>Dan- I don't think

 the first rule you described is applied in obra land. from obra

 website: <?fontfamily><?param Trebuchet MS>From Cat 5 to Cat 4

 1. Experience in any mass start event From a Cat 4 to a Cat 3

 One of the following or any combination 1. 10 races 2. 1 full

 season 3. 15 points earned by placing in the top 6 (7,5,4,3,2,1) 4.

 Any combination of the above From a Cat 3 to a Cat 2 25 points

 earned by placing in the top 6 (7,5,4,3,2,1) of Cat 3 events with a minimum

 field of 50 riders From a Cat 2 to a Cat 1 30 points earned by

 placing in the top 6 (7,5,4,3,2,1) of Cat 2 events with a minimum limit of

 50 riders Juniors and Masters must earn their points in Category

 events <?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Trebuchet MS> ------ <?/fontfamily>Nowhere

 do these rules call for "automatic" advancement. It doesn't matter if you

 win every single race you enter. There is nothing in the guidelines or the

 rule book that calls for advancement unless the rider wants to advance, at

 least not that I found with a quick reading. The guidelines describe when

 you are allowed to advance, not when you must advance. If this

 is true, then I think the answer to your question regarding age category

 should be self evident. Besides, even if there were mandatory advancement

 for riders who consistently dominate their fields, moving someone out of

 their age group into another age group doesn't seem to make sense. I would

 like to hear mikes "official" word on mandatory or automatic advancement.

 Does that ever happen Mike? -Jake Bigham On Friday, October

 3, 2003, at 01:56 PM, Dan Houghton wrote: 

 <BLOCKQUOTE><?fontfamily><?param Arial><?smaller>When I was racing as a

 cat. 4 [in 1977] under USCF rules, the deal was that if you won 3 races or

 placed top 3 in a number of races you were automatically kicked up a

 category. Why doesn't that work the other way? I mean for

 masters. If there is some 50 year old guy regularly winning /

 placing in the 45+ category, should that person not be kicked up [or down]

 an age group? Why or why not? <?/smaller><?/fontfamily></BLOCKQUOTE><?fontfamily><?param Arial><?smaller> <?/smaller><?/fontfamily> On

 Saturday, October 4, 2003, at 04:43 PM, mike.m-@obra.org wrote: 

 <BLOCKQUOTE><?fontfamily><?param Arial><?color><?param 0000,0000,FFFF><?smaller>The

 OBRA method for upgrading rider ability category is basically identical to

 the USCF scheme. For ability graded racing neither USCF or OBRA have

 a mechanism for requiring a rider to compete in a younger than his age

 category based on ability or performance. You could propose such a

 scheme as a rule for OBRA. The method for proposing rules is at the

 beginning of the OBRA rules which can be found at:<?/smaller><?/color><?/fontfamily> <?fontfamily><?param Arial><?color><?param 1999,1999,FFFF><?smaller>http://www.obra.org/word_docs/2003rules.doc<?/smaller><?/color><?/fontfamily> <?fontfamily><?param Arial><?color><?param 0000,0000,FFFF><?smaller>Personally

 I don't think it would be a very good idea. Such a scheme would

 muddle up age graded and ability graded competition. Race organizers

 can already choose to combine the two criteria by limiting age graded

 racing to specific race ability categories if they choose. Many do

 by limiting Masters races to Cat 3/4/5 riders. Most do not.<?/smaller><?/color><?/fontfamily> <?fontfamily><?param Arial><?color><?param 0000,0000,FFFF><?smaller>A

 separate but related issue is the problem of upgrading Cat 3 riders and

 riders that compete primarily in Masters fields. Masters fields

 rarely meet the upgrade requirements to move a rider past Cat 3 so a

 talented rider that only rides Masters will never be forced into Cat

 2. Many riders, if they are old enough, when they get a

 mandatory upgrade to Cat 2 will not race Cat 2 but will instead race

 Masters. Since the mean age of a Cat 3 rider is 36 and the mean age

 of a Cat 2 or better rider is 33 this is a fairly substantial issue.<?/smaller><?/color><?/fontfamily> <?smaller>Mike

 Murray<?/smaller> <?fontfamily><?param Tahoma><?smaller>-----Original

 Message----- From: Dan Houghton

 [mailto:brm-@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 13:56

 PM To: ob-@topica.com Subject: [OBRA Chat] Racing

 catagory based on ability. Or is it? <?/smaller><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Arial><?smaller>When

 I was racing as a cat. 4 [in 1977] under USCF rules, the deal was that if

 you won 3 races or placed top 3 in a number of races you were

 automatically kicked up a category. Why doesn't that work the other

 way? I mean for masters. If there is some 50 year old guy regularly

 winning / placing in the 45+ category, should that person not be kicked up

 [or down] an age group? Why or why

 not? <?/smaller><?/fontfamily></BLOCKQUOTE><?fontfamily><?param Arial><?smaller> 

 <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE><image.tiff><?/smaller><?/fontfamily> 

 <BLOCKQUOTE> <?color><?param 1999,1999,FFFF>Instant message in style

 with MSN Messenger 6.0. Download it now FREE!<?/color> <TT><?bigger>To respond to the whole group send

 to ob-@topica.com. To respond to the list manager send to

 ob-@teleport.com To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com<?/bigger></TT> <TT><?bigger>To respond

 to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com. To respond to the list

 manager send to ob-@teleport.com To unsubscribe send to

 obra-uns-@topica.com<?/bigger></TT> <TT><?bigger>--^^--------------------------------------------------------------- This

 email was sent to: jak-@gorge.net EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: <?color><?param 1999,1999,FFFF>http://topica.com/help/unsub.html.amFrZWJA<?/color> Or

 send an email to: obra-uns-@topica.com TOPICA - Start your

 own email discussion group.

 FREE! <?color><?param 1999,1999,FFFF>http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html<?/color> --^^---------------------------------------------------------------<?/bigger></TT> </BLOCKQUOTE>Jake

 Bigham 2774 SW Summit Dr. Portland, OR 97201 h/ 503 228 1338 c/

 503 784 1026 </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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