Piece of Cake Masters field changes

DanF-@cs.com

2004-03-05



Nicely written Ken!



I'm 35 and interested in racing for the first time. Put me in a category where I can at least ride with the peleton most of the way and maybe even see them finish.

I can't ride with cat 1/2/3 guys. Why would they want to race with a group of cat 4/5 people that they would only see at the starting line?



Dan



Ken Finch <kj_f-@yahoo.com> wrote:



 I'll weigh in here.



First of all, this is all icing on the cake. It's just

nice to have these options to discuss and is a sign of

the success of OBRA and the local racing scene.



This is a confusing issue. Generally we rate ourselves

as belonging to a category. Its' some what subjective

of course and that's part of the problem. But

generally there's just too much range of experience

and ability out there in any one given age range to

make racing that much fun for all the lower

categories. I mean there's usually too many Cat 2's

racing in the 35+ (or even 45+)mMasters field for me

to even bother. I'm not going up againt Rich Cramer,

that would be crazy, and he probably wouldn't want me

in the way either.



For all the older Cat. 1 and 2's who say they can't

compete in that field against the younger guys, maybe

it's time to bite the bullet and downgrade? I can

understand how that might be a hard decision to make.

But if you can't compete, that's the bottom line,

right?



So we all have the choice of competing against people

in our ability level just by racing our category and

not paying attention to age. All this talk of heart

rates and younger legs is great, but if your a Cat 2,

you're a Cat 2, it's as simple as that.



That doesn't mean I don't like the idea of having a

masters Cat 4/5, or 1/2 race. If for no other reason

then it might keep the field sizes down a bit and, I

assume, I'll be racing with more experienced and safer

riders. If the promoters can do it, I encourage them

to, because I think it will bring in more racers. And

it's true that the guy (or gal)who gets into racing

for the first time at 40+ years of age, IS a pretty

substantial portion of our demographic. It was me. But

again it's all icing on the cake.



When it comes to National level competition, age

ranges are the only non subjective way to determine

who is really the best, and that's as it should be.

But for local racing, for fun, like we are doing, I

think the Category system ultimately makes for a more

fair and fun experience for all.



--- John Forbes <johnf-@msn.com> wrote:

 How about cat fields for 35+ and 45+. Promoters will

get greater attendance.

A lot of us older 1/2/3's can hang with the senior

fields but it's sure a whole lot more fun to have a

podium chance as we can in strong age group fields.

John Forbes

503-331-6658

2126 NE 12th Ave.

Portland, OR 97212

? ----- Original Message -----

? From: k j

? To: ob-@topica.com

? Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 8:05 PM

? Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters

field changes





? Doesn't being a Cat 1/2 master mean that you

should be able to compete in an

? age group as well

? as in senior 1/2 category? ?It shouldn't matter

what age you are if you are

? licensed

? in the proper category for you ability level.

There are master's who got

? their Cat 1 or 2

? status years ago and hold that level of license

even down the road when they

? might not

? be able to compete at that level as a senior.

What is more right having Cat

? 1/2/3 master's and ?Cat 4/5 master's

? all racing together, or putting everyone 35+ and

everyone 45+ together in

? races regardless of ability level?



? Kent Johnston



? -----Original Message-----

? From: John Wilson [mailto:jfw-@comcast.net]

? Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 7:29 PM

? To: rpcr-@hotmail.com; ob-@topica.com

? Cc: obra-@topica.com

? Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters

field changes





? If you want to race in your category you have an

option. Having masters

? 35+, and 45+ gives you a choice to race against

others of similar age. I

? prefer the latter choice.



? The Cherry Pie, and BB 1 have had great turn out

in the Masters 45+. Why

? not stick with this format ? 10+ years is a big

jump no mater what the

? category!



? John Wilson Masters 45+



? -----Original Message-----

? From: rich cramer [mailto:rpcr-@hotmail.com]

? Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 12:59 PM

? To: ob-@topica.com

? Cc: obra-@topica.com

? Subject: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field

changes



? The Masters fields at Piece of Cake will be

separated by category rather



? than age, these changes should be reflected in the

on-line flyer

? shortly.



? There will be a Masters 35+ race for Cat. 2/3

riders. ?And a separate

? race

? for Masters 35+ Cat. 4/5 riders. ?Start times will

still be approx. the

? same

? as they were before (12:30 pm). ?And same distance

as well (55 miles).



? Therefore for any of you Masters pre-registering,

please give your

? category

? as well as denoting "Masters".



? Thanks, Rich Cramer (Piece of Cake Race Director)

_________________________________________________________________

 ? Learn how to help protect your privacy and prevent

fraud online at Tech

? Hacks & Scams.

http://special.msn.com/msnbc/techsafety.armx



? To respond to the whole group send to

ob-@topica.com.

? To respond to the list manager send to

cmur-@obra.org

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Dave Palmer

2004-03-05



I don't think we should roll along easy for the whole thing, but the first

lap should be neutral, so we can skip the BS of warming up on trainers.



Dave



----- Original Message -----

From: <mike.m-@obra.org>

To: "OBRA Remailer" <ob-@topica.com>

Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 12:43 PM

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field changes





 John Forbes [mailto:johnf-@msn.com]wrote:

"Frankly I'd like 1/2/3 45+ races that race the whole thing instead of

just

 the last lap."



Personally I would like 45+ races limited to people under 5'6" and over

145

 lbs that roll along slowly until the last lap. I don't think that the

participation numbers would be all that big though.



Mike Murray



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MARTEL,MATT (HP-Corvallis,ex1)

2004-03-05



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This is clearly the best idea I have heard yet. Problem is convincing

promoters to do this. I imagine a big part of it is number of riders per

field and logistics. Every race put on adds to the complexity. Number of

fields on the course at any given time, overall length of the event, number

of officials, etc.

We can talk about masters fields all day long but we have to help the

promoters figure out the complexity of having additional fields. Often they

score the women's fields separately. Don't have to hold a separate race.



I applaud Rich Cramer for trying something new.



-----Original Message-----

From: Dan Silvernail [mailto:dansilv-@comcast.net]

Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 9:18 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field changes





Another option would be to do what they do in Seattle, where they have

masters A, which is 35+ cat 1,2,3 (and 45+ cat 1,2,3 if they desire) and

masters B which is 45+ (any cat) and 35 + cat 4/5.







-----Original Message-----

From: John Forbes [mailto:johnf-@msn.com]

Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 9:20 PM

To: k-@kentj.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field changes





How about cat fields for 35+ and 45+. Promoters will get greater attendance.

A lot of us older 1/2/3's can hang with the senior fields but it's sure a

whole lot more fun to have a podium chance as we can in strong age group

fields.

John Forbes

503-331-6658

2126 NE 12th Ave.

Portland, OR 97212



----- Original Message -----

From: k <mailto:k-@kentj.com> j

To: ob-@topica.com <mailto:ob-@topica.com>

Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 8:05 PM

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field changes



Doesn't being a Cat 1/2 master mean that you should be able to compete in an

age group as well

as in senior 1/2 category? It shouldn't matter what age you are if you are

licensed

in the proper category for you ability level. There are master's who got

their Cat 1 or 2

status years ago and hold that level of license even down the road when they

might not

be able to compete at that level as a senior. What is more right having Cat

1/2/3 master's and Cat 4/5 master's

all racing together, or putting everyone 35+ and everyone 45+ together in

races regardless of ability level?



Kent Johnston



-----Original Message-----

From: John Wilson [mailto:jfw-@comcast.net]

Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 7:29 PM

To: rpcr-@hotmail.com <mailto:rpcr-@hotmail.com> ; ob-@topica.com

<mailto:ob-@topica.com>

Cc: obra-@topica.com <mailto:obra-@topica.com>

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field changes





If you want to race in your category you have an option. Having masters

35+, and 45+ gives you a choice to race against others of similar age. I

prefer the latter choice.



The Cherry Pie, and BB 1 have had great turn out in the Masters 45+. Why

not stick with this format ? 10+ years is a big jump no mater what the

category!



John Wilson Masters 45+



-----Original Message-----

From: rich cramer [mailto:rpcr-@hotmail.com]

Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 12:59 PM

To: ob-@topica.com <mailto:ob-@topica.com>

Cc: obra-@topica.com <mailto:obra-@topica.com>

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field changes



The Masters fields at Piece of Cake will be separated by category rather



than age, these changes should be reflected in the on-line flyer

shortly.



There will be a Masters 35+ race for Cat. 2/3 riders. And a separate

race

for Masters 35+ Cat. 4/5 riders. Start times will still be approx. the

same

as they were before (12:30 pm). And same distance as well (55 miles).



Therefore for any of you Masters pre-registering, please give your

category

as well as denoting "Masters".



Thanks, Rich Cramer (Piece of Cake Race Director)



_________________________________________________________________

Learn how to help protect your privacy and prevent fraud online at Tech

Hacks & Scams. http://special.msn.com/msnbc/techsafety.armx

<http://special.msn.com/msnbc/techsafety.armx>



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<DIV><SPAN class=085332816-05032004><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff

size=3>This is clearly the best idea I have heard yet. Problem is convincing

promoters to do this. I imagine a big part of it is number of riders per field

and logistics. Every race put on adds to the complexity. Number of fields on the

course at any given time, overall length of the event, number of officials,

etc.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=085332816-05032004><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff

size=3>We can talk about masters fields all day long but we have to help the

promoters figure out the complexity of having additional fields. Often they

score the women's fields separately. Don't have to hold a separate

race.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=085332816-05032004><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff

size=3></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=085332816-05032004><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff

size=3>I applaud Rich Cramer for trying something new.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=085332816-05032004></SPAN> </DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma

size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Dan Silvernail

[mailto:dansilv-@comcast.net] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, March 04, 2004

9:18 PM<BR><B>To:</B> ob-@topica.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [OBRA Chat] Piece

of Cake Masters field changes<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=640081605-05032004><FONT size=3>Another option would be to do

what they do in Seattle, where they have masters A, which is 35+ cat 1,2,3 (and

45+ cat 1,2,3 if they desire) and masters B which is 45+ (any cat) and 35 + cat

4/5.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=640081605-05032004><FONT size=3></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=640081605-05032004></SPAN> </DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma

size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> John Forbes

[mailto:johnf-@msn.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, March 04, 2004 9:20

PM<BR><B>To:</B> k-@kentj.com; ob-@topica.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [OBRA

Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field changes<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>

<DIV>

<DIV>How about cat fields for 35+ and 45+. Promoters <U>will </U>get greater

attendance.</DIV>

<DIV>A lot of us older 1/2/3's can hang with the senior fields but it's sure a

whole lot more fun to have a podium chance as we can in strong age group

fields.</DIV>

<DIV>John Forbes<BR>503-331-6658<BR>2126 NE 12th Ave.<BR>Portland, OR

97212</DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>

    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A href="mailto:k-@kentj.com">k

    j</A> </DIV>

    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A

    href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A> </DIV>

    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, March 04, 2004 8:05

    PM</DIV>

    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake

    Masters field changes</DIV>

    <DIV><BR></DIV>Doesn't being a Cat 1/2 master mean that you should be able

    to compete in an<BR>age group as well<BR>as in senior 1/2 category?  It

    shouldn't matter what age you are if you are<BR>licensed<BR>in the proper

    category for you ability level.  There are master's who got<BR>their

    Cat 1 or 2<BR>status years ago and hold that level of license even down the

    road when they<BR>might not<BR>be able to compete at that level as a

    senior.  What is more right having Cat<BR>1/2/3 master's and  Cat

    4/5 master's<BR>all racing together, or putting everyone 35+ and everyone

    45+ together in<BR>races regardless of ability level?<BR><BR>Kent

    Johnston<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: John Wilson

    [mailto:jfw-@comcast.net]<BR>Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 7:29 PM<BR>To:

    <A href="mailto:rpcr-@hotmail.com">rpcr-@hotmail.com</A>; <A

    href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A><BR>Cc: <A

    href="mailto:obra-@topica.com">obra-@topica.com</A><BR>Subject: RE:

    [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field changes<BR><BR><BR>If you want to

    race in your category you have an option. Having masters<BR>35+, and 45+

    gives you a choice to race against others of similar age. I<BR>prefer the

    latter choice.<BR><BR>The Cherry Pie, and BB 1 have had great turn out in

    the Masters 45+. Why<BR>not stick with this format ? 10+ years is a big jump

    no mater what the<BR>category!<BR><BR>John Wilson Masters

    45+<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: rich cramer

    [mailto:rpcr-@hotmail.com]<BR>Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 12:59

    PM<BR>To: <A href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A><BR>Cc: <A

    href="mailto:obra-@topica.com">obra-@topica.com</A><BR>Subject: [OBRA

    Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field changes<BR><BR>The Masters fields at Piece

    of Cake will be separated by category rather<BR><BR>than age, these changes

    should be reflected in the on-line flyer<BR>shortly.<BR><BR>There will be a

    Masters 35+ race for Cat. 2/3 riders.  And a separate<BR>race<BR>for

    Masters 35+ Cat. 4/5 riders.  Start times will still be approx.

    the<BR>same<BR>as they were before (12:30 pm).  And same distance as

    well (55 miles).<BR><BR>Therefore for any of you Masters pre-registering,

    please give your<BR>category<BR>as well as denoting

    "Masters".<BR><BR>Thanks, Rich Cramer (Piece of Cake Race

    Director)<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Learn

    how to help protect your privacy and prevent fraud online at Tech<BR>Hacks

    & Scams. <A

    href="http://special.msn.com/msnbc/techsafety.armx">http://special.msn.com/msnbc/techsafety.armx</A><BR><BR>To

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mike.m-@obra.org

2004-03-05



John Forbes [mailto:johnf-@msn.com]wrote:

"Frankly I'd like 1/2/3 45+ races that race the whole thing instead of just

the last lap."



Personally I would like 45+ races limited to people under 5'6" and over 145

lbs that roll along slowly until the last lap. I don't think that the

participation numbers would be all that big though.



Mike Murray



Ken Finch

2004-03-05



I'll weigh in here.



First of all, this is all icing on the cake. It's just

nice to have these options to discuss and is a sign of

the success of OBRA and the local racing scene.



This is a confusing issue. Generally we rate ourselves

as belonging to a category. Its' some what subjective

of course and that's part of the problem. But

generally there's just too much range of experience

and ability out there in any one given age range to

make racing that much fun for all the lower

categories. I mean there's usually too many Cat 2's

racing in the 35+ (or even 45+)mMasters field for me

to even bother. I'm not going up againt Rich Cramer,

that would be crazy, and he probably wouldn't want me

in the way either.



For all the older Cat. 1 and 2's who say they can't

compete in that field against the younger guys, maybe

it's time to bite the bullet and downgrade? I can

understand how that might be a hard decision to make.

But if you can't compete, that's the bottom line,

right?



So we all have the choice of competing against people

in our ability level just by racing our category and

not paying attention to age. All this talk of heart

rates and younger legs is great, but if your a Cat 2,

you're a Cat 2, it's as simple as that.



That doesn't mean I don't like the idea of having a

masters Cat 4/5, or 1/2 race. If for no other reason

then it might keep the field sizes down a bit and, I

assume, I'll be racing with more experienced and safer

riders. If the promoters can do it, I encourage them

to, because I think it will bring in more racers. And

it's true that the guy (or gal)who gets into racing

for the first time at 40+ years of age, IS a pretty

substantial portion of our demographic. It was me. But

again it's all icing on the cake.



When it comes to National level competition, age

ranges are the only non subjective way to determine

who is really the best, and that's as it should be.

But for local racing, for fun, like we are doing, I

think the Category system ultimately makes for a more

fair and fun experience for all.



--- John Forbes <johnf-@msn.com> wrote:

 How about cat fields for 35+ and 45+. Promoters will

get greater attendance.

A lot of us older 1/2/3's can hang with the senior

fields but it's sure a whole lot more fun to have a

podium chance as we can in strong age group fields.

John Forbes

503-331-6658

2126 NE 12th Ave.

Portland, OR 97212

   ----- Original Message -----

   From: k j

   To: ob-@topica.com

   Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 8:05 PM

   Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters

field changes





   Doesn't being a Cat 1/2 master mean that you

should be able to compete in an

   age group as well

   as in senior 1/2 category? It shouldn't matter

what age you are if you are

   licensed

   in the proper category for you ability level.

There are master's who got

   their Cat 1 or 2

   status years ago and hold that level of license

even down the road when they

   might not

   be able to compete at that level as a senior.

What is more right having Cat

   1/2/3 master's and Cat 4/5 master's

   all racing together, or putting everyone 35+ and

everyone 45+ together in

   races regardless of ability level?



   Kent Johnston



   -----Original Message-----

   From: John Wilson [mailto:jfw-@comcast.net]

   Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 7:29 PM

   To: rpcr-@hotmail.com; ob-@topica.com

   Cc: obra-@topica.com

   Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters

field changes





   If you want to race in your category you have an

option. Having masters

   35+, and 45+ gives you a choice to race against

others of similar age. I

   prefer the latter choice.



   The Cherry Pie, and BB 1 have had great turn out

in the Masters 45+. Why

   not stick with this format ? 10+ years is a big

jump no mater what the

   category!



   John Wilson Masters 45+



   -----Original Message-----

   From: rich cramer [mailto:rpcr-@hotmail.com]

   Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 12:59 PM

   To: ob-@topica.com

   Cc: obra-@topica.com

   Subject: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field

changes



   The Masters fields at Piece of Cake will be

separated by category rather



   than age, these changes should be reflected in the

on-line flyer

   shortly.



   There will be a Masters 35+ race for Cat. 2/3

riders. And a separate

   race

   for Masters 35+ Cat. 4/5 riders. Start times will

still be approx. the

   same

   as they were before (12:30 pm). And same distance

as well (55 miles).



   Therefore for any of you Masters pre-registering,

please give your

   category

   as well as denoting "Masters".



   Thanks, Rich Cramer (Piece of Cake Race Director)

_________________________________________________________________

    Learn how to help protect your privacy and prevent

fraud online at Tech

   Hacks & Scams.

http://special.msn.com/msnbc/techsafety.armx



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Schreck, George

2004-03-05



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I Agree with Bruce. As you get older, age is a better indicator of overall

ability for most riders than category. Frankly, many of the higher category

masters riders probably are not that competitive in the their category in a

seniors race, so the category does not mean that much and is more of an

artifact left over from their prior years' experience. The fact is that I

was a lot stringer and faster at age 35 than I an at age 52 not matter how

much I train or how much experience I get. Sooner or later, basic

physiological changes take over as we age. If I lose to someone who is

netter than me in my age group, so be it, and they should not be penalized

because their superiority is recognized by a higher category rating.



-----Original Message-----

From: Bruce Werner [mailto:bruce_-@pgn.com]

Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 6:03 PM

To: te-@easystreet.com; rpcr-@hotmail.com; mike.m-@obra.org

Cc: ever-@teamrosecity.org; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field changes







I think Ted's point is that there is a large contingent of 45+ riders that

are showing up to race this year. At Cherry Pie the 45+ field was much

larger than the 35-44 field (results say 40 vs 25). Banana belt also had a

surprisingly large turnout of 45+ riders ( results say 38 vs 20). The

question is; Is there a large group of Cat 4/5 35+ Masters who are

currently not racing Masters 35+, but will if they have a category? Do we

know how many masters 35+ 4/5's are racing the 4/5's for all ages? I think

the preference to have a 45+ Masters field is based on the idea of competing

against similar heart rates. There is a substantial difference in maximum

and sustainable output between someone who is 35 - 39 and 45+ regardless of

category (with a few notable exceptions). The decision on what categories to

promote should be made! on who is racing, and so far this year the 45+

Masters have been showing up in surprising numbers.



   <mike.m-@obra.org> 03/04/2004 4:47:25 PM >>>



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<DIV><SPAN class=009165916-05032004>I Agree with Bruce. As you get older, age

is

a better indicator of overall ability for most riders than category. 

Frankly, many of the higher category masters riders probably are not that

competitive in the their category in a seniors race, so the category does not

mean that much and is more of an artifact left over from their prior years'

experience.  The fact is that I was a lot stringer and faster at age 35

than I an at age 52 not matter how much I train or how much experience I

get.  Sooner or later, basic physiological changes take over as we

age.  If I lose to someone who is netter than me in my age group, so be

it,

and they should not be penalized because their superiority is recognized by a

higher category rating.</SPAN></DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>-----Original

Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Bruce Werner [mailto:bruce_-@pgn.com]

<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, March 04, 2004 6:03 PM<BR><B>To:</B>

te-@easystreet.com; rpcr-@hotmail.com;

mike.m-@obra.org<BR><B>Cc:</B>

ever-@teamrosecity.org; ob-@topica.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [OBRA

Chat]

Piece of Cake Masters field changes<BR><BR></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>I think Ted's point is that there is a large contingent of 45+

riders that are showing up to race this year. At Cherry Pie the

45+

field was much larger than the 35-44 field (results say 40 vs 25).

Banana

belt also had a surprisingly large turnout of 45+ riders ( results say

38

vs 20). The question is;  Is there a large group of Cat

4/5 35+ Masters who are currently not racing Masters

35+, but will if they have a category? Do we know

how many masters 35+ 4/5's are racing the 4/5's

for all ages? I think the preference to have a 45+

Masters

field is based on the idea of competing against similar heart

rates.

There is a substantial difference in maximum and sustainable

output between someone who is 35 - 39 and 45+ regardless

of category (with a few notable exceptions). The decision on what

categories to promote should be made! on who is racing, and

so

far this year the 45+ Masters have been showing up in

surprising numbers. <BR><BR>>>> <mike.m-@obra.org>

03/04/2004 4:47:25 PM >>><BR></DIV><PRE>To respond to the whole

group send to ob-@topica.com.

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<br>

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JOHN FORBES

2004-03-04



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Frankly I'd like 1/2/3 45+ races that race the whole thing instead of just the last lap.

John Forbes

503-331-6658

2126 NE 12th Ave.

Portland, OR 97212

----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Magnus

To: mike.m-@obra.org

Cc: te-@easystreet.com ; rpcr-@hotmail.com ; Team Rose City ; 'obra'

Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 9:53 PM

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field changes





For what it's worth folks, has anyone noticed in the past few years that

Most of the crashes have been in the Masters fields? It used to be that

the cat 4/5 fields were where most of the crashes occured.



From my not so impartial position it appears to me that Masters Races have

attracted fields that have a large number of 4/5 riders that are just

strong enoungh to hang with the field, especially when there is not that

much "racing" and then you have large packs at the end comprised of floks

who are still learning how to ride tight in a pack at speed, sprinting not

able to maintain adaquate control of their bikes. I will add "shame on

those that know better and don't race the race in the first place"



I have now stepped off the soapbox....



Ron Magnus

Portland, OR



On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 mike.m-@obra.org wrote:



> There are WAY more Masters 4/5 that will be happy with this then there are

> Masters Cat 2/3 45+ that will be bothered. From a demographic point of view

> it is likely that division by category rather than age will draw more riders

> rather than less. Ted's conclusion is not supported by the data.

>

> Mike Murray

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Ted Forgeron [mailto:te-@easystreet.com]

> Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 13:45 PM

> To: rpcr-@hotmail.com

> Cc: Team Rose City; 'obra'

> Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field changes

>

>

> Rich,

>

> This really sucks for the members of Team Rose City. We are almost all over

> 45 and always look forward to the races with a 45+ field. There were 38

> riders in the 45+ Banana Belt last Sunday in spite of the somewhat nasty

> weather. What is your reasoning? This will potentially discourage the

> large group of older riders from your race.

>

> --Ted

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: rich cramer [mailto:rpcr-@hotmail.com]

> Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 12:59 PM

> To: ob-@topica.com

> Cc: obra-@topica.com

> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field changes

>

> The Masters fields at Piece of Cake will be separated by category rather

> than age, these changes should be reflected in the on-line flyer shortly.

>

> There will be a Masters 35+ race for Cat. 2/3 riders. And a separate race

> for Masters 35+ Cat. 4/5 riders. Start times will still be approx. the same

>

> as they were before (12:30 pm). And same distance as well (55 miles).

>

> Therefore for any of you Masters pre-registering, please give your category

> as well as denoting "Masters".

>

> Thanks, Rich Cramer (Piece of Cake Race Director)

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Learn how to help protect your privacy and prevent fraud online at Tech

> Hacks & Scams. http://special.msn.com/msnbc/techsafety.armx

>

> To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

> To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

> To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

>

> To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

> To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

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>

> To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

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> To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

>

>

>

>

>

>

>



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<DIV>

<DIV>Frankly I'd like 1/2/3 45+ races that race the whole thing instead of just

the last lap.</DIV>

<DIV>John Forbes<BR>503-331-6658<BR>2126 NE 12th Ave.<BR>Portland, OR

97212</DIV>

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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A

href="mailto:ro-@hevanet.com">Ron Magnus</A> </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A

href="mailto:mike.m-@obra.org">mike.m-@obra.org</A> </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A

href="mailto:te-@easystreet.com">te-@easystreet.com</A> ; <A

href="mailto:rpcr-@hotmail.com">rpcr-@hotmail.com</A> ; <A

href="mailto:ever-@teamrosecity.org">Team Rose City</A> ; <A

href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">'obra'</A> </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, March 04, 2004 9:53

PM</DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake

Masters field changes</DIV>

<DIV><BR></DIV>For what it's worth folks, has anyone noticed in the past few

years that<BR>Most of the crashes have been in the Masters fields?  It

used to be that<BR>the cat 4/5 fields were where most of the crashes

occured.<BR><BR>From my not so impartial position it appears to me that

Masters Races have<BR>attracted fields that have a large number of 4/5 riders

that are just<BR>strong enoungh to hang with the field, especially when there

is not that<BR>much "racing" and then you have large packs at the end

comprised of floks<BR>who are still learning how to ride tight in a pack at

speed, sprinting not<BR>able to maintain adaquate control of their

bikes.  I will add "shame on<BR>those that know better and don't race the

race in the first place"<BR><BR>I have now stepped off the

soapbox....<BR><BR>Ron Magnus<BR>Portland, OR<BR><BR>On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 <A

href="mailto:mike.m-@obra.org">mike.m-@obra.org</A> wrote:<BR><BR>>

There are WAY more Masters 4/5 that will be happy with this then there

are<BR>> Masters Cat 2/3 45+ that will be bothered.  From a

demographic point of view<BR>> it is likely that division by category

rather than age will draw more riders<BR>> rather than less.  Ted's

conclusion is not supported by the data.<BR>><BR>> Mike

Murray<BR>><BR>> -----Original Message-----<BR>> From: Ted Forgeron

[mailto:te-@easystreet.com]<BR>> Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 13:45

PM<BR>> To: <A

href="mailto:rpcr-@hotmail.com">rpcr-@hotmail.com</A><BR>> Cc: Team

Rose City; 'obra'<BR>> Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field

changes<BR>><BR>><BR>> Rich,<BR>><BR>> This really sucks for

the members of Team Rose City.  We are almost all over<BR>> 45 and

always look forward to the races with a 45+ field.  There were 38<BR>>

riders in the 45+ Banana Belt last Sunday in spite of the somewhat

nasty<BR>> weather.  What is your reasoning?  This will

potentially discourage the<BR>> large group of older riders from your

race.<BR>><BR>> --Ted<BR>><BR>> -----Original Message-----<BR>>

From: rich cramer [mailto:rpcr-@hotmail.com]<BR>> Sent: Thursday, March

04, 2004 12:59 PM<BR>> To: <A

href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A><BR>> Cc: <A

href="mailto:obra-@topica.com">obra-@topica.com</A><BR>> Subject:

[OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field changes<BR>><BR>> The Masters

fields at Piece of Cake will be separated by category rather<BR>> than age,

these changes should be reflected in the on-line flyer

shortly.<BR>><BR>> There will be a Masters 35+ race for Cat. 2/3

riders.  And a separate race<BR>> for Masters 35+ Cat. 4/5

riders.  Start times will still be approx. the same<BR>><BR>> as

they were before (12:30 pm).  And same distance as well (55

miles).<BR>><BR>> Therefore for any of you Masters pre-registering,

please give your category<BR>> as well as denoting

"Masters".<BR>><BR>> Thanks, Rich Cramer (Piece of Cake Race

Director)<BR>><BR>>

_________________________________________________________________<BR>>

Learn how to help protect your privacy and prevent fraud online at

Tech<BR>> Hacks & Scams. <A

href="http://special.msn.com/msnbc/techsafety.armx">http://special.msn.com/msnbc/techsafety.armx</A><BR>><BR>>

To respond to the whole group send to <A

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Ron Magnus

2004-03-04



For what it's worth folks, has anyone noticed in the past few years that

Most of the crashes have been in the Masters fields? It used to be that

the cat 4/5 fields were where most of the crashes occured.



From my not so impartial position it appears to me that Masters Races have

attracted fields that have a large number of 4/5 riders that are just

strong enoungh to hang with the field, especially when there is not that

much "racing" and then you have large packs at the end comprised of floks

who are still learning how to ride tight in a pack at speed, sprinting not

able to maintain adaquate control of their bikes. I will add "shame on

those that know better and don't race the race in the first place"



I have now stepped off the soapbox....



Ron Magnus

Portland, OR



On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 mike.m-@obra.org wrote:



 There are WAY more Masters 4/5 that will be happy with this then there are

Masters Cat 2/3 45+ that will be bothered. From a demographic point of view

it is likely that division by category rather than age will draw more riders

rather than less. Ted's conclusion is not supported by the data.



Mike Murray



-----Original Message-----

From: Ted Forgeron [mailto:te-@easystreet.com]

Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 13:45 PM

To: rpcr-@hotmail.com

Cc: Team Rose City; 'obra'

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field changes





Rich,



This really sucks for the members of Team Rose City. We are almost all over

45 and always look forward to the races with a 45+ field. There were 38

riders in the 45+ Banana Belt last Sunday in spite of the somewhat nasty

weather. What is your reasoning? This will potentially discourage the

large group of older riders from your race.



--Ted



-----Original Message-----

From: rich cramer [mailto:rpcr-@hotmail.com]

Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 12:59 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Cc: obra-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field changes



The Masters fields at Piece of Cake will be separated by category rather

than age, these changes should be reflected in the on-line flyer shortly.



There will be a Masters 35+ race for Cat. 2/3 riders. And a separate race

for Masters 35+ Cat. 4/5 riders. Start times will still be approx. the same



as they were before (12:30 pm). And same distance as well (55 miles).



Therefore for any of you Masters pre-registering, please give your category

as well as denoting "Masters".



Thanks, Rich Cramer (Piece of Cake Race Director)



_________________________________________________________________

Learn how to help protect your privacy and prevent fraud online at Tech

Hacks & Scams. http://special.msn.com/msnbc/techsafety.armx



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Dan Silvernail

2004-03-04



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Another option would be to do what they do in Seattle, where they have

masters A, which is 35+ cat 1,2,3 (and 45+ cat 1,2,3 if they desire) and

masters B which is 45+ (any cat) and 35 + cat 4/5.





-----Original Message-----

From: John Forbes [mailto:johnf-@msn.com]

Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 9:20 PM

To: k-@kentj.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field changes





How about cat fields for 35+ and 45+. Promoters will get greater

attendance.

A lot of us older 1/2/3's can hang with the senior fields but it's sure a

whole lot more fun to have a podium chance as we can in strong age group

fields.

John Forbes

503-331-6658

2126 NE 12th Ave.

Portland, OR 97212

    ----- Original Message -----

    From: k j

    To: ob-@topica.com

    Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 8:05 PM

    Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field changes





    Doesn't being a Cat 1/2 master mean that you should be able to compete

in an

    age group as well

    as in senior 1/2 category? It shouldn't matter what age you are if you

are

    licensed

    in the proper category for you ability level. There are master's who

got

    their Cat 1 or 2

    status years ago and hold that level of license even down the road when

they

    might not

    be able to compete at that level as a senior. What is more right having

Cat

    1/2/3 master's and Cat 4/5 master's

    all racing together, or putting everyone 35+ and everyone 45+ together

in

    races regardless of ability level?



    Kent Johnston



    -----Original Message-----

    From: John Wilson [mailto:jfw-@comcast.net]

    Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 7:29 PM

    To: rpcr-@hotmail.com; ob-@topica.com

    Cc: obra-@topica.com

    Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field changes





    If you want to race in your category you have an option. Having masters

    35+, and 45+ gives you a choice to race against others of similar age. I

    prefer the latter choice.



    The Cherry Pie, and BB 1 have had great turn out in the Masters 45+. Why

    not stick with this format ? 10+ years is a big jump no mater what the

    category!



    John Wilson Masters 45+



    -----Original Message-----

    From: rich cramer [mailto:rpcr-@hotmail.com]

    Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 12:59 PM

    To: ob-@topica.com

    Cc: obra-@topica.com

    Subject: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field changes



    The Masters fields at Piece of Cake will be separated by category rather



    than age, these changes should be reflected in the on-line flyer

    shortly.



    There will be a Masters 35+ race for Cat. 2/3 riders. And a separate

    race

    for Masters 35+ Cat. 4/5 riders. Start times will still be approx. the

    same

    as they were before (12:30 pm). And same distance as well (55 miles).



    Therefore for any of you Masters pre-registering, please give your

    category

    as well as denoting "Masters".



    Thanks, Rich Cramer (Piece of Cake Race Director)



    _________________________________________________________________

    Learn how to help protect your privacy and prevent fraud online at Tech

    Hacks & Scams. http://special.msn.com/msnbc/techsafety.armx



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<DIV><SPAN class=640081605-05032004><FONT size=3>Another option would be to do

what they do in Seattle, where they have masters A, which is 35+ cat 1,2,3 (and

45+ cat 1,2,3 if they desire) and masters B which is 45+ (any cat) and 35 + cat

4/5.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=640081605-05032004><FONT size=3></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=640081605-05032004></SPAN> </DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma

size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> John Forbes

[mailto:johnf-@msn.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, March 04, 2004 9:20

PM<BR><B>To:</B> k-@kentj.com; ob-@topica.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [OBRA

Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field changes<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>

<DIV>

<DIV>How about cat fields for 35+ and 45+. Promoters <U>will </U>get greater

attendance.</DIV>

<DIV>A lot of us older 1/2/3's can hang with the senior fields but it's sure a

whole lot more fun to have a podium chance as we can in strong age group

fields.</DIV>

<DIV>John Forbes<BR>503-331-6658<BR>2126 NE 12th Ave.<BR>Portland, OR

97212</DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>

    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A href="mailto:k-@kentj.com">k

    j</A> </DIV>

    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A

    href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A> </DIV>

    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, March 04, 2004 8:05

    PM</DIV>

    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake

    Masters field changes</DIV>

    <DIV><BR></DIV>Doesn't being a Cat 1/2 master mean that you should be able

    to compete in an<BR>age group as well<BR>as in senior 1/2 category?  It

    shouldn't matter what age you are if you are<BR>licensed<BR>in the proper

    category for you ability level.  There are master's who got<BR>their

    Cat 1 or 2<BR>status years ago and hold that level of license even down the

    road when they<BR>might not<BR>be able to compete at that level as a

    senior.  What is more right having Cat<BR>1/2/3 master's and  Cat

    4/5 master's<BR>all racing together, or putting everyone 35+ and everyone

    45+ together in<BR>races regardless of ability level?<BR><BR>Kent

    Johnston<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: John Wilson

    [mailto:jfw-@comcast.net]<BR>Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 7:29 PM<BR>To:

    <A href="mailto:rpcr-@hotmail.com">rpcr-@hotmail.com</A>; <A

    href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A><BR>Cc: <A

    href="mailto:obra-@topica.com">obra-@topica.com</A><BR>Subject: RE:

    [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field changes<BR><BR><BR>If you want to

    race in your category you have an option. Having masters<BR>35+, and 45+

    gives you a choice to race against others of similar age. I<BR>prefer the

    latter choice.<BR><BR>The Cherry Pie, and BB 1 have had great turn out in

    the Masters 45+. Why<BR>not stick with this format ? 10+ years is a big jump

    no mater what the<BR>category!<BR><BR>John Wilson Masters

    45+<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: rich cramer

    [mailto:rpcr-@hotmail.com]<BR>Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 12:59

    PM<BR>To: <A href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A><BR>Cc: <A

    href="mailto:obra-@topica.com">obra-@topica.com</A><BR>Subject: [OBRA

    Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field changes<BR><BR>The Masters fields at Piece

    of Cake will be separated by category rather<BR><BR>than age, these changes

    should be reflected in the on-line flyer<BR>shortly.<BR><BR>There will be a

    Masters 35+ race for Cat. 2/3 riders.  And a separate<BR>race<BR>for

    Masters 35+ Cat. 4/5 riders.  Start times will still be approx.

    the<BR>same<BR>as they were before (12:30 pm).  And same distance as

    well (55 miles).<BR><BR>Therefore for any of you Masters pre-registering,

    please give your<BR>category<BR>as well as denoting

    "Masters".<BR><BR>Thanks, Rich Cramer (Piece of Cake Race

    Director)<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Learn

    how to help protect your privacy and prevent fraud online at Tech<BR>Hacks

    & Scams. <A

    href="http://special.msn.com/msnbc/techsafety.armx">http://special.msn.com/msnbc/techsafety.armx</A><BR><BR>To

    respond to the whole group send to <A

    href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A>.<BR>To respond to the list

    manager send to <A href="mailto:cmur-@obra.org">cmur-@obra.org</A><BR>To

    unsubscribe send to <A

    href="mailto:obra-uns-@topica.com">obra-uns-@topica.com</A><BR><BR>To

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    href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A>.<BR>To respond to the list

    manager send to <A href="mailto:cmur-@obra.org">cmur-@obra.org</A><BR>To

    unsubscribe send to <A

    href="mailto:obra-uns-@topica.com">obra-uns-@topica.com</A><BR><BR>To

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    href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A>.<BR>To respond to the list

    manager send to <A href="mailto:cmur-@obra.org">cmur-@obra.org</A><BR>To

    unsubscribe send to <A <PRE>To respond to the whole group send to

    ob-@topica.com. To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org To

    unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com<PRE></PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>



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JOHN FORBES

2004-03-04



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How about cat fields for 35+ and 45+. Promoters will get greater attendance.

A lot of us older 1/2/3's can hang with the senior fields but it's sure a whole lot more fun to have a podium chance as we can in strong age group fields.

John Forbes

503-331-6658

2126 NE 12th Ave.

Portland, OR 97212

----- Original Message -----

From: k j

To: ob-@topica.com

Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 8:05 PM

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field changes





Doesn't being a Cat 1/2 master mean that you should be able to compete in an

age group as well

as in senior 1/2 category? It shouldn't matter what age you are if you are

licensed

in the proper category for you ability level. There are master's who got

their Cat 1 or 2

status years ago and hold that level of license even down the road when they

might not

be able to compete at that level as a senior. What is more right having Cat

1/2/3 master's and Cat 4/5 master's

all racing together, or putting everyone 35+ and everyone 45+ together in

races regardless of ability level?



Kent Johnston



-----Original Message-----

From: John Wilson [mailto:jfw-@comcast.net]

Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 7:29 PM

To: rpcr-@hotmail.com; ob-@topica.com

Cc: obra-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field changes





If you want to race in your category you have an option. Having masters

35+, and 45+ gives you a choice to race against others of similar age. I

prefer the latter choice.



The Cherry Pie, and BB 1 have had great turn out in the Masters 45+. Why

not stick with this format ? 10+ years is a big jump no mater what the

category!



John Wilson Masters 45+



-----Original Message-----

From: rich cramer [mailto:rpcr-@hotmail.com]

Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 12:59 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Cc: obra-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field changes



The Masters fields at Piece of Cake will be separated by category rather



than age, these changes should be reflected in the on-line flyer

shortly.



There will be a Masters 35+ race for Cat. 2/3 riders. And a separate

race

for Masters 35+ Cat. 4/5 riders. Start times will still be approx. the

same

as they were before (12:30 pm). And same distance as well (55 miles).



Therefore for any of you Masters pre-registering, please give your

category

as well as denoting "Masters".



Thanks, Rich Cramer (Piece of Cake Race Director)



_________________________________________________________________

Learn how to help protect your privacy and prevent fraud online at Tech

Hacks & Scams. http://special.msn.com/msnbc/techsafety.armx



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



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<DIV>

<DIV>How about cat fields for 35+ and 45+. Promoters <U>will </U>get greater

attendance.</DIV>

<DIV>A lot of us older 1/2/3's can hang with the senior fields but it's sure a

whole lot more fun to have a podium chance as we can in strong age group

fields.</DIV>

<DIV>John Forbes<BR>503-331-6658<BR>2126 NE 12th Ave.<BR>Portland, OR

97212</DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A href="mailto:k-@kentj.com">k

j</A> </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A

href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A> </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, March 04, 2004 8:05

PM</DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake

Masters field changes</DIV>

<DIV><BR></DIV>Doesn't being a Cat 1/2 master mean that you should be able to

compete in an<BR>age group as well<BR>as in senior 1/2 category?  It

shouldn't matter what age you are if you are<BR>licensed<BR>in the proper

category for you ability level.  There are master's who got<BR>their Cat

1 or 2<BR>status years ago and hold that level of license even down the road

when they<BR>might not<BR>be able to compete at that level as a senior. 

What is more right having Cat<BR>1/2/3 master's and  Cat 4/5

master's<BR>all racing together, or putting everyone 35+ and everyone 45+

together in<BR>races regardless of ability level?<BR><BR>Kent

Johnston<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: John Wilson

[mailto:jfw-@comcast.net]<BR>Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 7:29 PM<BR>To:

<A href="mailto:rpcr-@hotmail.com">rpcr-@hotmail.com</A>; <A

href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A><BR>Cc: <A

href="mailto:obra-@topica.com">obra-@topica.com</A><BR>Subject: RE:

[OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field changes<BR><BR><BR>If you want to race

in your category you have an option. Having masters<BR>35+, and 45+ gives you

a choice to race against others of similar age. I<BR>prefer the latter

choice.<BR><BR>The Cherry Pie, and BB 1 have had great turn out in the Masters

45+. Why<BR>not stick with this format ? 10+ years is a big jump no mater what

the<BR>category!<BR><BR>John Wilson Masters 45+<BR><BR>-----Original

Message-----<BR>From: rich cramer [mailto:rpcr-@hotmail.com]<BR>Sent:

Thursday, March 04, 2004 12:59 PM<BR>To: <A

href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A><BR>Cc: <A

href="mailto:obra-@topica.com">obra-@topica.com</A><BR>Subject: [OBRA

Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field changes<BR><BR>The Masters fields at Piece

of Cake will be separated by category rather<BR><BR>than age, these changes

should be reflected in the on-line flyer<BR>shortly.<BR><BR>There will be a

Masters 35+ race for Cat. 2/3 riders.  And a separate<BR>race<BR>for

Masters 35+ Cat. 4/5 riders.  Start times will still be approx.

the<BR>same<BR>as they were before (12:30 pm).  And same distance as well

(55 miles).<BR><BR>Therefore for any of you Masters pre-registering, please

give your<BR>category<BR>as well as denoting "Masters".<BR><BR>Thanks, Rich

Cramer (Piece of Cake Race

Director)<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Learn

how to help protect your privacy and prevent fraud online at Tech<BR>Hacks

& Scams. <A

href="http://special.msn.com/msnbc/techsafety.armx">http://special.msn.com/msnbc/techsafety.armx</A><BR><BR>To

respond to the whole group send to <A

href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A>.<BR>To respond to the list

manager send to <A href="mailto:cmur-@obra.org">cmur-@obra.org</A><BR>To

unsubscribe send to <A

href="mailto:obra-uns-@topica.com">obra-uns-@topica.com</A><BR><BR>To

respond to the whole group send to <A

href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A>.<BR>To respond to the list

manager send to <A href="mailto:cmur-@obra.org">cmur-@obra.org</A><BR>To

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href="mailto:obra-uns-@topica.com">obra-uns-@topica.com</A><BR><BR>To

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href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A>.<BR>To respond to the list

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unsubscribe send to <A



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Kent Johnston

2004-03-04



Doesn't being a Cat 1/2 master mean that you should be able to compete in an

age group as well

as in senior 1/2 category? It shouldn't matter what age you are if you are

licensed

in the proper category for you ability level. There are master's who got

their Cat 1 or 2

status years ago and hold that level of license even down the road when they

might not

be able to compete at that level as a senior. What is more right having Cat

1/2/3 master's and Cat 4/5 master's

all racing together, or putting everyone 35+ and everyone 45+ together in

races regardless of ability level?



Kent Johnston



-----Original Message-----

From: John Wilson [mailto:jfw-@comcast.net]

Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 7:29 PM

To: rpcr-@hotmail.com; ob-@topica.com

Cc: obra-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field changes





If you want to race in your category you have an option. Having masters

35+, and 45+ gives you a choice to race against others of similar age. I

prefer the latter choice.



The Cherry Pie, and BB 1 have had great turn out in the Masters 45+. Why

not stick with this format ? 10+ years is a big jump no mater what the

category!



John Wilson Masters 45+



-----Original Message-----

From: rich cramer [mailto:rpcr-@hotmail.com]

Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 12:59 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Cc: obra-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field changes



The Masters fields at Piece of Cake will be separated by category rather



than age, these changes should be reflected in the on-line flyer

shortly.



There will be a Masters 35+ race for Cat. 2/3 riders. And a separate

race

for Masters 35+ Cat. 4/5 riders. Start times will still be approx. the

same

as they were before (12:30 pm). And same distance as well (55 miles).



Therefore for any of you Masters pre-registering, please give your

category

as well as denoting "Masters".



Thanks, Rich Cramer (Piece of Cake Race Director)



_________________________________________________________________

Learn how to help protect your privacy and prevent fraud online at Tech

Hacks & Scams. http://special.msn.com/msnbc/techsafety.armx



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

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Darell Provencher

2004-03-04



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Based on changing demographics these changes should not be surprising. Our generation grew up with daily PE classes in high school. Today's 45+ athletes also have more discretionary spending power and more time to train. How much do you want to bet that in 10 more years we'll be talking about having 60+ category races, while the 35+ stays flat or even decreases? I think we should be focusing more on age demographics in the masters categories than on category numbers (i.e., 1/2, 3, 4/5). Just take a look at the demographics of the OBRA membership. Smart promoters can make a little more money and received more praise from riders if they pay attention to these key market indicators.



-- Darell



----- Original Message -----

From: Bruce Werner

To: te-@easystreet.com ; rpcr-@hotmail.com ; mike.m-@obra.org

Cc: ever-@teamrosecity.org ; ob-@topica.com

Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 6:03 PM

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field changes







I think Ted's point is that there is a large contingent of 45+ riders that are showing up to race this year. At Cherry Pie the 45+ field was much larger than the 35-44 field (results say 40 vs 25). Banana belt also had a surprisingly large turnout of 45+ riders ( results say 38 vs 20). The question is; Is there a large group of Cat 4/5 35+ Masters who are currently not racing Masters 35+, but will if they have a category? Do we know how many masters 35+ 4/5's are racing the 4/5's for all ages? I think the preference to have a 45+ Masters field is based on the idea of competing against similar heart rates. There is a substantial difference in maximum and sustainable output between someone who is 35 - 39 and 45+ regardless of category (with a few notable exceptions). The decision on what categories to promote should be made on who is racing, and so far this year the 45+ Masters have been showing up in surprising numbers.



>>> <mike.m-@obra.org> 03/04/2004 4:47:25 PM >>>



There are WAY more Masters 4/5 that will be happy with this then there are

Masters Cat 2/3 45+ that will be bothered. From a demographic point of view

it is likely that division by category rather than age will draw more riders

rather than less. Ted's conclusion is not supported by the data.



Mike Murray



-----Original Message-----

From: Ted Forgeron [mailto:te-@easystreet.com]

Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 13:45 PM

To: rpcr-@hotmail.com

Cc: Team Rose City; 'obra'

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field changes





Rich,



This really sucks for the members of Team Rose City. We are almost all over

45 and always look forward to the races with a 45+ field. There were 38

riders in the 45+ Banana Belt last Sunday in spite of the somewhat nasty

weather. What is your reasoning? This will potentially discourage the

large group of older riders from your race.



--Ted



-----Original Message-----

From: rich cramer [mailto:rpcr-@hotmail.com]

Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 12:59 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Cc: obra-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field changes



The Masters fields at Piece of Cake will be separated by category rather

than age, these changes should be reflected in the on-line flyer shortly.



There will be a Masters 35+ race for Cat. 2/3 riders. And a separate race

for Masters 35+ Cat. 4/5 riders. Start times will still be approx. the same



as they were before (12:30 pm). And same distance as well (55 miles).



Therefore for any of you Masters pre-registering, please give your category

as well as denoting "Masters".



Thanks, Rich Cramer (Piece of Cake Race Director)



_________________________________________________________________

Learn how to help protect your privacy and prevent fraud online at Tech

Hacks & Scams. http://special.msn.com/msnbc/techsafety.armx



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Based on changing demographics these changes should not be

surprising. Our generation grew up with daily PE classes in high school. Today's

45+ athletes also have more discretionary spending power and more time to train.

How much do you want to bet that in 10 more years we'll be talking about having

60+ category races, while the 35+ stays flat or even decreases? I think we

should be focusing more on age demographics in the masters categories than on

category numbers (i.e., 1/2, 3, 4/5). Just take a look at the demographics of

the OBRA membership. Smart promoters can make a little more money and received

more praise from riders if they pay attention to these key market

indicators.</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial>-- Darell</FONT></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>

<DIV

style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>

<A title=Bru-@pgn.com href="mailto:Bruce_-@pgn.com">Bruce

Werner</A> </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title-@easystreet.com

href="mailto:te-@easystreet.com">te-@easystreet.com</A> ; <A

title=r-@hotmail.com

href="mailto:rpcr-@hotmail.com">rpcr-@hotmail.com</A> ; <A

title=mik-@obra.org

href="mailto:mike.m-@obra.org">mike.m-@obra.org</A> </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=e-@teamrosecity.org

href="mailto:ever-@teamrosecity.org">ever-@teamrosecity.org</A> ; <A

title-@topica.com href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A> </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, March 04, 2004 6:03

PM</DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake

Masters field changes</DIV>

<DIV><BR></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>I think Ted's point is that there is a large contingent of 45+

riders that are showing up to race this year. At Cherry Pie the 45+

field was much larger than the 35-44 field (results say 40 vs 25). Banana

belt also had a surprisingly large turnout of 45+ riders ( results say 38

vs 20). The question is;  Is there a large group of Cat

4/5 35+ Masters who are currently not racing Masters

35+, but will if they have a category? Do we know

how many masters 35+ 4/5's are racing the 4/5's

for all ages? I think the preference to have a 45+ Masters

field is based on the idea of competing against similar heart rates.

There is a substantial difference in maximum and sustainable

output between someone who is 35 - 39 and 45+ regardless

of category (with a few notable exceptions). The decision on what

categories to promote should be made on who is racing, and so

far this year the 45+ Masters have been showing up in

surprising numbers. <BR><BR>>>> <mike.m-@obra.org>

03/04/2004 4:47:25 PM >>><BR></DIV>

<DIV style="COLOR: #000000">There are WAY more Masters 4/5 that will be happy

with this then there are<BR>Masters Cat 2/3 45+ that will be bothered. 

From a demographic point of view<BR>it is likely that division by category

rather than age will draw more riders<BR>rather than less.  Ted's

conclusion is not supported by the data.<BR><BR>Mike

Murray<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: Ted Forgeron [<A

href="mailto:te-@easystreet.com]">mailto:te-@easystreet.com]</A><BR>Sent:

Thursday, March 04, 2004 13:45 PM<BR>To: rpcr-@hotmail.com<BR>Cc: Team Rose

City; 'obra'<BR>Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field

changes<BR><BR><BR>Rich,<BR><BR>This really sucks for the members of Team Rose

City.  We are almost all over<BR>45 and always look forward to the races

with a 45+ field.  There were 38<BR>riders in the 45+ Banana Belt last

Sunday in spite of the somewhat nasty<BR>weather.  What is your

reasoning?  This will potentially discourage the<BR>large group of older

riders from your race.<BR><BR>--Ted<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From:

rich cramer [<A

href="mailto:rpcr-@hotmail.com]">mailto:rpcr-@hotmail.com]</A><BR>Sent:

Thursday, March 04, 2004 12:59 PM<BR>To: ob-@topica.com<BR>Cc:

obra-@topica.com<BR>Subject: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field

changes<BR><BR>The Masters fields at Piece of Cake will be separated by

category rather<BR>than age, these changes should be reflected in the on-line

flyer shortly.<BR><BR>There will be a Masters 35+ race for Cat. 2/3

riders.  And a separate race<BR>for Masters 35+ Cat. 4/5 riders. 

Start times will still be approx. the same<BR><BR>as they were before (12:30

pm).  And same distance as well (55 miles).<BR><BR>Therefore for any of

you Masters pre-registering, please give your category<BR>as well as denoting

"Masters".<BR><BR>Thanks, Rich Cramer (Piece of Cake Race

Director)<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Learn

how to help protect your privacy and prevent fraud online at Tech<BR>Hacks

& Scams. <A

href="http://special.msn.com/msnbc/techsafety.armx">http://special.msn.com/msnbc/techsafety.armx</A><BR><BR>To

respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.<BR>To respond to the list

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jfw-@comcast.net

2004-03-04



If you want to race in your category you have an option. Having masters

35+, and 45+ gives you a choice to race against others of similar age. I

prefer the latter choice.



The Cherry Pie, and BB 1 have had great turn out in the Masters 45+. Why

not stick with this format ? 10+ years is a big jump no mater what the

category!



John Wilson Masters 45+



-----Original Message-----

From: rich cramer [mailto:rpcr-@hotmail.com]

Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 12:59 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Cc: obra-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field changes



The Masters fields at Piece of Cake will be separated by category rather



than age, these changes should be reflected in the on-line flyer

shortly.



There will be a Masters 35+ race for Cat. 2/3 riders. And a separate

race

for Masters 35+ Cat. 4/5 riders. Start times will still be approx. the

same

as they were before (12:30 pm). And same distance as well (55 miles).



Therefore for any of you Masters pre-registering, please give your

category

as well as denoting "Masters".



Thanks, Rich Cramer (Piece of Cake Race Director)



_________________________________________________________________

Learn how to help protect your privacy and prevent fraud online at Tech

Hacks & Scams. http://special.msn.com/msnbc/techsafety.armx



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JOHN FORBES

2004-03-04



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Those of us over 45, in my case way over 45, work really hard in our 45+ groups. On some courses I can stay with the 35+ guys but not as a completive racer while with guys closer to my age I am there.

Ironically, the largest groups in our races this year are in the 45 and 50 + groups.



John Forbes

503-331-6658

2126 NE 12th Ave.

Portland, OR 97212

----- Original Message -----

From: mike.m-@obra.org

To: te-@easystreet.com ; rpcr-@hotmail.com

Cc: Team Rose City ; 'obra'

Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 4:47 PM

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field changes





There are WAY more Masters 4/5 that will be happy with this then there are

Masters Cat 2/3 45+ that will be bothered. From a demographic point of view

it is likely that division by category rather than age will draw more riders

rather than less. Ted's conclusion is not supported by the data.



Mike Murray



-----Original Message-----

From: Ted Forgeron [mailto:te-@easystreet.com]

Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 13:45 PM

To: rpcr-@hotmail.com

Cc: Team Rose City; 'obra'

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field changes





Rich,



This really sucks for the members of Team Rose City. We are almost all over

45 and always look forward to the races with a 45+ field. There were 38

riders in the 45+ Banana Belt last Sunday in spite of the somewhat nasty

weather. What is your reasoning? This will potentially discourage the

large group of older riders from your race.



--Ted



-----Original Message-----

From: rich cramer [mailto:rpcr-@hotmail.com]

Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 12:59 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Cc: obra-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field changes



The Masters fields at Piece of Cake will be separated by category rather

than age, these changes should be reflected in the on-line flyer shortly.



There will be a Masters 35+ race for Cat. 2/3 riders. And a separate race

for Masters 35+ Cat. 4/5 riders. Start times will still be approx. the same



as they were before (12:30 pm). And same distance as well (55 miles).



Therefore for any of you Masters pre-registering, please give your category

as well as denoting "Masters".



Thanks, Rich Cramer (Piece of Cake Race Director)



_________________________________________________________________

Learn how to help protect your privacy and prevent fraud online at Tech

Hacks & Scams. http://special.msn.com/msnbc/techsafety.armx



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

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<DIV>

<DIV>Those of us over 45, in my case way over 45, work really hard in our 45+

groups.  On some courses I can stay with the 35+ guys but not as a

completive racer while with guys closer to my age I am there. </DIV>

<DIV>Ironically, the largest groups in our races this year are in the 45 and 50

+ groups.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>John Forbes<BR>503-331-6658<BR>2126 NE 12th Ave.<BR>Portland, OR

97212</DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A

href="mailto:mike.m-@obra.org">mike.m-@obra.org</A> </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A

href="mailto:te-@easystreet.com">te-@easystreet.com</A> ; <A

href="mailto:rpcr-@hotmail.com">rpcr-@hotmail.com</A> </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A

href="mailto:ever-@teamrosecity.org">Team Rose City</A> ; <A

href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">'obra'</A> </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, March 04, 2004 4:47

PM</DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake

Masters field changes</DIV>

<DIV><BR></DIV>There are WAY more Masters 4/5 that will be happy with this

then there are<BR>Masters Cat 2/3 45+ that will be bothered.  From a

demographic point of view<BR>it is likely that division by category rather

than age will draw more riders<BR>rather than less.  Ted's conclusion is

not supported by the data.<BR><BR>Mike Murray<BR><BR>-----Original

Message-----<BR>From: Ted Forgeron [mailto:te-@easystreet.com]<BR>Sent:

Thursday, March 04, 2004 13:45 PM<BR>To: <A

href="mailto:rpcr-@hotmail.com">rpcr-@hotmail.com</A><BR>Cc: Team Rose

City; 'obra'<BR>Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field

changes<BR><BR><BR>Rich,<BR><BR>This really sucks for the members of Team Rose

City.  We are almost all over<BR>45 and always look forward to the races

with a 45+ field.  There were 38<BR>riders in the 45+ Banana Belt last

Sunday in spite of the somewhat nasty<BR>weather.  What is your

reasoning?  This will potentially discourage the<BR>large group of older

riders from your race.<BR><BR>--Ted<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From:

rich cramer [mailto:rpcr-@hotmail.com]<BR>Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004

12:59 PM<BR>To: <A href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A><BR>Cc: <A

href="mailto:obra-@topica.com">obra-@topica.com</A><BR>Subject: [OBRA

Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field changes<BR><BR>The Masters fields at Piece

of Cake will be separated by category rather<BR>than age, these changes should

be reflected in the on-line flyer shortly.<BR><BR>There will be a Masters 35+

race for Cat. 2/3 riders.  And a separate race<BR>for Masters 35+ Cat.

4/5 riders.  Start times will still be approx. the same<BR><BR>as they

were before (12:30 pm).  And same distance as well (55

miles).<BR><BR>Therefore for any of you Masters pre-registering, please give

your category<BR>as well as denoting "Masters".<BR><BR>Thanks, Rich Cramer

(Piece of Cake Race

Director)<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Learn

how to help protect your privacy and prevent fraud online at Tech<BR>Hacks

& Scams. <A

href="http://special.msn.com/msnbc/techsafety.armx">http://special.msn.com/msnbc/techsafety.armx</A><BR><BR>To

respond to the whole group send to <A

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Adams, Mike

2004-03-04



I thought my idea a month ago was a good alternative 35+ Masters and 45+ masters who cares about category, 35 year old legs against 45 no matter what cat, usually win out. It's called recovery time. I am sure there a small percentage of 45+ Masters, somewhere in the world that could ride the legs of any 35+ masters, but the percentages are small within obra and if you can than go div III. Just an opinion already given.

Mike



-----Original Message-----

From: mike.m-@obra.org [mailto:mike.m-@obra.org]

Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 4:47 PM

To: te-@easystreet.com; rpcr-@hotmail.com

Cc: Team Rose City; 'obra'

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field changes





There are WAY more Masters 4/5 that will be happy with this then there are

Masters Cat 2/3 45+ that will be bothered. From a demographic point of view

it is likely that division by category rather than age will draw more riders

rather than less. Ted's conclusion is not supported by the data.



Mike Murray



-----Original Message-----

From: Ted Forgeron [mailto:te-@easystreet.com]

Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 13:45 PM

To: rpcr-@hotmail.com

Cc: Team Rose City; 'obra'

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field changes





Rich,



This really sucks for the members of Team Rose City. We are almost all over

45 and always look forward to the races with a 45+ field. There were 38

riders in the 45+ Banana Belt last Sunday in spite of the somewhat nasty

weather. What is your reasoning? This will potentially discourage the

large group of older riders from your race.



--Ted



-----Original Message-----

From: rich cramer [mailto:rpcr-@hotmail.com]

Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 12:59 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Cc: obra-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field changes



The Masters fields at Piece of Cake will be separated by category rather

than age, these changes should be reflected in the on-line flyer shortly.



There will be a Masters 35+ race for Cat. 2/3 riders. And a separate race

for Masters 35+ Cat. 4/5 riders. Start times will still be approx. the same



as they were before (12:30 pm). And same distance as well (55 miles).



Therefore for any of you Masters pre-registering, please give your category

as well as denoting "Masters".



Thanks, Rich Cramer (Piece of Cake Race Director)



_________________________________________________________________

Learn how to help protect your privacy and prevent fraud online at Tech

Hacks & Scams. http://special.msn.com/msnbc/techsafety.armx



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

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Bruce Werner

2004-03-04



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I think Ted's point is that there is a large contingent of 45+ riders that are showing up to race this year. At Cherry Pie the 45+ field was much larger than the 35-44 field (results say 40 vs 25). Banana belt also had a surprisingly large turnout of 45+ riders ( results say 38 vs 20). The question is; Is there a large group of Cat 4/5 35+ Masters who are currently not racing Masters 35+, but will if they have a category? Do we know how many masters 35+ 4/5's are racing the 4/5's for all ages? I think the preference to have a 45+ Masters field is based on the idea of competing against similar heart rates. There is a substantial difference in maximum and sustainable output between someone who is 35 - 39 and 45+ regardless of category (with a few notable exceptions). The decision on what categories to promote should be made on who is racing, and so far this year the 45+ Masters have been showing up in surprising numbers.



   <mike.m-@obra.org> 03/04/2004 4:47:25 PM >>>



There are WAY more Masters 4/5 that will be happy with this then there are

Masters Cat 2/3 45+ that will be bothered. From a demographic point of view

it is likely that division by category rather than age will draw more riders

rather than less. Ted's conclusion is not supported by the data.



Mike Murray



-----Original Message-----

From: Ted Forgeron [mailto:te-@easystreet.com]

Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 13:45 PM

To: rpcr-@hotmail.com

Cc: Team Rose City; 'obra'

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field changes





Rich,



This really sucks for the members of Team Rose City. We are almost all over

45 and always look forward to the races with a 45+ field. There were 38

riders in the 45+ Banana Belt last Sunday in spite of the somewhat nasty

weather. What is your reasoning? This will potentially discourage the

large group of older riders from your race.



--Ted



-----Original Message-----

From: rich cramer [mailto:rpcr-@hotmail.com]

Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 12:59 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Cc: obra-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field changes



The Masters fields at Piece of Cake will be separated by category rather

than age, these changes should be reflected in the on-line flyer shortly.



There will be a Masters 35+ race for Cat. 2/3 riders. And a separate race

for Masters 35+ Cat. 4/5 riders. Start times will still be approx. the same



as they were before (12:30 pm). And same distance as well (55 miles).



Therefore for any of you Masters pre-registering, please give your category

as well as denoting "Masters".



Thanks, Rich Cramer (Piece of Cake Race Director)



_________________________________________________________________

Learn how to help protect your privacy and prevent fraud online at Tech

Hacks & Scams. http://special.msn.com/msnbc/techsafety.armx



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

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<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>I think Ted's point is that there is a large contingent of 45+ riders that are showing up to race this year. At Cherry Pie the 45+ field was much larger than the 35-44 field (results say 40 vs 25). Banana belt also had a surprisingly large turnout of 45+ riders ( results say 38 vs 20). The question is;  Is there a large group of Cat 4/5 35+ Masters who are currently not racing Masters 35+, but will if they have a category? Do we know how many masters 35+ 4/5's are racing the 4/5's for all ages? I think the preference to have a 45+ Masters field is based on the idea of competing against similar heart rates. There is a substantial difference in maximum and sustainable output between someone who is 35 - 39 and 45+ regardless of category (with a few notable exceptions). The decision on what categories to promote should be made on who is racing, and so far this year the 45+ Masters have been showing up in surprising numbers. <BR><BR>>>> <mike.m-@obra.org> 03/04/2004 4:47:25 PM >>><BR></DIV>



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mike.m-@obra.org

2004-03-04



There are WAY more Masters 4/5 that will be happy with this then there are

Masters Cat 2/3 45+ that will be bothered. From a demographic point of view

it is likely that division by category rather than age will draw more riders

rather than less. Ted's conclusion is not supported by the data.



Mike Murray



-----Original Message-----

From: Ted Forgeron [mailto:te-@easystreet.com]

Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 13:45 PM

To: rpcr-@hotmail.com

Cc: Team Rose City; 'obra'

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field changes





Rich,



This really sucks for the members of Team Rose City. We are almost all over

45 and always look forward to the races with a 45+ field. There were 38

riders in the 45+ Banana Belt last Sunday in spite of the somewhat nasty

weather. What is your reasoning? This will potentially discourage the

large group of older riders from your race.



--Ted



-----Original Message-----

From: rich cramer [mailto:rpcr-@hotmail.com]

Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 12:59 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Cc: obra-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field changes



The Masters fields at Piece of Cake will be separated by category rather

than age, these changes should be reflected in the on-line flyer shortly.



There will be a Masters 35+ race for Cat. 2/3 riders. And a separate race

for Masters 35+ Cat. 4/5 riders. Start times will still be approx. the same



as they were before (12:30 pm). And same distance as well (55 miles).



Therefore for any of you Masters pre-registering, please give your category

as well as denoting "Masters".



Thanks, Rich Cramer (Piece of Cake Race Director)



_________________________________________________________________

Learn how to help protect your privacy and prevent fraud online at Tech

Hacks & Scams. http://special.msn.com/msnbc/techsafety.armx



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

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Ron Magnus

2004-03-04



Thank you Rich, that may help things out.





Ron



martin cohen

2004-03-04



Rich:



I applaud your decision to divide the Master's field into categories. As

a 49 yr.old, cat. 4 with only 2 1/2 years riding/racing experience,

these types of events are hard to come by. You mean I will not have to

race with ex-pro's now? Yeah!! Thank you.



Martin



rich cramer wrote:

 

The Masters fields at Piece of Cake will be separated by category rather



than age, these changes should be reflected in the on-line flyer

shortly.



There will be a Masters 35+ race for Cat. 2/3 riders. And a separate

race

for Masters 35+ Cat. 4/5 riders. Start times will still be approx. the

same

as they were before (12:30 pm). And same distance as well (55 miles).



Therefore for any of you Masters pre-registering, please give your

category

as well as denoting "Masters".



Thanks, Rich Cramer (Piece of Cake Race Director)



_________________________________________________________________

Learn how to help protect your privacy and prevent fraud online at Tech

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te-@easystreet.com

2004-03-04



Rich,



This really sucks for the members of Team Rose City. We are almost all over

45 and always look forward to the races with a 45+ field. There were 38

riders in the 45+ Banana Belt last Sunday in spite of the somewhat nasty

weather. What is your reasoning? This will potentially discourage the

large group of older riders from your race.



--Ted



-----Original Message-----

From: rich cramer [mailto:rpcr-@hotmail.com]

Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 12:59 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Cc: obra-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Piece of Cake Masters field changes



The Masters fields at Piece of Cake will be separated by category rather

than age, these changes should be reflected in the on-line flyer shortly.



There will be a Masters 35+ race for Cat. 2/3 riders. And a separate race

for Masters 35+ Cat. 4/5 riders. Start times will still be approx. the same



as they were before (12:30 pm). And same distance as well (55 miles).



Therefore for any of you Masters pre-registering, please give your category

as well as denoting "Masters".



Thanks, Rich Cramer (Piece of Cake Race Director)



_________________________________________________________________

Learn how to help protect your privacy and prevent fraud online at Tech

Hacks & Scams. http://special.msn.com/msnbc/techsafety.armx



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



rich cramer

2004-03-04



The Masters fields at Piece of Cake will be separated by category rather

than age, these changes should be reflected in the on-line flyer shortly.



There will be a Masters 35+ race for Cat. 2/3 riders. And a separate race

for Masters 35+ Cat. 4/5 riders. Start times will still be approx. the same

as they were before (12:30 pm). And same distance as well (55 miles).



Therefore for any of you Masters pre-registering, please give your category

as well as denoting "Masters".



Thanks, Rich Cramer (Piece of Cake Race Director)



_________________________________________________________________

Learn how to help protect your privacy and prevent fraud online at Tech

Hacks & Scams. http://special.msn.com/msnbc/techsafety.armx