Devin Bailly

Hey everyone,
I just got off the phone with David Noble - the director of Riverview
Cemetary. I had a very nice and lengthy conversation with him. He has
given his blessing to ride through Riverview. I will provide more details
of the enlightening conversation later. Gotta run now.
Ride bikes. Be nice.
Devin Bailly

On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 5:18 PM, Devin Bailly wrote:

> Wow! Thanks for the input everyone. As the organizer of the Giro PDX,
> your opinions about riding through the cemetery are valued and appreciated.
> Thanks also for the compliments and endorsements of the route!
>
> Ironically, I tried to keep my original announcement brief to be
> respectful about using OBRA resources for a non-OBRA event. I didn't
> realize the huge thread it would create! So now that it's rolling, I'll
> chime in.
>
> The last thing I want is to be considered the person responsible for
> tolling the death knell for cycling in Riverview Cemetery. Therefore, my
> default plan is to re-route the initial climb up Palatine Hill Road instead
> of Riverview. It's a nice climb on a public road. The downside is a
> riding a little longer on Hwy 43. But most of it is two lane so we can
> safely take the right lane en masse.
>
> My backup plan is to ride through the cemetery if and only if I get
> explicit permission from David Noble - director of Riverview for whom I
> have already left a voice mail expressing my knowledge of the tenuous
> status of cycling there and my respect for the property and his wishes. I
> look forward to a conversation with him in which I represent the cycling
> community professionally and respectfully, without any entitlement.
>
> If everything was equal, I think the route is better going through the
> cemetery. However, everything is NOT equal since one option 1 uses only
> public roads and option 2 includes private property. When plotting the
> route last year I definitely ensured all the cut-throughs I use are public
> rights of way and the three city parks we go through on single track trails
> legitimately allow bicycles.
>
> Regardless of how this all shakes out, it promises to be a great day of
> riding. And this year I am offering a 200% guarantee - double your money
> back if the temperature is higher than today's. I hope you can make it.
> The Madonna del Ghisallo anticipates your homage at the top of Cook's Butte.
>
> New default route eliminates cemetery - https://ridewithgps.com/
> routes/23818256
> Backup route contingent on explicit permission - https://ridewithgps.com/
> ambassador_routes/968-giro-pdx-le-foglie-morte-di-sud-portland
> Event page - https://www.facebook.com/events/301659963640122/?
> active_tab=about
>
> Stay cool.
> Devin Bailly
>
> On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 4:33 PM, Mike Murray via OBRA
> wrote:
>
>> Nope, you’ve got that wrong. What people are saying is that they would
>> like
>> to preserve the ability to have individuals and small groups use that
>> route
>> and not have that tenuously provided position mucked up by having a crowd
>> ride through. My guess is that a large group of even impeccably behaving
>> cyclists will cause "issues" with the owner of the property. At the very
>> least the organizer of the ride should get express permission owners.
>> Ideally that would have been done before going public with plans.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of DC via OBRA
>> Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2017 14:33
>> To: obra@list.obra.org
>> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Giro PDX 8/27
>>
>> Good, it's sounds like we all agree on a plan: in order to not risk losing
>> access to Riverview, let's not use Riverview. That route is just so
>> fantastic, we would be devastated if we couldn't ride it anymore, so let's
>> not ride it anymore! I think that makes perfect sense. Flawless logic.
>>
>> Obviously sarcasm there, but in truth what some of you are saying is you
>> want to ride it, yet you don't want others to. Sorry, either it's open to
>> everyone, or open to no one (regardless on their brand of clothing). It's
>> not fair to assume that there'll be jerks who ruin it for everyone on this
>> ride. As I said from the beginning, I don't doubt the organizer will make
>> a
>> point at the start of the ride to say: "please ride slowly and
>> respectfully
>> through the cemetery." All you needed to do from the beginning was ask the
>> organizer to do that, instead of implying those who do the Giro are more
>> disrespectful riders than the rest. After all, because it is an organized
>> ride, with announcements at the beginning and a leader at the start, I'd
>> argue it has a better chance than average to prevent people from riding
>> disrespectfully there!
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>
>

John Wilger

Great response to all of this, Devin. :slow-clap:

On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 5:43 PM Devin Bailly via OBRA
wrote:

> Wow! Thanks for the input everyone. As the organizer of the Giro PDX,
> your opinions about riding through the cemetery are valued and appreciated.
> Thanks also for the compliments and endorsements of the route!
>
> Ironically, I tried to keep my original announcement brief to be
> respectful about using OBRA resources for a non-OBRA event. I didn't
> realize the huge thread it would create! So now that it's rolling, I'll
> chime in.
>
> The last thing I want is to be considered the person responsible for
> tolling the death knell for cycling in Riverview Cemetery. Therefore, my
> default plan is to re-route the initial climb up Palatine Hill Road instead
> of Riverview. It's a nice climb on a public road. The downside is a
> riding a little longer on Hwy 43. But most of it is two lane so we can
> safely take the right lane en masse.
>
> My backup plan is to ride through the cemetery if and only if I get
> explicit permission from David Noble - director of Riverview for whom I
> have already left a voice mail expressing my knowledge of the tenuous
> status of cycling there and my respect for the property and his wishes. I
> look forward to a conversation with him in which I represent the cycling
> community professionally and respectfully, without any entitlement.
>
> If everything was equal, I think the route is better going through the
> cemetery. However, everything is NOT equal since one option 1 uses only
> public roads and option 2 includes private property. When plotting the
> route last year I definitely ensured all the cut-throughs I use are public
> rights of way and the three city parks we go through on single track trails
> legitimately allow bicycles.
>
> Regardless of how this all shakes out, it promises to be a great day of
> riding. And this year I am offering a 200% guarantee - double your money
> back if the temperature is higher than today's. I hope you can make it.
> The Madonna del Ghisallo anticipates your homage at the top of Cook's Butte.
>
> New default route eliminates cemetery -
> https://ridewithgps.com/routes/23818256
> Backup route contingent on explicit permission -
> https://ridewithgps.com/ambassador_routes/968-giro-pdx-le-foglie-morte-di-sud-portland
> Event page -
> https://www.facebook.com/events/301659963640122/?active_tab=about
>
> Stay cool.
> Devin Bailly
>
> On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 4:33 PM, Mike Murray via OBRA
> wrote:
>
>> Nope, you’ve got that wrong. What people are saying is that they would
>> like
>> to preserve the ability to have individuals and small groups use that
>> route
>> and not have that tenuously provided position mucked up by having a crowd
>> ride through. My guess is that a large group of even impeccably behaving
>> cyclists will cause "issues" with the owner of the property. At the very
>> least the organizer of the ride should get express permission owners.
>> Ideally that would have been done before going public with plans.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of DC via OBRA
>> Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2017 14:33
>> To: obra@list.obra.org
>> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Giro PDX 8/27
>>
>> Good, it's sounds like we all agree on a plan: in order to not risk losing
>> access to Riverview, let's not use Riverview. That route is just so
>> fantastic, we would be devastated if we couldn't ride it anymore, so let's
>> not ride it anymore! I think that makes perfect sense. Flawless logic.
>>
>> Obviously sarcasm there, but in truth what some of you are saying is you
>> want to ride it, yet you don't want others to. Sorry, either it's open to
>> everyone, or open to no one (regardless on their brand of clothing). It's
>> not fair to assume that there'll be jerks who ruin it for everyone on this
>> ride. As I said from the beginning, I don't doubt the organizer will make
>> a
>> point at the start of the ride to say: "please ride slowly and
>> respectfully
>> through the cemetery." All you needed to do from the beginning was ask the
>> organizer to do that, instead of implying those who do the Giro are more
>> disrespectful riders than the rest. After all, because it is an organized
>> ride, with announcements at the beginning and a leader at the start, I'd
>> argue it has a better chance than average to prevent people from riding
>> disrespectfully there!
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
--
John Wilger | +1 (971) 678-0999 | http://johnwilger.com

Devin Bailly

Wow! Thanks for the input everyone. As the organizer of the Giro PDX,
your opinions about riding through the cemetery are valued and appreciated.
Thanks also for the compliments and endorsements of the route!

Ironically, I tried to keep my original announcement brief to be respectful
about using OBRA resources for a non-OBRA event. I didn't realize the huge
thread it would create! So now that it's rolling, I'll chime in.

The last thing I want is to be considered the person responsible for
tolling the death knell for cycling in Riverview Cemetery. Therefore, my
default plan is to re-route the initial climb up Palatine Hill Road instead
of Riverview. It's a nice climb on a public road. The downside is a
riding a little longer on Hwy 43. But most of it is two lane so we can
safely take the right lane en masse.

My backup plan is to ride through the cemetery if and only if I get
explicit permission from David Noble - director of Riverview for whom I
have already left a voice mail expressing my knowledge of the tenuous
status of cycling there and my respect for the property and his wishes. I
look forward to a conversation with him in which I represent the cycling
community professionally and respectfully, without any entitlement.

If everything was equal, I think the route is better going through the
cemetery. However, everything is NOT equal since one option 1 uses only
public roads and option 2 includes private property. When plotting the
route last year I definitely ensured all the cut-throughs I use are public
rights of way and the three city parks we go through on single track trails
legitimately allow bicycles.

Regardless of how this all shakes out, it promises to be a great day of
riding. And this year I am offering a 200% guarantee - double your money
back if the temperature is higher than today's. I hope you can make it.
The Madonna del Ghisallo anticipates your homage at the top of Cook's Butte.

New default route eliminates cemetery -
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/23818256
Backup route contingent on explicit permission -
https://ridewithgps.com/ambassador_routes/968-giro-pdx-le-foglie-morte-di-sud-portland
Event page -
https://www.facebook.com/events/301659963640122/?active_tab=about

Stay cool.
Devin Bailly

On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 4:33 PM, Mike Murray via OBRA
wrote:

> Nope, you’ve got that wrong. What people are saying is that they would like
> to preserve the ability to have individuals and small groups use that route
> and not have that tenuously provided position mucked up by having a crowd
> ride through. My guess is that a large group of even impeccably behaving
> cyclists will cause "issues" with the owner of the property. At the very
> least the organizer of the ride should get express permission owners.
> Ideally that would have been done before going public with plans.
>
> Mike
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of DC via OBRA
> Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2017 14:33
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Giro PDX 8/27
>
> Good, it's sounds like we all agree on a plan: in order to not risk losing
> access to Riverview, let's not use Riverview. That route is just so
> fantastic, we would be devastated if we couldn't ride it anymore, so let's
> not ride it anymore! I think that makes perfect sense. Flawless logic.
>
> Obviously sarcasm there, but in truth what some of you are saying is you
> want to ride it, yet you don't want others to. Sorry, either it's open to
> everyone, or open to no one (regardless on their brand of clothing). It's
> not fair to assume that there'll be jerks who ruin it for everyone on this
> ride. As I said from the beginning, I don't doubt the organizer will make a
> point at the start of the ride to say: "please ride slowly and respectfully
> through the cemetery." All you needed to do from the beginning was ask the
> organizer to do that, instead of implying those who do the Giro are more
> disrespectful riders than the rest. After all, because it is an organized
> ride, with announcements at the beginning and a leader at the start, I'd
> argue it has a better chance than average to prevent people from riding
> disrespectfully there!
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Mike Murray

Nope, you���ve got that wrong. What people are saying is that they would like
to preserve the ability to have individuals and small groups use that route
and not have that tenuously provided position mucked up by having a crowd
ride through. My guess is that a large group of even impeccably behaving
cyclists will cause "issues" with the owner of the property. At the very
least the organizer of the ride should get express permission owners.
Ideally that would have been done before going public with plans.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of DC via OBRA
Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2017 14:33
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Giro PDX 8/27

Good, it's sounds like we all agree on a plan: in order to not risk losing
access to Riverview, let's not use Riverview. That route is just so
fantastic, we would be devastated if we couldn't ride it anymore, so let's
not ride it anymore! I think that makes perfect sense. Flawless logic.

Obviously sarcasm there, but in truth what some of you are saying is you
want to ride it, yet you don't want others to. Sorry, either it's open to
everyone, or open to no one (regardless on their brand of clothing). It's
not fair to assume that there'll be jerks who ruin it for everyone on this
ride. As I said from the beginning, I don't doubt the organizer will make a
point at the start of the ride to say: "please ride slowly and respectfully
through the cemetery." All you needed to do from the beginning was ask the
organizer to do that, instead of implying those who do the Giro are more
disrespectful riders than the rest. After all, because it is an organized
ride, with announcements at the beginning and a leader at the start, I'd
argue it has a better chance than average to prevent people from riding
disrespectfully there!
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Michael

Thanks Dan.  That seems extremely clear that large, organized group rides are NOT okay with the property owners.

Michael Y.

From: Daniel Porter via OBRA
To: DC
Cc: obra
Sent: Thursday, August 3, 2017 3:56 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Giro PDX 8/27

The simple solution is for the organizer of this event to call River view Cemetery and ask if they mind having a group of riders go through on Sunday at approximately whatever time it plans to go through.  That way Riverview (who owns the land) can provide their feedback (and could make sure an active funeral was not occurring).   If the organizer is too scared to call, then this portion of the route should not be included.  This is as simple as being a good neighbor.  
>From the Bikeportland article (excerpt from notes that David Noble (executive director of RV) provided as ideas to alleviate the bike concerns of the RV board.
2. Contact the many bicycle clubs and racing groups in the area and let them know that River View Cemetery is off limits for training. These groups cause our biggest number of complaints and they need to train elsewhere. It’s one thing to allow commuters and recreational riders to pass through enroute to somewhere else, but having groups of bikes going up and down the route, over and over, simply isn’t OK with us.3. Increase rider awareness of the fact that this is private property and that passing through is a privilege and not a right. This is particularly important with so many new riders discovering this route due to the new Sellwood Bridge. This would be accomplished by creating a brochure on the topic, which would be distributed to riders who attend or work at Lewis & Clark and by having multiple times during the heaviest riding season (April to October) where BTA volunteers would come to the gates and distribute the brochures to riders.Here is the whole article: https://bikeportland.org/2017/05/19/closure-of-river-view-cemetery-bike-access-looms-as-disrepectful-riding-continues-228385

On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 2:33 PM, DC via OBRA wrote:

Good, it's sounds like we all agree on a plan: in order to not risk losing access to Riverview, let's not use Riverview. That route is just so fantastic, we would be devastated if we couldn't ride it anymore, so let's not ride it anymore! I think that makes perfect sense. Flawless logic.

Obviously sarcasm there, but in truth what some of you are saying is you want to ride it, yet you don't want others to. Sorry, either it's open to everyone, or open to no one (regardless on their brand of clothing). It's not fair to assume that there'll be jerks who ruin it for everyone on this ride. As I said from the beginning, I don't doubt the organizer will make a point at the start of the ride to say: "please ride slowly and respectfully through the cemetery." All you needed to do from the beginning was ask the organizer to do that, instead of implying those who do the Giro are more disrespectful riders than the rest. After all, because it is an organized ride, with announcements at the beginning and a leader at the start, I'd argue it has a better chance than average to prevent people from riding disrespectfully there!
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Jon Myers

This is a classic case of ���just because you can does not mean you should���. Access to the Cemetery is a very hot topic and the management recently banned cyclist from using it during the 4th of July weekend because of complaints from relatives of people buried on the property and in hopes of reducing the conflicts with people paying tribute to people interned there. They have contemplated closing it to cyclists permanently multiple times. Many people living in SW Portland use this route as one of the very few safe bicycle commute routes to and from the Sellwood Bridge. The Cemetery is particularly sensitive about fast riders using the cemetery for training. Every group ride I���ve ever done tends to devolve into a contest of speed at times. As a cyclist and SW Portland resident I would implore the organizers to delete this part of the ride. If that does not work I hope that any cyclist that does not want to contribute to the rising tensions around access to the cemetery skip the ride or this part of the ride.

Daniel Porter

The simple solution is for the organizer of this event to call River view
Cemetery and ask if they mind having a group of riders go through on Sunday
at approximately whatever time it plans to go through. That way Riverview
(who owns the land) can provide their feedback (and could make sure an
active funeral was not occurring). If the organizer is too scared to
call, then this portion of the route should not be included. This is as
simple as being a good neighbor.

>From the Bikeportland article (excerpt from notes that David Noble
(executive director of RV) provided as ideas to alleviate the bike concerns
of the RV board.

2. Contact the many bicycle clubs and racing groups in the area and let
them know that *River View Cemetery is off limits for training*. These
groups cause our biggest number of complaints and they need to train
elsewhere. It’s one thing to allow commuters and recreational riders to
pass through enroute to somewhere else, but *having groups of bikes going
up and down the route, over and over, simply isn’t OK with us*.

3. *Increase rider awareness of the fact that this is private property and
that passing through is a privilege and not a right*. This is particularly
important with so many new riders discovering this route due to the new
Sellwood Bridge. This would be accomplished by creating a brochure on the
topic, which would be distributed to riders who attend or work at Lewis &
Clark and by having multiple times during the heaviest riding season (April
to October) where BTA volunteers would come to the gates and distribute the
brochures to riders.

Here is the whole article:

https://bikeportland.org/2017/05/19/closure-of-river-view-cemetery-bike-access-looms-as-disrepectful-riding-continues-228385

On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 2:33 PM, DC via OBRA wrote:

> Good, it's sounds like we all agree on a plan: in order to not risk losing
> access to Riverview, let's not use Riverview. That route is just so
> fantastic, we would be devastated if we couldn't ride it anymore, so let's
> not ride it anymore! I think that makes perfect sense. Flawless logic.
>
> Obviously sarcasm there, but in truth what some of you are saying is you
> want to ride it, yet you don't want others to. Sorry, either it's open to
> everyone, or open to no one (regardless on their brand of clothing). It's
> not fair to assume that there'll be jerks who ruin it for everyone on this
> ride. As I said from the beginning, I don't doubt the organizer will make a
> point at the start of the ride to say: "please ride slowly and respectfully
> through the cemetery." All you needed to do from the beginning was ask the
> organizer to do that, instead of implying those who do the Giro are more
> disrespectful riders than the rest. After all, because it is an organized
> ride, with announcements at the beginning and a leader at the start, I'd
> argue it has a better chance than average to prevent people from riding
> disrespectfully there!
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Mike Murray

The catch is that the cemetery is private property where bikes are currently
only tenuously allowed. It won't take much for the owners to close the
property to bikes. Making this route part of an organized ride, even a
casually organized one, strains that largesse, especially if there is not
express permission from the owners. DC's examples are reductio ad absurdum.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: OBRA [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of DC via OBRA
Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2017 10:39
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Giro PDX 8/27

You know I was thinking: we don't want people in Lake Oswego to get upset
cause there's more than 4 of us riding. Let's not ride through Lake Oswego.
Oh gosh, and some of the roads on the route don't have bike lanes, and we
don't want to annoy any drivers, so let's cut out those roads. And hills are
really hard, so could those please be cut out too? Oh and one time I saw a
cyclist accidentally drop his water bottle. We can't risk that. So let's say
no water allowed on the ride. Let's just change this to a 3-mile
out-and-back on the Springwater. Then everybody wins, right?!?
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DC

Good, it's sounds like we all agree on a plan: in order to not risk losing access to Riverview, let's not use Riverview. That route is just so fantastic, we would be devastated if we couldn't ride it anymore, so let's not ride it anymore! I think that makes perfect sense. Flawless logic.

Obviously sarcasm there, but in truth what some of you are saying is you want to ride it, yet you don't want others to. Sorry, either it's open to everyone, or open to no one (regardless on their brand of clothing). It's not fair to assume that there'll be jerks who ruin it for everyone on this ride. As I said from the beginning, I don't doubt the organizer will make a point at the start of the ride to say: "please ride slowly and respectfully through the cemetery." All you needed to do from the beginning was ask the organizer to do that, instead of implying those who do the Giro are more disrespectful riders than the rest. After all, because it is an organized ride, with announcements at the beginning and a leader at the start, I'd argue it has a better chance than average to prevent people from riding disrespectfully there!

Mike Rosenfeld

Well opinions have been stated. Some more logical than others and we even got a math lesson out it.

If we lose access to this great (private) resource because a few roadies on this ride (I still think it's a great ride) in their $750 Rapha kits cut off a funeral procession then this is one is on you DC.

Sorry man. I appreciate you putting this all together but it will be on you.

Granted it could happen any given day considering how I have seen some jackasses ride through the cemetery.

I hope to be able to do the ride but I will be skipping the cemetery if I do.

Go ahead and flame away at me folks I could care less as I am done with this topic.

Mike

Sent from my non windows phone

> On Aug 3, 2017, at 12:37 PM, John Wilger via OBRA wrote:
>
> Nah, not missing the point. I don't have a strong opinion one way or another about whether the ride should go through the cemetery. I was just pointing out your flawed logic. (Yep, I'm a real hit at parties.) :-)
>
>> On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 11:56 AM, DC via OBRA wrote:
>> I think you guys are missing your own point: it wasn't about public vs. private. I'm hearing "no group should ride a road open to cyclists because what if someone rides like a jerk." Public or private, all the roads on the route are fair game to cyclists. Some are open because they're public streets, others are open because the private owner allows bikes in during the day. "We better not do the ride in case a jerk shows up" is a horrible approach. All OBRA races would be cancelled, if that were the Association's attitude! In fact, I have some close friends I couldn't ride with if that were the case ;)
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> --
> John Wilger | +1 (971) 678-0999 | http://johnwilger.com
> _______________________________________________
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> obra@list.obra.org
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> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

John Wilger

Nah, not missing the point. I don't have a strong opinion one way or
another about whether the ride should go through the cemetery. I was just
pointing out your flawed logic. (Yep, I'm a real hit at parties.) :-)

On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 11:56 AM, DC via OBRA wrote:

> I think you guys are missing your own point: it wasn't about public vs.
> private. I'm hearing "no group should ride a road open to cyclists because
> what if someone rides like a jerk." Public or private, all the roads on the
> route are fair game to cyclists. Some are open because they're public
> streets, others are open because the private owner allows bikes in during
> the day. "We better not do the ride in case a jerk shows up" is a horrible
> approach. All OBRA races would be cancelled, if that were the Association's
> attitude! In fact, I have some close friends I couldn't ride with if that
> were the case ;)
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John Prada

Very good point. The cemetery has considered closing this road to cyclists several times in the recent past. It���s one thing to have individual commuters, or small groups passing through. A complete different animal when faced with a large pack of kitted up cyclists. It���s a private road. It���s a cemetery. It���s not an ideal location for this type of event.

> On Aug 3, 2017, at 11:26 AM, Rick Johnson via OBRA wrote:
>
> You present a Red Herring in your post DC.
>
> The subject road in this debate is PRIVATE property. As such it way be closed to any use at the exclusive discretion of the property owner for any reason.
>
> Cyclists are guests and the point is valid that any bad behavior jeopardizes access for all cyclists.
>
>
> On 8/3/2017 10:38 AM, DC via OBRA wrote:
>> You know I was thinking: we don't want people in Lake Oswego to get upset cause there's more than 4 of us riding. Let's not ride through Lake Oswego. Oh gosh, and some of the roads on the route don't have bike lanes, and we don't want to annoy any drivers, so let's cut out those roads. And hills are really hard, so could those please be cut out too? Oh and one time I saw a cyclist accidentally drop his water bottle. We can't risk that. So let's say no water allowed on the ride. Let's just change this to a 3-mile out-and-back on the Springwater. Then everybody wins, right?!?
>> _______________________________________________
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>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
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>
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Rick Johnson

Having been excluded from many areas over my lifetime - for activities
related to cycling or otherwise - I take nothing for granted.

None of us are ever entitled to ride wherever/whenever we want and
private property is where that privilege is the most tenuous.

"You don't know what you got 'til it's gone" applies here.

Rick Johnson
Bend, Oregon

On 8/3/2017 11:56 AM, DC via OBRA wrote:
> I think you guys are missing your own point: it wasn't about public vs. private. I'm hearing "no group should ride a road open to cyclists because what if someone rides like a jerk." Public or private, all the roads on the route are fair game to cyclists. Some are open because they're public streets, others are open because the private owner allows bikes in during the day. "We better not do the ride in case a jerk shows up" is a horrible approach. All OBRA races would be cancelled, if that were the Association's attitude! In fact, I have some close friends I couldn't ride with if that were the case ;)
> _______________________________________________
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Rick Johnson

Michael brings up another aspect to consider - one of respect. I
don't suppose the organizer of this ride has checked to see if
there is any funerals scheduled for the time riders would be
passing through?

Can you imagine how the people gathered to bury a loved one might
react to a large number of cyclists disrupting their service at
such an emotional time?

Rick Johnson

Bend, Oregon

Agreed��Rick.��
Also it's not just "bad behavior".�� For many people a cemetery
touches��on family, religion, death, posterity, etc.�� As such
it is a very sensitive place.�� Having a large group of roadies
rolling through on a Sunday on a group ride doesn't sound well
thought through.

Michael
Y.

---

From:
Rick Johnson via OBRA <obra@list.obra.org>

To: DC
<d_cushman@yahoo.com>; obra@list.obra.org

Sent:
Thursday, August 3, 2017 12:01 PM

Subject: Re:
[OBRA Chat] Giro PDX 8/27

You
present a Red Herring in your post DC.



The subject road in this debate is PRIVATE property.
As such it way be

closed to any use at the exclusive discretion of the
property owner for

any reason.



Cyclists are guests and the point is valid that any
bad behavior

jeopardizes access for all cyclists.





On 8/3/2017 10:38 AM, DC via OBRA wrote:

> You know I was thinking: we don't want people in
Lake Oswego to get upset cause there's more than 4 of
us riding. Let's not ride through Lake Oswego. Oh
gosh, and some of the roads on the route don't have
bike lanes, and we don't want to annoy any drivers, so
let's cut out those roads. And hills are really hard,
so could those please be cut out too? Oh and one time
I saw a cyclist accidentally drop his water bottle. We
can't risk that. So let's say no water allowed on the
ride. Let's just change this to a 3-mile out-and-back
on the Springwater. Then everybody wins, right?!?

> _______________________________________________

> OBRA mailing list

> obra@list.obra.org

> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra

> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Michael

Agreed Rick.  Also it's not just "bad behavior".  For many people a cemetery touches on family, religion, death, posterity, etc.  As such it is a very sensitive place.  Having a large group of roadies rolling through on a Sunday on a group ride doesn't sound well thought through.

Michael Y.

From: Rick Johnson via OBRA
To: DC ; obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Thursday, August 3, 2017 12:01 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Giro PDX 8/27

You present a Red Herring in your post DC.

The subject road in this debate is PRIVATE property. As such it way be
closed to any use at the exclusive discretion of the property owner for
any reason.

Cyclists are guests and the point is valid that any bad behavior
jeopardizes access for all cyclists.

On 8/3/2017 10:38 AM, DC via OBRA wrote:
> You know I was thinking: we don't want people in Lake Oswego to get upset cause there's more than 4 of us riding. Let's not ride through Lake Oswego. Oh gosh, and some of the roads on the route don't have bike lanes, and we don't want to annoy any drivers, so let's cut out those roads. And hills are really hard, so could those please be cut out too? Oh and one time I saw a cyclist accidentally drop his water bottle. We can't risk that. So let's say no water allowed on the ride. Let's just change this to a 3-mile out-and-back on the Springwater. Then everybody wins, right?!?
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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Michael

That is hardly analogous to riding through a cemetery.  -1
 Michael Y.

From: DC via OBRA
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Thursday, August 3, 2017 11:09 AM
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Giro PDX 8/27

You know I was thinking: we don't want people in Lake Oswego to get upset cause there's more than 4 of us riding. Let's not ride through Lake Oswego. Oh gosh, and some of the roads on the route don't have bike lanes, and we don't want to annoy any drivers, so let's cut out those roads. And hills are really hard, so could those please be cut out too? Oh and one time I saw a cyclist accidentally drop his water bottle. We can't risk that. So let's say no water allowed on the ride. Let's just change this to a 3-mile out-and-back on the Springwater. Then everybody wins, right?!?
_______________________________________________
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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

DC

I think you guys are missing your own point: it wasn't about public vs. private. I'm hearing "no group should ride a road open to cyclists because what if someone rides like a jerk." Public or private, all the roads on the route are fair game to cyclists. Some are open because they're public streets, others are open because the private owner allows bikes in during the day. "We better not do the ride in case a jerk shows up" is a horrible approach. All OBRA races would be cancelled, if that were the Association's attitude! In fact, I have some close friends I couldn't ride with if that were the case ;)

Jeff Baertsch

You're comparing the public roads of the City of Lake Oswego to the private
roads of a non-profit (read: not publicly owned) cemetery.

Nice try at an analogy though.

The cemetery is a safe, important link from the SW hills that people use to
get to work and school, which is a lot bigger than some recreational ride
us lycra warriors want to go on. It's also private property that bike
commuters tenuously have access to.

On 3 August 2017 at 10:38, DC via OBRA wrote:

> You know I was thinking: we don't want people in Lake Oswego to get upset
> cause there's more than 4 of us riding. Let's not ride through Lake Oswego.
> Oh gosh, and some of the roads on the route don't have bike lanes, and we
> don't want to annoy any drivers, so let's cut out those roads. And hills
> are really hard, so could those please be cut out too? Oh and one time I
> saw a cyclist accidentally drop his water bottle. We can't risk that. So
> let's say no water allowed on the ride. Let's just change this to a 3-mile
> out-and-back on the Springwater. Then everybody wins, right?!?
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Rick Johnson

You present a Red Herring in your post DC.

The subject road in this debate is PRIVATE property. As such it way be
closed to any use at the exclusive discretion of the property owner for
any reason.

Cyclists are guests and the point is valid that any bad behavior
jeopardizes access for all cyclists.

On 8/3/2017 10:38 AM, DC via OBRA wrote:
> You know I was thinking: we don't want people in Lake Oswego to get upset cause there's more than 4 of us riding. Let's not ride through Lake Oswego. Oh gosh, and some of the roads on the route don't have bike lanes, and we don't want to annoy any drivers, so let's cut out those roads. And hills are really hard, so could those please be cut out too? Oh and one time I saw a cyclist accidentally drop his water bottle. We can't risk that. So let's say no water allowed on the ride. Let's just change this to a 3-mile out-and-back on the Springwater. Then everybody wins, right?!?
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

John Wilger

Probably a better comparison would be: You know, I was thinking: I don't
want DC to get upset because there's more than 4 of us riding our bikes
through their yard. Let's not ride our bikes through DC's yard.

On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 10:38 AM, DC via OBRA wrote:

> You know I was thinking: we don't want people in Lake Oswego to get upset
> cause there's more than 4 of us riding. Let's not ride through Lake Oswego.
> Oh gosh, and some of the roads on the route don't have bike lanes, and we
> don't want to annoy any drivers, so let's cut out those roads. And hills
> are really hard, so could those please be cut out too? Oh and one time I
> saw a cyclist accidentally drop his water bottle. We can't risk that. So
> let's say no water allowed on the ride. Let's just change this to a 3-mile
> out-and-back on the Springwater. Then everybody wins, right?!?
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

--
John Wilger | +1 (971) 678-0999 | http://johnwilger.com

DC

You know I was thinking: we don't want people in Lake Oswego to get upset cause there's more than 4 of us riding. Let's not ride through Lake Oswego. Oh gosh, and some of the roads on the route don't have bike lanes, and we don't want to annoy any drivers, so let's cut out those roads. And hills are really hard, so could those please be cut out too? Oh and one time I saw a cyclist accidentally drop his water bottle. We can't risk that. So let's say no water allowed on the ride. Let's just change this to a 3-mile out-and-back on the Springwater. Then everybody wins, right?!?

Drew Coleman

What Mike said. The cemetery is for commuter access not for large group rides. It also happens to be a resting place for the dead ...

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 3, 2017, at 10:08 AM, Mike Rosenfeld via OBRA > wrote:

You get more than a couple of people together on bikes and intelligence levels drop, and best wishes are left in the dust.

I really think you need to take that segment off the table.

Thank you for organizing the ride it is much appreciated, however having a large amount of people going through the cemetery on bikes could strain the relationship between the cycling community and the cemetery. Especially on a Sunday.

On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 9:13 AM, DC via OBRA > wrote:
The Giro PDX is NOT a race. If you haven't done the ride before, I recommend it highly! It's a great route, and you'd find that it's a lot of fun. It is not timed, and there should not be any people "racing" through the cemetery. I'm sure the organizer will agree we don't want people going too fast through there, so he/she will probably announce to go slow in that section. But the cemetery is open to cyclists specifically because it's a great route for cyclists!! Please read the bikeportland article referenced earlier. The cemetery staff like bikes being able to ride through the cemetery, just not race through. (Did I mention this isn't a race?!?)

So come do the ride!! Be respectful of those who chose the cemetery as their final resting place, but enjoy it and all the great sections on the Giro!
_______________________________________________
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C. Brannen

On any given day, how many cyclists commute or navigate through this Cemetery section? 
My educated and rather well-informed guess is that it is a number which is greater than the sum of the total amount of individuals who will seek to participate in this upcoming fun riding challenge whereby local enthusiasts shall endeavor to enjoy some time pedaling around public bike routes and other commonly used roadways, paths, etc.
The mathematical equation for this statistic is E=f*u(squared).
For those who are at arms, please relax. 
Chris Brannen  
Ride. Love. Repeat. 

On Thursday, August 3, 2017, 9:36:04 AM PDT, DC via OBRA wrote:

The Giro PDX is NOT a race. If you haven't done the ride before, I recommend it highly! It's a great route, and you'd find that it's a lot of fun. It is not timed, and there should not be any people "racing" through the cemetery. I'm sure the organizer will agree we don't want people going too fast through there, so he/she will probably announce to go slow in that section. But the cemetery is open to cyclists specifically because it's a great route for cyclists!! Please read the bikeportland article referenced earlier. The cemetery staff like bikes being able to ride through the cemetery, just not race through. (Did I mention this isn't a race?!?)

So come do the ride!! Be respectful of those who chose the cemetery as their final resting place, but enjoy it and all the great sections on the Giro!
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Mike Rosenfeld

Just like people should only use porta potties at the races. We all want
things to succeed but it only takes one jacka$$ to ruin it for everyone.
Having the cemetery closed to bikes could ruin the commute for hundreds
(maybe more) of people everyday.

why risk it for an unofficial ride.

The route without the cemetery is great...really an awesome route.

On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 9:21 AM, My Computer via OBRA
wrote:

> Shouldn't the riders just abide by rules? May be easier said than done,
> but as long as folks are respectful, no harm...
>
> Why not contact owners / board and keep them in loop, communicate with
> them.
>
> On Aug 3, 2017 9:04 AM, "craig austin via OBRA"
> wrote:
>
>> Absolutely agree. This segment needs to be off your menu for that day or
>> you may ruin it for everyone.
>>
>> https://bikeportland.org/2017/05/19/closure-of-river-view-ce
>> metery-bike-access-looms-as-disrepectful-riding-continues-228385
>>
>> Craig
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 10:54 PM, Michael via OBRA
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Not cool racing through Riverside Cemetery! They’re going to get pissed
>>> off and close the access to cyclists. Just saying.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Devin Bailly via OBRA
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 2, 2017 8:22 PM
>>> *To:* OBRA Chat
>>> *Subject:* [OBRA Chat] Giro PDX 8/27
>>>
>>> Please come ride the second annual Giro PDX on 8/27.
>>> This is not an OBRA event. (But it is a rad event)
>>> https://www.facebook.com/events/301659963640122
>>> https://ridewithgps.com/events/24101-giro-pdx-le-foglie-mort
>>> e-di-sud-portland
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
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> obra@list.obra.org
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> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

Mike Rosenfeld

You get more than a couple of people together on bikes and intelligence
levels drop, and best wishes are left in the dust.

I really think you need to take that segment off the table.

Thank you for organizing the ride it is much appreciated, however having a
large amount of people going through the cemetery on bikes could strain the
relationship between the cycling community and the cemetery. Especially on
a Sunday.

On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 9:13 AM, DC via OBRA wrote:

> The Giro PDX is NOT a race. If you haven't done the ride before, I
> recommend it highly! It's a great route, and you'd find that it's a lot of
> fun. It is not timed, and there should not be any people "racing" through
> the cemetery. I'm sure the organizer will agree we don't want people going
> too fast through there, so he/she will probably announce to go slow in that
> section. But the cemetery is open to cyclists specifically because it's a
> great route for cyclists!! Please read the bikeportland article referenced
> earlier. The cemetery staff like bikes being able to ride through the
> cemetery, just not race through. (Did I mention this isn't a race?!?)
>
> So come do the ride!! Be respectful of those who chose the cemetery as
> their final resting place, but enjoy it and all the great sections on the
> Giro!
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

My Computer

Shouldn't the riders just abide by rules? May be easier said than done,
but as long as folks are respectful, no harm...

Why not contact owners / board and keep them in loop, communicate with them.

On Aug 3, 2017 9:04 AM, "craig austin via OBRA" wrote:

> Absolutely agree. This segment needs to be off your menu for that day or
> you may ruin it for everyone.
>
> https://bikeportland.org/2017/05/19/closure-of-river-view-
> cemetery-bike-access-looms-as-disrepectful-riding-continues-228385
>
> Craig
>
> On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 10:54 PM, Michael via OBRA
> wrote:
>
>> Not cool racing through Riverside Cemetery! They’re going to get pissed
>> off and close the access to cyclists. Just saying.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Devin Bailly via OBRA
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 2, 2017 8:22 PM
>> *To:* OBRA Chat
>> *Subject:* [OBRA Chat] Giro PDX 8/27
>>
>> Please come ride the second annual Giro PDX on 8/27.
>> This is not an OBRA event. (But it is a rad event)
>> https://www.facebook.com/events/301659963640122
>> https://ridewithgps.com/events/24101-giro-pdx-le-foglie-
>> morte-di-sud-portland
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

DC

The Giro PDX is NOT a race. If you haven't done the ride before, I recommend it highly! It's a great route, and you'd find that it's a lot of fun. It is not timed, and there should not be any people "racing" through the cemetery. I'm sure the organizer will agree we don't want people going too fast through there, so he/she will probably announce to go slow in that section. But the cemetery is open to cyclists specifically because it's a great route for cyclists!! Please read the bikeportland article referenced earlier. The cemetery staff like bikes being able to ride through the cemetery, just not race through. (Did I mention this isn't a race?!?)

So come do the ride!! Be respectful of those who chose the cemetery as their final resting place, but enjoy it and all the great sections on the Giro!

craig austin

Absolutely agree. This segment needs to be off your menu for that day or
you may ruin it for everyone.

https://bikeportland.org/2017/05/19/closure-of-river-view-cemetery-bike-access-looms-as-disrepectful-riding-continues-228385

Craig

On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 10:54 PM, Michael via OBRA
wrote:

> Not cool racing through Riverside Cemetery! They’re going to get pissed
> off and close the access to cyclists. Just saying.
>
>
>
> *From:* Devin Bailly via OBRA
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 2, 2017 8:22 PM
> *To:* OBRA Chat
> *Subject:* [OBRA Chat] Giro PDX 8/27
>
> Please come ride the second annual Giro PDX on 8/27.
> This is not an OBRA event. (But it is a rad event)
> https://www.facebook.com/events/301659963640122
> https://ridewithgps.com/events/24101-giro-pdx-le-
> foglie-morte-di-sud-portland
>
>
> ------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

Michael

Not cool racing through Riverside Cemetery! They’re going to get pissed off and close the access to cyclists. Just saying.

From: Devin Bailly via OBRA
Sent: Wednesday, August 2, 2017 8:22 PM
To: OBRA Chat
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Giro PDX 8/27

Please come ride the second annual Giro PDX on 8/27.
This is not an OBRA event. (But it is a rad event)
https://www.facebook.com/events/301659963640122

https://ridewithgps.com/events/24101-giro-pdx-le-foglie-morte-di-sud-portland

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Devin Bailly

Please come ride the second annual Giro PDX on 8/27.
This is not an OBRA event. (But it is a rad event)
https://www.facebook.com/events/301659963640122
https://ridewithgps.com/events/24101-giro-pdx-le-foglie-morte-di-sud-portland