OBRA: OBRA Chat: Master Categories

Master Categories

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Oregon-@cs.com

2004-03-10

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The discussion continues - great. I have found points on both sides

interesting and compelling. Nevertheless, the issue has another dimension: marketing

or advocating the sport of bike racing. Let me tell you a quick story.

I have been riding a bike for just over two years. Best sport ever. Got

into racing a year ago. Now, my younger daughter (24) is into biking and

considering racing. Why? Because she has seen the enthusiasm and interest for the

sport from her Dad.

BUT - I have a racing age of 60 and am a Cat 4. I cannot keep up with the

younger Cat 4/5s (sorry, power and endurance decline and recovery time

increases with age) and I find it v-e-r-y challenging to stay with the Masters 45+

who, by and large, have lots more racing miles in their legs. Yup - I will race

with both. Yup, I will be OTB'd by both. And, the more I am OTB'd, my

enthusiasm is slightly dampened. I train hard and I don't want to just do the

"social" rides with, say, the Portland Wheelmen. But, my legs ain't young and my

base experience is limited.

So, I find myself wondering how many other guys - those who love to bike and

who are competitive - would consider racing if there were a Masters 4/5 where

the ground were a bit more even? And, I wonder what effect they may have on

others? Anything we do to make racing more attractive is goodness, in my view.

Nope - I don't expect to win or even finish in the top 10. But I would like

friends, family and neighbors to know that bike racing offers a point of

entry for everyone.

Peter LaPorte

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><HTML><FONT SIZE=2 PTSIZE=10 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">The discussion continues - great. I have found points on both sides interesting and compelling. Nevertheless, the issue has another dimension: marketing or advocating the sport of bike racing. Let me tell you a quick story.<BR>

<BR>

I have been riding a bike for just over two years. Best sport ever. Got into racing a year ago. Now, my younger daughter (24) is into biking and considering racing. Why? Because she has seen the enthusiasm and interest for the sport from her Dad.<BR>

<BR>

BUT - I have a racing age of 60 and am a Cat 4. I cannot keep up with the younger Cat 4/5s (sorry, power and endurance decline and recovery time increases with age) and I find it v-e-r-y challenging to stay with the Masters 45+ who, by and large, have lots more racing miles in their legs. Yup - I will race with both. Yup, I will be OTB'd by both. And, the more I am OTB'd, my enthusiasm is slightly dampened. I train hard and I don't want to just do the "social" rides with, say, the Portland Wheelmen. But, my legs ain't young and my base experience is limited. <BR>

<BR>

So, I find myself wondering how many other guys - those who love to bike and who are competitive - would consider racing if there were a Masters 4/5 where the ground were a bit more even? And, I wonder what effect they may have on others? Anything we do to make racing more attractive is goodness, in my view. Nope - I don't expect to win or even finish in the top 10. But I would like friends, family and neighbors to know that bike racing offers a point of entry for everyone.<BR>

<BR>

Peter LaPorte</FONT></HTML>

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Erik Long

2004-03-09

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You guys all need to take a step back and really look at road categories.

There are typically 8-12 divisions in any given regional race. That's more

than enough for every rider to find themselves a home.

Can't finish a race with the masters? Ride with the cat 3's. Can't hang

with the 3's? Go for training rides when you'd normally be on your ass

watching TV because I don't want to see more categories sprouting up like

mushrooms after a bad rain.

Do you know what happens when we start dividing age divisions by category?

Racers get categorized into 32 divisons of about 5-10 riders each. Sound

familiar? Look at an MTB race entry form sometime and tell me that it

hasn't gotten out of hand -- Over 30 divisions for an average of 150-200

riders. I understand that everbody wants to win and feel like they are

doing well, but 8th place in a field of 50 is a hell of a lot more

satisfying than 2nd in a group of 10.

Road categories are fine. Leave 'em alone.

Erik J. Long

-Bend

P.S. Come to think of it, whaddya say we model mountainbike divisions after

road racing?

----Original Message Follows----

From: JM Newman <newm-@hotmail.com>

Reply-To: newm-@hotmail.com

To: k-@kentj.com, tim-@comcast.net, ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Master Categories

Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 15:58:50 -0800

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To: k-@kentj.com, tim-@comcast.net, ob-@topica.com

From: JM Newman <newm-@hotmail.com>

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Master Categories

Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 15:58:50 -0800

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<html><div style=3D'background-color:'><DIV class=3DRTE>

<P>How about we compare junior and women racers then. Both race with c=

ombined fields of various categories. They don't seem to be crying abo=

ut playing fair at all compared to the masters men. <BR><BR></P></DIV>=

<DIV></DIV>>From: k j <K-@KENTJ.COM>

<DIV></DIV>>Reply-To: k-@kentj.com=20

<DIV></DIV>>To: tim-@comcast.net, ob-@topica.com=20

<DIV></DIV>>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Master Categories=20

<DIV></DIV>>Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 15:25:18 -0800=20

<DIV></DIV>>=20

<DIV></DIV>>All the comparisons to other sports seems to forget one impo=

rtant factor.  Cycling is the only one of the sports mentioned wh=

ere we actually race together in a pack and its strategy effects the outcom=

e.  Running and triathlons are very individual sports in comparis=

on with cycling except in time trials.  If you notice, there are =

many more categories for tt's.  So it is much more practical to h=

ave numerous categories in the other sports.  If we are using oth=

er sports as an example, we need to make sure that they are realistic compa=

risons.  With pack racing, not always the strongest rider wins.&n=

bsp; An out of shape savvy sprinter can create havic on a stongman in =

the right race, like piece of cake for example.  Where as the str=

ongest runner or triathlete usually prevails in the results in those indivi=

dual sports.=20

<DIV></DIV>>=20

<DIV></DIV>>-----Original Message-----=20

<DIV></DIV>>     From: "Tim"<TIM-@COMCAST.NET>=20

<DIV></DIV>>     Sent: 03/09/2004 2:54:35 PM=20

<DIV></DIV>>     To: "ob-@topica.com"<OB-@TOPICA.C=

OM>=20

<DIV></DIV>>     Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Master Cat=

egories=20

<DIV></DIV>>       Master CategoriesGeorge=

,=20

<DIV></DIV>>=20

<DIV></DIV>>     A faster racer like David Zimbleman=

maybe prevented from moving down,=20

<DIV></DIV>>     but you would would never be preven=

ted from moving up to race him. Unless=20

<DIV></DIV>>     masters is based on age not ability=

, and your happen to be under 45. That=20

<DIV></DIV>>     seems to be why having a Masters 1/=

2/3 and Master 4/5 is better than further=20

<DIV></DIV>>     dividing classes by age.=20

<DIV></DIV>>=20

<DIV></DIV>>     Master is in part based on age, but=

with the idea of being a more experienced=20

<DIV></DIV>>     and mature crowd. Younger racers ar=

e considered to be more higher risk takers=20

<DIV></DIV>>     and more hostile, that's why we don=

't let run for president or race masters.=20

<DIV></DIV>>=20

<DIV></DIV>>     I think Mike's real point is that w=

e are lucky to have classes to choose from. The lady=20

<DIV></DIV>>     racers often are mixed from ages 0-=

100, and they don't seem to complain much.=20

<DIV></DIV>>=20

<DIV></DIV>>     Tim Maloney=20

<DIV></DIV>>=20

<DIV></DIV>>=20

<DIV></DIV>>=20

<DIV></DIV>>[Message truncated. Tap Edit->Mark for Download to get re=

maining portion.]=20

<DIV></DIV>>=20

<DIV></DIV>>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.=20

<DIV></DIV>>To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org=20

<DIV></DIV>>To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com=20

<DIV></DIV>>=20

<DIV></DIV>>=20

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mike.m-@obra.org

2004-03-09

Just to add more fuel to the fire here is a note re: Masters and USCF

competition:

Hi everyone, we are still getting reports of elite riders sneaking

into masters races. Please have all of your organizers review rule

1H4, and generally all the rules of engagement.

The following are elite riders:

1) riders with racing ages between 23-29.

2) riders on a UCI trade team (road, track, or mountain bike)

3) riders who represent us in 2004 in an elite world cup,

international games, or world championships (all at the elite level).

Note that items 2 and 3 do not include an age. Thus a 35+ rider who is

on a trade team is an elite rider. A 35+ rider who is not on a trade

team but rode the world cup in Moscow is an elite rider.

Elite riders cannot ride masters races. The only exception is that

non-trade team riders who are over 30 but hold elite status due to

item 3 above may be allowed to ride masters if the organizer so

specified in the race announcement.

On the other hand, we allow masters to ride elite races. They should

be warned that riding an elite UCI event will mean they cannot ride a

UCI masters event for the rest of the year.

Mike Murray

mike.m-@obra.org

2004-03-09

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Master CategoriesI understand George's point but I think he is missing mine.

The race organizers get to separate the field in the way that they see fit.

Some races are purely age graded, some are purely ability graded, some are a

combination of both. All these ways are valid ways to separate fields. For

me, the most enjoyable experience comes when there is less ability disparity

in the field and the fields a separated in a manner to maximize

participation. Clearly that is not the way that everyone people feels. I

have never said that age is NOT an indicator of ability. Performance

clearly declines with age. That point is trivial. What I have said is that

it is a POOR indicator of ability. Some people's performance declines less

rapidly with age and then there is the issue of what their starting level

was in the first place. A field separated solely by age will generally have

a wide range of ability. For selected races, such as age graded

championships, it makes good sense to separate only by age. For weekly

races the goal of the event is different. Having faster riders in the field

inhibits participation by the much larger group of slower riders.

Interestingly this whole debate is mirrored in international competition.

Masters Worlds are not open to the fastest riders even if they meet the age

criteria.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----

From: Schreck, George [mailto:george.-@pacificorp.com]

Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 13:56 PM

To: 'ob-@topica.com'

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Master Categories

Sorry to continue this, but I just read Mike's e-mail, which thought was a

bit of sophistry on his part.

Mike, I read your blurb that parroted mine, and I think you missed the

point. Masters categories are age categories, not ability categories.

Ability categories are for the non-masters races. Every other sport has

masters categories based on age, and they do not sort within those

categories by ability. That is the point of a maters category, older

racers. If we took you thinking further, there would be no need for a

masters category and we should all race based on ability.

As for your point that age is not an indicator of ability, it is patently

incorrect. Everyone's performance declines as they get older. Even David

Auker is probably a bit slower than he was when he was 25 or 30.    The

point of masters racing is to group people by age and then let ability take

over. Frankly, it is difficult for me to race against someone David

Zimbleman (actually, my performance compared to his probably means we really

are not racing against each other), but I would think it ridiculous that he

would be prevented from racing against me because he is so much better. It

is racing and that is the point, he is better than me in the 45+ group.

        George Schreck

         Phone: (503) 813-7211

          Fax: (503) 813-7190

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

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<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=520440701-10032004>I

understand George's point but I think he is missing mine. The race

organizers get to separate the field in the way that they see fit. Some

races are purely age graded, some are purely ability graded, some are a

combination of both. All these ways are valid ways to separate

fields. For me, the most enjoyable experience comes when there is less

ability disparity in the field and the fields a separated in a manner to

maximize participation. Clearly that is not the way that

everyone people feels. I have never said that age is NOT an indicator

of ability. Performance clearly declines with age. That point is

trivial. What I have said is that it is a POOR indicator of ability.

Some people's performance declines less rapidly with age and then there is the

issue of what their starting level was in the first place. A field separated

solely by age will generally have a wide range of ability. For selected

races, such as age graded championships, it makes good sense to separate only by

age. For weekly races the goal of the event is different. Having

faster riders in the field inhibits participation by the much larger group of

slower riders. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN

class=520440701-10032004></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN

class=520440701-10032004>Interestingly this whole debate is mirrored in

international competition. Masters Worlds are not open to the fastest

riders even if they meet the age criteria.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>

<P><FONT size=2>Mike Murray </FONT></P>

<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma

size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Schreck, George

[mailto:george.-@pacificorp.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, March 09, 2004

13:56 PM<BR><B>To:</B> 'ob-@topica.com'<BR><B>Subject:</B> [OBRA Chat] Master

Categories<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>

<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>Sorry to continue this, but I just read Mike's

e-mail, which thought was a bit of sophistry on his part.</FONT> </P>

<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>Mike, I read your blurb that parroted mine, and I

think you missed the point. Masters categories are age categories, not

ability categories. Ability categories are for the non-masters races.

Every other sport has masters categories based on age, and they do not sort

within those categories by ability. That is the point of a maters

category, older racers. If we took you thinking further, there would be no

need for a masters category and we should all race based on ability.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>As for your point that age is not an indicator of

ability, it is patently incorrect. Everyone's performance declines as they

get older. Even David Auker is probably a bit slower than he was when he

was 25 or 30.    The point of masters racing is to group people

by age and then let ability take over. Frankly, it is difficult for me to

race against someone David Zimbleman (actually, my performance compared to his

probably means we really are not racing against each other), but I would think

it ridiculous that he would be prevented from racing against me because he is so

much better. It is racing and that is the point, he is better than me in

the 45+ group.</FONT></P>

<P><B><I><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" color=#800000

size=5>        George

Schreck</FONT></I></B><I></I> <BR><B><I><FONT face="Bookman Old Style"

color=#800000

size=4>         Phone: (503)

813-7211</FONT></I></B><I></I> <BR><B><I><FONT face="Bookman Old Style"

color=#800000 size=4>          Fax:

(503) 813-7190</FONT></I></B><I></I> <BR><FONT face=Arial> </FONT> </P><PRE>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com</PRE>

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JM Newman

2004-03-09

<html><div style='background-color:'><DIV class=RTE>

<P>How about we compare junior and women racers then. Both race with combined fields of various categories. They don't seem to be crying about playing fair at all compared to the masters men. <BR><BR></P></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>From: k j <K-@KENTJ.COM>

<DIV></DIV>>Reply-To: k-@kentj.com

<DIV></DIV>>To: tim-@comcast.net, ob-@topica.com

<DIV></DIV>>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Master Categories

<DIV></DIV>>Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 15:25:18 -0800

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>All the comparisons to other sports seems to forget one important factor.  Cycling is the only one of the sports mentioned where we actually race together in a pack and its strategy effects the outcome.  Running and triathlons are very individual sports in comparison with cycling except in time trials.  If you notice, there are many more categories for tt's.  So it is much more practical to have numerous categories in the other sports.  If we are using other sports as an example, we need to make sure that they are realistic comparisons.  With pack racing, not always the strongest rider wins.  An out of shape savvy sprinter can create havic on a stongman in the right race, like piece of cake for example.  Where as the strongest runner or triathlete usually prevails in the results in those individual sports.

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>-----Original Message-----

<DIV></DIV>>     From: "Tim"<TIM-@COMCAST.NET>

<DIV></DIV>>     Sent: 03/09/2004 2:54:35 PM

<DIV></DIV>>     To: "ob-@topica.com"<OB-@TOPICA.COM>

<DIV></DIV>>     Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Master Categories

<DIV></DIV>>       Master CategoriesGeorge,

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>     A faster racer like David Zimbleman maybe prevented from moving down,

<DIV></DIV>>     but you would would never be prevented from moving up to race him. Unless

<DIV></DIV>>     masters is based on age not ability, and your happen to be under 45. That

<DIV></DIV>>     seems to be why having a Masters 1/2/3 and Master 4/5 is better than further

<DIV></DIV>>     dividing classes by age.

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>     Master is in part based on age, but with the idea of being a more experienced

<DIV></DIV>>     and mature crowd. Younger racers are considered to be more higher risk takers

<DIV></DIV>>     and more hostile, that's why we don't let run for president or race masters.

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>     I think Mike's real point is that we are lucky to have classes to choose from. The lady

<DIV></DIV>>     racers often are mixed from ages 0-100, and they don't seem to complain much.

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>     Tim Maloney

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>[Message truncated. Tap Edit->Mark for Download to get remaining portion.]

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

<DIV></DIV>>To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

<DIV></DIV>>To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>

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Kent Johnston

2004-03-09

All the comparisons to other sports seems to forget one important factor. Cycling is the only one of the sports mentioned where we actually race together in a pack and its strategy effects the outcome. Running and triathlons are very individual sports in comparison with cycling except in time trials. If you notice, there are many more categories for tt's. So it is much more practical to have numerous categories in the other sports. If we are using other sports as an example, we need to make sure that they are realistic comparisons. With pack racing, not always the strongest rider wins. An out of shape savvy sprinter can create havic on a stongman in the right race, like piece of cake for example. Where as the strongest runner or triathlete usually prevails in the results in those individual sports.

-----Original Message-----

    From: "Tim"<tim-@comcast.net>

    Sent: 03/09/2004 2:54:35 PM

    To: "ob-@topica.com"<ob-@topica.com>

    Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Master Categories

      Master CategoriesGeorge,



    A faster racer like David Zimbleman maybe prevented from moving down,

    but you would would never be prevented from moving up to race him. Unless

    masters is based on age not ability, and your happen to be under 45. That

    seems to be why having a Masters 1/2/3 and Master 4/5 is better than further

    dividing classes by age.



    Master is in part based on age, but with the idea of being a more experienced

    and mature crowd. Younger racers are considered to be more higher risk takers

    and more hostile, that's why we don't let run for president or race masters.



    I think Mike's real point is that we are lucky to have classes to choose from. The lady

    racers often are mixed from ages 0-100, and they don't seem to complain much.



    Tim Maloney





[Message truncated. Tap Edit->Mark for Download to get remaining portion.]

Tim

2004-03-09

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Master CategoriesGeorge,

A faster racer like David Zimbleman maybe prevented from moving down,

but you would would never be prevented from moving up to race him. Unless

masters is based on age not ability, and your happen to be under 45. That

seems to be why having a Masters 1/2/3 and Master 4/5 is better than further

dividing classes by age.

Master is in part based on age, but with the idea of being a more experienced

and mature crowd. Younger racers are considered to be more higher risk takers

and more hostile, that's why we don't let run for president or race masters.

I think Mike's real point is that we are lucky to have classes to choose from. The lady

racers often are mixed from ages 0-100, and they don't seem to complain much.

Tim Maloney

----- Original Message -----

From: Schreck, George

To: 'ob-@topica.com'

Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 1:56 PM

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Master Categories

Sorry to continue this, but I just read Mike's e-mail, which thought was a bit of sophistry on his part.

Mike, I read your blurb that parroted mine, and I think you missed the point. Masters categories are age categories, not ability categories. Ability categories are for the non-masters races. Every other sport has masters categories based on age, and they do not sort within those categories by ability. That is the point of a maters category, older racers. If we took you thinking further, there would be no need for a masters category and we should all race based on ability.

As for your point that age is not an indicator of ability, it is patently incorrect. Everyone's performance declines as they get older. Even David Auker is probably a bit slower than he was when he was 25 or 30.    The point of masters racing is to group people by age and then let ability take over. Frankly, it is difficult for me to race against someone David Zimbleman (actually, my performance compared to his probably means we really are not racing against each other), but I would think it ridiculous that he would be prevented from racing against me because he is so much better. It is racing and that is the point, he is better than me in the 45+ group.

          George Schreck

           Phone: (503) 813-7211

            Fax: (503) 813-7190



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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>George,</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>A faster racer like David Zimbleman maybe prevented

from moving down,</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>but you would would never be prevented from moving

up to race him. Unless</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>masters is based on age not ability, and your

happen to be under 45. That</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>seems to be why having a Masters 1/2/3 and Master

4/5 is better than further</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>dividing classes by age.</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Master is in part based on age, but with the idea

of being a more </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>experienced </FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>and mature crowd. Younger racers are considered to

be more higher risk takers</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>and more hostile, that's why we don't let run for

president or race masters.</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I think Mike's real point is that we are lucky to

have classes to choose from. The lady</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>racers often are mixed from ages 0-100, and they

don't seem to complain much.</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Tim Maloney</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<DIV

style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>

<A title=geor-@pacificorp.com

href="mailto:george.-@pacificorp.com">Schreck, George</A> </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title-@topica.com

href="mailto:'ob-@topica.com'">'ob-@topica.com'</A> </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, March 09, 2004 1:56

PM</DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [OBRA Chat] Master

Categories</DIV>

<DIV><BR></DIV>

<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>Sorry to continue this, but I just read Mike's

e-mail, which thought was a bit of sophistry on his part.</FONT> </P>

<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>Mike, I read your blurb that parroted mine, and I

think you missed the point. Masters categories are age categories, not

ability categories. Ability categories are for the non-masters races.

Every other sport has masters categories based on age, and they do not sort

within those categories by ability. That is the point of a maters

category, older racers. If we took you thinking further, there would be

no need for a masters category and we should all race based on

ability.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>As for your point that age is not an indicator of

ability, it is patently incorrect. Everyone's performance declines as

they get older. Even David Auker is probably a bit slower than he was

when he was 25 or 30.    The point of masters racing is to

group people by age and then let ability take over. Frankly, it is

difficult for me to race against someone David Zimbleman (actually, my

performance compared to his probably means we really are not racing against

each other), but I would think it ridiculous that he would be prevented from

racing against me because he is so much better. It is racing and that is

the point, he is better than me in the 45+ group.</FONT></P>

<P><B><I><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" color=#800000

size=5>        George

Schreck</FONT></I></B><I></I> <BR><B><I><FONT face="Bookman Old Style"

color=#800000

size=4>         Phone: (503)

813-7211</FONT></I></B><I></I> <BR><B><I><FONT face="Bookman Old Style"

color=#800000 size=4>

Fax: (503) 813-7190</FONT></I></B><I></I> <BR><FONT face=Arial> </FONT>

</P><PRE>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com</PRE>

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Schreck, George

2004-03-09

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Sorry to continue this, but I just read Mike's e-mail, which thought was a

bit of sophistry on his part.

Mike, I read your blurb that parroted mine, and I think you missed the

point. Masters categories are age categories, not ability categories.

Ability categories are for the non-masters races. Every other sport has

masters categories based on age, and they do not sort within those

categories by ability. That is the point of a maters category, older

racers. If we took you thinking further, there would be no need for a

masters category and we should all race based on ability.

As for your point that age is not an indicator of ability, it is patently

incorrect. Everyone's performance declines as they get older. Even David

Auker is probably a bit slower than he was when he was 25 or 30.    The

point of masters racing is to group people by age and then let ability take

over. Frankly, it is difficult for me to race against someone David

Zimbleman (actually, my performance compared to his probably means we really

are not racing against each other), but I would think it ridiculous that he

would be prevented from racing against me because he is so much better. It

is racing and that is the point, he is better than me in the 45+ group.

        George Schreck

         Phone: (503) 813-7211

          Fax: (503) 813-7190

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<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Sorry to continue this, but I just read Mike's e-mail, which thought was a bit of sophistry on his part.</FONT>

</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Mike, I read your blurb that parroted mine, and I think you missed the point. Masters categories are age categories, not ability categories. Ability categories are for the non-masters races. Every other sport has masters categories based on age, and they do not sort within those categories by ability. That is the point of a maters category, older racers. If we took you thinking further, there would be no need for a masters category and we should all race based on ability.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">As for your point that age is not an indicator of ability, it is patently incorrect. Everyone's performance declines as they get older. Even David Auker is probably a bit slower than he was when he was 25 or 30.    The point of masters racing is to group people by age and then let ability take over. Frankly, it is difficult for me to race against someone David Zimbleman (actually, my performance compared to his probably means we really are not racing against each other), but I would think it ridiculous that he would be prevented from racing against me because he is so much better. It is racing and that is the point, he is better than me in the 45+ group.</FONT></P>

<P><B><I><FONT COLOR="#800000" SIZE=5 FACE="Bookman Old Style">??????? George Schreck</FONT></I></B><I></I>

<BR><B><I><FONT COLOR="#800000" SIZE=4 FACE="Bookman Old Style">?????????Phone: (503) 813-7211</FONT></I></B><I></I>

<BR><B><I><FONT COLOR="#800000" SIZE=4 FACE="Bookman Old Style">????????? Fax: (503) 813-7190</FONT></I></B><I></I>

<BR><FONT FACE="Arial">?</FONT>

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