Mr. lemond

Daniel Ashcom

2004-07-19



I may be WAY off here, and I'll never be surprised if any top athlete

is doping, but doesn't Lance in fact posses a greater than average

lung capacity and ability to clear lactic acid?



And, doesn't sleeping in an altitude tent more or less have the same

effect as using EPO?



da



On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 06:01:02 -0700, snjr <sn-@charter.net> wrote:

 There was an interesting segment on ESPN yesterday 7/16/04. I cannot find it

on the net, however, a previous staff member of the USPS team was

interviewed and he stated that LA was very threatening, telling him

something to the effect "I will spend a lot of money to make your life

miserable" when referring to his discussion about the team's apparent

doping. Greg Lemond made similar references to threats during the segement.



There were also insinuations that Armstrong pressured other team members to

use drugs. I have heard in the past that may be part of the reason riders

like Julich and Hamilton left USPS.



It will be a sad day for American cycling if this doping is accurate. I

think Lemond's observations are logical. Armstrong doesn't possess any

super human characteristics such as an off-the-charts lung capacity,

however, he continues to dominate, superhuman. Additionally, his recovery

from cancer was remarkable beyond reason. If memory serves, LA's recovery

went from his inability to ride out of his driveway to winning the tour in

less than 18 months. I guess the question is, superhuman or great drugs?



DISCLAIMER FOR ALL YOU HOT HEADS:

I am not stating that LA is doping, so don't start with the innocent until

proven guilty crap. I AM SAYING THE SKEPTICISM IS REASONABLE.







To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

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Daniel Ashcom

2004-07-19



I may be WAY off here, and I'll never be surprised if any top athlete

is doping, but doesn't Lance in fact posses a greater than average

lung capacity and ability to clear lactic acid?



And, doesn't sleeping in an altitude tent more or less have the same

effect as using EPO?



da



On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 06:01:02 -0700, snjr <sn-@charter.net> wrote:

 There was an interesting segment on ESPN yesterday 7/16/04. I cannot find it

on the net, however, a previous staff member of the USPS team was

interviewed and he stated that LA was very threatening, telling him

something to the effect "I will spend a lot of money to make your life

miserable" when referring to his discussion about the team's apparent

doping. Greg Lemond made similar references to threats during the segement.



There were also insinuations that Armstrong pressured other team members to

use drugs. I have heard in the past that may be part of the reason riders

like Julich and Hamilton left USPS.



It will be a sad day for American cycling if this doping is accurate. I

think Lemond's observations are logical. Armstrong doesn't possess any

super human characteristics such as an off-the-charts lung capacity,

however, he continues to dominate, superhuman. Additionally, his recovery

from cancer was remarkable beyond reason. If memory serves, LA's recovery

went from his inability to ride out of his driveway to winning the tour in

less than 18 months. I guess the question is, superhuman or great drugs?



DISCLAIMER FOR ALL YOU HOT HEADS:

I am not stating that LA is doping, so don't start with the innocent until

proven guilty crap. I AM SAYING THE SKEPTICISM IS REASONABLE.







To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



Daniel Ashcom

2004-07-19



I may be WAY off here, and I'll never be surprised if any top athlete

is doping, but doesn't Lance in fact posses a greater than average

lung capacity and ability to clear lactic acid?



And, doesn't sleeping in an altitude tent more or less have the same

effect as using EPO?



da



On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 06:01:02 -0700, snjr <sn-@charter.net> wrote:

 There was an interesting segment on ESPN yesterday 7/16/04. I cannot find it

on the net, however, a previous staff member of the USPS team was

interviewed and he stated that LA was very threatening, telling him

something to the effect "I will spend a lot of money to make your life

miserable" when referring to his discussion about the team's apparent

doping. Greg Lemond made similar references to threats during the segement.



There were also insinuations that Armstrong pressured other team members to

use drugs. I have heard in the past that may be part of the reason riders

like Julich and Hamilton left USPS.



It will be a sad day for American cycling if this doping is accurate. I

think Lemond's observations are logical. Armstrong doesn't possess any

super human characteristics such as an off-the-charts lung capacity,

however, he continues to dominate, superhuman. Additionally, his recovery

from cancer was remarkable beyond reason. If memory serves, LA's recovery

went from his inability to ride out of his driveway to winning the tour in

less than 18 months. I guess the question is, superhuman or great drugs?



DISCLAIMER FOR ALL YOU HOT HEADS:

I am not stating that LA is doping, so don't start with the innocent until

proven guilty crap. I AM SAYING THE SKEPTICISM IS REASONABLE.







To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



Daniel Ashcom

2004-07-19



I may be WAY off here, and I'll never be surprised if any top athlete

is doping, but doesn't Lance in fact posses a greater than average

lung capacity and ability to clear lactic acid?



And, doesn't sleeping in an altitude tent more or less have the same

effect as using EPO?



da



On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 06:01:02 -0700, snjr <sn-@charter.net> wrote:

 There was an interesting segment on ESPN yesterday 7/16/04. I cannot find it

on the net, however, a previous staff member of the USPS team was

interviewed and he stated that LA was very threatening, telling him

something to the effect "I will spend a lot of money to make your life

miserable" when referring to his discussion about the team's apparent

doping. Greg Lemond made similar references to threats during the segement.



There were also insinuations that Armstrong pressured other team members to

use drugs. I have heard in the past that may be part of the reason riders

like Julich and Hamilton left USPS.



It will be a sad day for American cycling if this doping is accurate. I

think Lemond's observations are logical. Armstrong doesn't possess any

super human characteristics such as an off-the-charts lung capacity,

however, he continues to dominate, superhuman. Additionally, his recovery

from cancer was remarkable beyond reason. If memory serves, LA's recovery

went from his inability to ride out of his driveway to winning the tour in

less than 18 months. I guess the question is, superhuman or great drugs?



DISCLAIMER FOR ALL YOU HOT HEADS:

I am not stating that LA is doping, so don't start with the innocent until

proven guilty crap. I AM SAYING THE SKEPTICISM IS REASONABLE.







To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



Donovan Douglas

2004-07-19



Greg will always be one of the great American cyclist, regardless of

what's coming out of his mouth.

Lance will likely be the greatest Tour rider of all time, love him or

hate him.

But we seem to be forgetting a man that also had to overcome racism in

his pursuit of cycling excellence. Perhaps we can only think back as far

as Lemond, but that is a shame. Let us not forget the achievements of

one Major Taylor. In an era of wooden rims, crowded board tracks and

only one gear, he was the fastest cyclist in the world.



D

Dave German wrote:

 

I think most would agree Mr. L needs to shut his 20lb. mouth unless he

wants

to produce some real proof of his lame opinion!





 From: Dan H <br-@politesociety.com>

Reply-To: br-@politesociety.com

To: sal-@bicyclinghub.com, ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Mr. lemond

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:08:07 -0700



"To accuse everyone else of doping while you would come into to the

season

20 pounds overweight is just plain silly."

???!

I come into the season 20 pounds overweight [and often maintain it] but

if

I thought someone was doping and I said something about it I don't think



being fat would affect my credibility.

   ----- Original Message -----

   From: sal-@bicyclinghub.com

   To: ob-@topica.com

   Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 10:01 AM

   Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Mr. lemond





   Greg LeMond loved eating at Taco Bell too many times during the off

season and his weight always reflected that in January. To accuse

everyone

else of doping while you would come into to the season 20 pounds

overweight

is just plain silly.



   Although Lance is probably isn't the saint we believe him to be, Greg

has a serious case of sour grapes because he's no longer the best

American

cyclist ever.   To this day, he remains bitter that he didn't win the

1985

Tour De France when his coach told him to stop while he was attacking

his

team leader in the Yellow jersey.



   DD





   Jake Bigham <ja-@chesshirarchitecture.com> wrote:



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To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

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_________________________________________________________________

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Money. http://special.msn.com/money/0407debt.armx







D'Man



Dave German

2004-07-19



I think most would agree Mr. L needs to shut his 20lb. mouth unless he wants

to produce some real proof of his lame opinion!





 From: Dan H <br-@politesociety.com>

Reply-To: br-@politesociety.com

To: sal-@bicyclinghub.com, ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Mr. lemond

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:08:07 -0700



"To accuse everyone else of doping while you would come into to the season

20 pounds overweight is just plain silly."

???!

I come into the season 20 pounds overweight [and often maintain it] but if

I thought someone was doping and I said something about it I don't think

being fat would affect my credibility.

   ----- Original Message -----

   From: sal-@bicyclinghub.com

   To: ob-@topica.com

   Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 10:01 AM

   Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Mr. lemond





   Greg LeMond loved eating at Taco Bell too many times during the off

season and his weight always reflected that in January. To accuse everyone

else of doping while you would come into to the season 20 pounds overweight

is just plain silly.



   Although Lance is probably isn't the saint we believe him to be, Greg

has a serious case of sour grapes because he's no longer the best American

cyclist ever.   To this day, he remains bitter that he didn't win the 1985

Tour De France when his coach told him to stop while he was attacking his

team leader in the Yellow jersey.



   DD





   Jake Bigham <ja-@chesshirarchitecture.com> wrote:



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



_________________________________________________________________

Overwhelmed by debt? Find out how to ?Dig Yourself Out of Debt? from MSN

Money. http://special.msn.com/money/0407debt.armx



Dan H

2004-07-19



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"To accuse everyone else of doping while you would come into to the season 20 pounds overweight is just plain silly."

???!

I come into the season 20 pounds overweight [and often maintain it] but if I thought someone was doping and I said something about it I don't think being fat would affect my credibility.

----- Original Message -----

From: sal-@bicyclinghub.com

To: ob-@topica.com

Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 10:01 AM

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Mr. lemond





Greg LeMond loved eating at Taco Bell too many times during the off season and his weight always reflected that in January. To accuse everyone else of doping while you would come into to the season 20 pounds overweight is just plain silly.



Although Lance is probably isn't the saint we believe him to be, Greg has a serious case of sour grapes because he's no longer the best American cyclist ever.   To this day, he remains bitter that he didn't win the 1985 Tour De France when his coach told him to stop while he was attacking his team leader in the Yellow jersey.



DD





Jake Bigham <ja-@chesshirarchitecture.com> wrote:

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<DIV>"To accuse everyone else of doping while you would come into to the season

20 pounds overweight is just plain silly."</DIV>

<DIV>???!</DIV>

<DIV>I come into the season 20 pounds overweight [and often maintain it] but if

I thought someone was doping and I said something about it I don't think being

fat would affect my credibility.</DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>

<DIV

style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>

<A title=-@bicyclinghub.com

href="mailto:sal-@bicyclinghub.com">sal-@bicyclinghub.com</A> </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title-@topica.com

href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A> </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, July 19, 2004 10:01

AM</DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [OBRA Chat] Mr. lemond</DIV>

<DIV><BR></DIV>

<DIV>Greg LeMond loved eating at Taco Bell too many times during the off

season and his weight always reflected that in January.  To accuse

everyone else of doping while you would come into to the season 20 pounds

overweight is just plain silly.  </DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Although Lance is probably isn't the saint we believe him to

be, Greg has a serious case of sour grapes because he's no longer

the best American cyclist ever.   To this day, he remains

bitter that he didn't win the 1985 Tour De France when his coach told him to

stop while he was attacking his team leader in the Yellow jersey.  </DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>DD</DIV>

<DIV><BR><BR><B><I>Jake Bigham <ja-@chesshirarchitecture.com></I></B>

wrote:</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>



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Dave Campbell

2004-07-19



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Bottom line...

Greg has been there and seen alot and like most of us has grown very skeptical. Very disillusioned overall by the level of drugs in the sport that he dearly loves. Rightfully so. If you remember the comments he made about Lance working with Ferarri a couple yrs ago, they were very reactionary and he later recanted a bit. I think this shapes his comments which probably come too quickly and without enough SPECIFIC background info, but rather his GENERAL feelings of the sport in general...which sadly is "lots of dope everywhere". The two things I come back to with Lance:

1. He is INCREDIBLY scrutinized at every conceiveable level...how could he conceal drug use?

2. To come back from life-threatening illness and then seems counter-intuitive on every level.

----- Original Message -----

From: sal-@bicyclinghub.com

To: ob-@topica.com

Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 10:01 AM

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Mr. lemond





Greg LeMond loved eating at Taco Bell too many times during the off season and his weight always reflected that in January. To accuse everyone else of doping while you would come into to the season 20 pounds overweight is just plain silly.



Although Lance is probably isn't the saint we believe him to be, Greg has a serious case of sour grapes because he's no longer the best American cyclist ever.   To this day, he remains bitter that he didn't win the 1985 Tour De France when his coach told him to stop while he was attacking his team leader in the Yellow jersey.



DD





Jake Bigham <ja-@chesshirarchitecture.com> wrote:

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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Bottom line...</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Greg has been there and seen alot and like most of

us has grown very skeptical.  Very disillusioned overall by the level of

drugs in the sport that he dearly loves.  Rightfully so.  If you

remember the comments he made about Lance working with Ferarri a couple yrs ago,

they were very reactionary and he later recanted a bit.  I think this

shapes his comments which probably come too quickly and without enough SPECIFIC

background info, but rather his GENERAL feelings of the sport in general...which

sadly is "lots of dope everywhere".  The two things I come back to with

Lance:</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>1.  He is INCREDIBLY scrutinized at every

conceiveable level...how could he conceal drug use?</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>2.  To come back from life-threatening illness

and then seems counter-intuitive on every level.</FONT></DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>

<DIV

style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>

<A title=-@bicyclinghub.com

href="mailto:sal-@bicyclinghub.com">sal-@bicyclinghub.com</A> </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title-@topica.com

href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A> </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, July 19, 2004 10:01

AM</DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [OBRA Chat] Mr. lemond</DIV>

<DIV><BR></DIV>

<DIV>Greg LeMond loved eating at Taco Bell too many times during the off

season and his weight always reflected that in January.  To accuse

everyone else of doping while you would come into to the season 20 pounds

overweight is just plain silly.  </DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Although Lance is probably isn't the saint we believe him to

be, Greg has a serious case of sour grapes because he's no longer

the best American cyclist ever.   To this day, he remains

bitter that he didn't win the 1985 Tour De France when his coach told him to

stop while he was attacking his team leader in the Yellow jersey.  </DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>DD</DIV>

<DIV><BR><BR><B><I>Jake Bigham <ja-@chesshirarchitecture.com></I></B>

wrote:</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>



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Sal-@bicyclinghub.com

2004-07-19



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Greg LeMond loved eating at Taco Bell too many times during the off season and his weight always reflected that in January. To accuse everyone else of doping while you would come into to the season 20 pounds overweight is just plain silly.



Although Lance is probably isn't the saint we believe him to be, Greg has a serious case of sour grapes because he's no longer the best American cyclist ever.   To this day, he remains bitter that he didn't win the 1985 Tour De France when his coach told him to stop while he was attacking his team leader in the Yellow jersey.



DD





Jake Bigham <ja-@chesshirarchitecture.com> wrote:



On Saturday, July 17, 2004, at 02:48 PM, Derek Darves wrote:

 As for Lemond, I wouldn't be suprised at all to find out, perhaps many

years later, that he was privy to information that you cannot find by

following Velonews and OLN everyday. He has said on several occasions

that he is disgusted with the hold doping has on cometitive cycling,

and

he probably has good reason for saying so.

perhaps because he was involved up to his eyeballs?



Jake Bigham

2774 SW Summit Dr.

Portland, OR 97201

h/ 503 228 1338

c/ 503 419 8012



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com







Douglas Duguay

www.bicyclinghub.com

Toll Free 888-817-8060

Phone 503-234-9898

Fax 503-296-2669

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<DIV>Greg LeMond loved eating at Taco Bell too many times during the off season and his weight always reflected that in January.  To accuse everyone else of doping while you would come into to the season 20 pounds overweight is just plain silly.  </DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Although Lance is probably isn't the saint we believe him to be, Greg has a serious case of sour grapes because he's no longer the best American cyclist ever.   To this day, he remains bitter that he didn't win the 1985 Tour De France when his coach told him to stop while he was attacking his team leader in the Yellow jersey.  </DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>DD</DIV>

<DIV><BR><BR><B><I>Jake Bigham <ja-@chesshirarchitecture.com></I></B> wrote:</DIV>

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Phil Harden

2004-07-18



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Good Day All,

I have read only some of the messages of support and defending Lance and some of the accusatory messages of Mr. Armstrong. I will state up front that I do not believe that Mr. Armstrong is using performance enhancement drugs.

How many times has he been tested? We all know that for every day that he wears the Yellow Jersey, he gets tested. He gets random tests while competing. He gets random tests during the off season. I was told that he even has to inform the governing bodies of his travels, down to the details as to where he is going to be lodging and how long he will be in each place. This may even apply to when he is at home. Talk about giving up your liberties. And yet, inspite of all the testing, inspite of all the investigations, inspite of all of the accusations, not one positive test result has been made public.

This is a very naive position, you will say. To that I will answer. Just think of the "Gottcha!!!!" effect that a positive test result would have. The person or agency that could prove completely that Lance Armstrong used and is using performance enhancing drugs, would have their reputation set. This person would be hailed as a journalist crusader, a person to be respected and feared. Why? Because he was able to catch the King of Doping!!!!

I, personally believe that drugs are far to prevalent in sports. You are correct when you state that there is not any testing, or at least very litte testing in the NFL. The NBA doesn't test for marijuana or other illegal drugs. What sort of message do you think that sends to kids today? Does it surprise anyone when we hear of the antics of people like Rasheed Wallace, or hear of the death of Lynn Bias? Drugs are a cancer on our society. And just like cancer, their end result is never good.

This brings me to the more personal part of this message. I purchased a LiveStrong bracelet. When I first received them, I was sorely disappointed. Then I realized that they only cost a buck! The money is not the point. I have many friends who are cancer survivors. I will tell about two of them. Karen is a double breast cancer survivor. Karen was embarrassed to be seen in church because she was loosing her hair. I shaved my head bald so that she would feel more at ease. Shaving my head was a hassle. And every time that it became a problem for me and when I wanted to stop, I thought about Karen and the hassles that she was having. Then I lathered up my head and scrapped my razor across my cue ball. Then I would seek out Karen and give her a big hug. She is doing fine today.

The other person is Cynthia. Cynthia also is a breast cancer survivor. Just as she was about to retire and to enjoy life, she was hit with breast cancer. She had surgery, chemo and maybe even radiation treatments. This is like being in a knife fight and when you get cut and fall down, then people repeatedly kick you and yell at you to get up. I wonder how many of use would survive? Cynthia then reassessed her life. She moved to Florida to be closer to her family and old time friends. Cynthia's struggles upset my wife very much. This is how I knew the importance of Cynthia in my life and my wife's life. Cynthia just recently died. Her cancer returned with a vengeance. But now her ordeal is over.

So when I look at the bracelet that I wear. This rubber band. It is not the price that I paid that matters. It is the debt that was incurred by others that motivates me. Karen may still surcome to cancer. Currently she is cancer free. Cynthia is cured. We all grieve when we think of her and others. But, truly, her struggle is over. She has made it over the hill and is now in the promised land.

If Lance is using drugs, then it is just one more example of why we should not look up to sporting figures as our role models. If he is not, then

GO LANCE GO!!!

KICK THEIR BUTTS!!!!

Phil Harden   

----- Original Message -----

From: Jake Bigham

To: dar-@yahoo.com

Cc: ob-@topica.com

Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 11:23 PM

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Mr. lemond







On Saturday, July 17, 2004, at 02:48 PM, Derek Darves wrote:



    As for Lemond, I wouldn't be suprised at all to find out, perhaps many

    years later, that he was privy to information that you cannot find by

    following Velonews and OLN everyday. He has said on several occasions

    that he is disgusted with the hold doping has on cometitive cycling, and

    he probably has good reason for saying so.



perhaps because he was involved up to his eyeballs?



Jake Bigham

2774 SW Summit Dr.

Portland, OR 97201

h/ 503 228 1338

c/ 503 419 8012



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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Good Day All,</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I have read only some of the messages of support

and defending Lance and some of the accusatory messages of Mr. Armstrong. 

I will state up front that I do not believe that Mr. Armstrong is using

performance enhancement drugs.  </FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>How many times has he been tested?  We all

know that for every day that he wears the Yellow Jersey, he gets tested. 

He gets random tests while competing.  He gets random tests during the off

season.  I was told that he even has to inform the governing bodies of his

travels, down to the details as to where he is going to be lodging and how long

he will be in each place.  This may even apply to when he is at home. 

Talk about giving up your liberties.  And yet, inspite of all the testing,

inspite of all the investigations, inspite of all of the accusations, not one

positive test result has been made public. </FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>This is a very naive position, you will say. 

To that I will answer.  Just think of the "Gottcha!!!!" effect that a

positive test result would have.  The person or agency that could prove

completely that Lance Armstrong used and is using performance enhancing drugs,

would have their reputation set.  This person would be hailed as a

journalist crusader, a person to be respected and feared.  Why? 

Because he was able to catch the King of Doping!!!!</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I, personally believe that drugs are far to

prevalent in sports.  You are correct when you state that there is not any

testing, or at least very litte testing in the NFL.  The NBA doesn't test

for marijuana or other illegal drugs.  What sort of message do you think

that sends to kids today?  Does it surprise anyone when we hear of the

antics of people like Rasheed Wallace, or hear of the death of Lynn Bias? 

Drugs are a cancer on our society.  And just like cancer, their end result

is never good.  </FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>This brings me to the more personal part of this

message.  I purchased a LiveStrong bracelet.  When I first received

them, I was sorely disappointed.  Then I realized that they only cost a

buck!  The money is not the point.  I have many friends who are

cancer survivors.  I will tell about two of them.  Karen is a

double breast cancer survivor.  Karen was embarrassed to be seen in

church because she was loosing her hair.  I shaved my head bald so that she

would feel more at ease.  Shaving my head was a hassle.  And

every time that it became a problem for me and when I wanted to stop,  I

thought about Karen and the hassles that she was having.  Then I

lathered up my head and scrapped my razor across my cue ball.  Then I would

seek out Karen and give her a big hug.  She is doing fine

today.</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The other person is Cynthia.  Cynthia also is

a breast cancer survivor.  Just as she was about to retire and to enjoy

life, she was hit with breast cancer.  She had surgery, chemo and maybe

even radiation treatments.  This is like being in a knife fight and

when you get cut and fall down, then people repeatedly kick you and yell at you

to get up.  I wonder how many of use would survive?  Cynthia then

reassessed her life.  She moved to Florida to be closer to her family

and old time friends.  Cynthia's struggles upset my wife very

much.  This is how I knew the importance of Cynthia in my life and my

wife's life.  Cynthia just recently died.  Her cancer returned with a

vengeance.  But now her ordeal is over.  </FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>So when I look at the bracelet that I wear. 

This rubber band.  It is not the price that I paid that matters.  It

is the debt that was incurred by others that motivates me.  Karen may still

surcome to cancer.  Currently she is cancer free.  Cynthia is

cured.  We all grieve when we think of her and others.  But, truly,

her struggle is over.  She has made it over the hill

and is now in the promised land.</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If Lance is using drugs, then it is just one more

example of why we should not look up to sporting figures as our role

models.  If he is not, then</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>GO LANCE GO!!!  </FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>KICK THEIR BUTTS!!!!</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Phil Harden   </FONT></DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>

<DIV

style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>

<A title-@chesshirarchitecture.com

href="mailto:ja-@chesshirarchitecture.com">Jake Bigham</A> </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=-@yahoo.com

href="mailto:dar-@yahoo.com">dar-@yahoo.com</A> </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title-@topica.com

href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A> </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, July 17, 2004 11:23

PM</DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [OBRA Chat] Mr. lemond</DIV>

<DIV><BR></DIV><BR>On Saturday, July 17, 2004, at 02:48 PM, Derek Darves

wrote:<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE>As for Lemond, I wouldn't be suprised at all to find out,

    perhaps many <BR>years later, that he was privy to information that you

    cannot find by <BR>following Velonews and OLN everyday. He has said on

    several occasions <BR>that he is disgusted with the hold doping has on

    cometitive cycling, and <BR>he probably has good reason for saying so.

<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>perhaps because he was involved up to his eyeballs?<BR><BR><?fontfamily><?param Helvetica>Jake Bigham<BR>2774 SW Summit

Dr.<BR>Portland, OR 97201<BR>h/ 503 228 1338<BR>c/ 503 419

8012<?/fontfamily><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>



------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C46CA0.4CE8AA20--



Jake Bigham

2004-07-17





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On Saturday, July 17, 2004, at 02:48 PM, Derek Darves wrote:

 As for Lemond, I wouldn't be suprised at all to find out, perhaps many

years later, that he was privy to information that you cannot find by

following Velonews and OLN everyday. He has said on several occasions

that he is disgusted with the hold doping has on cometitive cycling,

and

he probably has good reason for saying so.

perhaps because he was involved up to his eyeballs?



Jake Bigham

2774 SW Summit Dr.

Portland, OR 97201

h/ 503 228 1338

c/ 503 419 8012



--Apple-Mail-6-155470956

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Content-Type: text/enriched;

charset=US-ASCII







On Saturday, July 17, 2004, at 02:48 PM, Derek Darves wrote:



<excerpt>As for Lemond, I wouldn't be suprised at all to find out,

perhaps many



years later, that he was privy to information that you cannot find by



following Velonews and OLN everyday. He has said on several occasions



that he is disgusted with the hold doping has on cometitive cycling,

and



he probably has good reason for saying so.



</excerpt>perhaps because he was involved up to his eyeballs?





<fontfamily><param>Helvetica</param>Jake Bigham



2774 SW Summit Dr.



Portland, OR 97201



h/ 503 228 1338



c/ 503 419 8012</fontfamily>





--Apple-Mail-6-155470956--



Derek Darves

2004-07-17



Yes, and David Millar was a proponent of testing and just admitted to

doping right before competing in several major races that employed

doping controls. Blood and urine screening is not an exact science.

People who use EPO do not always test positive for the drug, as with

David Millar.



The fact is that many dopers are not caught by testing but by police

investigations, e.g. Millar or the Festina team. So enough with the

"most tested" argument, its so hackneyed. Also, the FACT is that there

are people, such as Emma O'Reilly, who accuse him of doping, and have

very specific descriptions of how the team used dope leading up to major

races. If you have somehow managed to purchase and read a copy of "LA

Confidential" then I would welcome your criticism of the book and its

journalistic merits. But if all you have heard is the "it's not well

written" stuff proffered daily on the Outdoor Lance Network, then maybe

you should withhold judgment. Most of the attacks against this book seem

to be from people who have never read it.



As for Lemond, I wouldn't be suprised at all to find out, perhaps many

years later, that he was privy to information that you cannot find by

following Velonews and OLN everyday. He has said on several occasions

that he is disgusted with the hold doping has on cometitive cycling, and

he probably has good reason for saying so.



Philip D Barila wrote:

 

FACT: LA has been a very vocal proponent of blood tests, instead of

peeing

in the bottle.

Do you really think anyone who is systematically doping on the scale

necessary to create a "superhuman" is that confident in the masking

technology he'd be using?



FACT: LA has passed at least one of same blood tests, and a huge number

of

urine tests, and had dopes with (and without) press passes going through

the

team's garbage, without any credible evidence of wrongdoing whatsoever

having been found.



Anyone can say anything, but so far, it's only words. Surely, with the

huge

bounty Le Monde and other organizations have offered for credible

evidence

of LA doping, someone who works for the team would gotten greedy by now,

don't you think?



While you are advocating skepticism, advocate skepticism both ways.

Currently, your tone suggests that your skepticism is unidirectional.



 -----Original Message-----

From: snjr [mailto:sn-@charter.net]

Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 7:01 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Mr. lemond



There was an interesting segment on ESPN yesterday 7/16/04. I

cannot find it

on the net, however, a previous staff member of the USPS team was

interviewed and he stated that LA was very threatening, telling him

something to the effect "I will spend a lot of money to make your life

miserable" when referring to his discussion about the team's apparent

doping. Greg Lemond made similar references to threats

during the segement.



There were also insinuations that Armstrong pressured other

team members to

use drugs. I have heard in the past that may be part of the

reason riders

like Julich and Hamilton left USPS.



It will be a sad day for American cycling if this doping is

accurate. I

think Lemond's observations are logical. Armstrong doesn't

possess any

super human characteristics such as an off-the-charts lung capacity,

however, he continues to dominate, superhuman. Additionally,

his recovery

from cancer was remarkable beyond reason. If memory serves,

LA's recovery

went from his inability to ride out of his driveway to

winning the tour in

less than 18 months. I guess the question is, superhuman or

great drugs?



DISCLAIMER FOR ALL YOU HOT HEADS:

I am not stating that LA is doping, so don't start with the

innocent until

proven guilty crap. I AM SAYING THE SKEPTICISM IS REASONABLE.





There was an interesting segment on ESPN yesterday 7/16/04. I cannot find it

on the net, however, a previous staff member of the USPS team was

interviewed and he stated that LA was very threatening, telling him

something to the effect "I will spend a lot of money to make your life

miserable" when referring to his discussion about the team's apparent

doping. Greg Lemond made similar references to threats during the segement.



There were also insinuations that Armstrong pressured other team members to

use drugs. I have heard in the past that may be part of the reason riders

like Julich and Hamilton left USPS.



It will be a sad day for American cycling if this doping is accurate. I

think Lemond's observations are logical. Armstrong doesn't possess any

super human characteristics such as an off-the-charts lung capacity,

however, he continues to dominate, superhuman. Additionally, his recovery

from cancer was remarkable beyond reason. If memory serves, LA's recovery

went from his inability to ride out of his driveway to winning the tour in

less than 18 months. I guess the question is, superhuman or great drugs?



DISCLAIMER FOR ALL YOU HOT HEADS:

I am not stating that LA is doping, so don't start with the innocent until

proven guilty crap. I AM SAYING THE SKEPTICISM IS REASONABLE.



Peter Murphy

2004-07-16







Lemond wrecked Hinault's chance at 6 who was his teammate at the time. And

whined the whole time how the team wasn't working for him and how this was

supposed to be his tour.



Don't get me wrong, he is one of the reasons I am on a bike today, but

please. You don't see Merckx, Hinault or Indurain crying drugs and Lance is

about to surpass them.



And of course...they all dope in all sports, there is no such thing as

talent, drive and ambition. Better results through illegal

chemistry..(sarcasm).





Pete Murphy







 From: dan davis <da-@preciseflight.com>

Reply-To: da-@preciseflight.com

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Mr. lemond

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 21:35:39 +0000



I just have to put my two cents in on Greg Lemond. If Lance is doping,

did Merckx dope? Anquetil? Hinault? Indurain? and Indurain did 5 in a

row! And lets not forget the Mr. Lemond may have won 5 if not for his

hunting accident. I?m quickly loosing any respect I had for him.

Dan Davis

Bend, OR



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



Cary Mallon

2004-07-16



I agree that LeMond's comments only make himself look bad. I was also

disappointed when I was in Paris for the finish last year and the race was

followed by a big parade because of the Centenary Tour. All the living

former champions attended, except Greg. I never learned why he skipped it.



dan davis

2004-07-16



I just have to put my two cents in on Greg Lemond. If Lance is doping,

did Merckx dope? Anquetil? Hinault? Indurain? and Indurain did 5 in a

row! And lets not forget the Mr. Lemond may have won 5 if not for his

hunting accident. I?m quickly loosing any respect I had for him.

Dan Davis

Bend, OR