WARNING-this is a long one- Mr. leMond

Dan H

2004-07-19



Jake, I didn't read all that but I think you are confusing my comment as

defense for LeMond. It's not.



----- Original Message -----

From: Jake Bigham

To: br-@politesociety.com

Cc: sal-@bicyclinghub.com ; ob-@topica.com

Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 1:16 PM

Subject: [OBRA Chat] WARNING-this is a long one- Mr. leMond





Dan- I think the point here is not so much Mr. LeMond's relative weight but

the plausible and probable motivation for a former top athlete to virulently

make discrediting statements about the character and performance of a

currant athlete.

Being overweight or out of shape does not by itself affect anyones

credibility; drawing parallels between your own struggle to perform at peak

levels and another's ability to do the same would affect your credibility if

you failed to recognize that a contributing factor was your own failure

maintain your fitness with the same dedication as the other guy.

The bottom line here is that making public statements denigrating the

achievements of someone who is overshadowing your legacy is a strong

indication of poor sportsmanship. Let us not forget that Mr. LeMond is not

offering proof and does not substantiate his remarks; he just makes

allegations from second, third, or more distant sources. His certainty that

Mr. Armstrong is a cheater comes not from knowledge about what Mr. Armstrong

is actually doing but from his belief that no other American cyclist could

better his record without resort to cheating.

Notice how none of the other luminaries of Tour history have decided to go

on news shows to make similar accusations; I think it is safe to assume that

this is not simply because no one asked them to. Notice also how Mr.

Lemond's has not made allegations regarding Thomas Voeckler's ability to

wear yellow or Richard Virenque's ability to climb (or drug history). Mr.

LeMond doesn't make nasty allegations about Jan Ullrich's night life

penchant for X. No, Mr. Lemond's comments are limited to a single target who

happens to be the man who is overshadowing his mantle as America's greatest

cyclist.

It may turn out that Mr. Armstrong has taken performance enhancing drugs. It

could be he is Eli Lilly's best customer. It may turn out that there are

virtually no professional cyclists in the past 40 years (including Mr.

LeMond) that have not attempted to find an advantage in the medicine chest.

On the other hand it could be that Mr. Armstrong is clean and the whole

thing is a witch hunt. Mr. Armstrong is among the few who would know the

final answer to that question first hand. Mr. LeMond is among the few who

don't care about knowing the facts. Mr. LeMond is among the few who don't

need proof to engage in character assassination.

The question of drugging or not is unknown at this time. The question poor

sportsmanship and jealousy has, sadly, been resolved. I would be ashamed to

ride a bicycle with the name LeMond on it, but I guess a paint job or a few

stickers could fix that!







On Monday, July 19, 2004, at 12:08 PM, Dan H wrote:





"To accuse everyone else of doping while you would come into to the season

20 pounds overweight is just plain silly."

???!

I come into the season 20 pounds overweight [and often maintain it] but if I

thought someone was doping and I said something about it I don't think being

fat would affect my credibility.



----- Original Message -----

From: sal-@bicyclinghub.com

To: ob-@topica.com

Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 10:01 AM

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Mr. lemond



Greg LeMond loved eating at Taco Bell too many times during the off season

and his weight always reflected that in January. To accuse everyone else of

doping while you would come into to the season 20 pounds overweight is just

plain silly.



Although Lance is probably isn't the saint we believe him to be, Greg has a

serious case of sour grapes because he's no longer the best American cyclist

ever.   To this day, he remains bitter that he didn't win the 1985 Tour De

France when his coach told him to stop while he was attacking his team

leader in the Yellow jersey.



DD





Jake Bigham <ja-@chesshirarchitecture.com> wrote:



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

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r>







Jake Bigham

2774 SW Summit Dr.

Portland, OR 97201

h/ 503 228 1338

c/ 503 419 8012



Jake Bigham

2004-07-19





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Dan- I think the point here is not so much Mr. LeMond's relative weight

but the plausible and probable motivation for a former top athlete to

virulently make discrediting statements about the character and

performance of a currant athlete.

Being overweight or out of shape does not by itself affect anyones

credibility; drawing parallels between your own struggle to perform at

peak levels and another's ability to do the same would affect your

credibility if you failed to recognize that a contributing factor was

your own failure maintain your fitness with the same dedication as the

other guy.

The bottom line here is that making public statements denigrating the

achievements of someone who is overshadowing your legacy is a strong

indication of poor sportsmanship. Let us not forget that Mr. LeMond is

not offering proof and does not substantiate his remarks; he just makes

allegations from second, third, or more distant sources. His certainty

that Mr. Armstrong is a cheater comes not from knowledge about what Mr.

Armstrong is actually doing but from his belief that no other American

cyclist could better his record without resort to cheating.

Notice how none of the other luminaries of Tour history have decided

to go on news shows to make similar accusations; I think it is safe to

assume that this is not simply because no one asked them to. Notice

also how Mr. Lemond's has not made allegations regarding Thomas

Voeckler's ability to wear yellow or Richard Virenque's ability to

climb (or drug history). Mr. LeMond doesn't make nasty allegations

about Jan Ullrich's night life penchant for X. No, Mr. Lemond's

comments are limited to a single target who happens to be the man who

is overshadowing his mantle as America's greatest cyclist.

It may turn out that Mr. Armstrong has taken performance enhancing

drugs. It could be he is Eli Lilly's best customer. It may turn out

that there are virtually no professional cyclists in the past 40 years

(including Mr. LeMond) that have not attempted to find an advantage in

the medicine chest.

On the other hand it could be that Mr. Armstrong is clean and the

whole thing is a witch hunt. Mr. Armstrong is among the few who would

know the final answer to that question first hand. Mr. LeMond is among

the few who don't care about knowing the facts. Mr. LeMond is among the

few who don't need proof to engage in character assassination.

The question of drugging or not is unknown at this time. The question

poor sportsmanship and jealousy has, sadly, been resolved. I would be

ashamed to ride a bicycle with the name LeMond on it, but I guess a

paint job or a few stickers could fix that!







On Monday, July 19, 2004, at 12:08 PM, Dan H wrote:



 "To accuse everyone else of doping while you would come into to the

season 20 pounds overweight is just plain silly."

???!

I come into the season 20 pounds overweight [and often maintain it]

but if I thought someone was doping and I said something about it I

don't think being fat would affect my credibility.



----- Original Message -----

From: sal-@bicyclinghub.com

To: ob-@topica.com

Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 10:01 AM

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Mr. lemond



Greg LeMond loved eating at Taco Bell?too many times during the off

season and his weight always reflected that in January.? To accuse

everyone else of doping while you would come into to the season 20

pounds overweight is just plain silly.?

?

Although Lance is probably isn't?the saint we believe him to be,?Greg

has a serious case of?sour grapes because he's no longer the best

American cyclist ever.?? To this day,?he remains bitter that he didn't

win the 1985 Tour De France when his coach told him to stop while he

was attacking his team leader in the Yellow jersey.?

?

DD





Jake Bigham <ja-@chesshirarchitecture.com> wrote:



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To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

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Jake Bigham

2774 SW Summit Dr.

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h/ 503 228 1338

c/ 503 419 8012



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Dan- I think the point here is not so much Mr. LeMond's relative

weight but the plausible and probable motivation for a former top

athlete to virulently make discrediting statements about the character

and performance of a currant athlete.=20



Being overweight or out of shape does not by itself affect =

anyones

credibility; drawing parallels between your own struggle to perform at

peak levels and another's ability to do the same would affect your=20

credibility if you failed to recognize that a contributing factor was

your own failure maintain your fitness with the same dedication as the

other guy.=20



The bottom line here is that making public statements =

denigrating the

achievements of someone who is overshadowing your legacy is a strong

indication of poor sportsmanship. Let us not forget that Mr. LeMond is

not offering proof and does not substantiate his remarks; he just

makes allegations from second, third, or more distant sources. His

certainty that Mr. Armstrong is a cheater comes not from knowledge

about what Mr. Armstrong is actually doing but from his belief that no

other American cyclist could better his record without resort to

cheating.=20



Notice how none of the other luminaries of Tour history have =

decided

to go on news shows to make similar accusations; I think it is safe to

assume that this is not simply because no one asked them to. Notice

also how Mr. Lemond's has not made allegations regarding Thomas

Voeckler's ability to wear yellow or Richard Virenque's ability to

climb (or drug history). Mr. LeMond doesn't make nasty allegations

about Jan Ullrich's night life penchant for X. No, Mr. Lemond's

comments are limited to a single target who happens to be the man who

is overshadowing his mantle as America's greatest cyclist.



It may turn out that Mr. Armstrong has taken performance =

enhancing

drugs. It could be he is Eli Lilly's best customer. It may turn out

that there are virtually no professional cyclists in the past 40 years

(including Mr. LeMond) that have not attempted to find an advantage in

the medicine chest.=20



On the other hand it could be that Mr. Armstrong is clean and =

the

whole thing is a witch hunt. Mr. Armstrong is among the few who would

know the final answer to that question first hand. Mr. LeMond is among

the few who don't care about knowing the facts. Mr. LeMond is among

the few who don't need proof to engage in character assassination.=20



The question of drugging or not is unknown at this time. The =

question

poor sportsmanship and jealousy has, sadly, been resolved. I would be

ashamed to ride a bicycle with the name LeMond on it, but I guess a

paint job or a few stickers could fix that!









On Monday, July 19, 2004, at 12:08 PM, Dan H wrote:





<excerpt>"To accuse everyone else of doping while you would come into

to the season 20 pounds overweight is just plain silly."



???!



I come into the season 20 pounds overweight [and often maintain it]

but if I thought someone was doping and I said something about it I

don't think being fat would affect my credibility.





----- Original Message -----



<bold>From:</bold>

=

<underline><color><param>1999,1999,FFFF</param>sal-@bicyclinghub.com</col=

or></underline>



<bold>To:</bold>

=

<underline><color><param>1999,1999,FFFF</param>ob-@topica.com</color></un=

derline>



<bold>Sent:</bold> Monday, July 19, 2004 10:01 AM



<bold>Subject:</bold> Re: [OBRA Chat] Mr. lemond





Greg LeMond loved eating at Taco Bell=A0too many times during the off

season and his weight always reflected that in January.=A0 To accuse

everyone else of doping while you would come into to the season 20

pounds overweight is just plain silly.=A0



=A0



Although Lance is probably isn't=A0the saint we believe him to be,=A0Greg

has a serious case of=A0sour grapes because he's no longer the best

American cyclist ever.=A0=A0 To this day,=A0he remains bitter that he =

didn't

win the 1985 Tour De France when his coach told him to stop while he

was attacking his team leader in the Yellow jersey.=A0



=A0



DD







<bold><italic>Jake Bigham

<<ja-@chesshirarchitecture.com></italic></bold> wrote:





<fixed><bigger>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.



To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org



To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com</bigger></fixed>





=

r></fixed>







</excerpt><fontfamily><param>Helvetica</param>Jake Bigham



2774 SW Summit Dr.



Portland, OR 97201



h/ 503 228 1338



c/ 503 419 8012</fontfamily>





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