OBRA: OBRA Chat: What is unsportsmanlike beh...

martin cohen

2004-08-16

Well, since the horse is already thrashed and flogged beyond

recognition:

If I'm in a breakaway with another rider and he maliciously spits on me,

the last thing he will need to worry about is a reprimand from an

official! More than likely it will be were to find a 'jaws-of-life' to

extract his bike from his ...!

Of course, if you do see me in a breakaway, be afraid, be very afraid;

it'll mean the laws of nature have been suspended, and you are now

residing in the outer limits/twilight zone!

kevin thompson

2004-08-16

I am glad that in 15 years we have grown to a level were we don't have

to put up with being spit on...for any reason.

Kevin Thompson

Dan H wrote:

I don't think there is any rule of etiquette that says you have to work

in a break but you do have to put up with the consequences of verbal

abuse and maybe even spitting. It's just too bad it couldn't have been

worked out without going to officials and making a federal case of it.

I think 15 years ago, if the rider "B" I knew had gone to an official to

complain about being spat upon, the official would most likely have

shrugged.

   ----- Original Message -----

   From: The Law Office of Mark Lansing

   To: ob-@topica.com

   Sent: Monday, August 16, 2004 8:56 AM

   Subject: [OBRA Chat] What is unsportsmanlike behavior?

   I'd put them both to bed without supper, but my sympathies are with

   Rider A. A few years ago Maurice Torano lit into both Van Schoonhavens

   in similar ways under similar circumstances. If Rider B hadn't sucked

   A's draft without contributing, he wouldn't have sucked his abuse later.

    But there were better ways to handle it. I say warn A about discipline

   and B about etiquette. Then no supper.

   ML

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Dan H

2004-08-16

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I don't think there is any rule of etiquette that says you have to work in a break but you do have to put up with the consequences of verbal abuse and maybe even spitting. It's just too bad it couldn't have been worked out without going to officials and making a federal case of it.

I think 15 years ago, if the rider "B" I knew had gone to an official to complain about being spat upon, the official would most likely have shrugged.

----- Original Message -----

From: The Law Office of Mark Lansing

To: ob-@topica.com

Sent: Monday, August 16, 2004 8:56 AM

Subject: [OBRA Chat] What is unsportsmanlike behavior?

I'd put them both to bed without supper, but my sympathies are with Rider A. A few years ago Maurice Torano lit into both Van Schoonhavens in similar ways under similar circumstances. If Rider B hadn't sucked A's draft without contributing, he wouldn't have sucked his abuse later. But there were better ways to handle it. I say warn A about discipline and B about etiquette. Then no supper.

ML

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I don't think there is any rule of etiquette that

says you have to work in a break but you do have to put up with the consequences

of verbal abuse and maybe even spitting. It's just too bad it couldn't

have been worked out without going to officials and making a federal case of

it.</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I think 15 years ago, if the rider "B" I

knew had gone to an official to complain about being spat upon, the

official would most likely have shrugged.</FONT></DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>

<DIV

style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>

<A title=lan-@rvi.net href="mailto:lansin-@rvi.net">The Law

Office of Mark Lansing</A> </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title-@topica.com

href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A> </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, August 16, 2004 8:56

AM</DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [OBRA Chat] What is

unsportsmanlike behavior?</DIV>

<DIV><BR></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'd put them both to bed without supper, but my

sympathies are with Rider A. A few years ago Maurice Torano lit into

both Van Schoonhavens in similar ways under similar circumstances. If

Rider B hadn't sucked A's draft without contributing, he wouldn't have sucked

his abuse later. But there were better ways to handle it. I say

warn A about discipline and B about etiquette. Then no

supper.</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>ML</FONT></DIV><PRE>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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The Law Office of Mark Lansing

2004-08-16

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I'd put them both to bed without supper, but my sympathies are with Rider A. A few years ago Maurice Torano lit into both Van Schoonhavens in similar ways under similar circumstances. If Rider B hadn't sucked A's draft without contributing, he wouldn't have sucked his abuse later. But there were better ways to handle it. I say warn A about discipline and B about etiquette. Then no supper.

ML

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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'd put them both to bed without supper, but my

sympathies are with Rider A. A few years ago Maurice Torano lit into both

Van Schoonhavens in similar ways under similar circumstances. If Rider B

hadn't sucked A's draft without contributing, he wouldn't have sucked his abuse

later. But there were better ways to handle it. I say warn A about

discipline and B about etiquette. Then no supper.</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>ML</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Sagers, Pat

2004-08-12

Hello,

I feel pretty strongly about the negative behaviors that "mostly" us males

will exhibit in sporting events. I believe that it doesn't belong in any

sporting arena, anytime, but in the real world we have to deal with the

reality of our lack of maturity as well as some testosterone bursts. I too

would enjoy the "public" at large to desire to watch and participate in this

great sport. I too would like to invite friends and bring my family to the

viewer friendly events that I participate in. Wouldn't it be great if bike

racing caught on in this country the way it is honored and respected in

Europe. I doubt this will happen if mothers have to pull the children out

of the area because of despicable behavior and flying profanity.

In this case I believe rider b has a right to sit on anybody's wheel he

wants to even though in this case, taking an occasional pull would give the

break away a better chance of surviving. In road racing, don't the climbers

sit in while the big guys drive the pace and then when the hill comes, it's

the big guy's turn to try to stay on the wheels.

What struck me most about this incident is the lack of any remorse coming

from rider a. Now if we do nothing, rider a will continue (and be

reinforced) in his false belief that his behavior was NOT inappropriate at

all. We can't send this message to people like him. Regardless of the

tactics of rider b, this does not give rider a license to demean the sport

and potentially hurt it's future as a spectator sport.

Pat

-----Original Message-----

From: Mark Greenwood [mailto:mgree-@tqs.com]

Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 5:00 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] What is unsportsmanlike behavior?

I know there have been a lot of responses on this already, but...

I want these races to be something my wife and kids can come watch. If

my kids decide of their own accord they don't want to become bike

racers, that's fine with me. However, I love the sport and I want it to

be something I can be proud of if they do want to get involved in it. I

don't want the example they see to be a couple of arrogant, egotistical

pro wannabes that everybody just puts up with. And I don't want my 3

year olds learning a bunch of "interesting" new words...

I agree with several others who have posted here that if we say this is

just part of bike racing then we're shirking our responsibility. The

behavior we decide to allow is the behavior we'll get. Frankly, one of

the things I respect about good racers is the amount of influence and

"motivation" they manage to exert without having to resort to profanity

or unsafe behavior. I'd venture to say if you have to fall back on

those, you should keep your mouth shut and get some racing skill that

can speak for you. Otherwise, go home and train more.

My vote: throw the book at 'em, Candi. It's amateur racing, for crying

out loud, and it's PIR, not state championships. Not that there should

be a double standard at any rate, but in my mind it's even more

deplorable that it happens during an event that means so little in the

grand scheme of things.

Rider A and B: grow up!

Mark Greenwood

Candi Murray/Oregon Bicycle Racing Assn wrote:

As I am want to do when I have difficulty in making a decision I am

bring it

to the masses for help.

I have a complaint on my desk, here is the history.

Rider A and Rider B are in a break at PIR. Rider B won't pull (sigh).

Rider A berates rider B, spits in his general direction ;-0. Rider B

responds with profanity, retires from the break and files a complaint.

I

research the complaint find that both rides acted like asses and decide

not

to go farther.

Go ahead 1 week. Rider A seeks Rider B out at PIR and proceeds to dump

heaps of profanity, propositions his mother, questions his masculinity

etc.

Enough so that another rider comes up to Rider A and ask him to lay off.

Rider B files another complaint. I research the complaint, again and

find a

number of other riders who collaborate the story. But I also find many

that

say that this is standard behavior in the Peloton and that Rider B

should

just suck it up.

OBRA rule 13.2 says that riders can be disciplined for Unsportsmanlike

behavior, but is this anything other than the norm?

If so, at what point does the behavior cross the line?

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

Mark Greenwood

2004-08-12

I know there have been a lot of responses on this already, but...

I want these races to be something my wife and kids can come watch. If

my kids decide of their own accord they don't want to become bike

racers, that's fine with me. However, I love the sport and I want it to

be something I can be proud of if they do want to get involved in it. I

don't want the example they see to be a couple of arrogant, egotistical

pro wannabes that everybody just puts up with. And I don't want my 3

year olds learning a bunch of "interesting" new words...

I agree with several others who have posted here that if we say this is

just part of bike racing then we're shirking our responsibility. The

behavior we decide to allow is the behavior we'll get. Frankly, one of

the things I respect about good racers is the amount of influence and

"motivation" they manage to exert without having to resort to profanity

or unsafe behavior. I'd venture to say if you have to fall back on

those, you should keep your mouth shut and get some racing skill that

can speak for you. Otherwise, go home and train more.

My vote: throw the book at 'em, Candi. It's amateur racing, for crying

out loud, and it's PIR, not state championships. Not that there should

be a double standard at any rate, but in my mind it's even more

deplorable that it happens during an event that means so little in the

grand scheme of things.

Rider A and B: grow up!

Mark Greenwood

Candi Murray/Oregon Bicycle Racing Assn wrote:

As I am want to do when I have difficulty in making a decision I am

bring it

to the masses for help.

I have a complaint on my desk, here is the history.

Rider A and Rider B are in a break at PIR. Rider B won't pull (sigh).

Rider A berates rider B, spits in his general direction ;-0. Rider B

responds with profanity, retires from the break and files a complaint.

I

research the complaint find that both rides acted like asses and decide

not

to go farther.

Go ahead 1 week. Rider A seeks Rider B out at PIR and proceeds to dump

heaps of profanity, propositions his mother, questions his masculinity

etc.

Enough so that another rider comes up to Rider A and ask him to lay off.

Rider B files another complaint. I research the complaint, again and

find a

number of other riders who collaborate the story. But I also find many

that

say that this is standard behavior in the Peloton and that Rider B

should

just suck it up.

OBRA rule 13.2 says that riders can be disciplined for Unsportsmanlike

behavior, but is this anything other than the norm?

If so, at what point does the behavior cross the line?

Josh Wiggins

2004-08-12

Um I wonder what rider (A) is thinking if he or she is reading these emails?

This could make for a new tv show "Judge Candi"

:-)

Candi Murray/Oregon Bicycle Racing Assn wrote:

As I am want to do when I have difficulty in making a decision I am bring it

to the masses for help.

I have a complaint on my desk, here is the history.

Rider A and Rider B are in a break at PIR. Rider B won't pull (sigh).

Rider A berates rider B, spits in his general direction ;-0. Rider B

responds with profanity, retires from the break and files a complaint. I

research the complaint find that both rides acted like asses and decide not

to go farther.

Go ahead 1 week. Rider A seeks Rider B out at PIR and proceeds to dump

heaps of profanity, propositions his mother, questions his masculinity etc.

Enough so that another rider comes up to Rider A and ask him to lay off.

Rider B files another complaint. I research the complaint, again and find a

number of other riders who collaborate the story. But I also find many that

say that this is standard behavior in the Peloton and that Rider B should

just suck it up.

OBRA rule 13.2 says that riders can be disciplined for Unsportsmanlike

behavior, but is this anything other than the norm?

If so, at what point does the behavior cross the line?

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

david baker

2004-08-12

Well i am a mountain biker so maybe i do not understand but i do not think

you have to pull. from the way candy describes it rider "a" is an ass. i

would have responded the same way if i was "b".

----- Original Message -----

From: "Candi Murray/Oregon Bicycle Racing Assn" <cmur-@obra.org>

To: "obra" <ob-@topica.com>

Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 12:55 PM

Subject: [OBRA Chat] What is unsportsmanlike behavior?

As I am want to do when I have difficulty in making a decision I am bring

it

to the masses for help.

I have a complaint on my desk, here is the history.

Rider A and Rider B are in a break at PIR. Rider B won't pull (sigh).

Rider A berates rider B, spits in his general direction ;-0. Rider B

responds with profanity, retires from the break and files a complaint. I

research the complaint find that both rides acted like asses and decide

not

to go farther.

Go ahead 1 week. Rider A seeks Rider B out at PIR and proceeds to dump

heaps of profanity, propositions his mother, questions his masculinity

etc.

Enough so that another rider comes up to Rider A and ask him to lay off.

Rider B files another complaint. I research the complaint, again and find

a

number of other riders who collaborate the story. But I also find many

that

say that this is standard behavior in the Peloton and that Rider B should

just suck it up.

OBRA rule 13.2 says that riders can be disciplined for Unsportsmanlike

behavior, but is this anything other than the norm?

If so, at what point does the behavior cross the line?

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

ibi-@comcast.net

2004-08-12

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I know there have been a few other posts on this thread already, but I wanted to add my own two cents.

Rider A should be disciplined for continuing the negativity towards Rider B the following week. As the saying goes: "Leave it on the court". In this case it would be "Leave it on the course". Either way, it should have been a dead subject the following week. If other riders are supporting the allegation that rider A is an ass, then he should be disciplined because he has been doing it for some time and will continue to do it further.

I myself had the experience of chewing someone out at PIR for what I percieved to be reckless riding. I made the effort the following week to not ride near that rider and to use some form of tactics if and when he was riding with me. However, my anger towards him stayed at the track. When I saw him at the Twilight Crit later in the week, we briefly spoke and I apologized for my behavior. Everything was done. I did not continue it. To carry that kind of grudge and verbally berate someone in public after the fact is definitely unsporstmanlike conduct.

Dave

-------------- Original message --------------

As I am want to do when I have difficulty in making a decision I am bring it

to the masses for help.

I have a complaint on my desk, here is the history.

Rider A and Rider B are in a break at PIR. Rider B won't pull (sigh).

Rider A berates rider B, spits in his general direction ;-0. Rider B

responds with profanity, retires from the break and files a complaint. I

research the complaint find that both rides acted like asses and decide not

to go farther.

Go ahead 1 week. Rider A seeks Rider B out at PIR and proceeds to dump

heaps of profanity, propositions his mother, questions his masculinity etc.

Enough so that another rider comes up to Rider A and ask him to lay off.

Rider B files another complaint. I research the complaint, again and find a

number of other riders who collaborate the story. But I also find many that

say that this is standard behavior in the Peloton and that Rider B should

just suck it up.

OBRA rule 13.2 says that riders can be disciplined for Unsportsmanlike

behavior, but is this anything other than the norm?

If so, at what point does the behavior cross the line?

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

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<html><body>

<P>I know there have been a few other posts on this thread already, but I wanted to add my own two cents.</P>

<P>Rider A should be disciplined for continuing the negativity towards Rider B the following week. As the saying goes: "Leave it on the court". In this case it would be "Leave it on the course". Either way, it should have been a dead subject the following week. If other riders are supporting the allegation that rider A is an ass, then he should be disciplined because he has been doing it for some time and will continue to do it further. </P>

<P>I myself had the experience of chewing someone out at PIR for what I percieved to be reckless riding. I made the effort the following week to not ride near that rider and to use some form of tactics if and when he was riding with me. However, my anger towards him stayed at the track. When I saw him at the Twilight Crit later in the week, we briefly spoke and I apologized for my behavior. Everything was done. I did not continue it. To carry that kind of grudge and verbally berate someone in public after the fact is definitely unsporstmanlike conduct.</P>

<P>Dave<BR></P>

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Chris Brandt

2004-08-12

ONLY one race/week probation??? How about a mandatory day spent helping

race officials, or setting up the course marking for cyclocross, or even

re-seeding all the muddy mess we make.

a couple pennies.

Chris

Dave German

2004-08-12

Good response Ivan, I totally agree. Stick to the letter of the law. That

is why it is there.

Dave

From: "Meadors, Ivan C" <Ivan.C.-@intel.com>

Reply-To: Ivan.C.-@intel.com

To: cmur-@obra.org, obra <ob-@topica.com>

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] What is unsportsmanlike behavior?

Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 14:00:32 -0700

Candi (OBRA Official and supreme boss of the Oregon peloton);

Stop the issue before it becomes an accepted characteristic, even if it

is a one-time occurrence. Set the precedent of enforcing OBRA guidelines

for un-sportsmanlike conduct and stick to it. Attacks upon cyclists in

the peloton (such as directing fluids, bodily or otherwise, at another

cyclist) designed to provoke that other cyclist should be considered

totally unacceptable.

With the second incident being a deliberate, premeditated occurrence, it

seems that the situation has been intentionally escalated by Rider A.

"Rider A seeks Rider B out at PIR and proceeds to dump

heaps of profanity, propositions his mother, questions his masculinity

etc."

That should be considered unacceptable behavior by Rider A.

I have been racing for several years and it is rare that I have I seen

these occurrences (spitting, punching, pushing), thus I would be

reluctant to say that "they are the norm" and would suggest that they

are NOT acceptable.

If a rider is not pulling in a break, just drop them ...

If a rider is a danger to others, let that rider know and then drop them

...

If two riders are attacking (physically) one another, let them take it

to

court, but in the meantime, just drop them ...

-----Original Message-----

From: Candi Murray/Oregon Bicycle Racing Assn [mailto:cmur-@obra.org]

Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 12:56 PM

To: obra

Subject: [OBRA Chat] What is unsportsmanlike behavior?

As I am want to do when I have difficulty in making a decision I am

bring it

to the masses for help.

I have a complaint on my desk, here is the history.

Rider A and Rider B are in a break at PIR. Rider B won't pull (sigh).

Rider A berates rider B, spits in his general direction ;-0. Rider B

responds with profanity, retires from the break and files a complaint.

I

research the complaint find that both rides acted like asses and decide

not

to go farther.

Go ahead 1 week. Rider A seeks Rider B out at PIR and proceeds to dump

heaps of profanity, propositions his mother, questions his masculinity

etc.

Enough so that another rider comes up to Rider A and ask him to lay off.

Rider B files another complaint. I research the complaint, again and

find a

number of other riders who collaborate the story. But I also find many

that

say that this is standard behavior in the Peloton and that Rider B

should

just suck it up.

OBRA rule 13.2 says that riders can be disciplined for Unsportsmanlike

behavior, but is this anything other than the norm?

If so, at what point does the behavior cross the line?

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

_________________________________________________________________

Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!

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Meadors, Ivan C

2004-08-12

Candi (OBRA Official and supreme boss of the Oregon peloton);

Stop the issue before it becomes an accepted characteristic, even if it

is a one-time occurrence. Set the precedent of enforcing OBRA guidelines

for un-sportsmanlike conduct and stick to it. Attacks upon cyclists in

the peloton (such as directing fluids, bodily or otherwise, at another

cyclist) designed to provoke that other cyclist should be considered

totally unacceptable.

With the second incident being a deliberate, premeditated occurrence, it

seems that the situation has been intentionally escalated by Rider A.

"Rider A seeks Rider B out at PIR and proceeds to dump

heaps of profanity, propositions his mother, questions his masculinity

etc."

That should be considered unacceptable behavior by Rider A.

I have been racing for several years and it is rare that I have I seen

these occurrences (spitting, punching, pushing), thus I would be

reluctant to say that "they are the norm" and would suggest that they

are NOT acceptable.

If a rider is not pulling in a break, just drop them ...

If a rider is a danger to others, let that rider know and then drop them

...

If two riders are attacking (physically) one another, let them take it

to

court, but in the meantime, just drop them ...

-----Original Message-----

From: Candi Murray/Oregon Bicycle Racing Assn [mailto:cmur-@obra.org]

Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 12:56 PM

To: obra

Subject: [OBRA Chat] What is unsportsmanlike behavior?

As I am want to do when I have difficulty in making a decision I am

bring it

to the masses for help.

I have a complaint on my desk, here is the history.

Rider A and Rider B are in a break at PIR. Rider B won't pull (sigh).

Rider A berates rider B, spits in his general direction ;-0. Rider B

responds with profanity, retires from the break and files a complaint.

I

research the complaint find that both rides acted like asses and decide

not

to go farther.

Go ahead 1 week. Rider A seeks Rider B out at PIR and proceeds to dump

heaps of profanity, propositions his mother, questions his masculinity

etc.

Enough so that another rider comes up to Rider A and ask him to lay off.

Rider B files another complaint. I research the complaint, again and

find a

number of other riders who collaborate the story. But I also find many

that

say that this is standard behavior in the Peloton and that Rider B

should

just suck it up.

OBRA rule 13.2 says that riders can be disciplined for Unsportsmanlike

behavior, but is this anything other than the norm?

If so, at what point does the behavior cross the line?

Matthew Wolpert

2004-08-12

True, Simeoni didn't file a complaint, but did you notice that the

Italian Government said it was going to investigate Lance for

"intimidation of a witness"? I'm not sure where that went, but my

point is that while "B" may be acting wimpy by filing a complaint,

based on the information in the original email question put to "OBRA

Chat", it reads to me that "A" is being overly aggressive.

Does "B" not even have a right to file a complaint? I propose that he

does and that it is not appropriate for "A" to approach "B" and

essentially threaten him over it. If they were both part of the

problem in week #2, then they might both deserve modest censure.

Understand that I have no details other than what I've read from this

list, but it seems like others are suggesting that "B" is part of the

problem by being aggressive. If "B" was aggressive one week later,

which is not what the email said, then they are both deserving of a 1

week suspension. But if "B" was minding his own business and "A" took

it upon himself to threaten "B", then it seems like "A" is very close

to behaving in an "unsportsmanship" like manner, and likely the only

one deserving of censure.

(Opinions expressed above are those of me and not of anyone who is on

my team, knows me, once gave me a ride to a race, or anyone else )

:)

Matthew

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 13:37:27 -0700, Mike Murray <mike.m-@obra.org> wrote:

Collis, Randall (EUGENE OE 322) [mailto:randall-@ml.com]:

"You dont see Simeioni filing a complaint against Lance for bullying

tactics."

Although I doubt that Simeoni did file a complaint with officials (after all

no racing rules were broken) he certainly did do a lot of complaining to the

media.

Mike Murray

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

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Woodcock, Thomas C

2004-08-12

From cycling news:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/jul04/jul28news

Italian police question Simeoni

Filippo Simeoni yesterday spent three hours in the company of

investigators from the Italian drug squad answering questions about the

incident in stage 18 of the Tour de France in which Lance Armstrong

chased down an attack by Simeoni.

According to a report from AFP, the investigators are considering

bringing charges against Armstrong for sporting fraud, violence, and

intimidation of a witness.

Simeoni gave evidence in 2002 in the investigation and trial of Italian

sports doctor Michele Ferrari, after himself being questioned by the

Italian drug squad in 1999 after raids found substances in the houses of

several Italian riders. After initially saying he had obtained "other

medications" in Switzerland, Simeoni later claimed Ferrari had

prescribed him EPO.

In an interview with Le Monde in April 2003, Lance Armstrong, who has

consulted with Dr Ferrari, accused Simeoni of lying. Simeoni

subsequently said he had initiated legal action for defamation against

Armstrong.

In stage 18 of this year's Tour de France, Simeoni bridged across to the

early break (which subsequently stayed away and contained the stage

winner) but was chased down by Armstrong. When the other riders in the

break asked Armstrong to return to the peleton so that they'd have a

chance of staying away, he said he would only do so if Simeoni returned

to the peleton as well. Both riders dropped back to the main bunch.

-----Original Message-----

From: Mike Murray [mailto:mike.m-@obra.org]

Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 1:37 PM

To: obra

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] What is unsportsmanlike behavior?

Collis, Randall (EUGENE OE 322) [mailto:randall-@ml.com]:

"You dont see Simeioni filing a complaint against Lance for bullying

tactics."

Although I doubt that Simeoni did file a complaint with officials (after

all

no racing rules were broken) he certainly did do a lot of complaining to

the

media.

Mike Murray

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

Mike Murray

2004-08-12

Collis, Randall (EUGENE OE 322) [mailto:randall-@ml.com]:

"You dont see Simeioni filing a complaint against Lance for bullying

tactics."

Although I doubt that Simeoni did file a complaint with officials (after all

no racing rules were broken) he certainly did do a lot of complaining to the

media.

Mike Murray

Randy Dreiling

2004-08-12

99.9% of racers are cool, but the ones that are out of

line CAN BE way out of line and should be dealt

with...I feel Candi/Mike and OBRA will handle this in

a professional manner.

Randy

--- Candi Murray/Oregon Bicycle Racing Assn

<cmur-@obra.org> wrote:

As I am want to do when I have difficulty in making

a decision I am bring it

to the masses for help.

I have a complaint on my desk, here is the history.

Rider A and Rider B are in a break at PIR. Rider B

won't pull (sigh).

Rider A berates rider B, spits in his general

direction ;-0. Rider B

responds with profanity, retires from the break and

files a complaint. I

research the complaint find that both rides acted

like asses and decide not

to go farther.

Go ahead 1 week. Rider A seeks Rider B out at PIR

and proceeds to dump

heaps of profanity, propositions his mother,

questions his masculinity etc.

Enough so that another rider comes up to Rider A and

ask him to lay off.

Rider B files another complaint. I research the

complaint, again and find a

number of other riders who collaborate the story.

But I also find many that

say that this is standard behavior in the Peloton

and that Rider B should

just suck it up.

OBRA rule 13.2 says that riders can be disciplined

for Unsportsmanlike

behavior, but is this anything other than the norm?

If so, at what point does the behavior cross the

line?

To respond to the whole group send to

ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to

cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

__________________________________

Do you Yahoo!?

Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!

http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

Steve-@clark.wa.gov

2004-08-12

There may be a lot of spitting and nose blowing in the peleton, but I have

not seen anyone do this in anybody's general direction with malicious

intent. Nose blowing happens a lot while the weather is cooler but that's

just the way it is. I even spit on a rider one time, but I didn't do it with

malice. I took a swig of my drink and the nipple was full of road grim so I

spit that mouthfull out and it happened that another rider was coming by

when I did it. I didn't do that with an intent to proposition his mother. It

was just a mistake.

-----Original Message-----

From: Collis, Randall (EUGENE OE 322) [mailto:randall-@ml.com]

Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 1:28 PM

To: obra

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] What is unsportsmanlike behavior?

Rider B knew that his lack of assist in the break would lead to hard

feelings and possible reprecussions in the peleton. Quite frankly there is a

lot of spitting and nose blowing that goes on, sometimes you actually get

hit. The fact that a complaint was filed by B is wimpy. I am sure B told A

he was filing a complaint which led to the poor behavior a week later on A's

part. Never the less it sounds like the peleton told A to knock it off.

Unless A phyisically threatens B, B should just suck it up and be the bigger

man. You dont see Simeioni filing a complaint against Lance for bullying

tactics.

-----Original Message-----

From: Woodcock, Thomas C [mailto:thomas.c.-@intel.com]

Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 1:23 PM

To: cmur-@obra.org; obra

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] What is unsportsmanlike behavior?

1. There seems like there may be a safety issue here; true, there are often

disputes during racing, but if a rider is "seeking" out another rider during

a race, this puts the whole peleton at risk as it is obvious that these

folks are not completely paying attention to racing. 2. Ambassadors of the

sport - there are kids, wives, other family that come to PIR to cheer on

racers and have a god time, if they have to cover there ears because of this

type of language and witness spitting, then these riders are hurting

everyone in the sport. Think of the potential racer that came out to watch

and see what racing is all about and saw two riders cursing and spitting at

each other...guess what, scratch one potential bike racer.

Similar to other sports, this type of conduct would result in a suspension

(or maybe in terms that these folks can understand, a "time-out"). I feel

like at least a week suspension from any OBRA event would be sufficient.

The tough call is do both A and B get the suspension, or just A as I feel

that rider A is more at fault for escalating the issue to a physical one

with the spitting, and the seeking out of the other ride at subsequent

races.

my 2 cents.

-----Original Message-----

From: Candi Murray/Oregon Bicycle Racing Assn [mailto:cmur-@obra.org]

Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 12:56 PM

To: obra

Subject: [OBRA Chat] What is unsportsmanlike behavior?

As I am want to do when I have difficulty in making a decision I am bring it

to the masses for help. I have a complaint on my desk, here is the history.

Rider A and Rider B are in a break at PIR. Rider B won't pull (sigh). Rider

A berates rider B, spits in his general direction ;-0. Rider B responds with

profanity, retires from the break and files a complaint. I research the

complaint find that both rides acted like asses and decide not to go

farther.

Go ahead 1 week. Rider A seeks Rider B out at PIR and proceeds to dump

heaps of profanity, propositions his mother, questions his masculinity etc.

Enough so that another rider comes up to Rider A and ask him to lay off.

Rider B files another complaint. I research the complaint, again and find a

number of other riders who collaborate the story. But I also find many that

say that this is standard behavior in the Peloton and that Rider B should

just suck it up.

OBRA rule 13.2 says that riders can be disciplined for Unsportsmanlike

behavior, but is this anything other than the norm?

If so, at what point does the behavior cross the line?

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

--------------------------------------------------------

Disclaimer:

CAUTION: electronic mail sent through the internet is not secure and could

be intercepted by a third party. For your protection, avoid sending

identifying information, such as account, Social Security, or card numbers

to us or others. Further, do not send time-sensitive, action-oriented

messages, such as transaction orders, fund transfer instructions, or check

stop payments, as it is our policy not to accept such items electronically.

If you are not an intended recipient of this e-mail, please notify the

sender, delete it and do not read, act upon, print, disclose, copy, retain

or redistribute it. Click here for important additional terms relating to

this e-mail. http://www.ml.com/email_terms/

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snjr

2004-08-12

In an attempt to be fair, I have been relegated for un-sportsman like

conduct before. That said, I would suspend them both for one race. The

cursing is one thing, kind of like a misdemeanor, however, if the riders

carried the issue over to the next race it has escalated to the point where

people are going to get hurt visa a vi aggressive riding etc.

I think the sportsmanship rules contribute to the safety of our sport and

should be taken relatively serious. Relegating the riders in a training

race is meaningless, however, not being allowed to race has a bigger impact.

Collis, Randall (EUGENE OE 322)

2004-08-12

Rider B knew that his lack of assist in the break would lead to hard feelings and possible reprecussions in the peleton. Quite frankly there is a lot of spitting and nose blowing that goes on, sometimes you actually get hit. The fact that a complaint was filed by B is wimpy. I am sure B told A he was filing a complaint which led to the poor behavior a week later on A's part. Never the less it sounds like the peleton told A to knock it off. Unless A phyisically threatens B, B should just suck it up and be the bigger man. You dont see Simeioni filing a complaint against Lance for bullying tactics.

-----Original Message-----

From: Woodcock, Thomas C [mailto:thomas.c.-@intel.com]

Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 1:23 PM

To: cmur-@obra.org; obra

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] What is unsportsmanlike behavior?

1. There seems like there may be a safety issue here; true, there are

often disputes during racing, but if a rider is "seeking" out another

rider during a race, this puts the whole peleton at risk as it is

obvious that these folks are not completely paying attention to racing.

2. Ambassadors of the sport - there are kids, wives, other family that

come to PIR to cheer on racers and have a god time, if they have to

cover there ears because of this type of language and witness spitting,

then these riders are hurting everyone in the sport. Think of the

potential racer that came out to watch and see what racing is all about

and saw two riders cursing and spitting at each other...guess what,

scratch one potential bike racer.

Similar to other sports, this type of conduct would result in a

suspension (or maybe in terms that these folks can understand, a

"time-out"). I feel like at least a week suspension from any OBRA event

would be sufficient. The tough call is do both A and B get the

suspension, or just A as I feel that rider A is more at fault for

escalating the issue to a physical one with the spitting, and the

seeking out of the other ride at subsequent races.

my 2 cents.

-----Original Message-----

From: Candi Murray/Oregon Bicycle Racing Assn [mailto:cmur-@obra.org]

Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 12:56 PM

To: obra

Subject: [OBRA Chat] What is unsportsmanlike behavior?

As I am want to do when I have difficulty in making a decision I am

bring it

to the masses for help.

I have a complaint on my desk, here is the history.

Rider A and Rider B are in a break at PIR. Rider B won't pull (sigh).

Rider A berates rider B, spits in his general direction ;-0. Rider B

responds with profanity, retires from the break and files a complaint.

I

research the complaint find that both rides acted like asses and decide

not

to go farther.

Go ahead 1 week. Rider A seeks Rider B out at PIR and proceeds to dump

heaps of profanity, propositions his mother, questions his masculinity

etc.

Enough so that another rider comes up to Rider A and ask him to lay off.

Rider B files another complaint. I research the complaint, again and

find a

number of other riders who collaborate the story. But I also find many

that

say that this is standard behavior in the Peloton and that Rider B

should

just suck it up.

OBRA rule 13.2 says that riders can be disciplined for Unsportsmanlike

behavior, but is this anything other than the norm?

If so, at what point does the behavior cross the line?

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

--------------------------------------------------------

Disclaimer:

CAUTION: electronic mail sent through the internet is not secure and could be intercepted by a third party. For your protection, avoid sending identifying information, such as account, Social Security, or card numbers to us or others. Further, do not send time-sensitive, action-oriented messages, such as transaction orders, fund transfer instructions, or check stop payments, as it is our policy not to accept such items electronically.

If you are not an intended recipient of this e-mail, please notify the sender, delete it and do not read, act upon, print, disclose, copy, retain or redistribute it. Click here for important additional terms relating to this e-mail. http://www.ml.com/email_terms/

--------------------------------------------------------

Woodcock, Thomas C

2004-08-12

1. There seems like there may be a safety issue here; true, there are

often disputes during racing, but if a rider is "seeking" out another

rider during a race, this puts the whole peleton at risk as it is

obvious that these folks are not completely paying attention to racing.

2. Ambassadors of the sport - there are kids, wives, other family that

come to PIR to cheer on racers and have a god time, if they have to

cover there ears because of this type of language and witness spitting,

then these riders are hurting everyone in the sport. Think of the

potential racer that came out to watch and see what racing is all about

and saw two riders cursing and spitting at each other...guess what,

scratch one potential bike racer.

Similar to other sports, this type of conduct would result in a

suspension (or maybe in terms that these folks can understand, a

"time-out"). I feel like at least a week suspension from any OBRA event

would be sufficient. The tough call is do both A and B get the

suspension, or just A as I feel that rider A is more at fault for

escalating the issue to a physical one with the spitting, and the

seeking out of the other ride at subsequent races.

my 2 cents.

-----Original Message-----

From: Candi Murray/Oregon Bicycle Racing Assn [mailto:cmur-@obra.org]

Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 12:56 PM

To: obra

Subject: [OBRA Chat] What is unsportsmanlike behavior?

As I am want to do when I have difficulty in making a decision I am

bring it

to the masses for help.

I have a complaint on my desk, here is the history.

Rider A and Rider B are in a break at PIR. Rider B won't pull (sigh).

Rider A berates rider B, spits in his general direction ;-0. Rider B

responds with profanity, retires from the break and files a complaint.

I

research the complaint find that both rides acted like asses and decide

not

to go farther.

Go ahead 1 week. Rider A seeks Rider B out at PIR and proceeds to dump

heaps of profanity, propositions his mother, questions his masculinity

etc.

Enough so that another rider comes up to Rider A and ask him to lay off.

Rider B files another complaint. I research the complaint, again and

find a

number of other riders who collaborate the story. But I also find many

that

say that this is standard behavior in the Peloton and that Rider B

should

just suck it up.

OBRA rule 13.2 says that riders can be disciplined for Unsportsmanlike

behavior, but is this anything other than the norm?

If so, at what point does the behavior cross the line?

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

Peter Murphy

2004-08-12

How about putting both of them on probation, witrh the caveat that further

confrontations will result in disciplinary action.

As one who is known to spout out profanities during a race situation or on

the track (language warning at the track championships), I am aware of the

consequences of my actions and although I wouldn't like it (I doubt my

teammates would have been too happy), it would not have been a surprise if I

(my team) was DQ'ed.

There must be consequences for the behavior especially since it is spanning

longer than a race...One day it spitting, the next it is mother insults.

What's next? Running the guy into the concrete barrier on the back stretch.

Pete Murphy

?Be the change you wish to see in the world? ---Mahatma Ghandi

From: Candi Murray/Oregon Bicycle Racing Assn <cmur-@obra.org>

Reply-To: cmur-@obra.org

To: obra <ob-@topica.com>

Subject: [OBRA Chat] What is unsportsmanlike behavior?

Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 12:55:59 -0700

As I am want to do when I have difficulty in making a decision I am bring

it

to the masses for help.

I have a complaint on my desk, here is the history.

Rider A and Rider B are in a break at PIR. Rider B won't pull (sigh).

Rider A berates rider B, spits in his general direction ;-0. Rider B

responds with profanity, retires from the break and files a complaint. I

research the complaint find that both rides acted like asses and decide not

to go farther.

Go ahead 1 week. Rider A seeks Rider B out at PIR and proceeds to dump

heaps of profanity, propositions his mother, questions his masculinity etc.

Enough so that another rider comes up to Rider A and ask him to lay off.

Rider B files another complaint. I research the complaint, again and find

a

number of other riders who collaborate the story. But I also find many

that

say that this is standard behavior in the Peloton and that Rider B should

just suck it up.

OBRA rule 13.2 says that riders can be disciplined for Unsportsmanlike

behavior, but is this anything other than the norm?

If so, at what point does the behavior cross the line?

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

Candi Murray/Oregon Bicycle Racing Assn

2004-08-12

As I am want to do when I have difficulty in making a decision I am bring it

to the masses for help.

I have a complaint on my desk, here is the history.

Rider A and Rider B are in a break at PIR. Rider B won't pull (sigh).

Rider A berates rider B, spits in his general direction ;-0. Rider B

responds with profanity, retires from the break and files a complaint. I

research the complaint find that both rides acted like asses and decide not

to go farther.

Go ahead 1 week. Rider A seeks Rider B out at PIR and proceeds to dump

heaps of profanity, propositions his mother, questions his masculinity etc.

Enough so that another rider comes up to Rider A and ask him to lay off.

Rider B files another complaint. I research the complaint, again and find a

number of other riders who collaborate the story. But I also find many that

say that this is standard behavior in the Peloton and that Rider B should

just suck it up.

OBRA rule 13.2 says that riders can be disciplined for Unsportsmanlike

behavior, but is this anything other than the norm?

If so, at what point does the behavior cross the line?